castlemanic.3198 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > Well, what you think of it doesn't really matter, what they said is what they said, and technically any human could have done it. > > As for Kormir being blessed, the gods outright say in that quote that they are always watching, and make no mention of actually doing anything like blessing Kormir specifically. Them giving her their "blessing" is them saying is the more common use of the phrase, meaning, we are giving you the OK to do something. What they said is totally in line with many, **many** fantasy tropes of "traits that enable the hero to become power/receive a gift that allows them to overcome their enemy". So yes, interpretation can and does have a place in here. "Only the most courageous people can pull godric's sword out of the sorting hat", that sort of thing is a *staple* of fantasy, and taking it at it's face value is not the only interpretation of the matter at hand. Besides, Bloodstone Fen has a ton of people who couldn't handle a smaller amount of magic than the power of Abaddon, thus disputing your very claim. As for Kormir and the extra nod from the five, it's *very* clear that she did make a choice only a mortal can make, to ascend to godhood. That is specifically what that statement is about. No god can ascend to godhood, because by their very nature, they cannot ascend to be what they already are, they could not absorb the essence of abaddon because they had their own domains to handle. So it's wholly appropriate to identify that statement with that action and declare that Kormir, a human who, according to all evidence in GW2 since episode 1 of season 3, could not normally absorb the power of a god, was able to absorb the power of Abaddon through divine intervention, labeled as a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > Besides, Bloodstone Fen has a ton of people who couldn't handle a smaller amount of magic than the power of Abaddon, thus disputing your very claim. That doesn't dispute anything, just because humans can do it doesn't mean every human can do it well, or do it without going power mad. Whats with all these stupid and terrible extremism fallacies you keep throwing out where it has to be all or nothing every time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > Whats with all these stupid and terrible extremism fallacies you keep throwing out where it has to be all or nothing every time? When you just used that same tactic for "they said what they said", alongside saying it couldn't be menzies or lazarus in finality as well? Nah, I'm done with this convo. You want to ignore lore, that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyuDragnier.9476 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > Whats with all these stupid and terrible extremism fallacies you keep throwing out where it has to be all or nothing every time? > > When you just used that same tactic for "they said what they said", alongside saying it couldn't be menzies or lazarus in finality as well? > > Nah, I'm done with this convo. You want to ignore lore, that's fine. I have an actual question...how many GW2 players have actually played GW1 or even know the lore to GW1? Just wondering at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @RyuDragnier.9476 said: > I have an actual question...how many GW2 players have actually played GW1 or even know the lore to GW1? Just wondering at this point. I don't think there's a way of accurately finding out that number. That, however, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, as it's important for the writers to adhere to already established lore even when presenting it in a sequel. The writers have shown they're capable of looking back at GW1 lore, adapting it to fit into GW2 lore without causing too many bumps in the road, and the ability to explain what GW2 players may have missed about GW1 in a concise manner. That should be their goal, and they did a lot of work to try and make it all check out, but there are some glaring mistakes, one of which being Balthazar being an antagonist when it could have easily been another character that was also established in GW1 that would have fit the bill even better. There are other examples that I can't think of as well, but basically the plot of path of fire was a poorly made rehash of a GW1 story that was made to shove in new lore while cutting out a lot of old lore so that they no longer have to adhere to it, similar things happened with season 3 (especially episode 6, my god), and it also happened somewhat in heart of thorns as well (though they had to cut content core to GW2 as well, so it had it's own issues). It keeps happening that they take old lore, ruin or destroy the bits that don't fall into the narrative they want to tell, and then present it as fact, which hurts the community dedicated to the lore of the franchise, not just the lore of GW2. It seems especially worrisome that they'd rather rely on a character more well known in GW2 as an antagonist where that character was previously a good person, when there's a perfect replacement with more lore justifications for the exact behaviours taken. I can't stress enough how annoying it is to have lore you're dedicated to being ruined by writers who'd rather not be 'restricted' by the lore previously established. It has nothing to do with how many players played gw1 and everything to do with consistency in storytelling across a franchise, and this is ignoring what I call 'required shifts' in lore to improve storytelling, even if it steps on the toes of old lore (GW1 was human only, GW2 now has 5 playable races so the mostly human centric lore needed to be shifted accordingly, how well that was done is up for debate). Guild Wars 2 is far, far from the only game where it happens (the only other franchise I care about more than GW2 is warcraft, and there's some horrible, *horrible* shifts in lore that happens there, even from within World of Warcraft itself, not just lore from previous games, and again excluding 'required shifts'), but as this is a gw2 forum, such is where we dedicate our efforts into exploring and discovering what's cool and what's ultimately ruined from previously established lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > Are we still debating the fact of whether a mursaat could absorb the energy of a Bloodstone shard? The entire plot of Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful were that a mursaat _needed_ to absorb the energy collected from Bloodstones in order to regenerate, which means that there was a huge Chekov's Gun hanging on the wall foreshadowing the future event of Lazarus absorbing the power of an exploding Bloodstone. At the end of Stronghold of the Faithful we saw a stasis chamber that had numerous slots in it where Bloodstone fragments were meant to fit, and in the center (where all of the energy was going) was a relief where a mursaat-shaped body would have fit. If the writers had decided to stick with Lazarus as the main antagonist then they would have had so many flags pointing in that direction that it would have made perfect sense. > They only did that because Balthazar was faking them out. Do you have any facts to back that up? [The Dragon's Reach: Part 1](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dragon%27s_Reach:_Part_1 "The Dragon's Reach: Part 1") was released on July 29, 2014, which was the 30th of Scion, 1327. That is the absolute earliest date for Balthazar's release because that is when Rytlock first entered the Mists in search of his sword. Caudecus became the Confessor of the White Mantle in 1325, so two years before Balthazar could have even potentially been released. Also, here is a long list of documented events that would have taken place chronologically prior to Balthazar's release. From the research journal of Grand Savant Valis the Learned: >! 86 Zephyr, 1325 AE >! At last, a reply to our request has arrived. The confessor has authorized our work to harness the great stone's power. The research is contingent upon making progress toward his primary goals of weapon development and strengthening our army. For the edification of future generations of our sacred order, I have resolved to fully journal our undertakings. >! >! 14 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! Our grand goal is to unlock the power contained within the bloodstone, for a two-fold purpose. The first, ordered by the confessor himself, is to retake humanity's birthright and secure our homeland in Kryta using the power of the bloodstone. The second, ordered by High Inquisitor Xera, is to awaken our wounded god, the Dire. The first step in the process is learning about the stone itself so we can research ways to harvest the magic within. >! >! 25 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! Notes on the bloodstone—scholarly opinions vary, but most agree that the stone is ancient, perhaps even having existed prior to the advent of humanity on this world. Our research suggest the stones were created by an ancient race known as the Seers, blood enemies of the Unseen Ones. It's fitting that we'll use their stones to bring the Unseen Ones back to glory! The stone is one of five of the original bloodstone, and it contains a vast supply of magic slowly seeping back into the world. If someone could tap it all at once, they'd be quite powerful. >! >! 60 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! Aside from its primary purpose as a repository of magic, there are measurable phenomena that occur in proximity to the bloodstone. The spirits of those killed on the stone are held within its energy field, unable to depart. In history, these souls were forced into auxiliary storage devices by our ancestors. But it was for the bloodstone's magic that generations fought wars to determine who would control it. Even the Chosen could not stay away. once freed from their prison at the Door of Komalie, many seem to have returned. They've been seen haunting near the bloodstone. >! >! 5 Scion, 1325 AE >! The initial task of safely removing fragments from the stone for study has begun. Cracking the outer shell proved...challenging. Not only did it require great force, but once we were through the outer shell, the drilling team was vaporized by a blast of red light. Thank the Unseen Ones for slave labor! Once the commotion was over, I peered through the shell's crack and beheld the most beautiful of sights. Beyond the relatively dull and rock-like outer shell of the bloodstone lies a great field of blood red crystals, not unlike a geode. We have begun removing these crystal shards for further research and development. >! >! 40 Scion, 1325 AE >! Our long vigil over the stone has given us important insight. Over time, the stone has grown larger as events excite the magic it contains—much like a balloon expands when heated. The stone is nearly three times larger than it was when we first reclaimed it from the jungle. Even more impressive, crystals have recently begun growing on the exterior of the hole we drilled in the shell. They continue to expand outward. This is a great boon, as it has made harvesting bloodstone shards that much easier. >! >! 60 Zephyr, 1326 AE >! Progress is slow. My research on the harvested bloodstone shards has nearly stalled completely. The fragments refuse all attempts to extract their magic in an efficient manner. Slow-diffusing magic will not serve our purposes. Unseen ones, guide my thoughts that i might find the answers! The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone. This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr! >! >! 24 Scion, 1326 AE >! Utilizing fragments as basic ritual implements is fruitless and not significantly superior to traditional foci. Crafting weapons directly from the materials exhibits only minor phenomena. Powdering the fragments (methods detailed in footnote 27b) further reduces its properties, rendering it as useful as dirt. Consuming said powder proved... ill-advised. I am reduced to believing we require a key to unlock the power. I have reached out to my contacts in the inquest and spies within the Durmand Priory. They may have access to information I don't. The justiciar has ordered me to package and deliver any bloodstone dust created in the shard extraction process. Our benefactors want to trade it for additional weapons and wares for our army. I would protest, but it's basically worthless to me anyway. >! >! 65 Scion, 1326 AE >! Thank the Unseen Ones, we have finally had a breakthrough! There was a small slave revolt that was quickly contained by our zealots. In the chaos, one of the dissidents was impaled upon a bloodstone shard. And yet he did not die. His body seemed to...accommodate the intrusion. We've been going about this all wrong. Our methods have proven fruitless because we were not going far enough. We will immediately shift our focus to the fusion of bloodstone and flesh. If we're successful in this endeavor, perhaps the justiciar will get off my back about powering the jade constructs. I know it's a shame they've sat powerless for centuries, but come on. >! >! 45 Phoenix, 1327 AE >! Inquisitor Matthias Gabrel has volunteered for the bloodstone-empowerment procedure. His piety and courage are both inspiring and ideal qualities for this great work. Specially prepared shards of the stone will be used. Please find diagrams of the intended attached. He will travel north to the keep on the morrow and will perform the procedure once preparations are complete. We haven't yet found the key to harvesting magic from the shards. This is the missing piece of the puzzle. My only regret is that I won't be there to oversee the experiment, but my place is here with the bloodstone. From the Memoirs of Justiciar Bauer: >! 75 Zephyr, 1325 AE >! I have forwarded Valis's request to begin his research on the bloodstone on the confessor. Knowing the confessor's priorities, I emphasized the potential weaponization of the bloodstone's power and mentioned Operation Rebirth as only a secondary objective. I hate to be dishonest about our true intentions, but I am sure a faithful servant of the Unseen Ones such as the confessor will be forgiven when face-to-face with our god! >! >! 86 Zephyr, 1325 AE >! As anticipated, the confessor was most intrigued about the potential war uses of bloodstone magic and has approved our research project. We're moving more foot soldiers and materials from Fort Vandal to the area surrounding the bloodstone and the nearby keep. >! >! 24 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! These researchers are trying my patience! They're down there reading books instead of making real progress on the project. I don't need them to write a thesis about it, I just need them to arm my troops with weapons that will give us an edge! How hard can it be? >! >! 75 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! "We need more books!" they cry. "We need more candles to read our books!" Whiny scholars are the bane of my existence! We didn't embed spies within every scholarly organization in Tyria just to steal new reading material to help put them to sleep at night! I swear, if any agent's cover is blown stealing an armful of moldy books, it will be someone's head! >! >! 75 Scion, 1325 AE >! They actually accomplished something, instead of just sitting around reading and debating ancient artifacts. Now there is a big hole in the bloodstone. However, I still have no practical magic, neither for my weapons nor for Operation Rebirth. I fail to see how that is actual "progress." So, to make a point, I put one of the lead researchers on the bloodstone... and executed him. Maybe his blood will wake that stupid rock up. At the very least, that's one less whiny scholar I need to listen to... >! >! 75 Colossus, 1325 AE >! The slaves we brought in are getting bold. There have been a few minor cases of insubordination. No full-scale revolt, but some of those assigned around the bloodstone tend to grow mad with fury and attack their guards. It's probably due to the endless babbling of those damned scholars; it's starting to drive me mad! >! >! 82 Phoenix, 1326 AE >! Xera is asking for an update on progress for Operation Rebirth. The confessor is demanding the same on his weapons. Meanwhile, two of those scholars were arguing over who wrote a stupid set of notes. I flipped a coin and ordered the loser executed. Hopefully that will light a fire under them! If not, I will literally light a fire. Under one of them. >! >! 65 Scion, 1326 AE >! The entire bloodstone-harvesting team revolted today, and we had to have the guards put them down. A few ingrates tried to run off with bloodstone shards. Valis claims they had a major breakthrough during the chaos. Perhaps we should kill more slaves if that's what it takes for them to get any work done! I have ordered an increase in whippings until morale is improved. >! >! 48 Phoenix, 1327 AE >! It disgusts me that I have to work with those filthy Inquest asura, but they possess information we need. Once we've reclaimed our birthright in Kryta, we can turn our attention to repositioning humanity where it belongs—ruling over or eradicating these lesser beings. Risking our agent in the Durmand Priory seems to have paid off. They got those scholars some crusty old artifacts that have finally gotten the juices flowing! I know the confessor, though. He won't be happy until something that can deliver the queen's head to him in a box, fully armed and operational. From the diary of Apprentice Kassandra: >! 12 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! I have arrived at the bloodstone to begin my apprenticeship under Valis. It's an honor to work on a project so critical to the Order, though I must admit my mentor seems a bit... eccentric. Geniuses are often a little odd, so I go into the project with great enthusiasm and optimism! >! >! 16 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! I'd be lying if I said I didn't expect my assignment to be a bit more, let's just say, scientific. Instead of assisting on actual research, I've been given menial tasks like serving tea, delivering mail, and helping prepare lunch for the garrison. I'm starting to think I'll need to come in after hours if I want to accomplish any research of my own and get that "real-world work experience" I was promised. >! >! 29 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! If I'm asked to carry another dusty tome to those bickering poseurs, I swear to the Unseen Ones, I will burn the garrison down! While they argue over whether the false gods, the Seers, or King Adelbern's great-granduncle's cat forged the stone, I've been coming in at night to do my own research. Of course they won't listen to me even if I do make a discovery, so I've begun mixing my notes in with the notes of the research team. I have no doubt they won't hesitate to take credit for someone else's discoveries. Insufferable hacks! >! >! 45 Phoenix, 1325 AE >! As anticipated, that brown-noser Phill was quick to take credit for my discovery regarding the spirits that are attracted to it, who can't seem to leave it behind and pass on. Hard to imagine that anyone killed on the bloodstone could still be nearby, tethered for eternity to the bloodstone's magic. The Chosen must've returned when they were freed at the Door of Komalie. What confusion or purpose would compel them to return to the place of their sacrifice? What binds them here? Bloodstone must be as much a drug for them as it is for the living. Their energy adds to the vortex of magic surrounding the bloodstone. Their deaths are a necessary sacrifice for the glory of the Unseen Ones, but a shame nevertheless. >! >! 2 Scion, 1325 AE >! I fear there could be a catastrophic event if Valis continues with his plan to break through the shell of the bloodstone. Everything I've read about the bloodstone suggests that it holds an unimaginable amount of magic. Up to now, it has held strong... for millennia even. But if the shell is broken? Let's just hope the entire continent isn't blown up the second we crack the shell. >! >! 7 Scion, 1325 AE >! Justiciar Bauer executed another research-team leader today for "displaying a lack of progress." He even had him killed atop the bloodstone since there was "no sense in wasting the power of a perfectly good soul." This is blasphemy! No faithful servant of the Unseen Ones deserves to be leashed to a stone for eternity just because they have unreachable goals and an unrealistic schedule! >! >! 60 Scion, 1325 AE >! Well we didn't blow up Tyria, but as I feared, the bloodstone is no longer able to contain its power. Bloodstone crystals have sprouted outside the core stone, and you can feel the magic seeping from the hole those idiots carved into the stone's shell. The fool Valis thinks this is valuable since it makes harvesting the shards easier, but I think he is toying with a power he neither understands nor respects. >! >! 27 Phoenix, 1326 AE >! I couldn't keep my concerns about the leaking bloodstone magic to myself any longer, so I revealed to Valis that I had been working after hours. This nearly cost me my head, but when I proved to Valis that Phill's self-claimed discoveries were actually mine, it cost Phill his head instead. As a result, I've been permitted to join the research team proper. You can get your own tea now, you hacks! Despite this good news, my warnings continue to fall on deaf ears. >! >! 65 Scion, 1326 AE >! This is too much! Some slave came in and fell upon a shard. He bled all over my workstation! If that weren't bad enough, the wound reacted oddly to the shard, and this has led Valis down a dark path. He hopes to embed bloodstone shards in human test subjects to power them from within. That's both unethical and exceptionally dangerous! I can't believe the higher-ups are permitting this! >! >! 52 Phoenix, 1327 AE >! I hate to admit it, but Savant Valis seems to have finally gotten something right. The artifacts we liberated from the Durmand Priory were, in fact, the key required to draw the magic out of the bloodstone shards. The Seers must have anticipated our need to tap the magic within the bloodstone, and this device may be what they used to do so. I had hoped this would abort Valis's plan with Matthias, but it seems to have instead accelerated the timetable of that disgusting experiment. May the Unseen Ones at least give him a quick release should the process warp his mind as I anticipate. So no, it is chronologically impossible for Balthazar to have engineered the entire White Mantle plot to resurrect Lazarus using the Bloodstone's power. They had already been working on it for over two years by the time it even became possible in the narrative for Balthazar to be involved. According to the correspondences found in Caudecus Manor, the White Mantle had already discovered some of Lazarus' aspects and had a lead on where his "refuge" was, referring to the last known location of either his body or where he split his aspects. Balthazar hadn't even entered the story at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > So no, it is chronologically impossible for Balthazar to have engineered the entire White Mantle plot to resurrect Lazarus using the Bloodstone's power. They never needed the Bloodstone's power to resurrect Lazarus, as seen in-game, when we do resurrect him, and all we needed was his five aspects, and the ritual. Also, its mentioned in the last wing of the raid that Lazarus either escaped, or was killed(which we OFC find out he wasn't.) And Xera mentions preventing you form reaching "him" during the fight. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stronghold_of_the_Faithful After interacting with the Stasis Chamber: Character name: We caused an unstable reaction when we destroyed the bloostone shards. Character name: Did Lazarus escape? Or was he killed in the process? What happened here? "Lazarus" was already resurrected, and trying to use bloodstone magic to gain power, before we went into the last part of the raid. > @castlemanic.3198 said: >basically the plot of path of fire was a poorly made rehash of a GW1 story that was made to shove in new lore while cutting out a lot of old lore so that they no longer have to adhere to it, similar things happened with season 3 (especially episode 6, my god), and it also happened somewhat in heart of thorns as well (though they had to cut content core to GW2 as well, so it had it's own issues). It keeps happening that they take old lore, ruin or destroy the bits that don't fall into the narrative they want to tell, and then present it as fact, which hurts the community dedicated to the lore of the franchise, not just the lore of GW2. It seems especially worrisome that they'd rather rely on a character more well known in GW2 as an antagonist where that character was previously a good person, when there's a perfect replacement with more lore justifications for the exact behaviours taken. I like this hilarious misrepresentation that PoE, or anything Anet has done, has been to cut away GW1 lore that they don't like, when it is demonstrably the opposite. The only thing Anet has done is taken the story in a way you didn't want, which is not the same as ruining the lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > So no, it is chronologically impossible for Balthazar to have engineered the entire White Mantle plot to resurrect Lazarus using the Bloodstone's power. > They never needed the Bloodstone's power to resurrect Lazarus, as seen in-game, when we do resurrect him, and all they needed was his five aspects, and the ritual. Minus the ritual, apparently. Character name: So, what's the plan? Exemplar Kerida: Let's spread the aspects out so we can watch them. Would you mind? Character name: Do we have to do some kind of spell? Exemplar Kerida: Not according to legend. The fact that the aspects are all in proximity should trigger them to merge... any time now. So really, all they needed to do was stick them together in close proximity to each other and _voila_ instant mursaat resurrection. ...Except they did have all of them and Balthazar couldn't have stopped them from putting the puzzle pieces together until 1327 at the earliest. And Justiciar Bauer was clearly lying to Caudecus the whole time, as noted in his memoirs, and wouldn't have stolen an aspect because he was secretly very pro-mursaat resurrection. Like I've been saying, it's entirely possible that this story is not logically consistent. They started off by foreshadowing one story ending, (I.e. Lazarus being resurrected by the power of the Bloodstone + souls stolen from hapless victims), and ended with another, (I.e. "Just nudge the pieces together, I'm sure the White Mantle _NEVER_ tried that...") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > ...Except they did have all of them Except they didn't because Caudecus, as he mentions, found one of them before Xera did, and had it replaced. You know, the whole reason why he accused Lazarus of being fake in the first place? And we know he DID in fact have one replaced because we find the REAL one later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > ...Except they did have all of them > Except they didn't because Caudecus, as he mentions, found one of them before Xera did, and had it replaced. You know, the whole reason why he accused Lazarus of being fake in the first place? And we know he DID in fact have one replaced because we find the REAL one later on. Caudecus did not find any of the aspects before Xera. We know this from the correspondences found inside Caudecus Manor. Confessor, It wasn't easy, but I managed to swap the artifacts as you requested—just in time, too. Xera took off north without so much as a word. I wish I could be there when the smug zealot's ritual fails, when her followers turn on her and come crawling back to us. Perhaps I'll allow some to return. But most will be fed to the bloodstone. I'm sure you've delayed your relocation to the queen's palace for as long as you can, so I'll find a way to get in touch with you there going forward. Until then, Confessor. —Justiciar Bauer His entire plot rested on Bauer swapping the artifacts, which he would never have done because he was faithful to the Unseen despite what Caudecus believed. But since we're talking about story inconsistencies, where did the body go? From the Wiki: "Stasis Chamber is an object found in the Temple of Awakening, accessed once Xera is defeated. Upon interacting with it, the characters learn that this stasis chamber was used to hold Lazarus, the last of the mursaat." Interacting with the Stasis Chamber: "The stasis chamber is hot to the touch, with a recess in the center that appears large enough to accommodate a body. Charged bloodstones seem to be focusing magic to one spot. Ley energy seeps from the top of the device, as if the connection to Xera's bloodstones was severed." Interacting with the Spent Shards: "The bloodstone shards give odd a slight glow and mild heat. They appear to be mostly devoid of magic, though a residual trace of energy can be felt." According to the new narrative, the White Mantle were sacrificing people and shoving energy into this machine which didn't even contain a body. And yet, it was clearly built to contain a body and whoever wrote the Wiki article clearly suggested that it was, for a fact, used to contain the body of Lazarus the Dire. Could the editor be wrong? Perhaps, but everything we knew about the story up until Episode 4 suggested that there absolutely should have been a body held in stasis in the Temple of Awakening and infused fragments of Bloodstone were being channeled into it. The new narrative tells us that there was never a body there and the White Mantle were channeling energy into...thin air. Does that make sense? I say no, it sounds like the people who designed the raid were not on the same page as whoever wrote the last three episodes of Season 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > Caudecus did not find any of the aspects before Xera. We know this from the correspondences found inside Caudecus Manor. He found them via his agents. >His entire plot rested on Bauer swapping the artifacts, which he would never have done because he was faithful to the Unseen despite what Caudecus believed. Except he wasn't, his own memoirs show he wasn't. The only time he shows any real devotion to the Mursaat was in the very first entry. After that, he complains about not having any practical magic for his weapons, and mentions operation rebirth as a secondary thing, and he has Inquisitor Matthias basically kill himself because he was tired of listening to all his talk of scripture, and because there was no way he could go to war like Caudacus wanted with Mathias judging every move he makes. His own memoirs make it clear he changed sides at some point after the first entry, which was made in 75 Zephyr, 1325 AE, years before the last aspect was supposedly found. And it appears he switched sides sometime before 7 Scion, 1325 based on the entry he made on that date. Your entire argument is based on the false notion that Bauer was devoted, when he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > Your entire argument is based on the false notion that Bauer was devoted, when he wasn't. He wasn't what, now? 75 Zephyr, 1325 AE I have forwarded Valis's request to begin his research on the bloodstone on the confessor. Knowing the confessor's priorities, I emphasized the potential weaponization of the bloodstone's power and mentioned Operation Rebirth as only a secondary objective. I hate to be dishonest about our true intentions, but I am sure a faithful servant of the Unseen Ones such as the confessor will be forgiven when face-to-face with our god! 2 Zephyr, 1329 AE Our supreme leader arrived today. We have been ordered to tell no one for fear that interlopers will interrupt his grand plan. The moment of our vengeance is at hand. Nothing will stand in the way of the White Mantle. We shall claim our birthright—first in Kryta and then the world. Glory to the Unseen Ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > 75 Zephyr, 1325 AE > I have forwarded Valis's request to begin his research on the bloodstone on the confessor. Knowing the confessor's priorities, I emphasized the potential weaponization of the bloodstone's power and mentioned Operation Rebirth as only a secondary objective. I hate to be dishonest about our true intentions, but I am sure a faithful servant of the Unseen Ones such as the confessor will be forgiven when face-to-face with our god! The first entry, as I mentioned previously. You do however conveniently ignore > 7 Scion, 1325 >They actually accomplished something, instead of just sitting around reading and debating ancient artifacts. Now there is a big hole in the bloodstone. However, I still have no practical magic, neither for my weapons nor for Operation Rebirth. I fail to see how that is actual "progress." So, to make a point, I put one of the lead researchers on the bloodstone... and executed him. Maybe his blood will wake that stupid rock up. At the very least, that's one less whiny scholar I need to listen to... He mentions the weapons as being his, and mentioned the rebirth project secondary, but according to his original log, he didn't care about the weapons, nor Caudecus's plan. If he still believed that, he would have said "However, I still have no practical magic, neither for Operation Rebirth, or the Confessor's weapons", and would have treated the weapons program with the secondary, and dismissive, attitude he does the rebirth project in the actual in-game log entry. He also mentions here >72 Phoenix, 1328 AE >Inquisitor Matthias has always been a thorn in my side. He's constantly questioning the devotion of my troops with his damned inquisitions, ensuring everything we do "brings honor and glory to the Unseen Ones." I can't go to war with someone judging every tactical decision I make against their scripture! It didn't take too much to convince him what an honor it would be to sacrifice his body for the glory of the Unseen Ones. Let him stab a bloodstone into his heart or whatever suits him. Either it fails and he dies, or it succeeds and he dies on the frontlines where I'll send him! That he wants to get rid of Matthias because of his constant inquisitions, and scripture BS, which is going to get in the way of the war that Caudecus was planning. From this, we can determine he was a believer, then he wasn't because Caudecus convinced him to change sides, during his time working for Caudecus, he switched the aspect like ordered, but when Xera seemingly did resurrect Lazarus despite this, he switched sides again to be on the "winning" side. Bauer was never really devout, he just went with whoever seemed the best side at the time... you know, like how most of the Mantle did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > From this, we can determine he was a believer, then he wasn't because Caudecus convinced him to change sides, during his time working for Caudecus, he switched the aspect like ordered, but when Xera seemingly did resurrect Lazarus despite this, he switched sides again to be on the "winning" side. So he switched the aspect, and then wasn't the slightest bit confused when Lazarus came downstairs to partake in the ritual in the caverns below the Bloodstone? 14 Zephyr, 1329 AE Once the ritual is complete, we can proceed with our leader's virtuous pursuits! Virtuous pursuits? Where does that sound familiar.... Lazarus: The human seat of power and its current monarch are inconsequential. We are destined to face more virtuous pursuits. What you're suggesting is highly improbable. If Bauer swapped the aspects then there is no way that he wouldn't have reacted to Lazarus suddenly appearing, and we do know it was Lazarus down there in the caverns. (Or Balthazus, whichever name strikes your fancy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > So he switched the aspect, and then wasn't the slightest bit confused when Lazarus came downstairs to partake in the ritual in the caverns below the Bloodstone? He most likely was, but Lazarus was there in front of him, or at least he believed. The game makes it painfully clear most of the white Mantle has really no idea how the Mursaat, or their constructs and rituals, worked. They are just going off ancient legend and hearsay at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miriforst.1290 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Well it certainly is a mess isn't it? Balthazar, the most important entity in the franchise (even the deity for pvp, and you know all combat of which there is a lot) is reduced to a irredeemable mustache twirling missile silo bond villain (all that was missing is for him to kill all the players cats in the home instance out of fun). You know it is okay to have morally grey villains, we dodn't need to always have the moral high ground in everything (or atleast know without a doubt that we are in the right 100% of the time). Here's a thing that's bugging me. Since i can't relate anything of the gw2 balthaddon as you cleverly call it to the mythical gw1 balthazar i only have the material presented in gw2, or especially PoF and the end of season 3 to explain "him" (or it since he has about as much of a personality as a table lamp). Balthazar might as well have been an elder dragon. **And so far even Scarlett briar have had more character development. Even Scarlett had a better explanation for her motives (and her descent into crazy is logged even if its post mortem). What was considered a paper thin and comically bad villain by most of the community was still a better villain than the big b man himself (and she actually accomplished things). Yep.** Also poor zaishen, heroes reduced to event fodder minions. Regarding the allied characters i realized that they are there just to project different player mindsets (we have the edgelord, the sarcastic joker and the goody two shoes). Remember fallout 4 with its three dialog options? Yes! No! (but yes...) Sarcastic. Now the thing with the fallout 4 options was that they often converged to the same result, leading to few actual branches like FNV and the like. And here we get all three flavors tossed in for every event and let the player pick one to sympathize with (but lets not give them any real choice). I wonder if they intended for there to be more choices like the one where you pick between sunspears, neutral or joko. There's that lady who tells me i made a good choice when i killed balthazar and i end up feeling "what choice? I got pointed in his direction by taimis plot machines and told by everyone to kill him until dead and a bit further." Also dont tell me glint didn't want us to kill kralky because that's exactly what she did. She even pointed out where they would deliver the "killing blow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @miriforst.1290 said: > **And so far even Scarlett briar have had more character development. Even Scarlett had a better explanation for her motives (and her descent into crazy is logged even if its post mortem). What was considered a paper thin and comically bad villain by most of the community was still a better villain than the big b man himself (and she actually accomplished things). Yep.** Not really, Balthazar's actions make far more sense then Scarlett's. Scarlett just so happened to have her mind influenced by Mordremoth, who wasn't even awake, and who was almost as far away from her as one can be while still being in central Tyira, and when no other Sylvari had the same call until then, because she sat in a machine that gave her a vision of the eternal alchemy... which doesn't even really make sense from a logical standpoint because the totality of existence is an abstract, and not something you can actually see to begin with. On the other hand, Balthazar wanted to war with the Elder Dragons, just like past lore has shown he wanted to war with ANYTHING he found interesting(this is the same guy who basically wanted to genocide all of Tyira when humanity first arrived), but was then denied what is LITERALLY his nature, had all his powers stripped from him, and was disowned by the very beings he considered his friends for millennia, and was locked away in a dank armpit of the Mists, to waste away there for all time, all because he wanted to do the very thing his sphere of power was about. Yeah, truly no motivation or backstory for why he did what he did(note the massive sarcasm) What happened to Balthazar Is like, if gravity had a physical incarnation, but then the physical incarnations of space, time, and light, were like "No, you can't pull things down gravity" and then people wonder why gravity gets pissed and tries to do it anyway. It's literally what he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn.9245 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @miriforst.1290 said: > > **And so far even Scarlett briar have had more character development. Even Scarlett had a better explanation for her motives (and her descent into crazy is logged even if its post mortem). What was considered a paper thin and comically bad villain by most of the community was still a better villain than the big b man himself (and she actually accomplished things). Yep.** > Not really, Balthazar's actions make far more sense then Scarlett's. Scarlett just so happened to have her mind influenced by Mordremoth, who wasn't even awake, and who was almost as far away from her as one can be while still being in central Tyira, and when no other Sylvari had the same call until then, because she sat in a machine that gave her a vision of the eternal alchemy... which doesn't even really make sense from a logical standpoint because the totality of existence is an abstract, and not something you can actually see to begin with. The issue isn't making sense, the issue is understanding the motives, and ability to accomplish goals. > > On the other hand, Balthazar wanted to war with the Elder Dragons, just like past lore has shown he wanted to war with ANYTHING he found interesting(this is the same guy who basically wanted to genocide all of Tyira when humanity first arrived), but was then denied what is LITERALLY his nature, had all his powers stripped from him, and was disowned by the very beings he considered his friends for millennia, and was locked away in a dank armpit of the Mists, to waste away there for all time, all because he wanted to do the very thing his sphere of power was about. Yeah, truly no motivation or backstory for why he did what he did(note the massive sarcasm) There is a huge difference between WAR and GENOCIDE. War is about tactics and strategy - liking war is similar to liking a live version of chess. Yes there is also the visceral aspect, but it isn't just about body count otherwise a "War" god would go around the world simply blasting every area: boom, everyone dead, done. If a god simply wants to kill things that /= "war", that = psychopathy. Also those who go to war have to strike a balance between choosing a war they can win, but also *not* choosing a war where winning = losing (like Total Nuclear War or killing the Elder Dragons). And Balthazar isn't supposed to be just a powerful entity who likes war, but a god of the humans which implies caring in some way about those who worship you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miriforst.1290 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Djinn.9245 said: > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > > @miriforst.1290 said: > > > **And so far even Scarlett briar have had more character development. Even Scarlett had a better explanation for her motives (and her descent into crazy is logged even if its post mortem). What was considered a paper thin and comically bad villain by most of the community was still a better villain than the big b man himself (and she actually accomplished things). Yep.** > > Not really, Balthazar's actions make far more sense then Scarlett's. Scarlett just so happened to have her mind influenced by Mordremoth, who wasn't even awake, and who was almost as far away from her as one can be while still being in central Tyira, and when no other Sylvari had the same call until then, because she sat in a machine that gave her a vision of the eternal alchemy... which doesn't even really make sense from a logical standpoint because the totality of existence is an abstract, and not something you can actually see to begin with. > > The issue isn't making sense, the issue is understanding the motives, and ability to accomplish goals. > > > > On the other hand, Balthazar wanted to war with the Elder Dragons, just like past lore has shown he wanted to war with ANYTHING he found interesting(this is the same guy who basically wanted to genocide all of Tyira when humanity first arrived), but was then denied what is LITERALLY his nature, had all his powers stripped from him, and was disowned by the very beings he considered his friends for millennia, and was locked away in a dank armpit of the Mists, to waste away there for all time, all because he wanted to do the very thing his sphere of power was about. Yeah, truly no motivation or backstory for why he did what he did(note the massive sarcasm) > > There is a huge difference between WAR and GENOCIDE. War is about tactics and strategy - liking war is similar to liking a live version of chess. Yes there is also the visceral aspect, but it isn't just about body count otherwise a "War" god would go around the world simply blasting every area: boom, everyone dead, done. If a god simply wants to kill things that /= "war", that = psychopathy. > > Also those who go to war have to strike a balance between choosing a war they can win, but also *not* choosing a war where winning = losing (like Total Nuclear War or killing the Elder Dragons). And Balthazar isn't supposed to be just a powerful entity who likes war, but a god of the humans which implies caring in some way about those who worship you. Indeed, both odin and athena are gods of war in their respective mythology and they don't have to fight the chair they sit on for squeaking too loudly. And just because grenth is the god of death doesn't mean he wants everyone dead. Balthazar didn't kill abaddon, be it for abaddon's or tyrias sake (the later more likely) even though there was an open war between them (In fact the chains of abaddon were made by balthazar so he had to comply). So it feels strange that he would just throw a temper tantrum to kill all of his allied gods (not sure if they imprisoned him after threatening to kill them or if he threatened to kill them after they imprisoned him). I suppose i just wish we got a character and not two elder dragons in a trenchcoat. But that's way late now. I hope we go back to enemies who are meant to be uninteresting by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luindu.2418 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I read an "Developer's Ama summary" on dulfy's: > Regarding the humor in Season 3 – **Season 3 went for a lighter tone, but Path of Fire is a bit darker, more serious.** That stated, there are moments of levity to balance out the grim subject matter. Rytlock and Canach have a chemistry, so it’s in character for them to banter back and forth. We hear the comments, though, and have been adjusting future content to be more serious when warranted. It’s all in striking a balance. That's why while "the commander is truly die and ressurrect again" 3/4 of the characters makes joke's around it... > @miriforst.1290 said: > Here's a thing that's bugging me. Since i can't relate anything of the gw2 balthaddon as you cleverly call it to the mythical gw1 balthazar i only have the material presented in gw2, or especially PoF and the end of season 3 to explain "him" (or it since he has about as much of a personality as a table lamp). Balthazar might as well have been an elder dragon. On the old forum I have a pre-PoF theory about Balthazar was corrupted by Primordus (War/Schorched Earth tactics) and Abaddon as a Water Dragon (aka Bubbles/Steven) in a try to explain why Balthazar acts like we saw in season 3. For me, that fits more than "Gods can do nothing" and "I'm the conflict" moments that remind me the "midi-chlorians" > @miriforst.1290 said: > Indeed, both odin and athena are gods of war in their respective mythology and they don't have to fight the chair they sit on for squeaking too loudly. >**And just because grenth is the god of death doesn't mean he wants everyone dead.** :+1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Djinn.9245 said: >War is about tactics and strategy No, it literally is not. I don't know where you got the idea that it was, but primitive man waged war against themselves long before things like complex tactics and strategies were ever invented. War is, by definition, simply a conflict between two nations or states, or two entries within a nation or state. Be that organized like modern conflicts, or mindless slaughter, is irrelevant to the definition of war. >Also those who go to war have to strike a balance between choosing a war they can win, but also not choosing a war where winning = losing Again, no, they literally do not. You don't have to care about winning to go to war. Hell, many conflicts in world history have been started by groups who knew they were going to lose, but simply wanted to take as many of their enemy down with them as they could. Regardless, Balthazar could survive Tyria destruction, so he wasn't really going to lose even if Tyria got destroyed. > And Balthazar isn't supposed to be just a powerful entity who likes war, but a god of the humans which implies caring in some way about those who worship you. Also, wrong. What makes a god a god is that people chose to worship them as such. The god in question does not have to care about being worshiped, or care about those worshiping them them. The Six in general have never seemed to particularly care if people worshiped them or not, and have been perfectly content with letting humans be destroyed by everything around them, even if its other gods like Abbadon, since the exodus. Everything you have said is objectively wrong by all definitions of the things you tried to discuss. > @miriforst.1290 said: >So it feels strange that he would just throw a temper tantrum to kill all of his allied gods (not sure if they imprisoned him after threatening to kill them or if he threatened to kill them after they imprisoned him). It's strange that a guy would want revenge on the people who were supposed to be his best friends and comrades after they betrayed him(at least in his mind) and locked him in the equivalent of a dank cellar for years? I bet you find it strange that kidnap victims want revenge, or at least justice, on the people who kidnapped them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luindu.2418 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said: > > @Djinn.9245 said: > >**War is about tactics and strategy** > **No, it literally is not.** I don't know where you got the idea that it was, but primitive man waged war against themselves long before things like complex tactics and strategies were ever invented. War is, by definition, simply a conflict between two nations or states, or two entries within a nation or state. Be that organized like modern conflicts, or mindless slaughter, is irrelevant to the definition of war. > >Also those who go to war have to strike a balance between choosing a war they can win, but also not choosing a war where winning = losing > Again, no, they literally do not. **You don't have to care about winning to go to war**. Hell, many conflicts in world history have been started by groups who knew they were going to lose, but simply wanted to take as many of their enemy down with them as they could. Regardless, Balthazar could survive Tyria destruction, so he wasn't really going to lose even if Tyria got destroyed. I think these are two sides of the same coin. But if "Balthaddon" is the bad side, like Sajuuk describes, then (imho) is a nonsense that he use strategy when he search absorb energy, create the Forged army, search for Glint's legacy and more, instead of faces Kralkatorrik directly, even in the Volcano vs Primordus he seems more direct than in the fight with kralka while he's waiting until his forged robot kill the ED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 war (n.) From the late Old English wyrre, werre "large-scale military conflict," Anyone who thinks that a large scale military conflict can be waged without tactics or strategy knows nothing about war. Anthropologists have studied hunter-gatherer societies and noted that there are strategies employed, even in so-called "primative" warfare. Even the Greeks had Athena, the armoured goddess who represented intelligence and military strategy. This is not by any means a novel concept for human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Luindu.2418 said: > I think these are two sides of the same coin. But if "Balthaddon" is the bad side, like Sajuuk describes, then (imho) is a nonsense that he use strategy when he search absorb energy, create the Forged army, search for Glint's legacy and more, instead of faces Kralkatorrik directly, even in the Volcano vs Primordus he seems more direct than in the fight with kralka while he's waiting until his forged robot kill the ED Balthazar is far from the real badguy in PoF, the real baduy are the other gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyuDragnier.9476 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @miriforst.1290 said: > Indeed, both odin and athena are gods of war in their respective mythology and they don't have to fight the chair they sit on for squeaking too loudly. > And just because grenth is the god of death doesn't mean he wants everyone dead. You forget the Greeks also had Ares, who Balthazar is very similar to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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