Edge.4180 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said: > > If she had admitted she was wrong in her approach things likely would be different. To this day she deflects responsibility for her actions and has looked to place the blame instead, on her employer. > > I'll say it again after being sacked and the way it happened she's hardly going to feel very charitable towards anet. An employee (who voluntarily advertises her association with a company in her Twitter bio) opens a discussion regarding the company's product on a public Twitter account, and then repeatedly attacks a fan who attempts to participate in that discussion. On top of this, the employee exhibits sexist behavior throughout her attacks on this fan, clearly displaying bias and prejudice against the fan because of his gender. In turn, the company fires the employee for failing to uphold their standards for community interactions. When you say "being sacked and the way it happened", I'm wondering what transgression you're suggesting Price has a right to be upset about. She should look no further than herself is she's looking to assign blame. The only person she needs to be upset with is the one staring back at her in the mirror. That aside, have you seen an apology from Price yet directed to the fan she attacked? Or is she not feeling very charitable there either? I suppose that would require Price to say something along the lines of _"I made a horrible mistake and misjudged your interest in my discussion. I'm truly sorry."_, which, gosh, is too much civility to ask for these days, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulrig.9832 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 When I first heard about the event, it was after the devs had been fired. At the time, I felt that it was the right thing to do; after all, if you work for a company you represent it even when you're not at the office. Especially for those in senior positions, your words and actions reflect the policies and beliefs of the company you work for. To callously attack a customer is simply unacceptable for any employee at any level, and I mentally cheered for Anet for standing by the fans. It's sad that it happened at all, but I believe the correct actions were taken in response to the event. Later I heard that Price in particular decided to wage a Twitter war against Anet and somehow got the major games journalists on her side, and it simply hardened my resolve to not read anything they put out. Yellow news and paid reviews are pretty much all they do, and defending the indefensible by skewing facts and reporting outright lies does nothing to make me want to generate clicks on their articles. Late in the evening on the 12th, I heard that this debacle is still going on. So I decided to show my support for Anet by buying the Path of Fire - Ultimate edition. I hope this shows that while the mainstream media and hashtag warriors may whine and moan, having the strength of character to defend the customer and demonstrating a willingness to work with fans to create something beautiful will bring in new customers and new fans. It's always sad to see developers go, because their unique voices are no longer heard and their take on storytelling and game design is lost. Also gone is their expertise in actually making it happen, and that means it's more difficult for the company to share their creation with us. But at the end of they day it's the customer who pays to keep the lights on. So uh... yeah. Gonna start up a new adventure this weekend and see if GW2 is the game for me. Even if it isn't, Anet has my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendou.9620 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Gendou.9620" said: > > Everyone who thinks the decision was wrong, Imagine the backlash against ANET for not firing her. "ANET cares nothing about the community, devs can say whatever they want." Game "journalists" write articles about company that defends devs treating its community like crap. > > They could have not fired her and still been seen to be doing something about her. And this goes especially to Peter. > > Except your argument is flawed, do you know how many people asked for her to be fired, and the thanks they received? This wouldn't be a parade of arguments without both sides, you have a majority wanting her fired, saying she deserved it, and a few people who think she is a good person(even though she attacks people for no reason). Not firing her would have sent a mass of people complaining about how unacceptable that was, how ANET tolerates behavior like hers, then you would have the same wave of people saying "I quit this game, anet has lost my respect" blah blah sort of posts. This was the point I was trying to initially make, ANET shouldn't even have had to make a decision because it wasnt fair to them, SHE put them in this situation by making everyone go "SO ANET WHAT YOU GONNA DO?! YOU GONNA FIRE HER?! OR KEEP HER AND ANGER EVERYONE?! GAMES JOURNALISTS GET YOUR PENS READY!!!!!! Because we are gonna make this a juicy mess of nonsense and try to ruin a company no matter the outcome!" She made a goddamn nightmare for a company and made them force their hand, it is despicable!!! There are so many people on both sides of this which has set ANET up for failure on the whole situation no matter what they do. You all should be ashamed, these are game devs who work their asses off for a nonsubscription MMO who have families as well, and are real people with real lives. There is no right decision, but there is a cause, and SHE is the cause! PERIOD! And she should be held responsible for this entire mess! Don't think for a second that ANET was safe if they didn't fire her.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Gendou.9620" said: > > Everyone who thinks the decision was wrong, Imagine the backlash against ANET for not firing her. "ANET cares nothing about the community, devs can say whatever they want." Game "journalists" write articles about company that defends devs treating its community like crap. > > > > Are you all that naive to not understand the underlying point here? SHE GAVE THEM NO CHOICE!!!! Meaning whether they did or didn't act they had to shoot themselves in the foot. To put a company in that position is the worst thing you could do. > > Why is firing the only possible avenue? Is the player base so bloodthirsty that nothing less than expulsion will sate them? > Why not an official tweet disavowing her views, praising Deroir and encouraging him to keep up his work, and to really give them their bread, toss in an XP booster weekend and call it a day? > > At the very least, why fire both FP and JP, and not only JP? > > Now, you want to talk about an outcry that demands action? Perhaps people don't remember when HoT came out, which ANET had been pushing pre-orders for for months, and half of the content which was promised wasn't available on release (legendaries, raids, guild halls). Or the PvP season debacle where thousands of players got wedged out of their slots by PvP game partners who outright cheated at the game and got away with it. Perhaps people don't remember the time MO cancelled HoT's legendaries altogether. > > What were players given for that? > > Nothing. > > And yet the game lives on. A few less people playing, but it lives on. > > This was a tweet. People didn't buy GW2 HoT or PoF to not be offended on twitter. None of the marketing materials promised any dev interactions at all. To participate in paid content is to reasonably expect to be treated well by the company within the scope of that content. To engage in twitter or reddit drama entitles no one to anything. This entire outcry wouldn't have happened had people simply ignored anything outside of the game—just as they ignored JP's post about Totalbiscuit. It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. As for KF.. I think I have made position on his "no longer with the company" pretty clear already in this thread.. I am confused with it, because I too did not see enough of a reason for instantly dismissing him when comparing the severity of his words and actions to that of JP. But that is just it, we don't know all the why's and wherefores in this, we are not parley to all that has gone on.. but what we can see are two people acting like polar opposites after they met with consequence this week. Was KF fired or did he walk? only those ultimately involved in this whole mess know the whole story and that's how it should be.. unless of course your JP where everything ANET is on the menu and she is hungry. If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. I remember posting in the threads on here about the issue and that in fact a perma ban should of been imposed, but to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... just like you can't hold ANET responsible for people going out of their way to harass, abuse and act like outright jerks on social media platforms (and I mean people on all sides of this current debacle, not just the game devs themselves). All ANET can do is deal with the parts they do have control over and where they are able to take action... which in both cases they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soa Cirri.6012 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Edge.4180" said: > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > Was KF fired or did he walk? PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? Um.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"DorDor.8617" said: > I think everyone's missing the bigger picture, as far as the Verge article goes. Whether it's "biased journalism" or not, those quotes tell us something very important: there's a ton of tension inside the Arenanet offices right now. > > And that tension, **regardless of what you think of the firings themselves,** is perfectly rational. Jessica and Peter were fired quickly, over a set of regulations that apparently haven't been updated (or even deeply discussed) for a very long time. One of them was protected by thirteen years of tenure at that company, and it did nothing to save his job. If that happened in my workplace, I wouldn't exactly be psyched about my job security. I'd be terrified of rocking the boat, because according to the precedent the bosses just set, I won't get a second chance if I screw up. > > I've been in that kind of work environment before, and it isn't just stressful. It stifles creativity and disincentives community outreach. If not addressed quickly, it'll have a serious impact on the work output of the dev team, and it'll be fertile ground for the unfolding PR disaster. > > Mike O'Brien, return your house to order. I've seen how these things go, and this isn't going away unless you, personally, step up and address community concerns. I am pretty sure there are tensions in workplaces all over the globe, not just at ANET and for a whole range of reasons not just someone getting fired in situations like this. Can you honestly say that if JP was allowed to stay there would be less of that tension, can you honestly say that JP was not part of the problem internally, in fact aside from a few twitter posts can you honestly say a precedent has been set here. Just because an employee has ben employed for x number of years doesn't mean they are not accountable for their actions, in fact I would say with experience comes knowledge and therefore KF should of considered the possible impact of jumping into this whole sorry affair more carefully. By the way I don't disagree with what you say especially how such tensions can create such an environment where trust is frayed and I agree it can stifle creativity and output for sure, but equally so can coming into work everyday seeing / hearing repeated of internal issues, the culling of staff as revenues dictate cuts.. all these things would of been considered and likely still are being considered internally by the senior management of the company. In fact I would hazard a guess some form of open discussion has already taken place to break it down to the employees and to reassert their goals and values.. it's not about setting precedents and wielding the big stick its about creating understanding, re-establishing that trust and opening the door to listening to any concerns others may have or be feeling. At least that is what I would be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Rather than validating JP's response to Deroir by his public show of support, why didn't PF try to talk JP off the ledge so to speak? Even if PF saw Deroir's post the same way JP did - didn't PF work at ANet long enough to know there was a process for handling social media harrassment? I just don't get it. Another thought could be that PF was defending JP's reaction because of the abuse JP says she's endured within the industry - not necessarily validating JP's response to Deroir as appropriate, but attempting, while under the influence, to provide a back story that would explain JP's outburst towards a fan/creator/partner. Has PF's intention perhaps been misunderstood? All JP had to do was wait one day - *one day* - to report her perception of Deroir's tweet(s) to ArenaNet for them to handle. And this whole thing might never have happened. What a waste. :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 _ **“The firings have also made ArenaNet a tense place for many who work there. The Verge spoke with several developers who are currently employed at ArenaNet who requested anonymity in order to speak freely and without fear of retribution. Employees say they feel a mixture of uncertainty, anger, and sadness over the past week’s events. Some describe the events over the last week as a betrayal — evidence that, despite tall talk of support and inclusion, their employer will abandon them when push comes to shove. Many managers were away on vacation at the time of the firings (including both Price and Fries’ direct supervisor), which has fueled internal confusion. Employees say that what they’ve heard has come down from the executive level.** Although opinions about the firings fall across the board, many people at the studio are angry. “Everyone agrees something is wrong,” one employee tells The Verge. “Some blame the media, some blame Jessica, some blame unclear social media policies, some blame the internet mob, and some blame [Mike O’Brien].” Others worry about the sustainability of their careers at ArenaNet and hope that their employer will speak up while there’s still time to recover. Two employees confirmed that ArenaNet has not significantly revised its social media policy since 2011, and that it includes general rules about anti-harassment and being mindful of how individual tweets might be read as representative of the company. But they say penalties and consequences for violating those guidelines had not been discussed with employees, and they fear the precedent set now is a one-strike termination. In the uproar following the firings, they say ArenaNet is only now working to revise it. Fries’ firing has been especially jarring for many employees, as the gentleness of his comments makes it difficult to see how they could be characterized by ArenaNet as “attacks on the community.” In a series of now-deleted tweets, Fries spoke up in support of Price. Everyone liked Fries, says one developer, adding that even fans in the Guild Wars 2 subreddit echoed this sentiment. His firing has had a particularly strong “chilling effect in the studio,” says another current employee. “I think this is blood in the water for the worst kind of people, and not just the ones who run around screaming slurs at people on social media and brigading studio HR departments, but YouTubers with 50K+ subscribers who fearmonger about kitten,” they tell The Verge. “And if ArenaNet wants to rebuild its reputation with the most marginalized in the industry (ironically enough, Jessica was probably one of our biggest cheerleaders for how good our diversity was), it will start by acknowledging that.”_ I'm highlighting that particular part for a reason...if it's true the direct Supervisors of both Fries and Price were on vacation then this decision should have waited until they returned and could be included in it. I know that the public image of ArenaNet was taking a hammering, which it should not have just because JP included that she was part of the ArenaNet Narrative Team in here Twitter profile, even if she had left that off and only used her name, people knew who she was and where she worked. Second, if the ArenaNet social network policy was 7 years old and didn't include a table of penalties, that's on them and them alone. Whether I condone JP's rant or not is really besides the point, everyone is going to have a difference of opinion, just like everyone is going to interpret whether or not what Deroir said was condescending and/or sexist. There's something I haven't seen much said on here, when writing something on the internet, you have to expect different readers to interpret it in different ways depending on how you write it. It therefore behooves you to make sure that your writing is in the least way suggestive of anything sounding like talking down to or trying to be combative. I personally interpreted Deroir original Tweet as a little condescending and possibly sounding like he knew more than she did about narrative design, but that is my interpretation and everyones is going to be different. Also, the quotes mention the executive level, and I'm not going to say what others think but the executive level at ArenaNet isn't what I would call a typical company structure. As far as I know it starts at the top with the CEO Mike O'Brien, then you have the Game Director Mike Z, and the various department heads, I'm not sure they have any VP's or Executive VP's, etc.. Actually it would be a waste of money if they did, they only need Managers for each department that report directly to either Mike Z or MO, but, if you this came from MO, which tells me that Mike Z wasn't involved...you do not make a decision in a vacuum, you include your entire "management" team that might have a stake in the outcome, at least that's how it should be done. You also do not listen to your customers, firing is purely a business decision, regardless of what kind of business you're in, there are numerous ways to appease the community, if you feel it's necessary. Third, and this goes to something Deroir said in his own comments on the matter he produced a day later. He said that he had no control over his followers, this is actually a patented false answer. He might not have absolute control over them, but he does exert some control over them and he could have nipped this in the bud almost immediately. Had he bothered to tell people, don't worry about it, I'm fine, I understand she might have misunderstood my point and felt slighted, there's no need for a witch hunt, then the only people calling for her read would have been those non-GW2 playing members aka non-community members. Would that have changed the outcome, that's speculation, but all people that have followers have control over their actions and reactions(unless your followers are an unruly mob). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > Um.... Nice cherry picking there. An employee who chose to represent the company out of hours on a public platform and then set about discussing work related content. makes it company business no matter the platform used and last time I logged into Twitter it was not a private platform unless I choose to make it Anon. Twitter is public platform and in choosing to continue on from stellar God like AMA input, whilst advertising herself as an ANET employee she made a judgement call to offer out her thoughts about the role and specifically content namely PC pro tips back to her work at ANET.. no one forced it upon her to do so, she made that call by herself.. unless of course you are also saying that MO's words are not to be taken at face value. What ensued was JP bringing the company into disrepute and KF made a bad call to get himself involved with it, especially when it was already going off the rails over nothing but one persons desire for controversy. Of course people getting angry is not a new thing on Twitter, but when it has a business angle those actions have consequence.. or are you saying JP is the first person to get fired over a twitter meltdown which saw her aggressively attack a customer, a content partner and then set about twisting the narrative to one of sexism, which turned the whole thing into something much, much uglier. BTW I didn't say I think KF wasn't fired, in fact most of the way through this thread I actually have thought the very same thing, hence why on several occasions I have said I was very confused as to why... but another poster made an interesting point of challenge to this fact and when I went back and reread MO' statements I could see how there may be some merit in questioning whether he was fired or not.. MO does not actually state he was, he does clearly state that 2 employees failed to uphold the standards and expectation ANET have when engaging with customers and they are no longer with the company... suggest he had been fired yes but it does not state it. As for choices in the decisions to fire JP.. no imo there was none.. aside from the fallout with the community she had already created there was just as bigger chance keeping her would have an equally damaging effect on the business and as I have repeatedly said.. you or I have no idea if there were any other factors already exposed internally that were factored in.. MO would not of just woke up that morning and said to himself, she's fired. This is not some reality game show, this is a multi million dollar operation with a full set of procedures and process set in place and I for one trust them to of put due diligence into the arriving at the decisions they did rather than setting about and acting in the same unprofessional way JP did. ANET were policing the issue with JP.. in fact MO clearly stated they were aware all day of what was going down and conveniently on a national holiday where I would guess the cause and effect could be greater. ANET don't control Twitter, JP controls her Twitter usage and her conduct when using it. ANET do police there own game mechanics, not as well as I would like I grant you that.. but if the recent ban wave is anything to go by and the fact they publicly announced the banning of those PvP cheats, suggests they do take action, maybe not as strongly as some of us like and of course cheats will always find a way to circumnavigate mechanics even after being banned on one account. Of course a potential customer doing some research on the game and coming across this mess, reading up on comments like.." I don't pretend to have to like you here", berating the community in general and such will have effects on decisions to buy . That is the whole reason for protecting the company's image, why there are communication policies, company goals and an expectation that employees will uphold those standards and values when choosing to engage with customers and potential customers.. that is Business 101. When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. I will be honest and say I can't recall any balance/patch release issues that were noticeably out of schedule, but then again I don't plan life around ANET release dates so if they run over by a day, a week, a month, 3 months it doesn't really bother me and I would hazard a guess I am not alone there. Unfortunately MMO's are a fickle thing and delivering content patches, balance passes, new builds will always meet with issue. ANET are no different to any other when it comes to this. However I will say to date I can only recall one major issue which resulted in a roll back, downtime has been minimal and schedules don't go to far off their expected cadence. I will say however that the cadence to me might be having an effect on the quality of some patches and their ability to react quickly to fix some issues the community becomes vocal about, but its a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation imo… I too have been vocal at times in regards to ANETS patching QA. I would not be upset personally if ANET decided to extend the schedule to give themselves more time.. but that's me, cos I still remember the days when 12- 18 months was not unheard of for new content/balance passes to be released in MMO's I have played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > There's something I haven't seen much said on here, when writing something on the internet, you have to expect different readers to interpret it in different ways depending on how you write it. Which means absolutely nothing in this case. Even if she found Deroir's comment offensive, he apologized after making that tweet: > You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it. And still got harassed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Chocolate.5870 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > It doesn't matter AT ALL if she thinks it was right, it wasn't. If someone says 2+2=7 and insults the opposite gender for disagreeing, are you going to defend that because the person is so blind to reality that they think they're right? > > I'm not ignoring anything. The frequency is irrelevant to the principle, whether it's one time or a hundred. But your reductio ad absurdum is helpful. I wasn't going to post in this thread, but as a mathematician I feel like I should correct some errors here. Firstly, that's not what reductio ad absurdum is. Reductio ad absurdum is proof by contradiction (literally "reduction to absurdity"); it's a proof method in which you assume that the thing you want to prove is false, and then from that, deduce a logical contradiction. That's not what Ephemiel was doing. > So they say 2+2=7 and insult someone for disagreeing? Well, math is an abstract concept, just as ethical beliefs are. How do you really "prove" that it's wrong? 2+2=7 is only wrong within the most popularly accepted standard of maths. So in other words, when they say 2+2=7, they're wrong according to what is popular. But does popular consensus automatically make something "right"? It's true that 2 + 2 = 7 in certain contexts (e.g. arithmetic modulo 3, or in the the zero ring), but (a) in those contexts, it's still also true that 2 + 2 = 4, and (b) you would have to be clear about what context you're working in. If someone were to claim that 2 + 2 = 7, with no clarification of the context, they would be wrong (or, at best, expressing themselves badly); if they were to claim 2 + 2 = 7 modulo 3, they would be right. This is nothing to do with "popular consensus", which has no bearing on mathematical truth. > We are all, to a degree, blind to reality when it comes to moral judgment. No one of us has a monopoly on, or exclusive access to, knowledge of right and wrong. To punish someone for their profession of belief is to assert that your beliefs are correct, and theirs aren't. JP is asserting that she's right and everyone else is wrong. You're asserting that she's wrong, and you're right. But how do you prove that exactly? The more abstract the belief is, the more impossible it becomes to prove. Actually, abstract statements (in the mathematical sense) are the only statements that it's possible to prove. I think you're misusing the word "abstract" here to draw some weird analogy with maths. I think you actually mean "subjective" or "arbitrary". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > Um.... > (Snip) > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. (Snip) This is the Oct 2015 blog post on Legendaries: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/ The relevant part I found was >The Birth of a Second Generation >Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns heralds the beginning of the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of twenty included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three we’ll release are a celestially themed axe called Astralaria, an experimental energy themed pistol called H.O.P.E., and a raven spirit themed staff called Nevermore. It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, **we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.** Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. So 3 at launch after launch of HOT and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. 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Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > > > Um.... > > > > (Snip) > > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. > > (Snip) > > This is the Oct 2015 blog post on Legendaries: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/ > > The relevant part I found was > > >The Birth of a Second Generation > > >Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns heralds the beginning of the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of twenty included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three we’ll release are a celestially themed axe called Astralaria, an experimental energy themed pistol called H.O.P.E., and a raven spirit themed staff called Nevermore. It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, **we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.** Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. Thanks Fleshy.. question - was that set of three actually released with HoT or within their schedule shortly after (sorry just edited in this.. reading is hard sometimes :) ).. I don't pay much relevance to Legendaries, I choose to slowly work on mine as I enjoy playing the game, visiting maps to obtain the necessary parts rather than buy them all.. call me old fashioned I guess but to me that's the achievement :) .. I digress - what I mean is I just never looked into what new ones were available, still don't except I finished Astralaria around 3 months ago :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > > > > > Um.... > > > > > > > (Snip) > > > > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. > > > > (Snip) > > > > This is the Oct 2015 blog post on Legendaries: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/ > > > > The relevant part I found was > > > > >The Birth of a Second Generation > > > > >Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns heralds the beginning of the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of twenty included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three we’ll release are a celestially themed axe called Astralaria, an experimental energy themed pistol called H.O.P.E., and a raven spirit themed staff called Nevermore. It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, **we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.** Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > > > > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. > > Thanks Fleshy.. question - was that set of three actually released with HoT.. I don't pay much relevance to Legendaries, I choose to slowly work on mine as I enjoy playing the game, visiting maps to obtain the necessary parts rather than buy them all.. call me old fashioned I guess but to me that's the achievement :) .. I digress - what I mean is I just never looked into what new ones were available, still don't except I finished Astralaria around 3 months ago :) My bad. Not at launch (as I recall) Just the first 3 released after launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > In the absence of clear guidelines as to "number of strikes" allowed, I believe that reasonable individuals would assume that the company would address such issues on a per-case basis, and that a one-strike offense might well be possible. Maybe that makes me a dinosaur who believes in assuming personal responsibility and accepting the consequence of actions. Yeah. Reading that thread i am constantly suprised that some people seem to think that this is somehow new, and that you weren't held to certain standarts of behaviour before the twitter era. Because you definitely _were_. Even if those standarts were not clearly stated anywhere - and they weren't, because most people assumed they were _that_ obvious. > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > It is not [arbitrary] > > Not arbitrary? But you said whether they're punished or not is because: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Some people get lucky. > > Luck _is_ arbitrary. It's random. That's the literal definition of arbitrary. It also refers to unrestrained unilateral power, like the sort a twitter or reddit mob wields. Yes. Luck is. The reasons why she was fired weren't. If you're playing russian roulette, you may get lucky once, twice, but if you do get your head blown off, it _won't_ be for arbitrary reasons. It would be because you have pointed a loaded gun at your head and pulled a trigger. Don't do that, and you're safe. > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Gendou.9620" said: > > Everyone who thinks the decision was wrong, Imagine the backlash against ANET for not firing her. "ANET cares nothing about the community, devs can say whatever they want." Game "journalists" write articles about company that defends devs treating its community like crap. > > They could have not fired her Yes, they could. In which case she'd probably do something like that again in the future, and they'd be in even worse mess. Remember also, that we _don't_ know how she behaved during her meeting with MO. Seeing her behaviour later on, it's entirely possible that she has actively prevented any possibility of this being treated any other way. Additionally, her behaviour later shows, that firing her was the right decision, because she still doesn't seem to understand what the problem was. When you have an employee that caused massive problem for you, you don't have to fire them for it, but only if you can hope that this employee will learn not to cause such problems in the future. In case of JP, there is clearly no such hope. > @"morrolan.9608" said: > As noted above your post anet didn't have a clear social media policy that set out possible sanctions. I didn't say that. I said that there may be edge cases, but her definitely _wasn't_ one. And as for sanctions... seriously, if you do something especially stupid and damaging to the company's image, you _should_ be expecting massive fallout, up to (and including) getting fired. You shouldn't need to have it spelled out for you. It's not a system of law, where you can get out on technicality even if it's clear you were guilty. Also, seriously, all JP had to do to be in the clear was to be _civil_ while telling Deroir she disagrees and doesn't think he has an argument worth her time. If she was able to keep to good manners while in a public arena (and twitter _is_ a public arena) nothing would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > > > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > > > > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > > > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > > > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > > > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > > > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > > > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > > > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > > > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > > > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > > > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > > > > > > > Um.... > > > > > > > > > > (Snip) > > > > > > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. > > > > > > (Snip) > > > > > > This is the Oct 2015 blog post on Legendaries: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/ > > > > > > The relevant part I found was > > > > > > >The Birth of a Second Generation > > > > > > >Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns heralds the beginning of the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of twenty included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three we’ll release are a celestially themed axe called Astralaria, an experimental energy themed pistol called H.O.P.E., and a raven spirit themed staff called Nevermore. It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, **we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.** Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > > > > > > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. > > > > Thanks Fleshy.. question - was that set of three actually released with HoT.. I don't pay much relevance to Legendaries, I choose to slowly work on mine as I enjoy playing the game, visiting maps to obtain the necessary parts rather than buy them all.. call me old fashioned I guess but to me that's the achievement :) .. I digress - what I mean is I just never looked into what new ones were available, still don't except I finished Astralaria around 3 months ago :) > > My bad. Not at launch (as I recall) Just the first 3 released after launch. Yeah I just edited my reply as I misread yours.. so all good :) Though to be honest, how this ties back to JP's unprofessional behaviour and her subsequent firing is.. minimal at best, but thanks for helping clear up a question raised through this somewhat minor relevance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 How we interpret text on a screen I think can be influenced by our state of mind at the time. Some might see Deroir's apology as disingenuous because he starts off with an accusation (founded or not doesn't matter to the receiver) and ends with an exit that could be interpreted as him attempting to have the last word. When my husband and I have had disagreements, we've both used the 'I'll leave you to it.' as the 'last word.' before walking out of the room. I'm American, he is British. Occasionally, we do have language conflicts that fuel disagreements - until one of us twigs there has been a misunderstanding and finds a way to clarify. We have been together for 20 years...but it still happens. Gender and nationality do factor in whether we like it or not. Remember that English is not Deroir's first language. Deroir and JP are strangers - JP may never have heard of Deroir. I would say that judging by JP's initial response, it would appear her frame of mind was combative to start with; it was the perfect storm when you include the cultural, language factors and JP not knowing Deroir, had no context with regard to his intent - to her, he was just another 'dude' telling her how to do her job. Deroir's video he shot days before professing his admiration for JP tend to suggest that his intention was to engage with JP in a positive way and with that context, it is easier to see that his apology, albeit a bit clumsy, was likely sincere. I think his response to JPs attack, speaks to someone hurt by the sexism and 'you're not qualified to speak on this' accusations. To me it seems Deroir was embarrassed because it happened so publicly and just wanted to exit. Who wouldn't feel like that too? At that point, JP could have let him leave and drawn a line under it. Sadly, she just couldn't drop it. This whole thing looks like a huge misunderstanding that spiralled out of control. And as many have said, JP put ArenaNet in between a rock and a hard place. Other professionals have been fired over social media interactions, so JP & PF are not the first ones. With sexism being a hot button topic right now, I'm not surprised various media outlets are fueling the fire with one sided narratives. It sucks for everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said: > > If she had admitted she was wrong in her approach things likely would be different. To this day she deflects responsibility for her actions and has looked to place the blame instead, on her employer. > > I'll say it again after being sacked and the way it happened she's hardly going to feel very charitable towards anet. If you can't cant see the irony in your words, well.... all I can say is Karma has its way of exacting .. Karma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > > > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > > > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > > > > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > > > > > > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > > > > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > > > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > > > > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > > > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > > > > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > > > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > > > > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > > > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > > > > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > > > > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > > > > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > > > > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > > > > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > > > > > > > > > Um.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Snip) > > > > > > > > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. > > > > > > > > (Snip) > > > > > > > > This is the Oct 2015 blog post on Legendaries: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/ > > > > > > > > The relevant part I found was > > > > > > > > >The Birth of a Second Generation > > > > > > > > >Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns heralds the beginning of the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of twenty included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three we’ll release are a celestially themed axe called Astralaria, an experimental energy themed pistol called H.O.P.E., and a raven spirit themed staff called Nevermore. It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, **we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.** Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > > > > > > > > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. > > > > > > Thanks Fleshy.. question - was that set of three actually released with HoT.. I don't pay much relevance to Legendaries, I choose to slowly work on mine as I enjoy playing the game, visiting maps to obtain the necessary parts rather than buy them all.. call me old fashioned I guess but to me that's the achievement :) .. I digress - what I mean is I just never looked into what new ones were available, still don't except I finished Astralaria around 3 months ago :) > > > > My bad. Not at launch (as I recall) Just the first 3 released after launch. > > Yeah I just edited my reply as I misread yours.. so all good :) > Though to be honest, how this ties back to JP's unprofessional behaviour and her subsequent firing is.. minimal at best, but thanks for helping clear up a question raised through this somewhat minor relevance > yw. I read it as s/he was using the non release of Legendaries during the HoT expansion to show that MO words can’t be taken at face value and therefore what MO said about the firings also can’t be taken at face value. I doubt MO would lie. As Mark Twain said, 2 men can keep a secret as long as one of them is dead. Meaning that if MO had lied about the firings too many would know the truth and it would come out at some inconvenient and embarrassing time. Ignoring the ethics of it, telling the truth is the only sure way to keep it from blowing up in your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soa Cirri.6012 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: >BTW I didn't say I think KF wasn't fired Well now I'm confused. Do you think he was fired, or not? >Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. -MO I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than, "They were fired" without some major leeway given for wide interpretation. How would he say that? "They were acceptable, so they're no longer with the company?" > but when it has a business angle those actions have consequence.. There has been absolutely zero evidence offered, let alone provided, demonstrating what fiscal impact JP or PF had on ANET, and this crisis arose very soon after another major disappointment among players, which was the delay of the last season of Living World, making it even harder to judge, in hindsight, what the source of any recorded downturn will be. However, after the release bump from an expansion, sales always steadily drop off, or at most plateau; I severely doubt so much as an aberrant bump can be determined from this in either direction, even if the firing had not occurred: and while I will say it cannot be proven that their not being fired would have no financial effect, neither can you really assert, beyond pure speculative assumption, that they would. As many have pointed out, the forums and reddit are not widely representative of the majority of the player base, as most active players are busy playing the game. Unless there is actual data to back up any assertion as to the financial impact of any event, any claims as to the consequences of this, assuming they could even be isolated, are pure speculation, and not a basis of proof. > ANET do police there own game mechanics Yes, but not consistently. I brought that up purely for the sake of comparison to demonstrate how crisis levels of rage did not result in any dramatic same-day firings spurred on by players out for blood when it came to major problems within the game, but this case, which had nothing at all to do with the content of the game, _did_ spurr such an outcry. It was merely an observation about the bizarre disparity in reactions between both circumstances. > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: >>Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. Not right out of the box, but the "legendary journey" was heavily advertised as component to HoT. It was a month before the first _new_ collections came out, and several months before _any_ legendary collections could be reliably completed (although they were advertised as ready on release). ANET ultimately released a handful of weapons and then MO suspended the whole thing indefinitely, admitting the legendaries team would be working on PoF and giving no promise that they would necessarily ever return. To suggest that this sort haphazard release schedule even remotely conforms to the definition of "regular intervals,' I believe is a major semantic departure. https://techraptor.net/content/guild-wars-2-legendary-weapons-suspended-indefinitely ~~However, disappointingly, it appears that MO's original posts on the suspension are gone from the archives.~~ Just a flesh wound found them: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/601684/#Comment_601684 >Though to be honest, how this ties back to JP's unprofessional behaviour and her subsequent firing is.. minimal at best I fully explained the premise of the comparison in the original post. It was about the arbitrary nature of the outcry over this entire Twitter mess, and the apocalyptic language used as a specter of some dismal future where JP and PF are not fired. The point was that GW2 has weathered far, far worse crises which actually bore major relevance to the in-game world which every player faced with what was largely agreement, as opposed to the Twitter and Reddit worlds which a relative fraction face as deeply divided sides. > @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said: >as a mathematician The matter was a question of philosophy, not maths. Ephemiel was presenting what was clearly intended as an absurd idea (that someone could justifiably argue 2+2=7 and then insult someone's gender for disagreeing) to suggest that by reducing ethical beliefs to such an absurdity he or she could prove that personal ethics can be objectively judged as they pertain to the larger issue of whether or not her behavior merited firing. In this comparison, ethics and maths are equally abstractions. In fact, I don't see how it can be reasonably argued that maths are _not_ abstract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitus.3297 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 All I am glad about is that ANet stood up for the fans. Even if you could argue that JP had a bone to pick, Deroir was not the one to take out her frustrations on for something as simple as a slight disagreement in regards to how to make the game better. That is the exact opposite of being productive. If even someone as well-meaning as Deroir can't even constructively-criticize the game without getting lambasted with accusations of being a sexist, how can any other fan not expect to receive similar treatment if they attempt to do the same? It simply discourages the opportunity for discussion, which is not good for ANet or their player base assuming both parties want the best for the game. The fact is that there was an opportunity for Deroir and JP to have a very constructive discussion on how to make the game better, and she threw it away because she felt like she was being attacked, despite that this was clearly not the intent. I'm really not interested in the political aspects of this situation. I get enough of this kind of thing at my day job. I'm not terribly thrilled that anyone had to lose their job, but I understand why ultimately needed to happen. Regardless, All I care about is the fact that ANet took action that showed they actually give a care about their fans and playerbase, which is very refreshing to see. I truly do appreciate and thank them for it. I don't think my opinion matters that much, but I really hope they see this and understand how thankful I am to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Yesterday was the first time I saw this controversy in map chat. Me and a friend were after an achievement - to get it, we needed two legendary bounties. People were not interested in only doing the legs so to get what we wanted done, I agreed, though I lacked the experience, to run a bounty train. The third bounty I chose, popped in the middle of an event that spawns 3 champions. It was a wipe. I was called, in EU map chat, a 'rando a-hat' by one of the players. I apologised for the wipe in map chat, and explained it was my first time I was running a bounty train. Several made supportive comments that it was okay and to relax. The rest of the run went well after that. So for me, the 'toxic' players, are far outnumbered by the nice players. It is a shame that the controversy JP started has bled into the game a little, but I guess that was inevitable. I think ANet did the best they could in a very difficult situation. There was always going to be damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > >>Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids. > > So 3 at launch after launch of HoT and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are. At this point releasing one with each new LS section would meet the terms of a regular interval. Of course they did pause for a period of time to rework how they were crafted but that was publicly announced by MO and discussed on the forum and the new Legendaries were restarted after they finished the rework. > > Not right out of the box, but the "legendary journey" was heavily advertised as component to HoT. It was a month before the first _new_ collections came out, and several months before _any_ legendary collections could be reliably completed (although they were advertised as ready on release). ANET ultimately released a handful of weapons and then MO suspended the whole thing indefinitely, admitting the legendaries team would be working on PoF and giving no promise that they would necessarily ever return. To suggest that this sort haphazard release schedule even remotely conforms to the definition of "regular intervals,' I believe is a major semantic departure. > > https://techraptor.net/content/guild-wars-2-legendary-weapons-suspended-indefinitely > > However, disappointingly, it appears that MO's original posts on the suspension are gone from the archives. > The most important point is that you were attempting to show that MO’s word can’t be taken at face value because 2nd tier Legendaries didn’t all come out during HoT. However just because someone attempts something and fails and has to pause and revamp because the work was too much for the number of people they have doesn’t show a pattern or intent to deceive. It may shows poor communication from the staff to him about the complexity of the job or it may show a response to unexpected problems but the fact that the new Legendaries are now on a regular interval release shows that after the problems were fixed he kept his word on the release of the new Legendaries. By the way, here’s two of his posts on the suspension of Legendaries. (Others were responding to players). You have to search archives to find the old forum. >Mike O Brien >Hi all, >In the upcoming Spring 2016 Quarterly Update, we’ll launch the new legendary short bow, Chuka and Champawat. The team outdid themselves on this one. This new precursor journey takes you through a memorable experience inspired by a real-world story, and the bow you craft at the end is the perfect commemoration of that journey. I hope you all check it out. >Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come. >As game director I have to make tough trade-offs. One thing I believe is that we have to focus on the core game first before taking on additional responsibilities. I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010 that our vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front. >So, after shipping Chuka and Champawat, I’ve asked that we indefinitely suspend work on new legendary weapons. This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in. >I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email. >Mo 2nd major post >Thanks for all the comments. I know there’s nothing I’m going to say that will make you feel better, but I’ll share some final thoughts for the night. >I said three weeks ago I’d focus on sustainability and quality. I want to reiterate the part about sustainability. Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but how about the recent drought of content? That kind of thing happens when we spread ourselves too thin, and when we let the content development pipeline empty out so we can fight fires. What I think we actually owe you is sustainable, predictable, high-quality content. I’m making a decision that’s painful in the short-term so we can position ourselves to deliver that. >Akuni.8604: >Consider this… HoT currently has: 3 new maps (which are still buggy looking at DS) which are grindy as hell, Elite Specs which are heavy powercreep (pay to win in PvP…), a Story which is short but at least good (if you ignore the myriad of bugs f.e. in the Mordi battle), Guild halls, 2 Raids with 5 1/2 bosses, a new PvP map (which is quite unbalanced) and now only 4 legy weaps (3/4 being rarely used thanks to being underpowered or buggy)… That’s it? >Mike O Brien. >I previously addressed the “half an expansion” thing, and I can point you to pages like this one and this one (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns), but that doesn’t matter because it’s just arguing. My job is to entertain you, not to argue with you. >I strongly believe that we will in fact entertain you. We’re a team of people who love the game that you love, and are working on things we’re confident you’ll love. But I’m not here to convince you of that, and I wouldn’t expect you to take my word for it. You can make that judgment in April, and each subsequent time we ship. I will work to make you happy, and I’ll do it by making you happy with what we ship, not with what we promise to ship. >Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soa Cirri.6012 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > The most important point is that you were attempting to show that MO’s word can’t be taken at face value because 2nd tier Legendaries didn’t all come out during HoT. ...That isn't even close to what I was attempting to show. That's a construction entirely of your own making, a "reading" by your own admission which I never actually expressed. This particular strain began with this back and forth: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/601031/#Comment_601031 Here's a breakdown: >**Bloodstealer:** >_JP and PF had to be fired, there is no alternative, because the alternative would threaten the health of the game._ >**me:** >_GW2 survived the enormous spate of problems surrounding HoT, problems which all deeply affected core game content, and to argue that this Twitter/Reddit crisis even compares to the potential (and realized) consequences of those previous, far more serious crises, seems arbitrary at best._ That was my point. Bloodstealer then obfuscated the entire thing by fixating on the legendaries (which was simply _one_ of _several_ examples of events that caused player outrage over a period of half a year), and that's where you came in. Anyway. Thank you for finding the posts, I clearly came up short when looking for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > The most important point is that you were attempting to show that MO’s word can’t be taken at face value because 2nd tier Legendaries didn’t all come out during HoT. > ...That isn't even close to what I was attempting to show. That's a construction entirely of your own making, a "reading" by your own admission which I never actually expressed. This particular strain began with this back and forth: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/601031/#Comment_601031 > > Here's a breakdown: > > >**Bloodstealer:** > >_JP and PF had to be fired, there is no alternative, because the alternative would threaten the health of the game._ > >**me:** > >_GW2 survived the enormous spate of problems surrounding HoT, problems which all deeply affected core game content, and to argue that this Twitter/Reddit crisis even compares to the potential (and realized) consequences of those previous, far more serious crises, seems arbitrary at best._ > > That was my point. > > Bloodstealer then obfuscated the entire thing by fixating on the legendaries (which was simply _one_ of _several_ examples of events that caused player outrage over a period of half a year), and that's where you came in. > > Anyway. Thank you for finding the posts, I clearly came up short when looking for them. Very well. I assumed your post stating problems was a direct reply to the statement above it “unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value” with a list of why his word can’t be taken at face value, not simply a list of problems/crisis. Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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