Burnfall.9573 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 /wave took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... " What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun" 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved /bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > /wave > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > " What has been will be again, > what has been done will be done again; > there is nothing new under the sun" > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > /bye > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > /wave > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > " What has been will be again, > > what has been done will be done again; > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > /bye > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ 1. Ecclesiastes 1:-9 2. http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > /wave > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > /wave > > > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta > > That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. yet results remain the same? lastly, what lessons are learned since 2015? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > /wave > > > > > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > > > > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta > > > > That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. > > yet results remain the same? > > lastly, what lessons are learned since 2015? Meaning it's no longer relevant and you're grasping at straws as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > /wave > > > > > > > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > > > > > > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > > > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta > > > > > > That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. > > > > yet results remain the same? > > > > lastly, what lessons are learned since 2015? > > Meaning it's no longer relevant and you're grasping at straws as usual. Yet we are back here again dealing with the same unlearned lessons Yup, no longer relevant once more Move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > > /wave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > > > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > > > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > > > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > > > > > > > > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > > > > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta > > > > > > > > That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. > > > > > > yet results remain the same? > > > > > > lastly, what lessons are learned since 2015? > > > > Meaning it's no longer relevant and you're grasping at straws as usual. > > Yet we are back here again dealing with the same unlearned lessons > > Yup, no longer relevant once more > > Move on... To go into further detail, he's talking about when Backstab Thief was relevant and thought the Mirror Blade+Mind Wrack combo was actually difficult to dodge, the article has no relevance to the current PvP environment and merely speculates that the only reason D/D cele ele and other annoying bunker classes emerged was solely because of one half decent spike damage build and another with one of the more highly telegraphed combos in the game. Careful, your inability to think for yourself is showing. Just like your ill fated thread on how Mesmer lost it's identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > /wave > > > > > > > > > > took some time off and returning to the same old history again.... > > > > > (former Gw2 beta tester) 7 years later..... > > > > > > > > > > " What has been will be again, > > > > > what has been done will be done again; > > > > > there is nothing new under the sun" > > > > > > > > > > 'It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer will continue to be remain unsolved > > > > > > > > > > /bye > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'General rules for indirect quotes are to put who you're citing. In this case I assume you are citing yourself, which is odd given that you could have just posted it without self citation.' Gwaihir, 7/3/18, _Using indirect quotes to boost validity_ > > > > > > Ecclesiastes 1:-9 > > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta > > > > That article is from 2015 and before the Specialization update. > > yet results remain the same? > > lastly, what lessons are learned since 2015? > > Do you know how many times that article used the word 'celestial'? 8. Do you know which amulet that was responsible for that meta was removed and no longer available in pvp? Prizes for correct guesses available at www.procatinator.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 People are forgetting that the general point of OP is that everything except mirage is much closer, and thus it's hard to pinpoint the meta when the entire meta is being dictated by how you deal with mesmer. The current tier list is basically: SSS+ tier: Condi Mirage SSS tier: Power Mirage SS+ tier: SS tier: S+ tier: Chrono, SB, Actual thief S tier: Scourge, FB, TEEF A+ tier: Holo, Herald, maybe that janky Soulbeast build a few nerds play A tier: everything else B+ tier: B tier: C+ tier: C tier: D tier: E tier: F tier: Pits of hell tier: LOLWUT tier: Renegade tier: Renegade The gap is massive enough that nerfing mesmer down to even just S tier would likely drastically change the meta and open up the possibility for other builds, so touching other classes before that happens may not make sense or could have unintended consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > "Does not force movement nor cancel any actions"... Good thing it's not cancelling my blurred frenzy, phase retreat, chaos storm, torch 4, or shatters to doge instead. Cuz that would be imba! Oh wait... lol > Again the only things really being covered are heal, and phant summons. > > Being able to evade during those motions was part of the design for mirage, sorry it took away the "come burst me and you'll be safe before my phant gets to you" sign, and gave a way to cover heal, when most other classes had more efficient ways, or better passive sustain. was "dodging" while literally knocked down or stunned also a part of its design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinta.8906 Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier after they fixed confounding suggestions trait which stuns u in evade frames it may be fine. right now as it is there s not to much skill involved to land an unjustified wombocombo. i also had tests were elusive mind basicly ignored ground target cc for its duration (precasted before crossing the cc aoe) which shouldnt be the case either as it is a stunbreak not a stun avoid trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > Nobody was saying Condi Mesmer needed buffs? Unless you happened upon the one thread called 'Mesmer Buffs' which was mostly asking for reasonable changes or the ones asking for a Scepter redesign. Misrepresentation is super cool my dude. If I remember correctly you're the guy who posted that unhinged rant on why PvP is totally a great reason to revert the phantasm rework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopop.5630 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > > Nobody was saying Condi Mesmer needed buffs? Unless you happened upon the one thread called 'Mesmer Buffs' which was mostly asking for reasonable changes or the ones asking for a Scepter redesign. Misrepresentation is super cool my dude. If I remember correctly you're the guy who posted that unhinged rant on why PvP is totally a great reason to revert the phantasm rework. naw hes right, a shitload of people even during UGO were saying "condi mirage needs buff" when clearly it didn't..... Only issue was that after the nerf /rework on confusion everyone stop playing condi mirage and went straight to chrono. mirage has always been top tier regardless what spec you play it in, the only issue is that everyone just keeps jumping to the next broken spec/build that's available for it. Mesmer in general isn't "OP" it's Mirage and the amount of build diversity it has because mirage itself rewards a lot of bad plays with it's anit cc break from dodge and it's insane vigor up time.... HOW does 1 truly die on mirage if you are able to escape any cc and blink out with using your sword 1 ambush skill and not counting portal to be used. That alone is what truly makes the class so "OP" to much mobility , and aint cc break with an insane amount of up time on vigor. Just using those simple ability makes almost any build they have viable for either group fights or 1vs1. i started playing the class and i won't lie it's fun as hell running across the map with sword 1 ambush and blink then procing my heal for vigor for another sword 1 ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > Remember all of those nerfs that Power Mirage got? Yeah, so do I. Just in case you need a refresher: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latest * Mirror Blade: Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW. * Mental Anguish: Reduced bonus damage from 15% to 10% in PvP and from 30% to 20% in WvW. * Confounding Suggestions: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW. * Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW. And you are right, if condi mirage gets nerfed next week, mirage mains will likely shift to power mirage because it will be the only viable mirage build left, but that doesn't make it over-powered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > > > > > > Nobody was saying Condi Mesmer needed buffs? Unless you happened upon the one thread called 'Mesmer Buffs' which was mostly asking for reasonable changes or the ones asking for a Scepter redesign. Misrepresentation is super cool my dude. If I remember correctly you're the guy who posted that unhinged rant on why PvP is totally a great reason to revert the phantasm rework. > > naw hes right, a shitload of people even during UGO were saying "condi mirage needs buff" when clearly it didn't..... Only issue was that after the nerf /rework on confusion everyone stop playing condi mirage and went straight to chrono. > > mirage has always been top tier regardless what spec you play it in, the only issue is that everyone just keeps jumping to the next broken spec/build that's available for it. Mesmer in general isn't "OP" it's Mirage and the amount of build diversity it has because mirage itself rewards a lot of bad plays with it's anit cc break from dodge and it's insane vigor up time.... HOW does 1 truly die on mirage if you are able to escape any cc and blink out with using your sword 1 ambush skill and not counting portal to be used. That alone is what truly makes the class so "OP" to much mobility , and aint cc break with an insane amount of up time on vigor. Just using those simple ability makes almost any build they have viable for either group fights or 1vs1. > > i started playing the class and i won't lie it's fun as hell running across the map with sword 1 ambush and blink then procing my heal for vigor for another sword 1 ambush. Okay, so you rolled a condi mirage toon and did well on it. Please go make a Power Mirage toon and report back on how "OP" it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"zoopop.5630" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > > > > > > Nobody was saying Condi Mesmer needed buffs? Unless you happened upon the one thread called 'Mesmer Buffs' which was mostly asking for reasonable changes or the ones asking for a Scepter redesign. Misrepresentation is super cool my dude. If I remember correctly you're the guy who posted that unhinged rant on why PvP is totally a great reason to revert the phantasm rework. > > naw hes right, a shitload of people even during UGO were saying "condi mirage needs buff" when clearly it didn't..... Only issue was that after the nerf /rework on confusion everyone stop playing condi mirage and went straight to chrono. > > mirage has always been top tier regardless what spec you play it in, the only issue is that everyone just keeps jumping to the next broken spec/build that's available for it. Mesmer in general isn't "OP" it's Mirage and the amount of build diversity it has because mirage itself rewards a lot of bad plays with it's anit cc break from dodge and it's insane vigor up time.... HOW does 1 truly die on mirage if you are able to escape any cc and blink out with using your sword 1 ambush skill and not counting portal to be used. That alone is what truly makes the class so "OP" to much mobility , and aint cc break with an insane amount of up time on vigor. Just using those simple ability makes almost any build they have viable for either group fights or 1vs1. > > i started playing the class and i won't lie it's fun as hell running across the map with sword 1 ambush and blink then procing my heal for vigor for another sword 1 ambush. I'm gonna need more to go on than a 'a shitload of people were saying it i swear'. Yeah a whole 5 seconds of vigor from the heal is such high up time /s The only way to get very high uptime on Vigor is to constantly spam shatters and use your heal as soon as it's off cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > Remember all of those nerfs that Power Mirage got? Yeah, so do I. Just in case you need a refresher: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latest > > * Mirror Blade: Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW. > * Mental Anguish: Reduced bonus damage from 15% to 10% in PvP and from 30% to 20% in WvW. > * Confounding Suggestions: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW. > * Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW. > > And you are right, if condi mirage gets nerfed next week, mirage mains will likely shift to power mirage because it will be the only viable mirage build left, but that doesn't make it over-powered. No one said anything about nerfing it to completely unviable. We're talking about balance and bringing it inline with what other classes offer in the current game state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > > > > Remember all of those nerfs that Power Mirage got? Yeah, so do I. Just in case you need a refresher: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latest > > > > * Mirror Blade: Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW. > > * Mental Anguish: Reduced bonus damage from 15% to 10% in PvP and from 30% to 20% in WvW. > > * Confounding Suggestions: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW. > > * Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW. > > > > And you are right, if condi mirage gets nerfed next week, mirage mains will likely shift to power mirage because it will be the only viable mirage build left, but that doesn't make it over-powered. > > No one said anything about nerfing it to completely unviable. We're talking about balance and bringing it inline with what other classes offer in the current game state. Oh don't be ridiculous there's doubtlessly more people that want it to be nuked from orbit compared to the number of people that want reasonable nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > Remember all of those nerfs that Power Mirage got? Yeah, so do I. Just in case you need a refresher: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latest > > * Mirror Blade: Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW. > * Mental Anguish: Reduced bonus damage from 15% to 10% in PvP and from 30% to 20% in WvW. > * Confounding Suggestions: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW. > * Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW. > > And you are right, if condi mirage gets nerfed next week, mirage mains will likely shift to power mirage because it will be the only viable mirage build left, but that doesn't make it over-powered. Problem is none of those touch on the core of what makes mirage busted. There are three things going for them that combine to create a busted class: 1. Phantasm rework makes it so mesmers are no longer punished for mindless spam 2. Mesmers have extremely low cast times on their abilities 3. Mirage can invuln for the entire duration needed to dump-chain their whole skillbar on someone. It's not their damage that is the true problem. Avoiding mesmer shatters isn't too hard. Counting to 3 isn't hard. The problem is that when played by a competent player the class absolutely cannot die in any even numbered engagement unless the player makes a mistake, and they can unload 100% of their damage during this time. TL;DR of it is mes survivability needs a very serious balance pass. A class with the power of thief should not have the same attack-and-defend-same-time uptime as guardian ( in fact it's even longer ). As long as they have this, the class will always be OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > > Imo power mirage is fine, not sure why you're putting it at SSS tier > > > > > > Remember all those buffs that condi mirage got when Chrono bunker was nerfed? Yeah, neither do I. And yet condi became meta quite fast after Chrono got gut-punched - even though people were crying in the mesmer forums that condi mes needed buffs. > > > > > > > > > I guarantee you if all that happens this patch is condi spec of mirage gets nerfed and the root problems get ignored we will be seeing power mirage meta. Just like condi mirage wasn't played because it required two functioning braincells instead of the one functioning braincell of Chrono, the power version is only not being played because it requires three braincells. That's it. > > > > > > > Remember all of those nerfs that Power Mirage got? Yeah, so do I. Just in case you need a refresher: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latest > > > > * Mirror Blade: Reduced damage by 14% in PvP and WvW. > > * Mental Anguish: Reduced bonus damage from 15% to 10% in PvP and from 30% to 20% in WvW. > > * Confounding Suggestions: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW. > > * Compounding Power: Reduced the outgoing damage per stack from 3% to 2% in PvP and WvW. > > > > And you are right, if condi mirage gets nerfed next week, mirage mains will likely shift to power mirage because it will be the only viable mirage build left, but that doesn't make it over-powered. > > Problem is none of those touch on the core of what makes mirage busted. There are three things going for them that combine to create a busted class: > > 1. Phantasm rework makes it so mesmers are no longer punished for mindless spam > 2. Mesmers have extremely low cast times on their abilities > 3. Mirage can invuln for the entire duration needed to dump-chain their whole skillbar on someone. > > It's not their damage that is the true problem. Avoiding mesmer shatters isn't too hard. Counting to 3 isn't hard. The problem is that when played by a competent player the class absolutely cannot die in any even numbered engagement unless the player makes a mistake, and they can unload 100% of their damage during this time. > > TL;DR of it is mes survivability needs a very serious balance pass. A class with the power of thief should not have the same attack-and-defend-same-time uptime as guardian ( in fact it's even longer ). As long as they have this, the class will always be OP. > > Spam is something thieves can do, Mesmers can't 'spam' phantasms outside of Chronomancer and that's only passive recurrence, not spam. Extremely low would be a 1/4 second on everything. Every single Phantasm has at least 1/2 second of cast time, note that those are the only skills I mentioned since they're really the only particularly dangerous skills Mesmers have with a cast time. For your third point, sure you can blow Distortion or Mirage Cloak on covering your weapon skills, again the only particularly important skills to cover are Phantasms really so any other use of it is pretty much a waste if it's not used on the ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poseidon.3852 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 In my opinion, Mirage needs just 2 things to be balanced: * Slower Condi Application. Make is that they stack their condies slower.. not by much, of course, but lets say by 33%? And I don't mean increase the CDs, since that would hurt their play against anything that can clear condies, but rather scatter the condi aplication over abilities or whatever, honestly, just make it less... near to instantaneous. * Less Visual Clutter. With all the phantasms and clones and group fights and if there is more than one mesmer on the field... it is just unbearable. GW2 graphical design is just not made for this. It's awful. Fuck. Apart from that, I am really fine with everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Poseidon.3852" said: > In my opinion, Mirage needs just 2 things to be balanced: > > * Slower Condi Application. Make is that they stack their condies slower.. not by much, of course, but lets say by 33%? And I don't mean increase the CDs, since that would hurt their play against anything that can clear condies, but rather scatter the condi aplication over abilities or whatever, honestly, just make it less... near to instantaneous. > * Less Visual Clutter. With all the phantasms and clones and group fights and if there is more than one mesmer on the field... it is just unbearable. GW2 graphical design is just not made for this. It's awful. kitten. > > Apart from that, I am really fine with everything else. The first one would actually leave mirage basically untouched. If you have more skills applying condis but less of them any build that relys on a heavy cleanse skill rather than gradual cleanses would be threatened much more by this. And there are alot of those in the meta right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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