Zero.3871 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > Numbers-wise Necro might have 40k HP (Account for Shroud) but even a Weaver/Core ele has more effective HP due to Protection/Regen/Vigor boons coupled with Evades, Invulns, and instant cast teleports. While i dont believe Ele to be "op" its not hard by playing both classes to see which one actually can take more punishment as well as survive long enough to disengage. Not that necro could ever disengage to being with :'( > > > > Dont get me started on SB/Core Warriors. > You can't compare the shroud mechanic to a simple health pool. > > (+) Necro has 50% damage reduction in shroud. > (-) Shroud is degenerating. > (+) It can be filled up easiser than healing up. > (-) It is locked behind a 10s cooldown. > > In smallscale it grants good sustain. In large scale it falls behind if looked at isolated and compared to a block. But it is even superior to a block, when the block is penetrated with an unblockable attack (which happens frequently in large scale). > > It's just different. > > Fighting a mender sword weaver on a berserk reaper is a pretty even matchup. I don't see a balancing issue here. > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > It would be awesome to get pulsing stab from rs3 back. I mean. Warrior has pulsing stab as well. > No, I don't want to get chain feared from other reapers or applied multiple torments/cripples from scourges. Warrior is a different story. It has tons of cover boons and even resistance to negate the fear. But a warrior is also more vulnerable to scourges because of all the boons. A scourge can't deal as much damage to a power reaper as to other classes, because reaper is lacking boons to convert. > > One big stack of stability is also better for the Blighter's Boon synergy as it grants an instant heal. > -where does necros have 50% dmg reduction while in shroud? -and shroud can fill up easier than healing? its obvious you NEVER saw a weaver healing from 10% to fullife every 5 seconds or a full Minstrel FB that can get 10k dmg in 2 seconds while healing from 10 % to fullife in that time... also shroud is NOT superior to a block because blocks are negating whole attacks, not just the dmg. that means it can block stunns (than it is like stability) it can block condi and power attacks and reduce dmg to 0. a 3 second block from warrior Shield can negate Unlimited dmg while its up, while necro shroud already imploded if just 2 enemies are spiking you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Zero.3871" said: > -where does necros have 50% dmg reduction while in shroud? It's been like that since years, you know? > -and shroud can fill up easier than healing? its obvious you NEVER saw a weaver healing from 10% to fullife every 5 seconds or a full Minstrel FB that can get 10k dmg in 2 seconds while healing from 10 % to fullife in that time... > It depend a lot of how and where you play, but, as an example, your LF bar fill very quickly in zergs, allowing you to use shroud at 100% LF on cool down (10s CD). If you add to that a clever use of _spectral armor_ you can see quite a lot of LF sustain. > also shroud is NOT superior to a block because blocks are negating whole attacks, not just the dmg. that means it can block stunns (than it is like stability) it can block condi and power attacks and reduce dmg to 0. a 3 second block from warrior Shield can negate Unlimited dmg while its up, while necro shroud already imploded if just 2 enemies are spiking you... Agree to that, block is, in essence, vastly superior to the shroud. Block stop a boundless amount of damage as well as all effect that proc with those damages while the shroud don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > -where does necros have 50% dmg reduction while in shroud? > > It's been like that since years, you know? > absolutely not. you get the same dmg in shroud like outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > _While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. Direct damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%, but this damage reduction isn't reflected in the combat log. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second._ It's also been tested and proven that it's also true for condition damage even if it's not written in the wiki. Thought, barrier don't have this damage resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > _While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. Direct damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%, but this damage reduction isn't reflected in the combat log. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second._ > > It's also been tested and proven that it's also true for condition damage even if it's not written in the wiki. > > Thought, barrier don't have this damage resistance. When i last tested it, like 2 or 3 patches ago. Dmg reduction wasn't working. Don't know how it is right now. Maybe we have to check again Yesterday i got hit by some warrior skill while in shroud, 7k hit. So without this would have been 14k? Don't think so. Or this would be super op. Gravedigger like dmg without the 3billion years casttime and obviously tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > _While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. Direct damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%, but this damage reduction isn't reflected in the combat log. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second._ > > > > It's also been tested and proven that it's also true for condition damage even if it's not written in the wiki. > > > > Thought, barrier don't have this damage resistance. > > When i last tested it, like 2 or 3 patches ago. Dmg reduction wasn't working. > > Don't know how it is right now. > > Maybe we have to check again > > Yesterday i got hit by some warrior skill while in shroud, > 7k hit. > So without this would have been 14k? Don't think so. Or this would be super op. > Gravedigger like dmg without the 3billion years casttime and obviously tell Don't forget, the damage reduction don't appear on the log. And a warrior dealing 14k is quite possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > If only there was a trait which removed conditions while entering shroud and continuously did so every few seconds while staying in shroud. > > > > Oh wait! There is! > > > > > > Yay let's take complete useless death magic traitline Core specializations are pretty simple: 1 for more bursty damage, 1 for more sustained damage, 1 for more suvivavility, 1 for more party support, and 1 to improve profession mechanics. Death magic is about surviving more. Bringing it to gain more survivability makes sense. What doesn't make sense is builds that have both tons of damage a lot of survivability without bringing the defense specialization and tanky stats and upgrades. Those should simply not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > Core specializations are pretty simple: 1 for more bursty damage, 1 for more sustained damage, 1 for more suvivavility, 1 for more party support, and 1 to improve profession mechanics. > > Death magic is about surviving more. Bringing it to gain more survivability makes sense. What doesn't make sense is builds that have both tons of damage a lot of survivability without bringing the defense specialization and tanky stats and upgrades. Those should simply not exist. > > You'd be right in any other game, unfortunately this is GW2 and GW2 active defense are always vastly superior to passive defense and DM only add passive damage reduction as a defensive traitline to a profession that have close to no active defense. The point is that for both survivability and support Blood magic is vastly superior to Death magic. This give Death magic little to no meaning for the necromancer. And this is why Nimon say that it's an useless traitline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > If only there was a trait which removed conditions while entering shroud and continuously did so every few seconds while staying in shroud. > > > > > > Oh wait! There is! > > > > > > > > > > Yay let's take complete useless death magic traitline > > Core specializations are pretty simple: 1 for more bursty damage, 1 for more sustained damage, 1 for more suvivavility, 1 for more party support, and 1 to improve profession mechanics. > > Death magic is about surviving more. Bringing it to gain more survivability makes sense. What doesn't make sense is builds that have both tons of damage a lot of survivability without bringing the defense specialization and tanky stats and upgrades. Those should simply not exist. > > Too many things are bound to shroud. Especially the conflict between "Improve Profession mechanic" and "Surviveability" is basicly the same thing for core necromancer. But i agree to 100% with you, such builds, such skills, should not exist. Endure pain should not exist. Skills that do too many things with a different purpose at once should not exist. A stun should be a stun, a block should be a block, damage should be damage and mobility should be mobility. At the current balance things like Warrior GS 3 should not exist. Revenant Sword 3 and staff 5 should not exist. Pistol Whip should not exist. The entire Hammer weapon skills for warrior should not exist. Mesmer sword 2 should be deleted from existance. Also the layers of defense and sustain should be reworked, look at thief for example: stealth, dodges, and massive mobility. With especs also interrupts, blocks, and more dodges or more range. The entire concept of balance is broken in that regard. Why does a warrior, with several full immunity skills and means to block / negate damage for periods of time ans with great access to stability, get so much passive healing? And a necromancer on the other hand, gets all the effects that only benefits the sustain while hitting enemies - is still weaker in optimal scenarios - and doenst have the tools to reliably keep the sustain up? Further down the line they should also tie the endurance regeneration to the armor class - Light Armor needs 9 seconds to build one dodge - Medium Armor needs 11 seconds - Heavy Armor needs 13 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > _While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. Direct damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%, but this damage reduction isn't reflected in the combat log. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second._ > > > > It's also been tested and proven that it's also true for condition damage even if it's not written in the wiki. > > > > Thought, barrier don't have this damage resistance. > > When i last tested it, like 2 or 3 patches ago. Dmg reduction wasn't working. > > Don't know how it is right now. > > Maybe we have to check again > > Yesterday i got hit by some warrior skill while in shroud, > 7k hit. > So without this would have been 14k? Don't think so. Or this would be super op. > Gravedigger like dmg without the 3billion years casttime and obviously tell What you don't see when looking at the combat log is that the 7k hit from the Warrior only drained 3.5k life force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > > > _While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. Direct damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%, but this damage reduction isn't reflected in the combat log. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second._ > > > > > > It's also been tested and proven that it's also true for condition damage even if it's not written in the wiki. > > > > > > Thought, barrier don't have this damage resistance. > > > > When i last tested it, like 2 or 3 patches ago. Dmg reduction wasn't working. > > > > Don't know how it is right now. > > > > Maybe we have to check again > > > > Yesterday i got hit by some warrior skill while in shroud, > > 7k hit. > > So without this would have been 14k? Don't think so. Or this would be super op. > > Gravedigger like dmg without the 3billion years casttime and obviously tell > > What you don't see when looking at the combat log is that the 7k hit from the Warrior only drained 3.5k life force. but when i am Fighting other necros i get the same dmg numbers when they are in shroud like they are outside shroud. it dont feel like they have dmg reduction. i think this dmg reduction isnt working atm. EDIT: mindblowing: tested it in pvp Lobby and it seems really working. funny, i never realized in 6 years that effect. Maybe cause my shroud so often imploded in seconds…<.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Im going to make this as short and concise as i possibly can. **1. Shroud Dmg Reduction** - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud - Wiki states the 50% dmg reduction is **_NOT_** reflected in the combat log. I haven't personally tested this but in theory it should work like this. * You get hit for 5k* * Combat log says 5k * Enemy Player Sees 5k Dmg Numbers * You only lose 2.5k Shroud. **2. Reaper Design** - Too put in plainly Reapers problem is being 1-dimensional. Necromancer Core and Reaper both suffer from this. Damage is too Front-Loaded to allow of anything else simply because of possibly Damage. * Gravedigger/Soul Spiral/Death Spiral/Executioners Scythe - They are all 1-dimensional and slow. Lack of Variation, Application, and Reliability is the core of the problem. Gravedigger being the prime example. _"But its good down-cleave"_ No. It's only usable as down-cleave. Pistol Whip is good downcleave, does that mean its only good there? Blurred Frenzy is good down-cleave (**it also scales better and has higher base damage then Gravedigger**) but is it only useful as downcleave? I could go on with examples from every profession. **3. Utilities pale in comparison to other professions Utilities.** - Spectral Armor, Summon Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Consume Conditions, Shouts as a Whole within Reaper. * Spectral Armor vs Armor of Earth (If i compared this **Primordial Stance **or **Stone Resonance** it'd be even more 1sided so i chose something relatively similar) **Spectral Armor** - 8sec of Protection, LF Gen on Damage Taken, Breaks Stun. 40Sec CD **Armor Of Earth** - 6sec of Protection, 6sec of 10stack Stability, (Traited) 6sec Vigor, 6sec of Regen, Breaks Stun, Safe Stomp. 50sec CD (40sec CD Traited) * Summon Flesh Wurm vs Lightning Flash/Judge's Intervention/Blink/Shadowstep. I really feel this doesn't need a long explanation. I left out a lot of other abilities and simply compared Utilities. I could go on with Weapon skills included. The only thing im going to say is 1.5sec Cast Time + Telegraphing of Location. * Shouts - Show me another profession with shouts that even has cast times on their primary utilities (Not healing/Elite Skills). I'll wait. I'll save you the trouble. Tempest with 0.25sec Cast. Don't get me started on what they actually do compared to ours. **TLDR**: Reaper/Core Necro Skills are 1-dimensional, slow, non-versatile, lack reliability. Coupled all into a melee spec. Our front-loaded damage is the excuse the Balancing Team has to say we should lack those tools. Theres a reason the "Focus the Necro" trend spawned is because, despite our "Massive HP Pool + Shourdz omg :#', we drop the fastest out of any profession (Excluding Scourge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Im going to make this as short and concise as i possibly can. > > **1. Shroud Dmg Reduction** - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud - Wiki states the 50% dmg reduction is **_NOT_** reflected in the combat log. I haven't personally tested this but in theory it should work like this. > > * You get hit for 5k* > * Combat log says 5k > * Enemy Player Sees 5k Dmg Numbers > * You only lose 2.5k Shroud. Not really. Sometimes dmg reduction doesn't twork correctly. Can't say what triggers the infunctionality. Because if i go shroud with full lf, and a ranger pewpew me and i drop out of shroud, it's definetly not working. Sure there are ranger builds that pewpew you for 32-36kdmg But if they do so, they have like nothing else to run away anymore. And not everyone knows these builds. So i have to assume the dmg reduction isn't working. > > **2. Reaper Design** - Too put in plainly Reapers problem is being 1-dimensional. Necromancer Core and Reaper both suffer from this. Damage is too Front-Loaded to allow of anything else simply because of possibly Damage. > > * Gravedigger/Soul Spiral/Death Spiral/Executioners Scythe - They are all 1-dimensional and slow. Lack of Variation, Application, and Reliability is the core of the problem. Gravedigger being the prime example. _"But its good down-cleave"_ No. It's only usable as down-cleave. Pistol Whip is good downcleave, does that mean its only good there? Blurred Frenzy is good down-cleave (**it also scales better and has higher base damage then Gravedigger**) but is it only useful as downcleave? I could go on with examples from every profession. > > **3. Utilities pale in comparison to other professions Utilities.** - Spectral Armor, Summon Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Consume Conditions, Shouts as a Whole within Reaper. > > * Spectral Armor vs Armor of Earth (If i compared this **Primordial Stance **or **Stone Resonance** it'd be even more 1sided so i chose something relatively similar) > **Spectral Armor** - 8sec of Protection, LF Gen on Damage Taken, Breaks Stun. 40Sec CD > **Armor Of Earth** - 6sec of Protection, 6sec of 10stack Stability, (Traited) 6sec Vigor, 6sec of Regen, Breaks Stun, Safe Stomp. 50sec CD (40sec CD Traited) > > * Summon Flesh Wurm vs Lightning Flash/Judge's Intervention/Blink/Shadowstep. > I really feel this doesn't need a long explanation. I left out a lot of other abilities and simply compared Utilities. I could go on with Weapon skills included. The only thing im going to say is 1.5sec Cast Time + Telegraphing of Location. > > * Shouts - Show me another profession with shouts that even has cast times on their primary utilities (Not healing/Elite Skills). I'll wait. I'll save you the trouble. Tempest with 0.25sec Cast. Don't get me started on what they actually do compared to ours. > > **TLDR**: Reaper/Core Necro Skills are 1-dimensional, slow, non-versatile, lack reliability. Coupled all into a melee spec. Our front-loaded damage is the excuse the Balancing Team has to say we should lack those tools. Theres a reason the "Focus the Necro" trend spawned is because, despite our "Massive HP Pool + Shourdz omg :#', we drop the fastest out of any profession (Excluding Scourge). > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Im going to make this as short and concise as i possibly can. > > **1. Shroud Dmg Reduction** - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud - Wiki states the 50% dmg reduction is **_NOT_** reflected in the combat log. I haven't personally tested this but in theory it should work like this. > > * You get hit for 5k* > * Combat log says 5k > * Enemy Player Sees 5k Dmg Numbers > * You only lose 2.5k Shroud. > > **2. Reaper Design** - Too put in plainly Reapers problem is being 1-dimensional. Necromancer Core and Reaper both suffer from this. Damage is too Front-Loaded to allow of anything else simply because of possibly Damage. > > * Gravedigger/Soul Spiral/Death Spiral/Executioners Scythe - They are all 1-dimensional and slow. Lack of Variation, Application, and Reliability is the core of the problem. Gravedigger being the prime example. _"But its good down-cleave"_ No. It's only usable as down-cleave. Pistol Whip is good downcleave, does that mean its only good there? Blurred Frenzy is good down-cleave (**it also scales better and has higher base damage then Gravedigger**) but is it only useful as downcleave? I could go on with examples from every profession. > > **3. Utilities pale in comparison to other professions Utilities.** - Spectral Armor, Summon Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Consume Conditions, Shouts as a Whole within Reaper. > > * Spectral Armor vs Armor of Earth (If i compared this **Primordial Stance **or **Stone Resonance** it'd be even more 1sided so i chose something relatively similar) > **Spectral Armor** - 8sec of Protection, LF Gen on Damage Taken, Breaks Stun. 40Sec CD > **Armor Of Earth** - 6sec of Protection, 6sec of 10stack Stability, (Traited) 6sec Vigor, 6sec of Regen, Breaks Stun, Safe Stomp. 50sec CD (40sec CD Traited) > > * Summon Flesh Wurm vs Lightning Flash/Judge's Intervention/Blink/Shadowstep. > I really feel this doesn't need a long explanation. I left out a lot of other abilities and simply compared Utilities. I could go on with Weapon skills included. The only thing im going to say is 1.5sec Cast Time + Telegraphing of Location. > > * Shouts - Show me another profession with shouts that even has cast times on their primary utilities (Not healing/Elite Skills). I'll wait. I'll save you the trouble. Tempest with 0.25sec Cast. Don't get me started on what they actually do compared to ours. > > **TLDR**: Reaper/Core Necro Skills are 1-dimensional, slow, non-versatile, lack reliability. Coupled all into a melee spec. Our front-loaded damage is the excuse the Balancing Team has to say we should lack those tools. Theres a reason the "Focus the Necro" trend spawned is because, despite our "Massive HP Pool + Shourdz omg :#', we drop the fastest out of any profession (Excluding Scourge). > > now you make feel bad for just asking to add resistance to necro T_T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Not really. Sometimes dmg reduction doesn't twork correctly. Can't say what triggers the infunctionality. > Because if i go shroud with full lf, and a ranger pewpew me and i drop out of shroud, it's definetly not working. > > Sure there are ranger builds that pewpew you for 32-36kdmg > But if they do so, they have like nothing else to run away anymore. > > And not everyone knows these builds. > So i have to assume the dmg reduction isn't working. > I can't say forsure. Only what the wiki states. Nothing on either the in-game description nor the Wiki states anything as far as a separation between PvE/WvW/sPvP so it could possible be a "PvE" only sort of deal, but i can't prove it without tests. I'll see what i can record and post up when i'm able. If the 50% dmg reduction isn't working. I'd say we should be petition for ArenaNet to give us a little clarity on the subject. > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > now you make feel bad for just asking to add resistance to necro T_T While Resistance would be a great addition, it hardly solves the problems we have. Conversely Weaver, or even Elementalist, as a whole has little to no access to resistance and they do fine without it. They make up for it with ample amounts of evades, perma-vigor, healing, boon-uptime, and 20-26 different weapon skills. Unfortunately the problems are more core to Reaper and Necro as a profession. Necro is a profession with a clear defined "Weakness". As opposed to other Professions which i think have options to cover all of their own weaknesses. Even the Elite Spec Descriptions written by Arena Net themselves describe Reaper as **"Slow"** (_Clear Defined Weakness_) and **"Inexorable".** I definitely feel the Slow but the Inexorable (Def: impossible to stop or prevent.) i do not feel the "unstoppable" Even doing some sort of massive rework on weapon skills and utilities to put us in-line with other classes in our abilities to access the tools we lack would only make us Massively Overpowered, because of our front-loaded damage and damage potential, **and thats not what im after**. I'd like to compile a list of changes i'd love to see to give us these things, but honestly idk if Anet would go for it. Why do a massive rework/update to Reaper when they're trying to sell their PoF Elite Specs. Combine that with the fact that we as the Necro forum are often divided in our opinions on what needs to be changed. Some people want more mobility, some people are fine with the lack of mobility and want access to Invulns and Blocks, some people want increased healing potential. If anything is going to change we gotta come together and agree on something, pitch it, and put a massive amount of unified support behind it before the Developers take a look and listen. Im wondering how many people would like actually talk it out and **set up a Discord Channel** and get this stuff _debated, settled, refined, and posted_. So that when we make a forum post, we have a **massive backing by the Necro Community.** We can actually attract the attention of developers to talk with us about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Why do a massive rework/update to Reaper when they're trying to sell their PoF Elite Specs. i think this is the problem and we cant convince ANET to sell all the elites or even core Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > Why do a massive rework/update to Reaper when they're trying to sell their PoF Elite Specs. > i think this is the problem and we cant convince ANET to sell all the elites or even core I wanna believe in the power of a unified necro community being able to petition for something, but yeah that very well could be true. Keep the old stuff low-priority so the new stuff looks better which means they'll pay for the privileged to use whats "Meta" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > Why do a massive rework/update to Reaper when they're trying to sell their PoF Elite Specs. > > i think this is the problem and we cant convince ANET to sell all the elites or even core > > I wanna believe in the power of a unified necro community being able to petition for something, but yeah that very well could be true. > > Keep the old stuff low-priority so the new stuff looks better which means they'll pay for the privileged to use whats "Meta" Petition are against the charte of the forum ;) The issue is, while everyone might agree for some rework on core, reaper and even scourge, it's virtually impossible to rally everyone to proposed changes. We all have our own point of view on the necromancer and it's often very different. Good examples of our internal division are _Deathly Chill_, _Lich form_ and _epidemic_. We just can't agree with each other on these topics. If we add on top of this our different prefered gamemode, the necromancer community is a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > > Why do a massive rework/update to Reaper when they're trying to sell their PoF Elite Specs. > > > i think this is the problem and we cant convince ANET to sell all the elites or even core > > > > I wanna believe in the power of a unified necro community being able to petition for something, but yeah that very well could be true. > > > > Keep the old stuff low-priority so the new stuff looks better which means they'll pay for the privileged to use whats "Meta" > > Petition are against the charte of the forum ;) > > The issue is, while everyone might agree for some rework on core, reaper and even scourge, it's virtually impossible to rally everyone to proposed changes. We all have our own point of view on the necromancer and it's often very different. Good examples of our internal division are _Deathly Chill_, _Lich form_ and _epidemic_. We just can't agree with each other on these topics. If we add on top of this our different prefered gamemode, the necromancer community is a mess. A man can dream. /sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Im going to make this as short and concise as i possibly can. > > **1. Shroud Dmg Reduction** - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud - Wiki states the 50% dmg reduction is **_NOT_** reflected in the combat log. I haven't personally tested this but in theory it should work like this. > > * You get hit for 5k* > * Combat log says 5k > * Enemy Player Sees 5k Dmg Numbers > * You only lose 2.5k Shroud. > > **2. Reaper Design** - Too put in plainly Reapers problem is being 1-dimensional. Necromancer Core and Reaper both suffer from this. Damage is too Front-Loaded to allow of anything else simply because of possibly Damage. > > * Gravedigger/Soul Spiral/Death Spiral/Executioners Scythe - They are all 1-dimensional and slow. Lack of Variation, Application, and Reliability is the core of the problem. Gravedigger being the prime example. _"But its good down-cleave"_ No. It's only usable as down-cleave. Pistol Whip is good downcleave, does that mean its only good there? Blurred Frenzy is good down-cleave (**it also scales better and has higher base damage then Gravedigger**) but is it only useful as downcleave? I could go on with examples from every profession. Blurred Frenzy does less damage than Gravedigger and has a slower cast (2.5s for the full channel). It had its coefficient doubled for PvE-only and is generally required to be used off cooldown as it's a very important defense mechanism for the mesmer. > **3. Utilities pale in comparison to other professions Utilities.** - Spectral Armor, Summon Flesh Wurm, Spectral Walk, Consume Conditions, Shouts as a Whole within Reaper. > > * Spectral Armor vs Armor of Earth (If i compared this **Primordial Stance **or **Stone Resonance** it'd be even more 1sided so i chose something relatively similar) > **Spectral Armor** - 8sec of Protection, LF Gen on Damage Taken, Breaks Stun. 40Sec CD > **Armor Of Earth** - 6sec of Protection, 6sec of 10stack Stability, (Traited) 6sec Vigor, 6sec of Regen, Breaks Stun, Safe Stomp. 50sec CD (40sec CD Traited) These utilities serve very different purposes for the necromancer and provide more than just boons, and you're also neglecting the difference in HP pool; Spectral Armror allows for post-mitigation DR as well thanks to shroud (absorb damage via prot/LF gen -> Enter Shroud and absorb more damage/recover HP via Blighter's/Blood Magic/Buying time for heal), and necro has 80% more hp than ele, thief, and guard, so I'd hope its active defenses are slightly worse for damage avoidance and combo resistance since these classes are much less forgiving to eat hits on and necromancer would otherwise just be stronger. The skills are "similar" in that they provide protection and stunbreak... but that's really about it. SA has the lower cooldown, anyways, and very few builds run Cantrip ele (I only see one for D/D tempest updated over a year ago). > * Summon Flesh Wurm vs Lightning Flash/Judge's Intervention/Blink/Shadowstep. > I really feel this doesn't need a long explanation. I left out a lot of other abilities and simply compared Utilities. I could go on with Weapon skills included. The only thing im going to say is 1.5sec Cast Time + Telegraphing of Location. The only problem with the skill is that the wurm can be killed so easily in large group play. Tons of people use it without issue. Again, comparing things in a vacuum isn't a good way to go. I think you also forgot about Core's Dark Path? Virtually the same skill as JI, except on 1/3 the cooldown. > * Shouts - Show me another profession with shouts that even has cast times on their primary utilities (Not healing/Elite Skills). I'll wait. I'll save you the trouble. Tempest with 0.25sec Cast. Don't get me started on what they actually do compared to ours. Only two shouts on reaper have casts, one of which isn't even good to begin with, and the Tempest's shouts are worse than Reaper's as a whole, so I don't really see your point here. Rise could use a tweak on its cooldown or just be reworked entirely because SA makes it redundant since it got nerfed. > **TLDR**: Reaper/Core Necro Skills are 1-dimensional, slow, non-versatile, lack reliability. Coupled all into a melee spec. Our front-loaded damage is the excuse the Balancing Team has to say we should lack those tools. Theres a reason the "Focus the Necro" trend spawned is because, despite our "Massive HP Pool + Shourdz omg :#', we drop the fastest out of any profession (Excluding Scourge). "Focus the necro" has absolutely nothing to do with it strictly dying the fastest lol. The tactic to "focus the necro" in high-level conquest is because necromancers have systematically hard-countered every "meta" (boons) since season 1 and are a snowbally profession (in both directions), which if left unchecked and being allowed to generate life force/stay alive can single-handedly turn games around. It's just very easy to kill a necro early and prevent this from happening solely because it lacks LF at the start of a given match (and thus can't fall back on defenses and tank), exacerbated by the LF changes and removal of VP's shroud-durability as it'd break scourge. It has little to do with it having a one-dimensional set of weapon/utility sills or being super squishy. It's literally just how LF is in sPvP. Starting with 20-30% LF would make necros a serious threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > Blurred Frenzy does less damage than Gravedigger and has a slower cast (2.5s for the full channel). It had its coefficient doubled for PvE-only and is generally required to be used off cooldown as it's a very important defense mechanism for the mesmer. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy No. You have a 1/2Sec Cast time. Damage comes out afterwards for 2.5 Secs along with 2.5 Secs of Evasion. On a 12 Sec Cooldown. It's just a better Hundred Blades. If Gravedigger was a 1/2sec charge up with 2 secs of consistent dmg and a block/invuln/evasion. It would be valued more. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > These utilities serve very different purposes for the necromancer and provide more than just boons, and you're also neglecting the difference in HP pool; Spectral Armror > allows for post-mitigation DR as well thanks to shroud (absorb damage via prot/LF gen -> Enter Shroud and absorb more damage/recover HP via Blighter's/Blood > Magic/Buying time for heal), and necro has 80% more hp than ele, thief, and guard, so I'd hope its active defenses are slightly worse for damage avoidance and combo > resistance since these classes are much less forgiving to eat hits on and necromancer would otherwise just be stronger. The skills are "similar" in that they provide > protection and stunbreak... but that's really about it. SA has the lower cooldown, anyways, and very few builds run Cantrip ele (I only see one for D/D tempest updated > over a year ago). > Taking Damage. Is. Still. Taking. Damage. And 8sec of Prot on a 40sec cooldown is a little sad, comparatively speaking. I get more Protection uptime from my Runes of Durability then an actual Utility. No access to safe stomp utility. Is a stomp that can only be secured with Shourd 3. And Shroud being used to stomp is honestly wasted. Finishers take 3.5 seconds to cast. You can except to lose about 15-20% Shroud. The reason Spectral Armor is taken is not because "It's Good". It's taken because its "Not quite Worse" than other Stun Breakers, Life Force Gen while being our only on demand access to a single boon. As far as active HP, we scale the same as a Ranger or Warrior. Hunter has access to plenty of high damage coming from 1500 Range as well as Stealth, Sustain, and more Impactful Utilities. Warrior (Spellbreaker) has access to 8sec 1/2sec Invuln that will pop for 7k Damage while granting Stability, Resistance, 1/2Sec Daze, Reset its other burst ability, all while providing sustain with Adrenal Health. This argument is invalid. Refer to my previous post in this thread about Total HP vs Effective HP. How about i compare any of these. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stone_Resonance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordial_Stance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Absorption https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Featherfoot_Grace https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoy https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Midnight > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > The only problem with the skill is that the wurm can be killed so easily in large group play. Tons of people use it without issue. Again, comparing things in a vacuum isn't a good way to go. I think you also forgot about Core's Dark Path? Virtually the same skill as JI, except on 1/3 the cooldown. > Besides having a cast time. You have telegraphed your target destination to everyone vaguely familiar with Necro skills to understand what that Wurm Signifies. Tell me. If a Mesmer/Thief Telegraphed and took 1.5sec to travel to his location every time he uses his blinks/teleport/stealths wouldnt you have an easier time. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Only two shouts on reaper have casts, one of which isn't even good to begin with, and the Tempest's shouts are worse than Reaper's as a whole, so I don't really see your point here. Rise could use a tweak on its cooldown or just be reworked entirely because SA makes it redundant since it got nerfed. > Your right. Tempest Shouts aren't that great. Lets take a look at some others then. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Shake_It_Off!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Guard!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Hold_the_Line!%22 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > "Focus the necro" has absolutely nothing to do with it strictly dying the fastest lol. The tactic to "focus the necro" in high-level conquest is because necromancers have systematically hard-countered every "meta" (boons) since season 1 and are a snowbally profession (in both directions), which if left unchecked and being allowed to generate life force/stay alive can single-handedly turn games around. It's just very easy to kill a necro early and prevent this from happening solely because it lacks LF at the start of a given match (and thus can't fall back on defenses and tank), exacerbated by the LF changes and removal of VP's shroud-durability as it'd break scourge. It has little to do with it having a one-dimensional set of weapon/utility sills or being super squishy. It's literally just how LF is in sPvP. Starting with 20-30% LF would make necros a serious threat. > I can't speak for Scourge. Never played it. Nor do i care too. I've fought them sure. Again having full access to Shroud could be a major limiter for you. As a GS/Staff-Axe/Warhorn, i've learned to stand back in the beginning and let other push to me and over extend. I can tend to generate 50% LF within in the first 6-8 sec of combat. Use Sigil of Doom/Hydromancy. I also tend to run Unholy Martyr since the condi burst of mesmers and theives are too much for simply Consume Conditions nor plague signet to handle. Life Force generation has never been a problem. We are focused because our defensive capabilities are limited to 2 dodges and an inflated "Total HP" but comparing that to a class that would have more access to protection, invulns, evades, reflects, blocks, is not just a case of "Necros have more HP so they survive longer" Effective HP =/= Total HP. Especially not when damage mitigation is sometimes core to other professions. Those types of tools dont scale linearly with HP. They Scale Multiplicative with HP. Combine that with our ability to be kited easier and our skills come out slower and more telegraphed then any other profession we will be outlasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > Blurred Frenzy does less damage than Gravedigger and has a slower cast (2.5s for the full channel). It had its coefficient doubled for PvE-only and is generally required to be used off cooldown as it's a very important defense mechanism for the mesmer. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy > > No. You have a 1/2Sec Cast time. Damage comes out afterwards for 2.5 Secs along with 2.5 Secs of Evasion. On a 12 Sec Cooldown. It's just a better Hundred Blades. > > If Gravedigger was a 1/2sec charge up with 2 secs of consistent dmg and a block/invuln/evasion. It would be valued more. > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > These utilities serve very different purposes for the necromancer and provide more than just boons, and you're also neglecting the difference in HP pool; Spectral Armror > allows for post-mitigation DR as well thanks to shroud (absorb damage via prot/LF gen -> Enter Shroud and absorb more damage/recover HP via Blighter's/Blood > > Magic/Buying time for heal), and necro has 80% more hp than ele, thief, and guard, so I'd hope its active defenses are slightly worse for damage avoidance and combo > > resistance since these classes are much less forgiving to eat hits on and necromancer would otherwise just be stronger. The skills are "similar" in that they provide > > protection and stunbreak... but that's really about it. SA has the lower cooldown, anyways, and very few builds run Cantrip ele (I only see one for D/D tempest updated > > over a year ago). > > > > Taking Damage. Is. Still. Taking. Damage. And 8sec of Prot on a 40sec cooldown is a little sad, comparatively speaking. I get more Protection uptime from my Runes of Durability then an actual Utility. > > No access to safe stomp utility. Is a stomp that can only be secured with Shourd 3. And Shroud being used to stomp is honestly wasted. > > Finishers take 3.5 seconds to cast. You can except to lose about 15-20% Shroud. > > The reason Spectral Armor is taken is not because "It's Good". It's taken because its "Not quite Worse" than other Stun Breakers, Life Force Gen while being our only on demand access to a single boon. > > As far as active HP, we scale the same as a Ranger or Warrior. Hunter has access to plenty of high damage coming from 1500 Range as well as Stealth, Sustain, and more Impactful Utilities. Warrior (Spellbreaker) has access to 8sec 1/2sec Invuln that will pop for 7k Damage while granting Stability, Resistance, 1/2Sec Daze, Reset its other burst ability, all while providing sustain with Adrenal Health. This argument is invalid. Refer to my previous post in this thread about Total HP vs Effective HP. > > How about i compare any of these. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stone_Resonance > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordial_Stance > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Absorption > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Featherfoot_Grace > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoy > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Midnight > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > The only problem with the skill is that the wurm can be killed so easily in large group play. Tons of people use it without issue. Again, comparing things in a vacuum isn't a good way to go. I think you also forgot about Core's Dark Path? Virtually the same skill as JI, except on 1/3 the cooldown. > > > > Besides having a cast time. You have telegraphed your target destination to everyone vaguely familiar with Necro skills to understand what that Wurm Signifies. > > Tell me. If a Mesmer/Thief Telegraphed and took 1.5sec to travel to his location every time he uses his blinks/teleport/stealths wouldnt you have an easier time. > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > Only two shouts on reaper have casts, one of which isn't even good to begin with, and the Tempest's shouts are worse than Reaper's as a whole, so I don't really see your point here. Rise could use a tweak on its cooldown or just be reworked entirely because SA makes it redundant since it got nerfed. > > > > Your right. Tempest Shouts aren't that great. Lets take a look at some others then. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Shake_It_Off!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Guard!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22 > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Hold_the_Line!%22 > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > "Focus the necro" has absolutely nothing to do with it strictly dying the fastest lol. The tactic to "focus the necro" in high-level conquest is because necromancers have systematically hard-countered every "meta" (boons) since season 1 and are a snowbally profession (in both directions), which if left unchecked and being allowed to generate life force/stay alive can single-handedly turn games around. It's just very easy to kill a necro early and prevent this from happening solely because it lacks LF at the start of a given match (and thus can't fall back on defenses and tank), exacerbated by the LF changes and removal of VP's shroud-durability as it'd break scourge. It has little to do with it having a one-dimensional set of weapon/utility sills or being super squishy. It's literally just how LF is in sPvP. Starting with 20-30% LF would make necros a serious threat. > > > > I can't speak for Scourge. Never played it. Nor do i care too. I've fought them sure. > > Again having full access to Shroud could be a major limiter for you. As a GS/Staff-Axe/Warhorn, i've learned to stand back in the beginning and let other push to me and over extend. I can tend to generate 50% LF within in the first 6-8 sec of combat. Use Sigil of Doom/Hydromancy. I also tend to run Unholy Martyr since the condi burst of mesmers and theives are too much for simply Consume Conditions nor plague signet to handle. Life Force generation has never been a problem. > > We are focused because our defensive capabilities are limited to 2 dodges and an inflated "Total HP" but comparing that to a class that would have more access to protection, invulns, evades, reflects, blocks, is not just a case of "Necros have more HP so they survive longer" > > Effective HP =/= Total HP. Especially not when damage mitigation is sometimes core to other professions. > > Those types of tools dont scale linearly with HP. They Scale Multiplicative with HP. Combine that with our ability to be kited easier and our skills come out slower and more telegraphed then any other profession we will be outlasted. > Your original argument was that it was a better downed cleave damage skill. It isn't. Blurred Frenzy's damage component still takes 2.5s to complete the animation. The cast time listed is solely the windup which makes it worse for cleaving downs/dealing damage than GD because it's slower. The coefficient is 2.4 in PvP and WvW. Gravedigger's coefficient is 3.0 and reaper has way better access to might than mesmer. Per unit of time, Gravedigger is just better as a damage source. Period. BF is a better skill as a whole, but it's **not** a primary source of damage in the PvP modes because of mesmer's low might and low misc. damage modifier access as well as the fact it takes longer to cast and deals less damage. Mirage is overpowered and mesmer can easily 100-0 things. It's not because BF is dealing too much damage lol. Gravedigger has a 33% lower base cooldown and the reset casts so I'm not even sure why you mentioned the cooldown of BF in your original post, either. They're totally different skills and the strength of GS comes from skills 4-5, just how the strength of mesmer's sword comes almost solely from BF. You don't get more durability from your runes than SA lmao. The protection from SA lingers even if you re-enter shroud, you get a massive amount of LF, and the Protection + shroud DR stack. Durability runes have a 20s cooldown and last 3.45s. Every 40s assuming the activation (a low % chance as it is) occurs twice which is super unrealistic, durability runes will apply 6.9s of protection versus SA's 8s. Your statements are downright false. It doesn't matter if you're still taking hits, either. If you can absorb half the damage and negate the other half in Shroud, you're still only taking half damage and buying time and forcing cooldowns. If you're guaranteed to take a few lower-power hits, you can use SA to tank them, regen tons of LF, and re-engage and apply pressure and negate any subsequent real burst follow-through. You can't dodge/negate everything. That's literally the point of necromancer. Budget your resources better. Spellbreaker as a whole is brinking on being overpowered so I'm sure why you'd opt to use them as a basis for comparison, anyways. Even warriors want stances changed to be more engaging and FC's damage is stupidly high. Again, reaper's sustain issues come almost exclusively from the nerfs to VP and the degen rate. LF decays at 4x the rate it used to for builds running SR. That's the problem more than anything. Spectral Armor is good lol. It was sketchy before they reduced the cooldown, buffed the duration, and made it work in shroud. Then they buffed it, and now it's a super strong utility. I've been using it since before it even got buffed and found success with it even then. I primarily play thief and despite having several thousand hours on a single thief build, my reaper performance with only 10% of the time in 1v1 play, WvW roaming, and sPvP is all strictly better. Having that much free defense is absolutely insane and SA covers most of the bases for what reaper needs. Do you not realize the sacrifices being made by other classes to safe stomp? For a thief to safe stomp for example, it needs to burn the equivalent resources of SA + Consume Conditions **on higher cooldowns and sacrifice its primary disengage.** Mist form on ele is 60s cooldown and wastes a utility slot for anything except safe stomps. Shroud is available once every 10s. for basically the same thing. Dark Path and JI are the same skill effect, and the necromancer can perform mid-flight or precast skills during the travel time of Dark Path. JI can only be used on an enemy target in a similar fashion and outside of DH guard has no melee game, so it having a cast time doesn't mean anything. As for Mes/Thief... I already have an easy time. 99% of thieves are free bags for me because I know how to counterplay them. Ask Prominent Reapers like Eremite. I've literally been the person to instruct them how to beat them. In almost all cases the Reaper/Daredevil matchup is a L2P issue, especially since they nerfed Staff BD. Only at the absolute top end does it tip in the thieve's favor, but that's also strictly in a dueling environment. You're cherry-picking a list of shouts from other professions and again, basing them in comparison in a vacuum, not for the needs of the class. If you start giving the necromancer the strengths the other professions utilize because they have lower resources, it becomes overpowered. Imagine thief with on-demand protection and post-mitigation like SA but without needing a whole trait line. Plus, again, looking to the other professions' shouts... their shouts still aren't utilized in any builds, nor have they been for ages. On the entirety of Metabattle, I see zero shouts run in Conquest for Guardian and "Stand Your Ground!" for stability and "Retreat!" for Swiftness in WvW zergs (the latter being run in a single build) because Guardians' shouts are supposed to be group support as it is, while Reaper's are selfish/AoE control. They're two very different sets of skills with different preferred environments. Reaper has better access to both of these effects (Stab and Movespeed) via RS3, FitG, and SoS, SotL, or QT, too. "Suffer!" has a lower cooldown than "Shake if Off!" and a higher upper limit on condition removal in group play or into mesmers where the condi cleanse is totally necessary. The only advantage gained is the stunbreak, but there are big holes in the warrior's build if running it: You either opt out of Balanced Stance, Endure Pain, or Bull's Charge, all of which are huge losses to the warrior and the condi handling/stunbreaking/stability is easily performed by necromancer through wells, Consume Conditions, Plague Signet, various traits (Spiteful Renewal, Unholy Martyr), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Your original argument was that it was a better downed cleave damage skill. It isn't. Blurred Frenzy's damage component still takes 2.5s to complete the animation. The cast time listed is solely the windup which makes it worse for cleaving downs/dealing damage than GD because it's slower. The coefficient is 2.4 in PvP and WvW. Gravedigger's coefficient is 3.0 and reaper has way better access to might than mesmer. Per unit of time, Gravedigger is just better as a damage source. Period. BF is a better skill as a whole, but it's **not** a primary source of damage in the PvP modes because of mesmer's low might and low misc. damage modifier access as well as the fact it takes longer to cast and deals less damage. Mirage is overpowered and mesmer can easily 100-0 things. It's not because BF is dealing too much damage lol. Gravedigger has a 33% lower base cooldown and the reset casts so I'm not even sure why you mentioned the cooldown of BF in your original post, either. They're totally different skills and the strength of GS comes from skills 4-5, just how the strength of mesmer's sword comes almost solely from BF. > My Original Argument, if you read up. Is that Gravedigger is "only" useful as Downcleave. The wind up, telegraph, and lack of any defensive measure leaves you massively vulnerable. The wiki states "October 18, 2016 - The damage of this ability has been increased by 100% in PvE areas only." So my mistake, it was just buffed for PvE. Not nerfed for WvW/PvP. The wiki must only state the pve scaling values. My statement of Blurred Frenzy being higher damage is just what the wiki puts of in terms of skill base damage and scaling. But i asked is blurred frenzy only good for downcleave. No it isnt. It was a rhetorical question. Please re-read my post so you dont get confused. > You don't get more durability from your runes than SA lmao. The protection from SA lingers even if you re-enter shroud, you get a massive amount of LF, and the Protection + shroud DR stack. Durability runes have a 20s cooldown and last 3.45s. Every 40s assuming the activation (a low % chance as it is) occurs twice which is super unrealistic, durability runes will apply 6.9s of protection versus SA's 8s. Your statements are downright false. > I did not say "durability" i said "I get more Protection uptime from my Runes of Durability then an actual Utility." Which with 33% boon duration you have the possibility of getting 4sec+ of Protection, Regeneration, and 2.5+sec of resistance every 20 Seconds. > It doesn't matter if you're still taking hits, either. If you can absorb half the damage and negate the other half in Shroud, you're still only taking half damage and buying time and forcing cooldowns. If you're guaranteed to take a few lower-power hits, you can use SA to tank them, regen tons of LF, and re-engage and apply pressure and negate any subsequent real burst follow-through. You can't dodge/negate everything. That's literally the point of necromancer. Budget your resources better. > Let me know how getting focused on a point in a teamfight with 6stacks of bleed, 8stacks of confusion, Torment, Slow, etc... Let me know how well I can "budget my resources better". Thats about as good an argument as "Just dodge the Steal bro" > Spellbreaker as a whole is brinking on being overpowered so I'm sure why you'd opt to use them as a basis for comparison, anyways. Even warriors want stances changed to be more engaging and FC's damage is stupidly high. Again, reaper's sustain issues come almost exclusively from the nerfs to VP and the degen rate. LF decays at 4x the rate it used to for builds running SR. That's the problem more than anything. > Spellbreakers are not overpowered. They have a straight forward kit. Dont hit into FC. Yes its hard but is possible to play around. If you hit into, you can dodge the damage. > Spectral Armor is good lol. It was sketchy before they reduced the cooldown, buffed the duration, and made it work in shroud. Then they buffed it, and now it's a super strong utility. I've been using it since before it even got buffed and found success with it even then. I primarily play thief and despite having several thousand hours on a single thief build, my reaper performance with only 10% of the time in 1v1 play, WvW roaming, and sPvP is all strictly better. Having that much free defense is absolutely insane and SA covers most of the bases for what reaper needs. > So spectral armor is good. Why? Because it generates LF and gives protection? I've listed my reasons in a previous post. Why not take Spectral Walk then? You can juke with it, so it must be good. /s > Do you not realize the sacrifices being made by other classes to safe stomp? For a thief to safe stomp for example, it needs to burn the equivalent resources of SA + Consume Conditions **on higher cooldowns and sacrifice its primary disengage.** Mist form on ele is 60s cooldown and wastes a utility slot for anything except safe stomps. Shroud is available once every 10s. for basically the same thing. > You can shadowstep stomp, stealth stomp, etc. No compareable. You atleast have the ability to do it. Elementalists that arent weaver, usually take Water. Which would give you access to Soothing Disruptions. Which then would reduce recharge by 20% grant Regen and Vigor. So you have a 48sec CD instant cast, stun break, invuln, that grants Regen, Vigor, and cures a condition. > Dark Path and JI are the same skill effect, and the necromancer can perform mid-flight or precast skills during the travel time of Dark Path. JI can only be used on an enemy target in a similar fashion and outside of DH guard has no melee game, so it having a cast time doesn't mean anything. As for Mes/Thief... I already have an easy time. 99% of thieves are free bags for me because I know how to counterplay them. Ask Prominent Reapers like Eremite. I've literally been the person to instruct them how to beat them. In almost all cases the Reaper/Daredevil matchup is a L2P issue, especially since they nerfed Staff BD. Only at the absolute top end does it tip in the thieve's favor, but that's also strictly in a dueling environment. > Dark Path and JI are not the same. You do not port with Dark Path if it doesn't hit. JI needs only to have an enemy targeted. Big. Difference. Or did you not get your facts straight and meant Deaths Charge. Cuz i can't count how many times ive seen Deaths Charge get during its damage, only to have a enemy dodge away while im waiting for it to end so i can continue to run around and chase my target after my "Leap" failed to actually close the distance. > You're cherry-picking a list of shouts from other professions and again, basing them in comparison in a vacuum, not for the needs of the class. If you start giving the necromancer the strengths the other professions utilize because they have lower resources, it becomes overpowered. Imagine thief with on-demand protection and post-mitigation like SA but without needing a whole trait line. Plus, again, looking to the other professions' shouts... their shouts still aren't utilized in any builds, nor have they been for ages. On the entirety of Metabattle, I see zero shouts run in Conquest for Guardian and "Stand Your Ground!" for stability and "Retreat!" for Swiftness in WvW zergs (the latter being run in a single build) because Guardians' shouts are supposed to be group support as it is, while Reaper's are selfish/AoE control. They're two very different sets of skills with different preferred environments. Reaper has better access to both of these effects (Stab and Movespeed) via RS3, FitG, and SoS, SotL, or QT, too. "Suffer!" has a lower cooldown than "Shake if Off!" and a higher upper limit on condition removal in group play or into mesmers where the condi cleanse is totally necessary. The only advantage gained is the stunbreak, but there are big holes in the warrior's build if running it: You either opt out of Balanced Stance, Endure Pain, or Bull's Charge, all of which are huge losses to the warrior and the condi handling/stunbreaking/stability is easily performed by necromancer through wells, Consume Conditions, Plague Signet, various traits (Spiteful Renewal, Unholy Martyr), etc. Not cherry picking anything. Multiple Shouts from Multiple Classes. Suffer is a ok-ish shout, but when you have a full red-line of condis let me know how good Suffer is at condi removal when it takes off your torment and the 8stack of bleeds, confusion, Slow, etc is still one you, Did i mention it only condi "Transfers" if the shout hits? YAAM is a good shout. Thief can get on demand protection. Infact they get one better. They literally steal the buff from the target itself with your own profession ability should you choose to spec into it. So your argument is Shouts are terrible all around for everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Not cherry picking anything. Multiple Shouts from Multiple Classes. Suffer is a ok-ish shout, but when you have a full red-line of condis let me know how good Suffer is at condi removal when it takes off your torment and the 8stack of bleeds, confusion, Slow, etc is still one you, Did i mention it only condi "Transfers" if the shout hits? Suffer! is multifunctional. It's usefull in a lot of builds. Chill has many synergies on reaper. - increases dps (cold shoulder) - increases burst (procs chilling nova) - CC - applies vulnerability -> more damage, cover condition, crit chance increase - very good setup skill for melee kiting - team fight / anti mesmer condi cleanse Suffer! is the shout that makes MH-dagger on reaper viable. - dagger3 -> Suffer! -> immob and 3 cover conditions (chill, vuln, bleed) - Suffer! -> dagger auto -> instant proc of chilling nova + 6 vuln. = 12% crit chance increase (all this gives you a nice instant burst) I've destroyed countless druids (!) with the dagger3 -> Suffer! -> shroudburst combo. >YAAM is a good shout. I guess you are talking about YAAW!?! This is the worst of the four utility shouts. - might gain is useless compared to Suffer! because the chill grants a flat 10% damage increase - the stunbreak is better achieved via plague signet, spectral armor and even foot in the grave (this brings me back to topic ;-) ) - weakness is useless as you create it through might corrupts anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > Not cherry picking anything. Multiple Shouts from Multiple Classes. Suffer is a ok-ish shout, but when you have a full red-line of condis let me know how good Suffer is at condi removal when it takes off your torment and the 8stack of bleeds, confusion, Slow, etc is still one you, Did i mention it only condi "Transfers" if the shout hits? > Suffer! is multifunctional. It's usefull in a lot of builds. Chill has many synergies on reaper. > > - increases dps (cold shoulder) > - increases burst (procs chilling nova) > - CC > - applies vulnerability -> more damage, cover condition, crit chance increase > - very good setup skill for melee kiting > - team fight / anti mesmer condi cleanse > > Suffer! is the shout that makes MH-dagger on reaper viable. > > - dagger3 -> Suffer! -> immob and 3 cover conditions (chill, vuln, bleed) > - Suffer! -> dagger auto -> instant proc of chilling nova + 6 vuln. = 12% crit chance increase (all this gives you a nice instant burst) > > I've destroyed countless druids (!) with the dagger3 -> Suffer! -> shroudburst combo. > > >YAAM is a good shout. > I guess you are talking about YAAW!?! > > This is the worst of the four utility shouts. > > - might gain is useless compared to Suffer! because the chill grants a flat 10% damage increase > - the stunbreak is better achieved via plague signet, spectral armor and even foot in the grave (this brings me back to topic ;-) ) > - weakness is useless as you create it through might corrupts anyway You also have many other ways of applying chill through out your GS weapon set. Dedicating an entire utility to it is a little overboard. As far as Condi Cleanse. I get that if you hit the mesmer + 4 clones you have the possibility of clearing 5 condis but even then thats very situational. As far as YAAW*, for being a quick stun breaker that can grant you a lot of healing (blighters boon) and jump you up to 25 might stacks (in combination with other abilities) i hardly find it useless comparatively to how bad Rise and NCSU are. I agree though Plague Signet and Spectral armor are better stun breakers, if you choose to run YSIM with the shout enhanced trait, YAAW isnt bad at all. Foot in the grave is nice but Death Perception is better over all if i can guarantee crits after 50% base crit chance. Again since Reaper is not synonymous with sustain, and you have so much front loaded damage, might as well use that to your advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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