Zaklex.6308 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > > > Here I can give you some pointed facts on my reasoning, I'm quite familiar with the issue, but I also make it a point of discussing boundaries when developing a new friendship or working relationship, the reason being is to set definite expectations on what is allowed and not allowed, however, that only works if people listen and are willing to discuss. I've been employed at my current job for 11 years, and during those 11 years I have one official complaint of sexual harassment, it was a blatant false accusation, though the investigation was more like a trial than an investigation()and they do separate the employees to two different work locations). I also filed a counter claim against the one official charge because I had been told by another employee they heard 2 people telling a third person to make the claim(because those 2 people had an agenda against me, for what reason I never found out), and the person that brought the claim apologized to me when they were leaving the job(again, because of another false claim made by others). But my claim was dismissed summarily, whilst the claim against me did not result in any severe disciplinary action, it did result in a discussion and being given the entire 80 page harassment policy book which listed items such as looking at a coworker being considered harassment...yes, you read that right, you can't look at a coworker...our job is to look and observe, I can literally look right through someone to observe something behind or beyond them and not even notice that person is standing in my line of sight. > > > > The other 2 accusations did not go through official channels and do not appear in my file, but not in any of those instance did the person come to me first and talk to me about it. I won't bite someones head off for telling me they feel uncomfortable around me or with something I said or did, just tell me you don't like and want me to stop and it will. As a matter of fact our organization specifically has it setup so that there is a peer to peer dispute resolution process before escalation, but none of these people took that route, it's encouraged to go through the peer to peer process first(they've taken employees on the same level and trained them in dispute resolution, so it's not like these are just blind sessions), so you have the 2 aggrieved parties sitting down with a third person of the same level as you facilitating the discussion. It's inherently not in the employees best interest to go instantly up the chain of command to resolve disputes as it causes more people to not say anything than it does to say something. > > > > First step, peer to peer with HR or trained peer observer, if no resolution is possible between the two parties via this route, then you can start moving up the ladder, however this issue rather far off base from the discussion at hand...which I noticed everyone is dismissing all of the game media sites as just bad one sided journalism. How it can be considered one sided, when like with Polygon they published the full response from MO, which if anyone actually read it does not dispute JP's recollection of how the meeting went one iota. Even if you disagree with them backing her, and that's really a separate issue, you have to admit they're making some valid points, just read the latest one in Polygon, I suggest people read it multiple times if they don't grasp the concept of what they're saying in how it's only hurting the industry internally. > > > > Look at the big picture this way, ArenaNet is not beholden to any shareholders, there's only 1 shareholder in the company, NCSoft, and they chose with GW2 to take a more hands off approach when MO and company convinced them they could self fund continued operations with the same B2P model as GW1 by including a bigger cash shop. So now they still need to make money to send to HQ, but they also need to make money to continue developing the game and paying salaries of employees, that comes from your customers, some of whom make up the community(not all customers are part of the community, the play the game but they don't interact with the foums or on reddit, etc., they don't care about changes, etc., etc.,, the only play the game no matter how the game evolves). You then get these really passionate players that create YouTube videos and Twitch channels and just put the game out there because they really love it, so you create a partner program to give them inside scoop. Now the community that follows the game more intensely than your common player has a source for news(so to speak). Fast forward to the game being out almost 6 years, your games has gone through many changes and the story has evolved, you have finally got a decent(I dare say good) writing team together and your bread and butter Living World seasons are in top form. One of these people who hasn't been with the company very long has a history of standing up against sexism against female devs and allegedly is told that won't be a problem, that she can continue to speak her mind on her personal social media accounts, what details in the social media conduct rules at this company are we do not know, we are not privy to. So this person make a tweet on her personal account, which happens to mention where she works, and the tweets sum up a process on how a particular part of narrative is written, yes, it's open to the public, but it's also basically a statement of fact, as this is how it is done and why. Now, one of these partners, a well respected on evidently(I'd never heard of him before) is enamored of this person, sees the tweet and thinks it's an opening for discussion, so responds. Said dev has had men tell her how to do her job since she entered the field, and continued to do so even after having worked at it for a number of years and has probably tried if not discussed amongst coworkers different ways to try things. This partner(and community member) suggests something that has already been discussed and is basically common knowledge among all devs that work in narrative...yes another male suggesting how she can do her work better, again, instead of just reading the tweets as what they were...this is how it's done and why. We all know what went down from that point forward, so I won't rehash everything, but I will say this, the company can not protect employees from outside harassment(if it exists), but they can lessen it by not broadcasting to the world the outcome of an internal issue. > > > > I'll also say this, so there's 11 million accounts on GW2 out there, let's say that's 9 million players to cover all those with multiple accounts. There are over 7 billion people in the world, and a lot of those people are women...just how easily do you think it would be to replace those that left if you kept the employees on board after they offered an apology to the allegedly aggrieved partner? Is this relevant to anything, not really, but you have to look at the bigger picture, not just the current mood of the mobs and community...there's also the non-community players, they are left in the dust because they just don't care. > > > > _P.S. - I'd hire in a heartbeat if I owned and ran a game company, because she does write good and direct good narrative, but my company policy would be clearly stated to the community that my devs are free to do and say what they want on their "personal" social media accounts, that they only speak for the company when on company time, because I believe in separating your work life from your personal life._ > > Excuse me if I didn't get all of this, but i feel like you're comparing a employee to employee crisis with a employee to consumer issue. > This is really different, and should be treated differently. You can treat employee issues internally, but you can't do much if your employee already made a problem public. > MO's statement is actually pretty rational. If they have a problem, they talk to their employer first. I know it's been repeated a thousand times but it's at the core of professionalism to behave while confronting consumers. The interpretation of Polygon however (in the one article - not all of them - where the statement isn't chopped off) tends to act like if they knew everything that went on internally already. > > Also sorry, but it's hard to resist: > "Today, in being a CEO of a video game company: allow me, a person who's never been in charge of a company, to tell you how you do your job" > Your PS looks an awful lot like a member of a forum criticizing a moderator because you think you know better. I don't know if you ever went from normal member to moderator, but it changes your perception on a lot of things. All suddenly, you need to do right by everyone, but just like a game of Tropico, there's always a faction that's gonna feel left out. > So... if you feel entitled to comment on how a CEO operates with very limited information, it should be even more acceptable to comment on a dev's work, even though for them what you're gonna say might sound like narrative design 101. > My P(ost) S(cript) is my personal opinion on how I'd do things, and that's gathered from observations of the leadership of the companies I've worked for, what I've learned from different teachers(business and management) and my own personal philosophy. I do not filter anything, I'm a direct person, I tell like I see it...which is one reason I have to set boundaries, because with me nothing is off the table for discussion, and I do mean nothing. Of course, unless I had unbiased hiring managers then I'd be looking for the same kind of employees, those that don't have filters and are willing to leave everything out on the table for discussion...if and when they want to discuss it. Just because everything is open for discussion does not mean I am willing to discuss it when ever someone brings up a topic, and I'll tell some I don't want to talk about it and walk away...if they persist, well, then I won't say what might happen(it won't come to physical violence, but I am Irish/Italian and that does mean something, whether people want to portray it as stereotyping or not, I know how I act and/or react). Another key component, for every action there is a reaction, but you can't have a reaction without an action. **I'll repeat it again, because everyone keeps missing my point of view, and granted, it's likely in the minority...but an employee should be entitled to have a personal life, and in that personal life they should be able to not have to walk on egg shells whether they mention who they work for not, because it's their personal life and the employer can emphatically state that employees are allowed to be themselves on their own personal social media accounts...however, if they use an official company provided social media account(why companies don't give them to all employees I don't honestly know), then they can be held to the standards set forth by said company.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Redacted. Anyways I think this topic has been beaten to death. Anybody here can read the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > My P(ost) S(cript) is my personal opinion on how I'd do things, and that's gathered from observations of the leadership of the companies I've worked for, what I've learned from different teachers(business and management) and my own personal philosophy. I do not filter anything, I'm a direct person, I tell like I see it...which is one reason I have to set boundaries, because with me nothing is off the table for discussion, and I do mean nothing. Of course, unless I had unbiased hiring managers then I'd be looking for the same kind of employees, those that don't have filters and are willing to leave everything out on the table for discussion...if and when they want to discuss it. Just because everything is open for discussion does not mean I am willing to discuss it when ever someone brings up a topic, and I'll tell some I don't want to talk about it and walk away...if they persist, well, then I won't say what might happen(it won't come to physical violence, but I am Irish/Italian and that does mean something, whether people want to portray it as stereotyping or not, I know how I act and/or react). Another key component, for every action there is a reaction, but you can't have a reaction without an action. > > **I'll repeat it again, because everyone keeps missing my point of view, and granted, it's likely in the minority...but an employee should be entitled to have a personal life, and in that personal life they should be able to not have to walk on egg shells whether they mention who they work for not, because it's their personal life and the employer can emphatically state that employees are allowed to be themselves on their own personal social media accounts...however, if they use an official company provided social media account(why companies don't give them to all employees I don't honestly know), then they can be held to the standards set forth by said company.** People are not missing your points, they are just calling you ignorant and unrealistic. People are entitled to have a personal life but its no longer personal if you talk about your 'private life' in public. Personal social media accounts are only personal so far in as they give the user personal control over the content in those accounts, but it is not personal to who can view and comment in them. Having a 'personal account' that is open to the public does not give immunity to consequences of engaging with the public from the said 'private account' just because you claim it to be private. A 'personal account' is similar to being a person that has control of their own body. You can say what you want, you can associate and don't associate with who you want. But people will judge you on what type of person you are based on your actions and words if you make your presence known to them. And there will be consequences to your actions and words because the expectation is everyone is responsible for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaneel.9208 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 As annoyed as I have been over the years regarding Anet's direction with this game, both story and design wise, I wanted to log in today to applaud Anet's response to this former Dev's action. She took what could have been an engaging discussion and made it about herself as a "female dev". As a female gamer (30's) I'm sick of this self-righteous nonsense going too far. It has a time and place and I believe SHE was the one who responded in a highly unprofessional manner. ALL EMPLOYEES whether male, female, transgender, intersex or otherwise should carry themselves professionally. She should take her complaints to Tumblr. She also was highly unprofessional, writing a swear-word and threatening to ban people. Being female does not give you a right to call people names. If she were my employee, I would have immediately reminded her of that. I have no tolerance for people I supervise who act rudely to clients, customers, patrons, etc. People who use the "female card" make the rest of us look bad in comparison, particularly to the gaming community. Complaining about the community to co-workers, bosses, with friends, sure I can understand. Using social media as a platform to insult people is just bad business. She is a representative of a larger company and should remember that. This action by the dev team makes me feel more warmly toward Anet than I have in a long time. As far as the narrative goes, I am not concerned. I'm not sure what part of the game they had written for, but fresh ideas won't hurt the game at this point, I think. P.S. While i have not consistently been reading every single post made by every single Anet employee ever, I feel that historically, ANET has mostly been respectful, even when they disagreed with fans or wished to write supportive statements for the design decisions they have made over the years. I wanted to applaud you all for that, at the very least. Edit: I also just read that she made a nasty comment about Totalbiscuit/John Bain dying from cancer. I just......first of all I was a fan of TB's for many years. Second of all, I'm pleased that Anet took the action they did. Totalbiscuit was a self-made gaming critic. Was he perfect? No. Did he always say things that made everyone happy? No. But he was a gaming critic. He worked for himself and was sharing his opinions. There were many times where I did not agree with what he said. But to wish him death, or to celebrate his death.........yeah, no, Anet made the right decision. Criticizing him is one thing, celebrating his death....wow. Again, representatives of companies have a responsibility for the public statements they make. Are people gonna be perfect all the time? No way! But it's clear that she has a history of this kind of reactionary behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > > She's made some more comments on twitter. It's pretty much what you'd expect, like she did nothing wrong and blames ArenaNet, claiming they're harassing her by staying silent and letting this continue. She didn't like how MO credited her only for the 1 scene, so... > > > > > > Apparently she was in charge of season 4 and influenced all of it. She starts out saying everything is done by teams, but she led meetings and all dialogue went through her, following with "Everything you've seen of the story so far this season is my work, and you're going to be seeing my work in it for a long time." She goes on to say that a lot of the work we'll be seeing is led by women and it'll be the best content GW2 has ever produced because of it. > > > > Just more proof that this person likes to steer the narrative, double down without a tad of remorse for how she acted, how she also got another dev caught up in it and fired.. whilst still incapable of taking feedback and criticism for it all.. class act imo… its a shame though that she didn't consider taking the kind of action that she has in that latest tweet, after posting out her 25 piece pro tips SA.. so maybe she has learned something.. where the ignore and block buttons are. > > Do you really expect her to be nice after she was fired and in the manner it was done? I sure as hell wouldn't be. As for what she did on LS4 she prefaced it by saying it was a team achievement and if anything she said was incorrect well others at anet are free to disagree with her. TBH I find LS4 to be worse than LS3 overall which was worse than LS2. No you act professionally and if she feels she has a solid case, rather than keep fuelling controversy, take the proper steps not some lopsided interweebs clickbait gamerjourno's, is it really that difficult.. ya know like the other fired dev is doing. No this is all on JP and it's just her continuing to spin her own controversy nothing more imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > When the cases aren't so clear cut. I once caught an employee stealing. Red-handed. There was no defense possible because there was exactly one cashier that day and she rang up a refund I didn't authorize and the supposedly refunded item wasn't anywhere in the store. It filled in some blanks that I'd overlooked in previous weeks that seemed off to me. I fired her on the spot. There was no investigation because she was caught red-handed. > > In this instance, the entire display is it's own evidence. Mike is perfectly capable of reading a twitter feed and making a decision though you can bet he probably did contact legal before implementing the decision. If I were overtly aggressive to a customer of my company even in off hours, I'd expect some sort of discipline. This isn't some marginal situation. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who read the entire conversation know everything they need to know. Whilst I can agree with you in your instance, when someone then reports a issue with something like Harassment, Sexism etc to his or her management it may not be so clear cut and therefore procedures will be in place.. which likely do not require or permit the 2 parties to meet up for a chat, certainly not before the company has taken steps to qualify the claim or not.. If there is no just cause identified, then maybe some supervised mediation could occur if both parties agree. That's all I was saying in answer to the posters own hypotheticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > > > When the cases aren't so clear cut. I once caught an employee stealing. Red-handed. There was no defense possible because there was exactly one cashier that day and she rang up a refund I didn't authorize and the supposedly refunded item wasn't anywhere in the store. It filled in some blanks that I'd overlooked in previous weeks that seemed off to me. I fired her on the spot. There was no investigation because she was caught red-handed. > > > > In this instance, the entire display is it's own evidence. Mike is perfectly capable of reading a twitter feed and making a decision though you can bet he probably did contact legal before implementing the decision. If I were overtly aggressive to a customer of my company even in off hours, I'd expect some sort of discipline. This isn't some marginal situation. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who read the entire conversation know everything they need to know. > > Whilst I can agree with you in your instance, when someone then reports a issue with something like Harassment, Sexism etc to his or her management it may not be so clear cut and therefore procedures will be in place.. which likely do not require or permit the 2 parties to meet up for a chat, certainly not before the company has taken steps to qualify the claim or not.. If there is no just cause identified, then maybe some supervised mediation could occur if both parties agree. That's all I was saying in answer to the posters own hypotheticals. But in this case, the employee wasn't claiming harrassment, and even if she was, she was very much the author of much of what has transpired. She should have walked away, rather than insult a customer, even if she perceived that customer as being provacative. He certainly wasn't directly threatening, and if he were condescending she could have done a lot of things, from blocking him, to walking away from the computer. She chose to engage and in doing so caused a kittenstorm. If that's the case, then there's no investigation that needs to be done. She crossed a line in what she did. You don't have to catch someone red-handed when there's a transcript. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki.6073 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"mygamingid.5816" said: > All legitimate gaming media: "ArenaNet was out of line and dangerously so." > GG/Incel/MRA personalities and their fanboys: "Way to go ArenaNet, now go make me a sandwich!" > > Sometimes, all you have to do is look at the people who agree with you to determine whether you did the right thing or the wrong thing. ArenaNet, take that look and then do something public that shows you're something better than a sockpuppet for the worst parts of the community. You got it right once in March, show you can do it again. The media's job can be described as the following: "I am paid to spread exaggerated stories, and omit any facts we feel will not give us the views/cash flow" They have all the incentive in the world to lie, and absolutely none to tell the truth. Why do you think "legitimate" media hates independent news oriented Youtubers? Also consider the news in general rarely talks about anything positive, and rarely won't exaggerate. Telling the truth objectively is "boring" and "boring" doesn't sell. It's 2018, the age of everything is sexist and men are ruining the world, why wouldn't these "legitimate" news outlets go with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 keep it civil here please, both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > Here I can give you some pointed facts on my reasoning, I'm quite familiar with the issue, but I also make it a point of discussing boundaries when developing a new friendship or working relationship, the reason being is to set definite expectations on what is allowed and not allowed, however, that only works if people listen and are willing to discuss. I've been employed at my current job for 11 years, and during those 11 years I have one official complaint of sexual harassment, it was a blatant false accusation, though the investigation was more like a trial than an investigation()and they do separate the employees to two different work locations). I also filed a counter claim against the one official charge because I had been told by another employee they heard 2 people telling a third person to make the claim(because those 2 people had an agenda against me, for what reason I never found out), and the person that brought the claim apologized to me when they were leaving the job(again, because of another false claim made by others). But my claim was dismissed summarily, whilst the claim against me did not result in any severe disciplinary action, it did result in a discussion and being given the entire 80 page harassment policy book which listed items such as looking at a coworker being considered harassment...yes, you read that right, you can't look at a coworker...our job is to look and observe, I can literally look right through someone to observe something behind or beyond them and not even notice that person is standing in my line of sight. > > The other 2 accusations did not go through official channels and do not appear in my file, but not in any of those instance did the person come to me first and talk to me about it. I won't bite someones head off for telling me they feel uncomfortable around me or with something I said or did, just tell me you don't like and want me to stop and it will. As a matter of fact our organization specifically has it setup so that there is a peer to peer dispute resolution process before escalation, but none of these people took that route, it's encouraged to go through the peer to peer process first(they've taken employees on the same level and trained them in dispute resolution, so it's not like these are just blind sessions), so you have the 2 aggrieved parties sitting down with a third person of the same level as you facilitating the discussion. It's inherently not in the employees best interest to go instantly up the chain of command to resolve disputes as it causes more people to not say anything than it does to say something. > > First step, peer to peer with HR or trained peer observer, if no resolution is possible between the two parties via this route, then you can start moving up the ladder, however this issue rather far off base from the discussion at hand...which I noticed everyone is dismissing all of the game media sites as just bad one sided journalism. How it can be considered one sided, when like with Polygon they published the full response from MO, which if anyone actually read it does not dispute JP's recollection of how the meeting went one iota. Even if you disagree with them backing her, and that's really a separate issue, you have to admit they're making some valid points, just read the latest one in Polygon, I suggest people read it multiple times if they don't grasp the concept of what they're saying in how it's only hurting the industry internally. > > Look at the big picture this way, ArenaNet is not beholden to any shareholders, there's only 1 shareholder in the company, NCSoft, and they chose with GW2 to take a more hands off approach when MO and company convinced them they could self fund continued operations with the same B2P model as GW1 by including a bigger cash shop. So now they still need to make money to send to HQ, but they also need to make money to continue developing the game and paying salaries of employees, that comes from your customers, some of whom make up the community(not all customers are part of the community, the play the game but they don't interact with the foums or on reddit, etc., they don't care about changes, etc., etc.,, the only play the game no matter how the game evolves). You then get these really passionate players that create YouTube videos and Twitch channels and just put the game out there because they really love it, so you create a partner program to give them inside scoop. Now the community that follows the game more intensely than your common player has a source for news(so to speak). Fast forward to the game being out almost 6 years, your games has gone through many changes and the story has evolved, you have finally got a decent(I dare say good) writing team together and your bread and butter Living World seasons are in top form. One of these people who hasn't been with the company very long has a history of standing up against sexism against female devs and allegedly is told that won't be a problem, that she can continue to speak her mind on her personal social media accounts, what details in the social media conduct rules at this company are we do not know, we are not privy to. So this person make a tweet on her personal account, which happens to mention where she works, and the tweets sum up a process on how a particular part of narrative is written, yes, it's open to the public, but it's also basically a statement of fact, as this is how it is done and why. Now, one of these partners, a well respected on evidently(I'd never heard of him before) is enamored of this person, sees the tweet and thinks it's an opening for discussion, so responds. Said dev has had men tell her how to do her job since she entered the field, and continued to do so even after having worked at it for a number of years and has probably tried if not discussed amongst coworkers different ways to try things. This partner(and community member) suggests something that has already been discussed and is basically common knowledge among all devs that work in narrative...yes another male suggesting how she can do her work better, again, instead of just reading the tweets as what they were...this is how it's done and why. We all know what went down from that point forward, so I won't rehash everything, but I will say this, the company can not protect employees from outside harassment(if it exists), but they can lessen it by not broadcasting to the world the outcome of an internal issue. > > I'll also say this, so there's 11 million accounts on GW2 out there, let's say that's 9 million players to cover all those with multiple accounts. There are over 7 billion people in the world, and a lot of those people are women...just how easily do you think it would be to replace those that left if you kept the employees on board after they offered an apology to the allegedly aggrieved partner? Is this relevant to anything, not really, but you have to look at the bigger picture, not just the current mood of the mobs and community...there's also the non-community players, they are left in the dust because they just don't care. > > _P.S. - I'd hire in a heartbeat if I owned and ran a game company, because she does write good and direct good narrative, but my company policy would be clearly stated to the community that my devs are free to do and say what they want on their "personal" social media accounts, that they only speak for the company when on company time, because I believe in separating your work life from your personal life._ You have missed the point ... firstly the gamejourno's quoted MO's response but failed to actually research the facts, except from one side and a cherry picking a few twitter posts.. whilst at the same time failing to quote the part about who, what, and why. They took an controversial narrative as gospel and pushed it out as clickbait to get as greater return as possible, as quick as possible. MO on behalf of ANET has issued two measured responses, but kept the actual detail on any internals pretty much out of it because you know, that's the professional thing to do - you don't air your dirty washing in public. Your experience, though making for compelling reading identifies some confusing conflicts to me. You say you and others are trained to are trained in dispute resolution and that the company has a peer to peer procedure in place.. yet yourself have gone through a process within that company, but it seemingly didn't follow that company peer to peer sessions, or did it.. that's the bit I am confused about because if so why did you have to then got through all the rest of it and be handed a policy book on the topic of harassment, sexism etc. You say 2 other claims never went via the procedure either and that you wont bit someone's head off... well seemingly the other parties felt uncomfortable in going through that , lets talk about notion with you and I can understand that if there truly was anything in the claim.. or if they knew it was fabricated they couldn't face up to that either, which is why the company need to investigate the claims and separate the parties first imo.. so that the claim can be considered without personal feelings influencing it. What if there were some justified issues but at peer to peer the other party felt pressured to conform and so quashed the claim in order to get it over with .. that doesn't root out the issue it merely paints over it. I find it hard to believe a simple peer to peer sit down session would be encouraged when you have a party already potentially feeling at risk... that's the exact reason both parties would be separated on site without delay.. sorry like I said, something isn't adding up to me. I am not saying that's how all companies would work, and yours may well work differently to how I would handle it, but I guess the main point of both our opinions is that there are procedures in place and due process to follow before reaching a decision either way. Of course ANET has to keep self funding in order to keep the game alive, the employees employed and turn a profit. If they didn't then NCSoft would likely flick the power buttons off and then what happens to everyone employed.. you forget, self funding only goes so far. If the game is not delivering what NCSoft want then they not ANET have the final say because they are owned by NCSoft… that's why ANET have to make decisions to protect those sources of revenue and in turn satisfy the shareholders. I would like to think that ANET and any game studio would consider everyone a potential customer both within the games actual playing community and anyone outside of it, so really that point is kind of moot. Those really passionate players that "just put it out there cos they love it".. hmmm they serve a purpose, or enough of one to ANET to provide a partner program. As yourself why, because its a way of gaining audience and new/returning business.. its win-win marketing program which at the same time helps keep current players playing and offers help and advice to overcome things within the game itself. Fast forwarding 6 six.. sounds like an achievement already, but lets not just discount GW1 as well with some of team have been around longer than the 6 years GW2 has been here.. so its not all about, finally ANET getting a decent writing team, that's pretty subjective and ever so slightly insulting imo. That one person who hasn't been with the company that long has a history of controversy not just specific to sexism. So a male ANET partner, who as you rightly say is a big fan of JP takes it upon himself to try to engage in discussion with someone he respected even calling her an AMA God 24hrs previous on his channel. If JP is so well versed in dealing with "people" discussing and debating her ideas, opinions and actual content (you know the stuff we see, we hear, we play on a daily basis) and that the simple things like branching dialogues is already debated internally by both men and women in her field.. was it so difficult for her simply say to Deroir, "thanks for that thought and let me assure you as experienced professionals we have already examined ar3eas like branching dialogues early on within the narrative development process".. gender was not on the cards .. take the visual out of the equation and just use the words Deroir used.. how can you remotely tell whether it was a man or women saying it, and if it were a women how would the response of gone.. because it should not change at all.. the gender card was a defence mechanism she played once she found out the poster was a man, or perhaps already knew who Deroir was, being that he is a big fan of hers. Bottom line there was no gender angle at play here until JP fabricated it and implanted it into the debate for effect , stirring up the very thing she seemingly to thrive on.. controversy. ANET put a reasoned set of responses out on the issue of the company firing the devs, it did nothing more than that, they have taken a bigger person approach, not wishing to engage in mud slinging and airing their dirty washing in public.. that is just being professional about it and not wanting to create any more drama than is necessary considering the amount JP has already caused... you forget the part where ANET are not the broadcasting bad stuff, .. wait maybe they are because of course JP started all this drama and controversy, JP set the aggressive tone, she is the one who set about fuelling controversy to feed her own narrative and agenda whilst representing ANET within the community and is continuing to double down on it now she is no longer with the company... Have you seen an apology to Deroir.. I haven't Have you seen an apology to ANET for bringing them into disrepute with the community - I haven't ANET took the decision they did because they looked at the bigger picture.. you said it yourself, 11million accounts (my guess is around 1.5-3million are concurrently active and are a main account but whatever).. then consider every person over a certain age is a potential customer (new or returning). Now look at the potential to loose more accounts through this PR disaster and those 1-3 active million accounts and the bean counters suddenly see an alarming fact starting to appear.. the numbers of new players isn't there, but the there has also been a downturn in activity.. and cost cutting is now required... and this data is something ANET will more than likely be able to analyse and pinpoint back to specific turns in events.. and this is that kind of event that has the potential to do more harm than good to the bigger picture. Twitter is not private unless you make it .. no one forced JP to advertise her position in the company and then direct work related content into that public space for consideration and critique. ANET will have a policy in place to outline channels of communication and the expectations of conduct when choosing to use them in regard to discussing work related content.. she failed to uphold those expectations and values of the company.. there is no argument there imo . Work, life balance... not sure how you can hold ANET accountable for a dev taking it upon herself to promote work related material to the community on her own time.. thus making it the fault of the employee for balancing work and life appropriately.. further compounded by acting grossly unprofessional to the point of absurdity imo. Sorry yours and mines facts and opinions don't seem to be finding much common ground I guess.. but that's just it, we don't have to but at the same time we don't have to mud sling and make unfounded, unwarranted accusation either. Enjoy the rest of your day.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward.4792 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 All this said, something good might come of this mess: GWU's reporting substantial increases in membership in the past week, with a majority citing Price and Fries' firing specifically as their catalyst for seeking unionization. Maybe Good Guy Mo was just looking out for game devs, trying to give them the push the needed to finally move from "broadly supporting industry-wide unionization" to actually Doing Unionization. /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > > > > > When the cases aren't so clear cut. I once caught an employee stealing. Red-handed. There was no defense possible because there was exactly one cashier that day and she rang up a refund I didn't authorize and the supposedly refunded item wasn't anywhere in the store. It filled in some blanks that I'd overlooked in previous weeks that seemed off to me. I fired her on the spot. There was no investigation because she was caught red-handed. > > > > > > In this instance, the entire display is it's own evidence. Mike is perfectly capable of reading a twitter feed and making a decision though you can bet he probably did contact legal before implementing the decision. If I were overtly aggressive to a customer of my company even in off hours, I'd expect some sort of discipline. This isn't some marginal situation. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who read the entire conversation know everything they need to know. > > > > Whilst I can agree with you in your instance, when someone then reports a issue with something like Harassment, Sexism etc to his or her management it may not be so clear cut and therefore procedures will be in place.. which likely do not require or permit the 2 parties to meet up for a chat, certainly not before the company has taken steps to qualify the claim or not.. If there is no just cause identified, then maybe some supervised mediation could occur if both parties agree. That's all I was saying in answer to the posters own hypotheticals. > > But in this case, the employee wasn't claiming harrassment, and even if she was, she was very much the author of much of what has transpired. She should have walked away, rather than insult a customer, even if she perceived that customer as being provacative. He certainly wasn't directly threatening, and if he were condescending she could have done a lot of things, from blocking him, to walking away from the computer. She chose to engage and in doing so caused a kittenstorm. If that's the case, then there's no investigation that needs to be done. She crossed a line in what she did. You don't have to catch someone red-handed when there's a transcript. I think we are actually agreeing about the same thing.. but I was putting it back to a poster that outlined a hypothetical situation.. not the actual current one :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > keep it civil here please, both sides. It's just a troll account setup for effect best to ignore and let the sun turn it to stone.. if the sun can penetrate that far down in lala land :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Crazies are always fun as hell to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithis.3564 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 This **social** media platform has a **private** setting.. but was set on **public**. Ratonality I choose youuuuuuuuuuuuu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Sithis.3564" said: > This **social** media platform has a **private** setting.. but was set on **public**. > > Ratonality I choose youuuuuuuuuuuuu! Some men just want to watch the world burn ~ (and women too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithis.3564 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Can we close this topic already? Nothing new can be added to this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > Crazies are always fun as hell to read. And report to moderators! Sad part is, I expect the last page to be deleted, or cleaned up, soon-ish which means we'll lose all these gems! > @"Sithis.3564" said: > This **social** media platform has a **private** setting.. but was set on **public**. Exactly. Plus there have been people held accountable for what they type on social media since 2009 (that I know of) Complaining about it now is like 9 years too late. Accountability and responsibility for your actions is something people learn as they become adults, some are stuck in their teen years it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > Crazies are always fun as hell to read. Certainly no need for coffee this morning to get the senses tingling :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > Im assuming that cMonsta is looking to get banned, so I am just going to ignore them. > > That said, nothing is personal once you are recognized as a professional, you must put on a professional persona, weather you are a celebrity or just a worker at McDonalds. > For example, you work at say... a pet grooming store, your stores most valuable customer somehow finds you on twitter and engages.... should you be fired for telling them off? > What if your boss finds you? think you will get off being belligerent at them? I would personally put the limit at whether you advertise your company or not. Which is where JP's argument is dishonest, that AND she was talking about her work. At my work Twitter and other social medias are clearly mentioned as places where you can potentially expose the company, and so you "have" to be careful. My "defense" is simply to have an anon account. IRL if you're being a jerk to customers, you can be damaging a company. If you put your name, and job on twitter on a public account, it's not that different from discussing about something IRL. The exception is the creation of an anon account... Of course, you could also choose to just be generally nice by default, but social medias aren't exactly promoting that... Also, sad to say, but not all industries are equal. The amount of damage you can make whether you're being a jerk while working at Walmart of at the head of an IT department is really different. Businesses act rationally to stay in business. Nobody like firing people just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithis.3564 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Troll! Where? ! Someone bring a torch! Heeeeelp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I do wonder, if *part* of the reason JP & PF were let go is because ArenaNet were concerned JP's Twitter posts, while wearing the company badge, might open them up to libel/slander lawsuits. [https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/991198656266059779](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/991198656266059779 "https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/991198656266059779") In this thread, it can be inferred, that she was accusing Marvel of racism. Jebro waded in on that one. EDIT: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Sithis.3564" said: > Can we close this topic already? Nothing new can be added to this conversation. Pretty sure that's what the troll account posting stuff here is in fact attempting to do just without asking politely. I say this thread should stay open.. it highlights the issues of acting unprofessionally on social media whilst considered to be representing your employer, their standards and goals. Just because people don't agree, doesn't mean it should be swept aside just because some random troll account jumps in to try and steer the debate away from meaningful debate to fact less aggression and big iam malarkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > Im assuming that cMonsta is looking to get banned, so I am just going to ignore them. > > > > That said, nothing is personal once you are recognized as a professional, you must put on a professional persona, weather you are a celebrity or just a worker at McDonalds. > > For example, you work at say... a pet grooming store, your stores most valuable customer somehow finds you on twitter and engages.... should you be fired for telling them off? > > What if your boss finds you? think you will get off being belligerent at them? > > I would personally put the limit at whether you advertise your company or not. > Which is where JP's argument is dishonest, that AND she was talking about her work. > At my work Twitter and other social medias are clearly mentioned as places where you can potentially expose the company, and so you "have" to be careful. My "defense" is simply to have an anon account. > IRL if you're being a jerk to customers, you can be damaging a company. If you put your name, and job on twitter on a public account, it's not that different from discussing about something IRL. > The exception is the creation of an anon account... > Of course, you could also choose to just be generally nice by default, but social medias aren't exactly promoting that... > > Also, sad to say, but not all industries are equal. The amount of damage you can make whether you're being a jerk while working at Walmart of at the head of an IT department is really different. > Business act rationally to stay in business. Nobody like firing people just for fun. I disagree *slightly* being recognized is the most important factor, advertised or not. If People know where you work, then there is not difference in the end. People will see you as a representative, you will be reported as a representitive, and people will decide to support the company they recognize you as being part of due to your representation. JP is pretty well recognized by the community as a GW2 writer, being left off her profile does not magically stop people from recognizing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > I say this thread should stay open.. it highlights the issues of acting unprofessionally on social media whilst considered to be representing your employer, their standards and goals. Just because people don't agree, doesn't mean it should be swept aside just because some random troll account jumps in to try and steer the debate away from meaningful debate to fact less aggression and big iam malarkey. Not to mention, if it closes, a new one will soon be opened. Better have one of these around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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