Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > So I went over the polygon article, and the amount of irony and hypocrisy is staggering. > > Did the same and have to agree, it is very depressing to read. > I feel sorry for all the Anet employees and O'Brien for having to deal with this kittenstorm. > > And your post was such a great read - much kudos for writing it! Those gaming articles were an eye opener in the way they told only a slanted one sided version of what happened. And great post Blood Red. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > So I went over the polygon article, and the amount of irony and hypocrisy is staggering. > > > > Did the same and have to agree, it is very depressing to read. > > I feel sorry for all the Anet employees and O'Brien for having to deal with this kittenstorm. > > > > And your post was such a great read - much kudos for writing it! > > Those gaming articles were an eye opener in the way they told only a slanted one sided version of what happened. > > And great post Blood Red. ? People love reading about misery and unfairness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manasa Devi.7958 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The bias in the reporting on those gaming "news" websites is staggering. But I guess they have a vested interest in creating and sustaining controversy. Clicks! Clicks! More clicks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > The bias in the reporting on those gaming "news" websites is staggering. But I guess they have a vested interest in creating and sustaining controversy. Clicks! Clicks! More clicks! It’s not even so much a bias as it is opportunism. The “journalists” at polygon and the verge should be ashamed. They know good and well that getting JP to trash talk Anet and make her look like some combative loose cannon ready to fight the good fight at every company is only going to hurt her career, but they don’t care. “Worker is mean to customer and gets fired” doesn’t sell clicks even remotely as well as “Woman gets fired only because she is a woman and no other reason. All other women beware!”. And they found someone willing to help them sell those clicks, without realizing she is sacrificing herself to do it. Those writers are using and abusing her to try to stay relevant, and she won’t realize it any time soon. And by the time she does, it’ll be old news and “too late”. The only person who will really lose in all this is JP. Everyone else will eventually be able to move on, but those articles are going to haunt her for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormac.3871 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > The bias in the reporting on those gaming "news" websites is staggering. But I guess they have a vested interest in creating and sustaining controversy. Clicks! Clicks! More clicks! The news websites range from mediocre to outright bad. I have also seen a few blogs take opposing stances on the issue and manage to be terrible either way. The better commentary is generally coming from the content creators with the game's community. The outside bloggers try to shoehorn the facts into their worldview of either metoo or misandry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > So I went over the polygon article, and the amount of irony and hypocrisy is staggering. > > > > > > Did the same and have to agree, it is very depressing to read. > > > I feel sorry for all the Anet employees and O'Brien for having to deal with this kittenstorm. > > > > > > And your post was such a great read - much kudos for writing it! > > > > Those gaming articles were an eye opener in the way they told only a slanted one sided version of what happened. > > > > And great post Blood Red. ? > > People love reading about misery and unfairness. They also love reading about things that confirm their beliefs. While there’s a good argument not to give those articles your reading count they are actually useful to study for those who don’t believe that a news source will lie by omission. It’s best to read your news with a sceptical eye and do your own checking before joining in with a mob crying for justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > No, but a person that **only** posted on this thread is suspicious at best. > > Which doesn't describe me at all as I had started posting well before this started. Which having checked my history was easy enough to discover but because an opposing viewpoint was offered then suspicious at best is the correct phase. I wasn't speaking about you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Rococo.8347" said: > > > > > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > > > > > > > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest looking into more of the Twitter feeds regarding people outside the initial interaction, and it will give you a brief glimpse into the life of female game developers. The amount of blatantly sexist remarks being made by individuals reveals what these devs deal with constantly and often don't tell us. You don't need access to archives of psychological research to tell that it takes an impact, and this was apparently the breaking point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure she could have handled it better. And sure devs get toxic remarks in general. But female game devs definitely get their unfair share of toxic backlash, and oftentimes the criticism is purely based on sex and not even the work they do. As a result, this has really opened up a can of worms that ANet can't close now. All we can hope for is a more established response in the coming days better detailing their thoughts and plans moving forward. > > > > > > > > > > This is what's bothering me immensely, I may not agree with how she conveyed herself and would have been shocked if I had been on the receiving end myself, but the one blind spot even people like WP seem to have in all of this is that there is some aspects of sexism in this, many many comments on reddit ( and here) over that 24 hours were casually or blatantly sexist, some dodgy subs that dont give a fig about GW2 took interest and joined in, and frankly the reddit community appeared to accept them in. And now they are all crying that games journo's are claiming there was a hunt when there wasn't. > > > > > > > > > > There was a witch hunt and the reddit community fanned the flames - no matter how biased their reporting, there is no way this should have got the amount of heat that it did, the biggest outrage in the community for 7 years is some dev having a pop at a content maker - really?? > > > > > > > > > > And if we are going to talk about a blatant disregard for the fact that sexism does exist in gaming ( and everywhere else) even WP makes a breast joke about clearly being a woman because he has to take heat from commentators sometimes, as if the occasional grief he gets is the same as the death threats and kitten threats, to say nothing of the second guessing etc they have to put up with, as if GG was a completely baseless. > > > > > > > > > > Just because the original comment from Deroir was likely not based in sexism doesn't mean that this whole clusterkitten is squeaky clean. > > > > > > > > All of this is after the initial exchange though. Please also realize that this is one of the first stories about GW2 which has gone mainstream in years. There is a ton of youtubers which are way bigger than WP who have covered this story. The heavily biased Kotaku and Polygon articles (interesting how the mainstream media diverges so much from a majority of the youtube content creators) will not have helped either. That is not so say that the first hour trolls did not have their feast. > > > > > > > > Please also do not lump together honest fans with trolls. The responses from JP were always addressed towards actual fans. She was the one who brought in the entire sexism issue (needlessly if one might add) and she was the one to use terminology as "mansplaining and rando kittten". > > > > > > > > > @"Rococo.8347" said: > > > > > There was a witch hunt and the reddit community fanned the flames - no matter how biased their reporting, there is no way this should have got the amount of heat that it did, the biggest outrage in the community for 7 years is some dev having a pop at a content maker - really?? > > > > > > > > If it makes the mainstream, having a developer mistreat a client is big news. There is no sugar coating this no matter how much you point at the big bad work environment which is so unfair to women. That's like all those excuses made when once again an innocent black man gets shot in the US by police. "Oh but we had to go by previous experiences and he was acting suspicious ." Treat every encounter as it's own and stop making excuses. Everything else is unprofessional. > > > > > > > > Just like JPs tweet about TB was of not that big an issue. Once pushed into the spotlight it became an issue. > > > > > > I think that is something a lot of people forget in the heat of the moment. Most of the fans are better than this. As people call it in politics, "the silent majority." It's a shame to see a tiny group of vocal players with nasty opinions try and take advantage of this. I am currently not a fan of her Twitter feed after having seen some of her tweets, and I find it quite disappointing she was extremely hostile in this scenario. But the result of this fiasco has had a ripple effect in the industry that has to be addressed, ironically worsening the problem she was so opposed to. > > > > I really fail to see which problem is ‘getting worse’ though. There have always been kittens on the internet... And now there are still kittens on the internet... So... Nothing has changed? > > > > And if we’re talking about a ‘precedent’ of people getting fired for bad PR, that was set many years ago. Again, no change. > > Mostly just those people harassing female developers with a renewed vigor. It's less "more people" and just "same people harassing more." Which no one wants to hear them any more than we have to I think. This of course you can back up with some solid proof.. and I am not talking out those gamerjourno, 1 sided rags. I mean actual hard facts with proven legally fireproof backing. Otherwise it's just you touting heresay and conjecture like soo many others. If a dev, male or female speaks out and projects the same way JP and to lesser extent PF did when there was no cause to do so, I think any company with a shred of ethics and decency would of done the same thing to protect the company image, their customers and their employees from being subjected to further unwarranted, unsubstantiated outbursts. Yes it's a real problem , no one is denying that and not just in the gaming industry and thankfully it can be addressed through the proper channels in a much more professional and dignified way than what we have had to sit here and witness for ourselves. As I have said previous.. coming out and acting in an unhinged, abhorrent way then just throwing out an unwarranted gender card for effect is likely a well rehearsed defence mechanism because they are unable to hold reasonable dialogue around the smallest of critique from anyone, but because all of a sudden it was from a man, it must be sexism against a female dev right.. wrong its called reasonable attempt at meaningful dialogue to discuss and debate a small disagreement or differing opinion" regarding something the person thought was cool to put out for the general public to read. I know, lets take the youtube video of deroir praising JP ..you know the one he shot only day before calling out JP for her stellar work and an AMA god, then lets superimpose a female anatomy and a differing voice to fit.. then lets play the video back... Now post deroirs post to JP again and let the dice fall.. will the response be the same, because it should, because there was nothing gender related in his exchange to her. But after apologising and removing himself/herself from JP's ensuing twitter rage.. what card would she spring now.. surely the gender card wont work cos ya know, its a woman offering differing opinion and attempting to converse respectfully …. so would it now be about race or colour or the colour of their eyes or maybe the fact the poster isn't English speaking by nature..... NO, bottom line is there was nothing deroir did to warrant such an attack and there was nothing remotely gender related in anything he said.. it was all on JP and just an angled narrative to insult and silence anyone that dared offer any form of critique to her, anyone... but it backfired and her actions met with consequence. What followed was disgraceful and for all those groups who set about fighting actual cases of sexism in any workplace, this only served to make their fight a little more difficult .. I would like to think that some, if not all such individuals and groups, would distance themselves from such a person and not want that person anywhere near there cause, because she appears to have an uncanny knack of letting her own ideologies turn her into the very thing they are fighting to out in the first place imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"Maxajax.6350" said: > > > > > @"Briolase.7306" said: > > > > > I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. > > > > > > > > > > This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. > > > > > > > > > > I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. > > > > > > > > > > Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. > > > > > > > > I don't think the mob had anything to do with it. JP and PF said things on Twitter that made it morally and practically wrong to retain them as employees. That does not mean that people ought to be celebrating the loss of two devs. Especially PF who has been working on GW1 and 2 for a long time. It is still a loss for the game. Doubly so when the media puts a fictional spin on it to make Mike and Anet look bad for doing the right thing, causing players to leave the game. Regardless of your views, I hope that you find a place where you are happy. > > > > > > And yet Jessica Price celebrated the death of TotalBiscuit to cancer. > > > > So its not OK for Price to do that but its OK to celebrate 2 devs being fired? > > False equivalence, plus that’s coming right on the tail of my post where I explain that the firing is not what most of us are celebrating. I wasn't the one that brought up the analogy, and in general terms on reddit the firings are being celebrated by players egged on by gamergate type agitators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said:> As a result, and after having seen several of her tweets, I am not surprised she was fired as a rather hostile individual. If I was an employer, I likely would have fired her over other tweets before now. But the overall statement from ArenaNet hasn't acknowledged the other bits of fallout that have resulted from her behavior in this instance. And, in an effort to try and learn from this, that is my current concern. > ArenaNet can't win here. If they're keeping most of the dirty laundry in-house, which is pretty much the professional norm in situations like this, they lose control of the narrative. If they air out _everything_, they'll be crucified as bullies. They've already lost control of the narrative due to MOBs actions. > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > I find it regrettable that the firing was necessary. But it was necessary. No it wasn't, certainly not Fries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > I care. This will pass when the next big problem occurs. As a customer, why don't you feel welcome as a woman???? I am a woman and I feel comfortable. > > If it makes you feel better, while I feel Jessica went over the line and deserved firing, I do not feel that way about Peter. He defended a coworker..probably had one too many Fourth of july beers in him to recognize exactly what it was his coworker was actually saying..he just defended a coworker who he perceived as being picked on. I would not be outraged if they brought back Peter. He did not say anything bad to the streamer in question, just defended Jessica in a show of maybe drunken misplaced loyalty. > > That's my story and I am sticking to it :) > > Lisa. > I think many in the community will agree with this. And as you wrote after this, maybe JP was tipsy/drunk too, but she is still very publicly 'throwing mud' at MO and the company and there is no excuse for that. I think that shows well what kind of person she is and how much she really cares about her ex-coworkers and the GW2 community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > The bias in the reporting on those gaming "news" websites is staggering. But I guess they have a vested interest in creating and sustaining controversy. Clicks! Clicks! More clicks! This was why gamer gate happened. They have no journalist integrity. In the name of Donald Trump "fake news". They manufactured the hate and then blamed us for it, to distract from the real issues. Same business, different day. Just look at how they blame the gamers again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > What you're saying here is that customer and employee have the same level of responsibility, which is simply not true. We can all be outraged at a comment or action and voice that opinion. We might even lash out at the company. > > But the company and its employees simply cannot do that. You do not backtalk to your customers because that way you're going to lose them. If they are angry at you, good. Swallow it and work on getting better. You will lose a few on the way. Yelling at them and making the thing 100 times larger than it is is just going to lose you 100 times more customers. > > So again. You're saying we should be upset that people on the same level as us say some horrible stuff (which many of us did but it's not like you care) and that it somehow dismisses us finding her behaviour despicable. JP had the agency in that situation and as such HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY to react in a manner that will not get her company in a bad light. We have absolutely zero responsibility for anything. We can talk kitten about them all day and it's our god given right. They will need to stand there and smile and if they don't, it's their fault. Everybody has to deal with this stuff, it's not unfair it's an inconvenience. > > Like the upset mom that wants to talk to your manager because she only had 2 ice cubes instead of 3 and stuff like that. You just nod until she goes away. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not here to tell what should outrage you or not. The double standard apply to those quitting the game due to the outrage of those that find her comments outraging is funny to me. To them it's better to be outrage at the outrage. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > They've already lost control of the narrative due to MOBs actions. Maybe because they went up against a "narrative designer"? :dizzy: Someone that probably knows how to control the narrative, it's their job after all and they are a professional at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Now, if you want to see an absolutely amazing response to the situation: Peter Fries response is a worthy resume in and of itself. This dude will be working again in no time. New professionals, learn from the contrast here. **Example 1**: _It sucks but I appreciate the opportunity that I had! I look forward to new opportunities on the horizon!_ **Example 2**: _My former company is sexist and I will tell that to the whole world via reporters, and I promise they and their misogynistic bosses will regret this as I convince more and more devs, professors and recruiters to boycott them._ Future employers will not look kindly on example 2. Please don't do example 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuickFox.3826 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I feel a sorry for Peter Fries here. I fail to see a reason to boot him as well, he just defended a colleague there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stengah.6102 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Briolase.7306" said: > I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. > > This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. > > I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. > > Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. I agree, seeing gamergate 2.0 (right down to the "ethics in games journalism" BS) take root here has drastically altered my perception of the GW2 community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrin.1035 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said: > I feel a sorry for Peter Fries here. I fail to see a reason to boot him as well, he just defended a colleague there. *See many other posts that explain the PF issue clearly. He chose his outcome. Deserves no sympathy whatsoever. I feel sorry for his team that he betrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Stengah.6102" said: > > @"Briolase.7306" said: > > I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. > > > > This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. > > > > I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. > > > > Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. > > I agree, seeing kitten 2.0 (right down to the "ethics in games journalism" BS) take root here has drastically altered my perception of the GW2 community. That decision is up to you and we should all respect that, but I find it strange how you both claim to know each individual who is part of this community and their worldview based on few posts on the forums and/or reddit. Most of the players don't even use these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanhelin.3480 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Suggestion to ANet: Hire JP and PF again but transfer them for disciplinary reasons to the support for a few weeks. This should help reduce time for tickets a lot and also should lead to some very elaborated written answers too^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > MOB's Polygon statement still doesn't address exactly why Peter Was fired. > > > > Yeah, nor does it counter anything Jessica had said. It sounds very hastily CYA'd. I'm hearing protecting employees, but not seeing it. Oh well. > > Jessica: MO caved to a mob > MO: I didn’t cave to a mob Typical she said he said. Actions speak louder than words, Mike. Why terminate the contract for someone who is a decade plus old Anet narrative veteran? For standing with his co-worker? For saying something not even close as bad as JP did? Internet is a scary place. Not single person should *never* cave in under the pressure that you feel when internet raises those pitchforks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neworder.7981 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. The most balanced response to the whole debacle thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said: > > I feel a sorry for Peter Fries here. I fail to see a reason to boot him as well, he just defended a colleague there. > > *See many other posts that explain the PF issue clearly. He chose his outcome. Deserves no sympathy whatsoever. I feel sorry for his team that he betrayed. Gotta admit, I feel empathy towards PF's family. I can only imagine the stress this has caused for them all. Can you imagine having to go home to your partner and say you've been fired and why? Can you imagine being his partner and having to recieve and process that information? OMG. Horrific. Don't know if PF was the main bread winner or not...I do hope not for the sake of his family. The fact that PF has behaved a gentleman after the fact, will hopefully bode well for quickly securing the present and the future for him and his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I wish everyone who posted here all the best. Even if I don't agree with some of the opinions presented, it was still a pleasure reading them all. I wish all the best to Peter with his future endeavours and I truly hope that some day Jessica grows past this immature phase in her life. I know I've been a pain in the kitten to my friends and relatives in the past, until I matured enough to realize that the world does not revolve around me. Life is a learning journey. Much kudos and respect to Mike for the tough call he had to make, I still think it was the right one. Also best wishes to all the Anet employees, I hope the company can get past this mess without any more hassle. And Mike, you keep a strong spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnyranger.9074 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I was really hoping this this would have settled down by now but I'm not surprised it hasn't. In no other medium does the press hate the topic that it covers so much as games journalism. In the 80's and 90's outlets like Polygon, Kotaku, Wayoint, RPS, and so on would have been the right hand of anti-entertainment puritans like Jack Thompson, Tipper Gore, and Fox News. This was not an issue of sexism, it was an issue of professionalism. I have nearly 20 years of experience in various levels of management and sales for a large company. In any industry other than gaming not only would Jessica and Peter have been fired but the trade blogs and press outlets that covered the industry would have validated it. If you represent yourself in your social media as an employee of a company, then you are acting as a public face of that company. It's a well understood no brainer. Attempting to deflect responsibility by adding in some sort of disclaimer that it is your 'private' account does not fly. If it is your private account, do not represent yourself as an employee, do not discuss the specifics of your employment or employer on the account. The customer is not always right. But the customer does have a right to the expectation that you will provide him or her with the best possible service and courtesy. Jessica flagrantly violated that expectation. Peter's choice of words may have been less hostile but he still overstepped. It sucks for him but he shouldn't have intervened, that is what PR and Customer Service departments are for. ANet acted in a timely and appropriate manner. Jessica's choice to air the dirty laundry to outlets like Polygon show that ANet was correct in terminating her. She's a liability no company needs. In closing, it is truly shameful the way many gaming blogs and press are trying to spin this. Gaming and gamers deserve media that researches, presents facts, and accurately reports in support of the consumer. Right now we don't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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