I wonder what was the original game plan for Environmental weapons?

[Knighthonor.4061]

I see so many of them in the game, and I collect a lot of them, but never really use them. I wonder what was the original game plan for this concept, and what road blocks changed them to what they are today, which is pretty much useless in most circumstances.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

They were close to useless since the start of the game so most likely no plan was involved at all.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> They were close to useless since the start of the game so most likely no plan was involved at all.

 

yes I am aware of that. but it was a feature hyped up before release, thats why I am curious what changed in the developer's design that lead them to change them from their original design to what we have today, and on launch, which is a useless feature.

[Airdive.2613]

I think "environmental" weapons (the ones that you pick up) were meant to be stronger, add flavor, but have less skills and break after a couple hits. Those, I think, could use some love in their current state.

"Bundles" that you can buy and carry in your bags, though, need not be any stronger: we really do not want them to become meta (so you get kicked unless you bring a stack of some obscure hylek blowguns).

[Carighan.6758]

Yeah, environmental weapons are a nice idea for adding lots of situational flavor.

 

They could even be used to great effect in WvW and PvP, but sadly they're virtually rubbish right now. :pensive:

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

They smell strongly of a feature that was added and then abandoned. Every MMORPG has at least one of them, and some have many.

 

Examples:

* SWTOR: "Family Tree"

* SWTOR: "railshooter" space combat missions

* SWTOR: Birthright gear

* GW2: Dignity/Ferocity/Charm personality system

* GW2: environmental weapons

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

If I remember correctly, long ago some were used in WvW. Like the rocks you could throw to stun someone. Very effective since it didn’t have a cooldown and could put someone in permanent stunlock while another person killed him.

[DeanBB.4268]

Maybe they decided to add them into the open world once they developed the Thief's steal ability? One of those, "Hey, this is nice, let's see what else we can do with it" moments?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> "Then we add environmental weapons to mix up combat even more. In the original GW you’d sometimes find a catapult or trebuchet that you could take over and fire at enemies. That’s one type of environmental weapon, and in GW2 we have dozens more. If a Stone Elemental throws a boulder at you, pick it up and throw it back. Or as an Elementalist, use that boulder to create a meteor storm. If you’re fighting an Oakheart with an axe and you manage to hack off a branch, pick up the branch and try using it as a weapon. If you meet a beekeeper outside town, buy a jar of bees from him and see what happens when you lob it at nearby enemies. If you come across a stash of powder kegs, don’t just blow them up in place, but try moving them to where they can do the most damage. If a centaur wheels a siege machine up to the outskirts of a village, don’t just destroy it; take it over and use it to turn the tide of battle."

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

 

Sounds like they were intended to be used to have fun by creating a more dynamic combat environment. Sounds like they were meant to offer an alternative to one's weapon skills. However, ANet didn't finish the system. Neither did they make the abilities that did make it into the game effective enough. Why? No one an say for sure. For many years, ANet answered questions as to when GW2 would launch with, "When it's ready." I suspect that as NCSoft poured more and more money into the game's development, they reached a point where they told ANet, "It needs to be ready now."

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > They were close to useless since the start of the game so most likely no plan was involved at all.

>

> yes I am aware of that. but it was a feature hyped up before release, thats why I am curious what changed in the developer's design that lead them to change them from their original design to what we have today, and on launch, which is a useless feature.

 

Ba-bow. @"Knighthonor.4061" is completely wrong: they were absolutely intended to be useful and desirable. Unfortunately, in testing in the real world it turned out ... they kind of suck to play with, unfortunately. So, they were mostly relegated to uselessness in the same way that, eg, racial skills are as a rule less useful than class skills.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> They smell strongly of a feature that was added and then abandoned. Every MMORPG has at least one of them, and some have many.

>

> Examples:

> * SWTOR: "Family Tree"

> * SWTOR: "railshooter" space combat missions

> * SWTOR: Birthright gear

> * GW2: Dignity/Ferocity/Charm personality system

> * GW2: environmental weapons

 

Things that are great on paper, but can't be field tested easily, and turn out to be actually quite terrible ideas once you ship them. It isn't just MMOs that suffer these. ;)

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > They were close to useless since the start of the game so most likely no plan was involved at all.

> >

> > yes I am aware of that. but it was a feature hyped up before release, thats why I am curious what changed in the developer's design that lead them to change them from their original design to what we have today, and on launch, which is a useless feature.

>

> Ba-bow. @"Knighthonor.4061" is completely wrong: they were absolutely intended to be useful and desirable. Unfortunately, in testing in the real world it turned out ... they kind of suck to play with, unfortunately. So, they were mostly relegated to uselessness in the same way that, eg, racial skills are as a rule less useful than class skills.

 

Environmental weapons had contextual relevance. No matter what class you were, it could always be used for a given effect. In a lot of ways, this mirrors the intent of the Theif's Steal skills, offering an extra tool to use against the enemy.

 

The problem ultimately comes down to an issue with mechanical processes. Bundles are unwieldy due to the huge amount of latency to activate on pick up, and has only gotten worse as server performance slows or becomes unstable. Even native bundles (like Engineer Kits) slow down play substantially when latency is high, killing the momentum of skill chains. If you've been in WvW in the past 2 years, sudden spikes in server load can cause skills misfire, or not even let the client activate them. Its hard to have a fight when it takes 10 seconds for skill to respond to your inputs, or have 10 seconds of queued up damage drop on you all at once.

 

Bundle items have also become grossly outdated in that there were designed to have incredibly strong face value effects, but it turns out basic buildcraft is able to quickly pace it. You'll notice the only time players will ever care for these items is when they have access to Hard CCs the player might be short on. Beyond that, a well setup skill chain will deal enough damage to render the threat moot. And in the case of Especs, they have enough inline CCs to shutdown anything in Core Tyria, with extreme prejudice. When lower leveled, bundle items are actually quite useful to add a quick burst of damage or hard CCs to shut an enemy down.... but by the time you have enough traits and stats to have a competent build, it force multiplies many of your attacks to insane levels. Since bundle items would interfere with your much stronger "build", there no very few practical reasons to actually use them.

 

The idea of environmental weapons are great on paper....... but everything else in the game power creeps far above it. And it would actually work, had the game's buildcraft not been designed to scale the way it does.