juhani.5361 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"juhani.5361" said: > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. > > There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. > > The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. > > Dropping can be a number of reasons. There may just be more women coming in, but way more men coming in, that would make the percentages go down. Plus the reality is, scientific biology shows that men have more of an interest in things, and women an interest in people. There is a spectrum, and you can decide for yourself what you want to do, but generalizations exist. Culture does play a part. Tech in one part of the world may not necessarily mean that it is the same kind of job elsewhere, also plays a part. Indonesian tech tends to be people related. But so does biology play a part, the animal side of us. Even looking at babies and todlers, who had not even yet grasped the idea of a social construct, the boys would look towards things, and girls towards faces and people. Going further, if you look at the UK results for Universities, sure it looks like more women are graduating, but if you look at the fields of expertise, men like certain subjects, and women other subjects. These are generalizations, and denying them is to deny reality. Talking about reality, the reality is, percentages don't necessarily mean that people are leaving, it could be that more men who are interested in things, who are interested in tech, are flooding the market at a greater rate. Why not, there is money there right? And I highly doubt any sensible sound woman would leave the industry because of a couple of online bullies, or an annoying boss or co-worker. Highly doubt because JP was fired for being a sexist ideolog who attacked the customers. And I doubt they are leaving because of # metoo. If you are a computer programmer or work on data centers, you don't have time to fraternize with the opposite sex, or even the same sex. Doing so can get you fired as well by the way. There really is no time for that nonsense. Unless you are screwing around on the job, you shouldn't be in such a position, and if you are, there are methods to nip such a problem in the butt before it gets any further. I was approached by a man at my work who was interested in me, I even told him I had a husband. But when I said that if I took this to human resources, this wouldn't be good, he stopped and apologized and moved on. I didn't take it to HR because he stopped and moved on, and more importantly, apologized. I never had any problems ever again. Why? Because being an adult goes miles. It's the people who like to play with fire, and then when they get burnt, want to blame everybody else; they are the fools who we point and laugh at. You can't be wild and tame at the same time. Professional etiquette goes miles to ensuring that you don't put yourself in a bad position like the one described in this thread. Keep your ideologies to yourself when at work, don't represent the company when talking about things not related to the company, and don't drink and handle customers. Sounds rather boring right? Well do you value money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > Any harassment is obviously bad, so no hypocrisy from me, but men don't tend to get harassed simply because they are men. The whole kitten movement was about harassing prominent game devs simply because they were women. And indeed my main issue in all this actually started with Peter Fries being fired not Price. With the whole issue being overtaken by alt right type agitators it became clear how much of a mistake O'Brien made. > > So you are saying that JP was harassed just because she is a woman and not because she was being toxic? Of course she was > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > What does this "movement" you are talking about has to do with JP getting fired? If you have heard of gamergate here is a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > She wasn't harassed because she was a woman, she harassed OTHERS. She was fired because of her behavior alone, her being a woman has nothing to do with it, don't mistake past "movements" with what happened here as they are irrelevant. Peter Fries was also fired, but the majority of posters don't seem to care about it, and especially the gaming media don't give a kitten about Peter Fries being fired, they only care about the **woman** that got fired to push their agenda. Other male developers also got fired for similar reasons and again nobody cared. The reason was bullying and toxic behavior, being a man or a woman is completely irrelevant. She didn't harass others she was rude and insulting. I agree she was fired due to her behaviour. You need to look a bit larger, her firing has opened up old wounds and has motivated certain toxic elements to both inflame this situation and try and inflame others. And I care about Peter but he clearly doesn't want to speak to the gaming media so what can they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juhani.5361 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > > > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. > > > > There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. > > > > The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. > > > > > Dropping can be a number of reasons. There may just be more women coming in, but way more men coming in, that would make the percentages go down. Plus the reality is, scientific biology shows that men have more of an interest in things, and women an interest in people. There is a spectrum, and you can decide for yourself what you want to do, but generalizations exist. Culture does play a part. Tech in one part of the world may not necessarily mean that it is the same kind of job elsewhere, also plays a part. Indonesian tech tends to be people related. But so does biology play a part, the animal side of us. Even looking at babies and todlers, who had not even yet grasped the idea of a social construct, the boys would look towards things, and girls towards faces and people. Going further, if you look at the UK results for Universities, sure it looks like more women are graduating, but if you look at the fields of expertise, men like certain subjects, and women other subjects. These are generalizations, and denying them is to deny reality. Talking about reality, the reality is, percentages don't necessarily mean that people are leaving, it could be that more men who are interested in things, who are interested in tech, are flooding the market at a greater rate. Why not, there is money there right? And I highly doubt any sensible sound woman would leave the industry because of a couple of online bullies, or an annoying boss or co-worker. Highly doubt because JP was fired for being a sexist ideolog who attacked the customers. And I doubt they are leaving because of # metoo. If you are a computer programmer or work on data centers, you don't have time to fraternize with the opposite sex, or even the same sex. Doing so can get you fired as well by the way. There really is no time for that nonsense. Unless you are screwing around on the job, you shouldn't be in such a position, and if you are, there are methods to nip such a problem in the butt before it gets any further. I was approached by a man at my work who was interested in me, I even told him I had a husband. But when I said that if I took this to human resources, this wouldn't be good, he stopped and apologized and moved on. I didn't take it to HR because he stopped and moved on, and more importantly, apologized. I never had any problems ever again. Why? Because being an adult goes miles. It's the people who like to play with fire, and then when they get burnt, want to blame everybody else; they are the fools who we point and laugh at. You can't be wild and tame at the same time. Professional etiquette goes miles to ensuring that you don't put yourself in a bad position like the one described in this thread. Keep your ideologies to yourself when at work, don't represent the company when talking about things not related to the company, and don't drink and handle customers. Sounds rather boring right? Well do you value money? Okey doke. No point in engaging here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > She didn't harass others she was rude and insulting. I agree she was fired due to her behaviour. You need to look a bit larger, her firing has opened up old wounds and has motivated certain toxic elements to both inflame this situation and try and inflame others. And I care about Peter but he clearly doesn't want to speak to teh gamiong media so what can they do? Those "wounds" opened up when she acted the way she did, JP opened those wounds, not twitter, nor reddit, it was JP that started this and whether she was fired or not the result would've been the same. It was her inability to take responsibility and apologize, like a good adult would, especially when she saw the attention this incident was getting, and her not reporting this to her employer so they could protect her, and instead escalating it further, that opened those wounds. Seriously what I see is toxic elements inflaming Arenanet for their actions, throwing accusations at the GW2 community for what happened, all while defending JP as if she didn't do anything wrong. That's all the flaming I see at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"juhani.5361" said: > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > > > > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. > > > > > > There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. > > > > > > The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. > > > > > > > > Dropping can be a number of reasons. There may just be more women coming in, but way more men coming in, that would make the percentages go down. Plus the reality is, scientific biology shows that men have more of an interest in things, and women an interest in people. There is a spectrum, and you can decide for yourself what you want to do, but generalizations exist. Culture does play a part. Tech in one part of the world may not necessarily mean that it is the same kind of job elsewhere, also plays a part. Indonesian tech tends to be people related. But so does biology play a part, the animal side of us. Even looking at babies and todlers, who had not even yet grasped the idea of a social construct, the boys would look towards things, and girls towards faces and people. Going further, if you look at the UK results for Universities, sure it looks like more women are graduating, but if you look at the fields of expertise, men like certain subjects, and women other subjects. These are generalizations, and denying them is to deny reality. Talking about reality, the reality is, percentages don't necessarily mean that people are leaving, it could be that more men who are interested in things, who are interested in tech, are flooding the market at a greater rate. Why not, there is money there right? And I highly doubt any sensible sound woman would leave the industry because of a couple of online bullies, or an annoying boss or co-worker. Highly doubt because JP was fired for being a sexist ideolog who attacked the customers. And I doubt they are leaving because of # metoo. If you are a computer programmer or work on data centers, you don't have time to fraternize with the opposite sex, or even the same sex. Doing so can get you fired as well by the way. There really is no time for that nonsense. Unless you are screwing around on the job, you shouldn't be in such a position, and if you are, there are methods to nip such a problem in the butt before it gets any further. I was approached by a man at my work who was interested in me, I even told him I had a husband. But when I said that if I took this to human resources, this wouldn't be good, he stopped and apologized and moved on. I didn't take it to HR because he stopped and moved on, and more importantly, apologized. I never had any problems ever again. Why? Because being an adult goes miles. It's the people who like to play with fire, and then when they get burnt, want to blame everybody else; they are the fools who we point and laugh at. You can't be wild and tame at the same time. Professional etiquette goes miles to ensuring that you don't put yourself in a bad position like the one described in this thread. Keep your ideologies to yourself when at work, don't represent the company when talking about things not related to the company, and don't drink and handle customers. Sounds rather boring right? Well do you value money? > > Okey doke. No point in engaging here. :anguished: But everything I said can be backed up with real world evidence, and is observable reality. Or are we talking about feelings? Because nobody wants to be treated poorly. However kinda like Cindy Prior, sometimes we make our own demons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manasa Devi.7958 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > She didn't harass others she was rude and insulting. I agree she was fired due to her behaviour. You need to look a bit larger, her firing has opened up old wounds and has motivated certain toxic elements to both inflame this situation and try and inflame others. And I care about Peter but he clearly doesn't want to speak to teh gamiong media so what can they do? Pointing someone out to your followers with that kind of framing _is_ harassment in my book. It goes beyond replying and being rude. You just don't do that unless you intend to start something rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juhani.5361 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > > > > > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. > > > > > > > > There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. > > > > > > > > The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. > > > > > > > > > > > Dropping can be a number of reasons. There may just be more women coming in, but way more men coming in, that would make the percentages go down. Plus the reality is, scientific biology shows that men have more of an interest in things, and women an interest in people. There is a spectrum, and you can decide for yourself what you want to do, but generalizations exist. Culture does play a part. Tech in one part of the world may not necessarily mean that it is the same kind of job elsewhere, also plays a part. Indonesian tech tends to be people related. But so does biology play a part, the animal side of us. Even looking at babies and todlers, who had not even yet grasped the idea of a social construct, the boys would look towards things, and girls towards faces and people. Going further, if you look at the UK results for Universities, sure it looks like more women are graduating, but if you look at the fields of expertise, men like certain subjects, and women other subjects. These are generalizations, and denying them is to deny reality. Talking about reality, the reality is, percentages don't necessarily mean that people are leaving, it could be that more men who are interested in things, who are interested in tech, are flooding the market at a greater rate. Why not, there is money there right? And I highly doubt any sensible sound woman would leave the industry because of a couple of online bullies, or an annoying boss or co-worker. Highly doubt because JP was fired for being a sexist ideolog who attacked the customers. And I doubt they are leaving because of # metoo. If you are a computer programmer or work on data centers, you don't have time to fraternize with the opposite sex, or even the same sex. Doing so can get you fired as well by the way. There really is no time for that nonsense. Unless you are screwing around on the job, you shouldn't be in such a position, and if you are, there are methods to nip such a problem in the butt before it gets any further. I was approached by a man at my work who was interested in me, I even told him I had a husband. But when I said that if I took this to human resources, this wouldn't be good, he stopped and apologized and moved on. I didn't take it to HR because he stopped and moved on, and more importantly, apologized. I never had any problems ever again. Why? Because being an adult goes miles. It's the people who like to play with fire, and then when they get burnt, want to blame everybody else; they are the fools who we point and laugh at. You can't be wild and tame at the same time. Professional etiquette goes miles to ensuring that you don't put yourself in a bad position like the one described in this thread. Keep your ideologies to yourself when at work, don't represent the company when talking about things not related to the company, and don't drink and handle customers. Sounds rather boring right? Well do you value money? > > > > Okey doke. No point in engaging here. > :anguished: > But everything I said can be backed up with real world evidence, and is observable reality. Or are we talking about feelings? Because nobody wants to be treated poorly. However kinda like Cindy Prior, sometimes we make our own demons. You're projecting a lot of thoughts onto me that I've never said, so obviously you either a) think I'm someone else or b) are spoiling to have a fight. I'm not aiming for "b" in the slightest. I'm just trying to get a grasp on how the industry works outside the US-- heck, maybe learn something new. So, I'm going to back away because this has become personally unproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"juhani.5361" said: > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States? > > > > > > Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did. > > > > > > > > > > There is, but not the way you're thinking ;) The last stats (March 2018) I was able to find on the percentage of women employed in tech positions was at 19% here, and is steadily dropping. A decade ago, when I was in school trying to learn server administration, the figure was 22-25%. As a comparison, over 50% of programmers were female in Indonesia according to stats I'd read at the time. I'm trying to find the Australian stats to see if there's a comparison that can be drawn. > > > > > > > > > > The US tech sector is notoriously sexist-- probably worse than most countries. I'm guessing the atmosphere is a lot less toxic and hostile in other countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dropping can be a number of reasons. There may just be more women coming in, but way more men coming in, that would make the percentages go down. Plus the reality is, scientific biology shows that men have more of an interest in things, and women an interest in people. There is a spectrum, and you can decide for yourself what you want to do, but generalizations exist. Culture does play a part. Tech in one part of the world may not necessarily mean that it is the same kind of job elsewhere, also plays a part. Indonesian tech tends to be people related. But so does biology play a part, the animal side of us. Even looking at babies and todlers, who had not even yet grasped the idea of a social construct, the boys would look towards things, and girls towards faces and people. Going further, if you look at the UK results for Universities, sure it looks like more women are graduating, but if you look at the fields of expertise, men like certain subjects, and women other subjects. These are generalizations, and denying them is to deny reality. Talking about reality, the reality is, percentages don't necessarily mean that people are leaving, it could be that more men who are interested in things, who are interested in tech, are flooding the market at a greater rate. Why not, there is money there right? And I highly doubt any sensible sound woman would leave the industry because of a couple of online bullies, or an annoying boss or co-worker. Highly doubt because JP was fired for being a sexist ideolog who attacked the customers. And I doubt they are leaving because of # metoo. If you are a computer programmer or work on data centers, you don't have time to fraternize with the opposite sex, or even the same sex. Doing so can get you fired as well by the way. There really is no time for that nonsense. Unless you are screwing around on the job, you shouldn't be in such a position, and if you are, there are methods to nip such a problem in the butt before it gets any further. I was approached by a man at my work who was interested in me, I even told him I had a husband. But when I said that if I took this to human resources, this wouldn't be good, he stopped and apologized and moved on. I didn't take it to HR because he stopped and moved on, and more importantly, apologized. I never had any problems ever again. Why? Because being an adult goes miles. It's the people who like to play with fire, and then when they get burnt, want to blame everybody else; they are the fools who we point and laugh at. You can't be wild and tame at the same time. Professional etiquette goes miles to ensuring that you don't put yourself in a bad position like the one described in this thread. Keep your ideologies to yourself when at work, don't represent the company when talking about things not related to the company, and don't drink and handle customers. Sounds rather boring right? Well do you value money? > > > > > > Okey doke. No point in engaging here. > > :anguished: > > But everything I said can be backed up with real world evidence, and is observable reality. Or are we talking about feelings? Because nobody wants to be treated poorly. However kinda like Cindy Prior, sometimes we make our own demons. > > You're projecting a lot of thoughts onto me that I've never said, so obviously you either a) think I'm someone else or b) are spoiling to have a fight. I'm not aiming for "b" in the slightest. I'm just trying to get a grasp on how the industry works outside the US-- heck, maybe learn something new. > > So, I'm going to back away because this has become personally unproductive. Whoops, I didn't mean it that way. Sadly text lacks a lot of the things that real life speech would give you hints of. Just think of me as a cat with 2 cents. :3 I talk too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 This thread started with a horse...what happened to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOCitadelOo.2381 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > She didn't harass others she was rude and insulting. I agree she was fired due to her behaviour. You need to look a bit larger, her firing has opened up old wounds and has motivated certain toxic elements to both inflame this situation and try and inflame others. And I care about Peter but he clearly doesn't want to speak to the gaming media so what can they do? I am going to wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. She may have started out rude and insulting and that I can concede. But she turned it into harassment when she continued to berate the individual and introduced logical fallacies and strawmen arguments that suited her particular narrative. In my opinion that was related to the factors of other posters contributing to the exchanges that were being made and inadvertently fueled her tangent and tirade. That tangent and tirade turning into targeting the aforementioned individual, Deroir. When you filter, skew, and lose perspective of what you are really angry about, a target will present itself and unfortunately that target was, Deroir. The interpretation of his response and his comments can no way be shown as him being rude, condescending, insulting, harassing, or bring up any social justice aspect. He was merely responding to a very valid and eloquently put opinion about how writing character(s). I think the majority can objectively agree that JP was articulate and made valid points. But, ego and narcissism--and well let's thrown in pent-up frustration can be a bad combination. And in this instance completely eroded any standing JP had. There is no doubt that in this industry the issues that have been highlighted are or have been substantial. But I can also argue that this goes into any profession. I can also declare that when interacting with the public or customer base, your actions or interactions may have consequences. I can see why you made the point of it "opened up old wounds" but reality and based upon the analytical assessment, those wounds were already there; festering, waiting for a particular moment where she can explode and vent her frustration. Which explains the poorly inequitable comparison between JP and Deroir. What do I mean by that? Basically, it's her response vs. his response and her response does not fit because it was something bigger on her end that she was fed up about. And this was an opportunity for her to express it. However the target was unintended. Some may view that as a defense of her. It isn't. There is no excuse for her actions, but I also understand that this was an action she took and became intensive. I think what I find really frustrating in this endeavor is the mainstream media in regards of the gaming community; some journalists are unable to be objective and actually see the fault in the subject matter. It seemingly appears that they want JP's story, they want to hear her perspective, at best this is a ratings boost for them. They do not want to shun her completely, that is bad business. But the integrity and accountability for one's actions gets shifted. And that is the downside. But those same journalists are forgetting their one rule. Is be objective, give the reporting integrity, and leave your opinions out of it. Unless you want to do an editorial. And if that is the path, be able to give the other perspective as well. Apologies for any grammatical errors or misspellings, this was used through voicetext via phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > She didn't harass others she was rude and insulting. I agree she was fired due to her behaviour. You need to look a bit larger, her firing has opened up old wounds and has motivated certain toxic elements to both inflame this situation and try and inflame others. And I care about Peter but he clearly doesn't want to speak to teh gamiong media so what can they do? > > Those "wounds" opened up when she acted the way she did, JP opened those wounds, not twitter, nor reddit, it was JP that started this and whether she was fired or not the result would've been the same. It was her inability to take responsibility and apologize, like a good adult would, especially when she saw the attention this incident was getting, and her not reporting this to her employer so they could protect her, and instead escalating it further, that opened those wounds. > Seriously what I see is toxic elements inflaming Arenanet for their actions, throwing accusations at the GW2 community for what happened, all while defending JP as if she didn't do anything wrong. That's all the flaming I see at the moment They started inflaming the situation before the firing but the trigger giving them licence was their firing. I'm sure they would have dropped off if they weren't fired. As for defending JP, thats a small minority both here and on reddit and I think most are not actually defending her but merely think she shouldn't have been fired and I don't see how its being toxic. > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > Pointing someone out to your followers with that kind of framing _is_ harassment in my book. It goes beyond replying and being rude. You just don't do that unless you intend to start something rotten. Was Deroir actually harassed by her followers? I don't think so. You;re making assumptions as to her motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > This thread started with a horse...what happened to it? It's kinda like fire. When somebody adds wood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burden.9724 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? Not on social media they weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > I'm sure they would have dropped off if they weren't fired. I don't believe that at all, in fact, not firing her would've led to an even worse outcome, at least for Arenanet. We'll never know now > As for defending JP, thats a small minority both here and on reddit and I think most are not actually defending her but merely think she shouldn't have been fired and I don't see how its being toxic. Unfortunately the game's media doesn't look at it this way, the majority of them is defending JP, same with other companies making announcements on twitter how they value their employees and how they'd protect them in similar cases. I want a company like Opaque Space to hire JP and when she does the same thing again, to see their reactions. It's really easy to make announcements about things not happening to you and how you'd react differently if you were in the same situation. But truth is, I want to see it first hand because words are really cheap. Anyone can type some words, but it's the tough decisions where it matters. You don't see how people saying "I've unistalled this game because it doesn't respect women rights" as toxic? And then that same non-sense is repeated in their circles, without context. You don't see how game's media articles twisting what happened and saying it's all about sexism and women rights as toxic? And then their mindless drones spread the same idiocy around the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick.8604 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Are Polygon and Kotaku gleefully perpetuating the fiction that gender bias and hurt "manfeels" are behind the firings in order to steer more traffic their way? Sure, that's probably part of all this. Still, I can't ignore the sneaking suspicion that Polygon and Kotaku are jumping at the chance to villainize the competition. Let's face it, Deroir along with Wooden Potatoes, The Herald, Mighty Teapot, Kroof, Aurora Peachy, INKS and their fellow streamers are really all the go-to "gaming media" thousands of us will ever need. And while I'm on the subject of the infamous, women-hating GW2 "mobs" from Reddit behind Jessica Price's firing, let me say this: last night in Auric Basin we had a full map of players for the metas. ALL four commanders at the gates of Tarir were women. I got a mountain of loot and was man-feeling pretty good. I'd follow the woman who led us at South Watch into battle anytime. And so, Polygon, Kotaku, Ms Price thanks but no thanks; when I want to be lied to, I'll watch the White House daily briefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Burden.9724" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? > > Not on social media they weren't. Oh really? In what world? People have been stalking others with politically diverging opinions on facebook and getting them fired by their employer for years. Granted a big majority of the people had very questionable quotes on their private facebook pages (more often being fresh out of highschool in internship contracts saying stupid things). Now I'm not defending people saying stupid stuff and facing the consequences but if you truly believe people were not facing results on social media usage, you have been living in a bubble. EDIT: I had a friend of mine check his contract and his social media clause/page (mind you he is quite high up in finance for a company absolutely unrelated to gaming and social media) and even his contract according to his own words was summed up as:"Don't be an idiot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Burden.9724" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? > > Not on social media they weren't. Quick search on google: https://www.themuse.com/advice/yes-you-can-get-fired-for-your-social-media-posts-9-times-people-learned-this-lesson-the-hard-way This image is good: https://visual.ly/images/howcansocialsoftwaregetyoufired_4f2a494e750fb_w610.png Edit: >in 2011, 43% of corporations admitted they had to take disciplinary action against employees regarding misuse of social networks, up from 24 percent in 2009 We can all imagine how high that percentage has gone since then. Some more: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-02-06-subnautica-developer-fired-over-many-hateful-statements Game Sound Designer fired https://archive.li/UuEJw Another developer that was recently fired https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/14-canadians-who-were-fired-for-social-media-posts/ More people fired for social media posts Yes keep saying that this is in any way new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Burden.9724" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? > > Not on social media they weren't. You sure about that? XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Burden.9724" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? > > > > Not on social media they weren't. > > Quick search on google: > https://www.themuse.com/advice/yes-you-can-get-fired-for-your-social-media-posts-9-times-people-learned-this-lesson-the-hard-way > > This image is good: > https://visual.ly/images/howcansocialsoftwaregetyoufired_4f2a494e750fb_w610.png > Edit: > >in 2011, 43% of corporations admitted they had to take disciplinary action against employees regarding misuse of social networks, up from 24 percent in 2009 > We can all imagine how high that percentage has gone since then. > > Some more: > https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-02-06-subnautica-developer-fired-over-many-hateful-statements > Game Sound Designer fired > https://archive.li/UuEJw > Another developer that was recently fired > > https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/14-canadians-who-were-fired-for-social-media-posts/ > More people fired for social media posts > > Yes keep saying that this is in any way new. Oh you and your facts, strutting around causing a ruckus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Drogot.4629" said: > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > Mo > > **I do not support this. ** > > I think to fire someone over such a minor infraction and then giving such a non-Statement is very unprofessional by MO > > I don't want to discuss this, as this whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. But I still wanted to say that I do not support this. Lol.. you don't want to discuss it cos it makes you sick, but not enough to come to the forum and share your opinion.. lacking any detailed reasoning as it does... makes sense. TBH, ANET / MO didn't actually have to put out any kind of statement, be thankful the statement was released instead of reading it through JP's continuing doubling, no tripling, no wait quadrupling down on her unprofessional bad mouthing. I see only a senior figure of a company attempting to keep his customers aware that the business as a whole has taken a very serious view on something which not only outraged the community, but could of had a serious issue on the company revenues goes forward, thus placing other innocent victims within the company at risk of.. ya know, not having a job either. Sure you can have an opinion and it differs from mine and many others here and that's perfectly fine, I respect that... what JP did however, was take a slight differing of opinion extremely badly to which she immediately set about disrespecting the mouths that feed her in a totally unprofessional way and then intensified that with her own twisted divisive narrative.. not something I see either ANET or PF for that matter doing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > I truly hope that some day Jessica grows past this immature phase in her life. > > This is no phase. This is who she is and is proud to be. What a waste of talent. > Just a bit of wishful thinking, and while I tend to agree, there's always hope that maybe some day that bubble will burst. > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > This thread started with a horse...what happened to it? A certain individual took that proverbial horse ignoring all those who opposed and then rode it thru Kotaku to Polygon where that person still continues to parade around with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > > I truly hope that some day Jessica grows past this immature phase in her life. > > > > This is no phase. This is who she is and is proud to be. What a waste of talent. > > > > Just a bit of wishful thinking, and while I tend to agree, there's always hope that maybe some day that bubble will burst. > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > This thread started with a horse...what happened to it? > > A certain individual took that proverbial horse ignoring all those who opposed and then rode it thru Kotaku to Polygon where that person still continues to parade around with it. https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/article-1348243992448-151fb750000005dc-448610_636x389.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason. > > > > > > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better. > > > > > > > Are you for real? There were men that were fired for their twitter comments too you know. They didn't even reach the gaming media. I'm gonna say this again for emphasis: > > A man gets fired for his twitter comments: nobody cares > > A woman gets fired for her twitter comments: it's the end of the world for women in the gaming industry > > > > This is hypocrisy at the highest level. The narrative of this entire firing incident has changed from an **employee** being fired to a **woman** being fired. I guess you and the so called gaming press love to twist it that way because it suits your agenda. > > Any harassment is obviously bad, so no hypocrisy from me, but men don't tend to get harassed simply because they are men. The whole kitten movement was about harassing prominent game devs simply because they were women. And indeed my main issue in all this actually started with Peter Fries being fired not Price. With the whole issue being overtaken by alt right type agitators it became clear how much of a mistake O'Brien made. > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason. > > > > > > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better. > > > > > > > And there in lies your problem.. you are using twitter and such as your source of fact. > > You have nothing to go on other than a few tweets without evening knowing the slightest ion particle of what the facts are with those individuals, the circumstances and what is their own employers are doing. > > Of course they are lying /s. But it happens that the company of one of them actually put out a statement as I stated in another thread: > > https://twitter.com/OPXSpace/status/1016873103840796672/photo/1 So.. lets take that and pick out some facts.. sexism/harassment happens.. not just in game development or tech based industry.. that is undisputed! You I or anyone at Space knows the extent of the events including before after the online tirade. JP was not being harassed by the deroir.. in fact I would go far far as to say it was JP that set about harassing deroir and then anyone else that cared to share or differ in opinion.. massive difference. Do Space or anyone other than those employed to do so know that ANET are lacking in any of those specific policies.. No one said discussing sexim was hate speech.. where did that come from .. however if you consider the aggressive tone not just her words around her tweets back to memebrs of the community.. I would say there was likely some grounds to call it hate speech, just not the way Space intened their statement look. Oh yeah the best part till last.. In fact we believe these conversations are necessary and applaud our devs for engaging in this emotional labor to educate and discuss these issues within our industry.. sounds awesome I like the sound of that - except where did we see JP conversing with deroir, where did we see her openly discussing the issues with the community.. she did nothing of the sort, she simply jumped in attacked and then labelled the whole thing down to her being a women in the industry for effect and set her own narrative to push through and quell his "slight disagreement" and that of inks and others. That statement only works when the villain of the piece is not the dev themselves... what ensued was of her own making, she opened the barn door and when she did that her "personal space where she was the instigator of a very one sided debate became very much public drama, which she knew all to well would happen.. in fact I think she thrives on it, she thrives on controversy.. which is as dangerous a precedent as the one Space believes has been setup, which is why I would like to think any credible organisation that fight these issues on a daily basis would look to distance themselves from JP. You don't fight injustices by becoming the unjust...and once again she met with consequence. As for PF.. I have already said this one appears somewhat confusing to me, but PF unlike JP is acting far more professionally about it all. Is there more to this going forward.. who knows, but the fact is that statement by Space is generic in make up and bares no factual evidence to tie ANET in with any wrongdoing in all this, in fact it only serves to show the terrible way JP acted in all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Can´t say I am happy with this, even though Anet ultimately reacted in the only reasonable way they had left. Still leaves a sour taste. We got an individual who is unable to own and learn from mistakes apparently, we have parts of the gaming press twisting the story to fit into their agenda, we got an apparently decent guy as collateral damage. We got yet another disheartening look into ideology possession on both ends (of cause the usual nutters of mgtow and the like jumped on this the moment it got big, not an iota better than "3rd wave feminism"). The only bright thing that came from this: the new rando kittenhead meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now