Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case. You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok. That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoyoko.7309 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just cherrypicking, the majority of the community expressed that they didn't expect her to be fired and especially PF but none the less happy that Anet had taken action. If you scroll through the comments and even the twitter response, you would know that the community massively downvoted that comment and you can find many other comments like this are downvoted. The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this. Read the reddit post first before posting toxic things like this. > > > > > > It's the firing that is the problem. I've already said that her initial comments were out of line and likely warranted action. ANet went overboard though, which is worse because it emboldens the bigots in the community, who've been making their presence known on the subreddit and these forums. Most have the sense to be a bit less obvious than the person I linked, but things certainly haven't been "reasonable" here. This is a bad example and precedent to set, and it's clearly having detrimental effects on the community and encouraging its worse segments. > > > > The community voicing their concerns about 2 devs who were disrespectful, unreasonable and dismissive of not one but two content creators plus also lashing out any other potential players is reasonable. The community asking for a response from anet is reasonable. Fact is, everyone was sad to hear that JP said all that disrespectful stuff after she said an amazing piece on mmo character design only because someone wanted to provide feedback on an alternate idea who **also applauded her for the amazing thread! **There was no intention of malice, superiority complex or sexism crap. > > The one is setting the bad example is you and other people out there stereotyping the rest of the community all because of a few comments you just happened to saw. Please be diligent to read the rest of everyone's comments before you conclude. > > > > The forum did not over-react, this was not ok, no matter if you saw deroir's response as sexist or not, you don't stoop lower and attack. Two wrongs don't make a right. > > I'm not stereotyping the entirety of the community. I'm saying that there are bad parts *of* the community that will take this as a sign of ANet supporting them. Which is evidently the case. You're not engaging with what I'm actually saying. Even if we talk about the firing, did ALL OF US asked for JP and PF to be fired? was ALL OF US happy that they were fired? The snapshot of the downvoted comment was clearly used to help twist the narrative in your favour that "the community" is "toxic and believes we can fire whoever we want" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedkae.4980 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I am glad to see a poisonous person like this gone. Sexism should never be tolerated toward anyone and this woman needs to learn that she is not immune because she is a woman. I hope Anet moves forward with a broader ideology rather than a strict SJW situation we have now in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffi.3964 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. Why do you keep mentioning a consumer revolt that's about game journalists being in bed with each other in a topic that has nothing to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > She said someone was trying to teach it how to do her job, which while being a bit rude was the truth. > Just because someone feels insulted gives a reason to start a revolution to get the dev fired? Problem is everyone, those devs included, are oversensitive. > At the end of the day, it's just words from a random to a random, who the hell cares and why the hell should they care?! > If she was ANet's PR, yeah that would be bad, since one of their role is to deal with fans, but she isn't. > I don't know how Total Biscuit is relevant to this. To prove that she is not a good person? Let it be, as long as she did a good job at the company and apparently she did. Man you need to work on reading comprehension. He was NOT teaching her in ANY sense on how to do her job. He was offering a differing opinion on what she posted. He gave his OPINION. And instead of responding in an adult fashion and pointing out where he was wrong or looking at some portion of it and saying "huh interesting, I never looked at it like that, but it's not in tune with the vision of where we are going" she went down the route of her being attacked (which was NOT what happened). TB is relevant in the fact when he passed she was employed by ANet. TB was a content creator that supported GW2. Instead of making a more calm comment on his passing she seemed to cheer it. So this situation and the TB situation has shown a pattern of verbally attacking others that support not only the game but ANet on the whole. Also that last sentence? WOW. So if I say something vile about another person but I do an amazing job at a company, but my vitriol gives the company a black eye....they should just ignore it and keep me hired as I "do a good job". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternity Theory.5392 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. > > It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case. > You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok. > > That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad. I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it *wasn't* okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoyoko.7309 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Itzena.8452" said: > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority of the community in GW2 have been reasonable and sensible about this. > > I work in a service industry. If our customers acted like the vocal, visible percentage of GW2 customers here and on r/GW2, we would - no joke - make a concerted effort to go out and find some new customers. The level of entitlement is unrealistic and unsustainable, and now the sole remaining founder of Arenanet has just thrown two of his team to the wolves because he wrongly thinks it will help. (He's actually just declared open season on anyone connected to Arenanet, but he probably won't realise that until Reddit brigades to get him fired at some point). > > > > The customer is not always right. > > I don't know in what kind of service industry you work, but I'd suggest checking your contract again. In mine, it is clearly stated that while representing the company I should behave responsibly. > This isn't too much asked from an employee. I'm sorry but this is pretty standard and sustainable. > You can blame a community for having bad apples all you want, you wouldn't be wrong that there are bad apples, but it would have stayed on reddit and you wouldn't have many people here defending Anet and MO's decision if it was just that. Remember this community is quick to jump on Anet throat usually, they proved it with the cheating banwave and microtranscations drama. exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Its 2018, people are held accountable for their words and actions, what a surprise! > > Also, in the feeling vs facts war, we all know who wins... > > More like only women are held accountable for their words and actions along with the actions of others. I never see men in the game industry being toxic and face consequences. Since a man named Peter was also fired, it is safe to say that your argument is invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Oneiroid.9245" said: > Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations _symbolize_ more in the future. [...] Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tstske.3864 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 The community's outcry to this has made me feel very unsafe as a marginalized gamer. Regardless of a dev's actions, the community reacted disproportionately. Especially for people who claim to be better than most other MMOs. I've never seen this happen in all my years of playing. I'm disappointed and upset, not at Anet but with how the players are dealing with it. I'm trying to write this as clearly and unbiased as I can, but I know it's going to be misconstructed by people looking for an argument and by virtue of being who I am I can't help but take it a bit personally. I just wish people would've sat down and thought about things before the storm took off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 My last thoughts on this topic: gender doesn't matter, character does. It is more than okay (and, unfortunately, often needed still these days) to defend and protect women's rights, because misogyny is on the rise again. :/ However, twisting someone's words to derail a subject, and in such an aggressive, spiteful manner nonetheless, is not professional behavior and falls into the category of "unacceptable" for me. If you feel discriminated, you can say your piece against that person without discriminating back - in most cases, it will turn out to have been a misunderstanding on one or both ends and can be resolved peacefully (it cannot, however, with rage and/or narrow-mindedness on either end). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingLegacy.7159 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Hope you guys celebrating lose jobs too.... Mo should have taken a more considerate action rather than firing them on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Ash.5274" said: > > > > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said: > > > > The vast majority of you have a great deal of growing up to do. I just hope society isn't scuppered by the unreal amount of triggering and thin-skinnedness shown in this thread. I also hope none of you ever get on the chopping block for something you wrote on a web site. Losing your job sucks. Your employer not having your back absolutely sucks. It's not a good thing, a good thing would have been the devs apologising, instead they're out of a job with bills to pay. Anyone who says that's a good thing has never left their mother's basement. > > > > > > So you should expect your employer to have your back when you make that employer look bad on social media? Really? > > > > > > For what it's worth I completely agree that losing your job is never a good thing, but they lost their jobs as a direct consequence of their own actions. They have no one to blame but themselves, it really is as simple as that. > > > > So you're saying the company you work for controls your **personal** social media presence the minute you include who you work for in your **personal** social media, or write something that happens to be about what you work on? Well, I've decided to enlighten myself and allow people to have a work life and a personal life, two entirely different areas that should almost never encroach on each other, and that what someone says or does on their personal time does not nor ever will reflect on their employer...but I'm in the super minority on this point. > > Yes and yes. You are free to post whatever you like on your personal social media accounts but if the content breaks the code of conduct for your company they have every right to remove you from your position. Turns out consequences exist Interesting how you completely ignored the remainder of my statement only to answer the rhetorical question I posed at the beginning...so let me restate what I said. It's my belief that your employer **does not** have control over what you post on your **personal** social media, regardless of whether or not said employer is listed on your personal social media accounts, and to further clarify, your employer does not need to have your back on what you post, but **neither do they have the right to sensor you**, it's your **personal thoughts and opinions, not the companies**...that's the difference and corporate America(and the World) needs to learn that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Are people considering that either was given the chance to apologize? ...and possibly refused? Standing by they're principles? _Guess we'll never know..._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feithlinn.9284 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Oneiroid.9245" said: > > Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations _symbolize_ more in the future. [...] > > Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing. > > No they don't . They think the are experts and they do and go on twitter to harass any developer and patronize them how to do their jobs. That's not customer-feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Phosphorite.6192" said: > > @"Daxramas.1940" said: > > > @"morology.2507" said: > > > Disgusted to see ArenaNet pandering to a pathetic ggate-style hate mob. I won't be playing their games anymore. > > > > Are you willing to elaborate on this? > > O'Brien characterized not only JPs but PFs actions as "attacks against the community" and didn't lose one word about the incredibly toxic reactions they both had to face from certain despicable "community members". He threw both of them under the bus, even PF although all he did was defend JPs position in polite(!) words. If that's not pandering, tell me what is. > > As CEO he has responsibility towards his employees, to back them up against unreasonable demands from "consumers" who don't get that they purchased a product, not the time and life of the people who worked on said product. He did an incredible disservice to JP and PFand couldn't have handled this whole thing worse. So what happen when they are called in the HR office? You know since you were hiding behind the giant fern in the corner and saw and heard everything. With Price personality I wouldn't be surprised she came in the office moaning about how men are all the same kittens in front of Mike. Peter ? No idea he does not share enough to make assumptions about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > @"Itzena.8452" said: > > I feel that effectively handing over the control of GW2 to a bunch of brigading Gamergaters is not the smartest move ever, but hey - it's going to be pretty funny to watch. From a distance. > > I don't think people realize how this is a dangerous precedent and how its going to embolden a certain segment of gamers to openly harass and threaten people. People might even be embolden to stand up and say that celebrating that someone dies to cancer is not civil behavior and do not belong in this community. All those who do celebrate the death of young people who dies to cancer might then feel less welcome. That is exactly what I hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"WingLegacy.7159" said: > Hope you guys celebrating lose jobs too.... Mo should have taken a more considerate action rather than firing them on the spot. You don't know what kind of talks preceded that final decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > > > > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. > > > > It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case. > > You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok. > > > > That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad. > > I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it *wasn't* okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless. The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted. If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement. Just please consider reading some comments: Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened. (Edited for better link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melodyca.8921 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > > @"Itzena.8452" said: > > > I feel that effectively handing over the control of GW2 to a bunch of brigading Gamergaters is not the smartest move ever, but hey - it's going to be pretty funny to watch. From a distance. > > > > I don't think people realize how this is a dangerous precedent and how its going to embolden a certain segment of gamers to openly harass and threaten people. > > People might even be embolden to stand up and say that celebrating that someone dies to cancer is not civil behavior and do not belong in this community. All those who do celebrate the death of young people who dies to cancer might then feel less welcome. That is exactly what I hope! I agree thats definitely wrong but it sure is interesting that I have seen actual screenshots of his tweets telling people to Get cancer and die. The fact remains that he emboldened his base to threaten and harass developers from various game companies. But game companies have made a mistake of giving youtubers too much power . Some are pushing back against the abuse and I respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eponet.4829" said: > > @"thruine.8510" said: > >Take racism. I can't really know what its like which is why so many white males have trouble with it. But I can listen to those who have experienced and model my behavior accordingly. > > Well, if you'll listen to the experiences of a half caucasian/half pacific islander (With mixed race people historically experiencing the greatest degree of racism per person) who had a grandfather that straight up told my mother not to marry my father because he was 'black'. > > From my experiences, racism towards me is a major rarity in my generation. The most I get is the occasional question of what my ethnicity is because pacific islanders are a major minority that a bunch of people don't know the typical physical traits of, which is a little annoying in that I have to go into detail about my ancestry (Not helped at all by the fact that the caucasian half is itself made up of at least 6 different countries and probably more from way back) in order to give an accurate answer. No one's ever singled me out in a negative light because of it in any way that I've noticed, and in fact, it worked to my advantage when it came to applying for university to apply as a pacific islander rather than just ticking other and putting my nationality (Let us tick multiple boxes please). You should feel lucky. I'm guessing if you lived in my area you'd probably be thought of another of those "Mexicans" who have moved into the area in large numbers this past decade. But you mentioned something that helps illustrate my point about being a white male. I never have to explain my ancestry. I never have to correct someone of my citizenship. In fact, that's the last thing I'd ever have to answer. But back in the beginning of the decade while working as a personal manager (different title but its what we referred to it as) I've seen some real racism. My job was basically to fill jobs however I didn't actually do the hiring. Just finding people and set up interviews, three of which they had to go through. At any rate, this is a well known company and routinely I had to deal with racism not towards me by my potential hires. I know women do make less as I also made sure yearly reviews were set up and completed where employees received their raises. Women would routinely receive a satisfactory score (mid range) almost without question. We had those with higher positions that at least merited discussion. But I've had managers return the paperwork I just handed them signed and marked before we ever started the discussion of the actual review. This was supposed to be completed after the review. Of new hires, I almost lost it when one asked why I couldn't get workers that would work and had to tell him I have brought people in and if never given the chance he'd never know. These were all people of color. There was little reason to climb the complaint policy as we all knew where the top three in the company stood and I would have to at least attempt passage through them. I finally succeeded in having a more diverse workforce but it was quite small but I was proud of it. I certainly could have done more looking back. I had to deal with why raises weren't as high as hoped while dancing around ensuring the company didn't go into litigation. It was part of my job to protect the company even if I believe it was wrong. We didn't have the resources we probably should have. And not to make this about race. People who were injured on the job would always after their return to work find themselves having discipline actions against them for one reason or another. Most all the way through firing because they were a liability. It just wasn't right but I needed to work at the time too. I'm not sure how you weight these things and which horse do you bet on that isn't going to settle or just cave. Of course those that caused "issues" would also find themselves having something minor become a reason to lose a job. I was dealing with people a little older than me and this was in the South. We definitely are better than when I was younger but open racism become something frown upon in polite society. It hasn't been over a year since I had a conversation about rap music and had someone inform me that African-American artists didn't have as understandable recordings due to lack of intelligence of the race. I almost didn't know what to say but finally explained as politely as possible that it is impossible for a human being to lack brain capacity due solely from race and exited. It's still around and just changed its form a bit. But we are progressing forward if slowly. Certainly the younger generations will have it easier but its going to be a number of years before its completely gone if ever. When someone tells you racism and all these other -isms don't exit, don't believe it. I've lived through some of it blatant and some even worse in how it hides. Like I said, anyone who haven't dealt with it is lucky. I've never dealt with it on that level either but its destructive to everyone around it. To be caught in the midst of such open disregard for people is like being in a tornado where there's nothing to grab hold of. I hoped I helped for some folks but I didn't do everything I could have had I only known. I've been back to the company since then are it has increased in its hiring of minorities which I always think good job. While we may have a handle on racism, I think this country is still struggling with sexism. Its done with a joking matter and through belittling not just open and easy to point out as racism has been. Its ingrained so deeply. Perhaps too deeply. And certainly those that are like the boy that cried wolf don't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears.5713 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"tstske.3864" said: > The community's outcry to this has made me feel very unsafe as a marginalized gamer. Regardless of a dev's actions, the community reacted disproportionately. Especially for people who claim to be better than most other MMOs. I've never seen this happen in all my years of playing. I'm disappointed and upset, not at Anet but with how the players are dealing with it. I'm trying to write this as clearly and unbiased as I can, but I know it's going to be misconstructed by people looking for an argument and by virtue of being who I am I can't help but take it a bit personally. I just wish people would've sat down and thought about things before the storm took off. I agree. What the dev in question did was wrong, and ultimately I think the powers-that-be made the right decision as it pertains to personnel. However, once certain elements of the 'gaming community' got involved things began to quickly spiral out of control. And so here we are. While I am not a marginalized person it seems that the community has shifted in a very unsettling direction over the past few days or so and can understand why you would feel unsafe. There's a lot of angry mob mentality and 'we run the show now' attitudes flying around and I feel that this community may be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itzena.8452 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > > > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > > > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > > > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > > > > > > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. > > > > > > It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case. > > > You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok. > > > > > > That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad. > > > > I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it *wasn't* okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless. > > The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted. > If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement. > Just please consider reading some comments: > > Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened. > > (Edited for better link) Your argument is literally "Not all redditors". It's funny, but I've seen that sort of deflection before. r/gw2 needs to do something about the beam in their collective eye before Arenanet give up and go "You know what; interacting outside of our own forums just isn't worth it any more". Because that is the most likely path this is going, and defending things with "Well, some people felt a bit bad after we brigaded to get two devs fired" isn't really cutting the mustard right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > > > > > Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything. > > > > > > > Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome. > > > > > Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't) > > > > > And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation. > > > > > As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side. > > > > > > > > Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in *any* form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community. > > > > > > It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case. > > > You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok. > > > > > > That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad. > > > > I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it *wasn't* okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless. > > The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted. > If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement. > Just please consider reading some comments: > > Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened. > > (Edited for better link) Thank you. It is always those who scream the loudest that are heard, they dont reflect the majority by no means, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Feithlinn.9284" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Oneiroid.9245" said: > > > Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations _symbolize_ more in the future. [...] > > > > Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing. > > > > > > No they don't . They think the are experts and they do and go on twitter to harass any developer and patronize them how to do their jobs. That's not customer-feedback. In terms of actual gameplay, players often simply know better. It's just a fact. Guilds like SC will always be more knowledgeable in terms of instanced-PvE-balancing than your standard developer; people with legendary rating will certainly know better in terms of PvP-balancing; same goes to major WvW-progress-guilds. It's like that in any MMORPG and the feedback of these people will always be valuable. Taking balance as example, there certainly won't ever be a perfect balance in any game and sometimes, developers have certain thoughts as to why some stuff isn't balanced. When people make suggestions as to how to improve balancing, the reasonable thing would be to explain why the developers decided to do stuff the way they did. That's just not what a professional would do, it's also common sense. It doesn't even matter if they're experts or not, there always is the possibility that they may have a point with their arguments. Mrs. Price wasn't harassed. A player just made a suggestion. She could have been professional and tell him why she's spinning the story the way she does. Instead, she harassed him. I'm also wondering why people always bring up this expert-argument. There was this argument on reddit that totally hits the point: Electricians often fix stuff other electricians (experts) broke. It happens that experts can be wrong, no matter how long they are in their business. Even a developer can be wrong. It happens quite a lot lately in modern gaming. It's the way it is. Hell, I could even argue that the storytelling actually is bad. Art isn't just some weird unexplainable thing. There are rules to art, especially to writing. It's at least questionable to instantly end your narrative at the climax with a deus ex machina. In terms of the narrative of a drama, the climax of a story (or a short-story inside that story) isn't its end. What follows is something called "retarding momentum" or "falling action" and I can assure you that a lot of people would prefer such storytelling in terms of episode 3. Lastly - again with the harassment-argument -, conflict is one of the fundamental aspects of our species. We can't exist without conflict. The wise way to use conflict as a driving factor for both personal and human evolution is the art of discussion. Discussion enables us to learn stuff. If someone doesn't know better, the right thing to do us to explain how stuff works to him, thus enlighten him. That's what a professional is supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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