[Suggestion] Ambush Skill Adjustments

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > @FJSAMA.2867 said:

> > I like op changes except staff. I dont like the current staff ambush either.

>

>

> The gsword ones really bad you want to range like a longbow ranger with that weapon and you want it to be aoe.

 

Yeah, that's not how greatsword is used, I'm sorry. Greatsword can provide a minimal amount of ranged harass, as I mentioned, but the primary use is for point blank range instant deletion shatter combos.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > > @FJSAMA.2867 said:

> > > I like op changes except staff. I dont like the current staff ambush either.

> >

> >

> > The gsword ones really bad you want to range like a longbow ranger with that weapon and you want it to be aoe.

>

> Yeah, that's not how greatsword is used, I'm sorry. Greatsword can provide a minimal amount of ranged harass, as I mentioned, but the primary use is for point blank range instant deletion shatter combos.

 

You can still do those at range you spawn a clone and phantasm near the target while youre ranged. I guess you dont play powerspike with it and carry some kind of clone generation that is near you instead of target. You want to be ranged when youre fighting with gsword. Switch to sword or axe for those types of bursts when they get close.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > > > @FJSAMA.2867 said:

> > > > I like op changes except staff. I dont like the current staff ambush either.

> > >

> > >

> > > The gsword ones really bad you want to range like a longbow ranger with that weapon and you want it to be aoe.

> >

> > Yeah, that's not how greatsword is used, I'm sorry. Greatsword can provide a minimal amount of ranged harass, as I mentioned, but the primary use is for point blank range instant deletion shatter combos.

>

> You can still do those at range you spawn a clone and phantasm near the target while youre ranged. I guess you dont play powerspike with it and carry some kind of clone generation that is near you instead of target. You want to be ranged when youre fighting with gsword. Switch to sword or axe for those types of bursts when they get close.

 

Not correct. GS burst isn't really possible at range due to both the mechanics of the skills and the obvious tells that they have. The way you burst is by casting mirror blade at point blank range to your target. This causes all of the bounces to occur simultaneously, while generating a clone. If using DE, you'll dodge for another clone while doing this, then shatter mind wrack followed by mind stab. This combo will essentially delete any weakened player or full health glass builds. You follow this by getting range and harassing again.

 

That's how you use the greatsword. You ranged harass until you see a soft target, then go point blank for the burst to kill. My ambush idea facilitates that by providing cripple for long range kiting and heavy damage for point blank burst.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

You must be talking wvw 1v1s and similar situations because you want to range with the gsword. You only want those bursts when you have no other option (already done ranged/switched to other weapon set and switched back to gsword and they are point blank. Y ou can lead with it and killa glass in 1v1 where they are going to be point blank pretty quickly. You want to range with this weapon youre pretty biased towards a certain type of spike that does work but isnt optimal especially when fighting mid.

 

Go stand in mid 4v4 with your gsword without ranging youre going to get owned.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> You must be talking wvw 1v1s and similar situations because you want to range with the gsword. You only want those bursts when you have no other option.

>

> Go stand in mid 4v4 with your gsword without ranging youre going to get owned.

 

I'll explain one more time, but I'm rapidly seeing that this isn't worth the trouble. You ranged harass with GS until you see a soft target. You engage to point blank range and delete the target with the burst that you can do at melee range. After you've secured the kill, you back out to 900-1200 range and repeat. For +1s on side points, you simply engage in stealth and delete the target at point blank range on the point, then leave back to another area.

 

If you never close distance to unload heavy burst with the GS, you're using it terribly wrong and are being completely ineffective. The ranged damage it provides is only suitable as harass, to do anything significant you have to be close.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

You're tunnel visioning one thing that works with gsword that isnt always the optimal thing to do. You kill one person securing one kill being vulnerable to being targetted while ill kill three of them from ranged.

 

This gsword ambush hits 3 people for twice the amount of damage as the auto. Combine that with powerspike/shatters 423 on gsword. Ambush alone Hits for 3x 4.5k on soft targets bunching.

 

I've played the gsword since release since I dont like the mesmer concept in this game and its the best weapon to play for fun and know the spike you speak of very well. Its not always optimal especially putting yourself in point blank range of a team that can easily target and kill you plus that spike starts to feel really lackluster on people with defense.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess what youre saying is like always telling your d/p backstab to go mid and stand in point blank range to backstab in the middle of aoes/cleaves etc because backstab works. Thats not always going to be the optimal thing to do.

[keenlam.4753]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> *Scepter*

> Scepter is primarily a single target dueling weapon with a decent split between offense and defense. The current ambush skill is an incredibly slow channel that is disturbingly vulnerable to interrupts from any skilled enemy. It's also very weak for such a slow skill with a resource investment.

>

> My version is a quicker channel that also cripples the target, working with the concept of scepter balancing offense and defense. The condition pressure has been amped up to make the target actually pay attention to this.

>

> "Channel to fire 3 orbs at your enemy, inflicting cripple, confusion, and torment."

>

> Cast: 1s

> Damage: x3 (2.0)

> Conditions: Cripple x3 (2s), Confusion x3 (5s), Torment x3 (5s)

> Range: 1200

>

> *Staff*

> The staff is a primarily condition weapon that has a lot of utility mechanics for buffing, defense, and disruption. Honestly, the current ambush skill here is fairly decent, so I'm not going to come up with an entirely new one. Instead, I'll list a couple necessary changes.

> * Channel time should be .75s maximum, it's way too slow for what it does.

> * The projectile needs to track targets like the autoattack, missing a moving target feels really silly.

> * The boons on allies portion of this skill isn't really usable. Make this an AOE pulse around the caster.

 

I think from a design perspective, ambush needs to **NOT ONLY feel impactful BUT ALSO have a "surprise factor"** in their execution (unlike thief's ambush skills already have the surprise factor covered since they do it from stealth).

 

To achieve this factor, a couple of things need to be considered:

1) **Ambush needs to happen immediately**: Quick cast time or channeled skill but happen immediately, no long windup time like Staff Ambush.

 

2) **Ambush needs to do something unexpected**: The skill does something differently and unexpected from the weapon's normal rotation.

For example, Scepter and Staff are normally reactive and slow in execution.

1)Scepter ambush changes up the game by being fast and furious, fitting the name Ether Barrage --> good design

In this case, i think Scepter Ambush is fine but can be made better to be impactful. My suggestion maybe each strike inflicts BOTH confusion and torment rather than randomly applies each. If all hits connect, inflict Immobilize for 2s.

2) On the contrary, staff ambush is both slow in casting and projectile speed --> no surprise factor here.

My suggestion is: the ambush remains a channeled skill, but shooting 3 seeking orbs as soon as you start spinning the staff. The projectile speed must be fast just like scepter's ether barrage. The amount of conditions and boons are same, boons apply to allies (up to 5) nearby the foes hit by the orbs.

 

Another example is the change in range or Area of Effect capability.

Sword and Greatsword ambushes are well-designed because:

1) Sword ambush provides a sudden reach of 600, while normally sword operates at melee range.

2) Greatsword ambush provides the spread dmg as opposed to the normal line-up pierce dmg.

Having said that, I agree with Pyro, both of these ambushes can be improved to feel more impactful. But at concept level, they're fine.

 

Last but not least, for our newest toy, given my points above, i think the axe ambush is fine at concept level, maybe increased the range to 600 and make axes pierce to reliably cleave more targets in addition to the main target.

 

Thoughts?

 

[R E F L H E X.8413]

The gsword ambush already does feel impactful compared to the normal weapon without it its already hitting more than gs skill 3/2/5 and powerspikes on 3 targets and stacks a lot of vulnerability on multiple targets combined with powerspikes vulnerability which is also on multiple targets. The gsword itself can sometimes feel weak as a whole vs tanky targets which isnt the ambushes problem.

 

The gsword ambush is fine as is. The others I've only tested a little bit and dont really care to test that much more. The axe I've been using second to my gsword and this one I'm not sure if it even hits or not at this point I havent tested it on dummys .

 

Side note powerspike + gsword ambush alone is 22 vulerability on target and should all be aoe this is without skill 2 so if youre ranging and hit 3 people with everything the whole team is stacked with 25 vulnerability.

[keenlam.4753]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> Side note powerspike + gsword ambush alone is 22 vulerability on target

 

How is it possible? Power Spike only conditionally inflicts 5 vuln stacks, Gs ambush doesn't inflict vuln.

Am I missing something? Btw I can see your zeal with greatsword but overall, your arguments don't appear very convincing.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

> @keenlam.4753 said:

> > @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> > Side note powerspike + gsword ambush alone is 22 vulerability on target

>

> How is it possible? Power Spike only conditionally inflicts 5 vuln stacks, Gs ambush doesn't inflict vuln.

> Am I missing something? Btw I can see your zeal with greatsword but overall, your arguments don't appear very convincing.

 

gsword ambush does inflict vulnerability read the skill hey now your arguement is not even valid let alone convincing if you want to be honest, and powerspike will do ten when spammed and applies.

 

If the ambush doesnt feel "impactful" and already hits for more than 4 out of 5 of the weapon skills and the damage mantra then the entire weaponset isnt impactful which it does feel that way sometimes but its clearly not ambush.

 

And its not a zeal for the gsword more of a lack of care about the other weapons except pistol which they made interrupts suck in this game so I cant run it competitively which really ruined the entire game for me having no main.

[Curunen.8729]

> @FJSAMA.2867 said:

> I like op changes except staff. I dont like the current staff ambush either.

> It would be better to make it a small channeled block that dropped up to 3 wind of chaos bolts at the end of block, aiming up to 3 nearby enemies. Exacly like revenent staff block but instead of blinding bolts, it drops wind of chaos.

> The animation even syncs up...

 

But that would be so boring and one dimensional given staff would have no other attack than winds of chaos - it would be on auto, on ambush and on iWarlock cast...

 

I have to strongly disagree with your suggestion because I love chaos vortex both in terms of visual effects and gameplay effects and want it to stay.

 

I mean sure it could be a 1s channeled block, but it should still cast chaos vortex as it currently is.

[Carighan.6758]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> Yeah, it's hard to find a balance there. I'm sorta assuming no IH with these changes because it just throws the whole thing out of whack. You can't make the ambush attacks both good on their own and balanced if suddenly they're happening 4x over. It's just not reasonable design. It either needs to be baseline and balanced with that in mind, reworked, or removed.

 

And baseline wouldn't work IMO without extensive reworks to Phantasms and Shatters (or just removing them).

 

I think what should be baseline is that clones **display** the cloak effect, and also gain the immunity. They even do the ambush attack, but it deals 1 damage and applies no conditions.

[Ithilwen.1529]

The major problem that I see with Ambush attacks, (beside there low damage,) is the long channel. You want to be moving, but you reaslly can't move much or the channel fails.

 

In the beta, Ambush skills were nearly suicidal to use because of the rooting. Now, they are frequently wasted because I need to move so I'm not facing the target and the channel fails.

[Carighan.6758]

> @Ithilwen.1529 said:

> The major problem that I see with Ambush attacks, (beside there low damage,) is the long channel. You want to be moving, but you reaslly can't move much or the channel fails.

>

> In the beta, Ambush skills were nearly suicidal to use because of the rooting. Now, they are frequently wasted because I need to move so I'm not facing the target and the channel fails.

 

Nevermind that it makes the DPS increase negligible. Yeah. :disappointed: