Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. > > > > So when both those devs and the "anonymous sources" speak of tension and fear, in light of PF's treatment it seems rather believable. No one claimed the quotes were defending JP at all, only response to the fallout of the whole event. > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > It was not just about the damage to their player base, the community, its about the possible ripple effect that keeping such a person employed could of had... loss of revenue, loss of trust, possible further issues internally with other members of staff, the possibility that all this and JP's obvious lack of self control and professionalism which has been exposed could then bleed into her work as well... imagine every time some new patch was released and the reaction it could now promote from the playerbase.. and not just with their voices and fingertips, the customer speaks loudest through their wallet. > > As has been said earlier in the thread, anyone who makes their purchasing decisions based on the tweets of writing staff should "seriously reconsider." > > > Sorry this is a situation of her own making, there simply was no other choice imo.. she placed both herself and the company into disrepute and who knows if there was already tensions internally surrounding this person. > > No other choice? Many other alternatives have been proposed. > > > Was KF fired or did he walk? > > PF was fired. MO said as much... unless the suggestion is that MO's word can't be taken at face value. > > > If I recall we were given something by ANET in regards to the HoT pre order issues and if my memory serves HoT received a fair few patches to incorporated community feedback. > > The promised content was not delivered on release, balance passes were not implemented when promised, and the full implementation of new legendaries, also promised, is now years away from that release date. There are items which have been paid for which we never got, and promises which were never kept. > > > Players cheating in an MMO.. is this a new thing? > > People getting angry on twitter... is this a new thing? > > >If I again recall, ANET jumped onto the issue and banned those players as well as other actions. > > Many of the people who blatantly exploited the league mechanics, cheating repeatedly (and getting caught and reported repeatedly) went on to feature in professional tournaments and continue to be "proleague" gamers. We're still waiting for those bans... > > >to hold ANET accountable for people that cheat the system is kind of silly... > > ...So it's reasonable to hold ANET accountable for what employees say on a _completely unrelated social media platform_, but it's _unreasonable_ for them to police the mechanics of their _own video game which they have full control over_? > > > > Um.... > > Nice cherry picking there. > > An employee who chose to represent the company out of hours on a public platform and then set about discussing work related content. makes it company business no matter the platform used and last time I logged into Twitter it was not a private platform unless I choose to make it Anon. Twitter is public platform and in choosing to continue on from stellar God like AMA input, whilst advertising herself as an ANET employee she made a judgement call to offer out her thoughts about the role and specifically content namely PC pro tips back to her work at ANET.. no one forced it upon her to do so, she made that call by herself.. unless of course you are also saying that MO's words are not to be taken at face value. > What ensued was JP bringing the company into disrepute and KF made a bad call to get himself involved with it, especially when it was already going off the rails over nothing but one persons desire for controversy. > Of course people getting angry is not a new thing on Twitter, but when it has a business angle those actions have consequence.. or are you saying JP is the first person to get fired over a twitter meltdown which saw her aggressively attack a customer, a content partner and then set about twisting the narrative to one of sexism, which turned the whole thing into something much, much uglier. > BTW I didn't say I think KF wasn't fired, in fact most of the way through this thread I actually have thought the very same thing, hence why on several occasions I have said I was very confused as to why... but another poster made an interesting point of challenge to this fact and when I went back and reread MO' statements I could see how there may be some merit in questioning whether he was fired or not.. MO does not actually state he was, he does clearly state that 2 employees failed to uphold the standards and expectation ANET have when engaging with customers and they are no longer with the company... suggest he had been fired yes but it does not state it. > As for choices in the decisions to fire JP.. no imo there was none.. aside from the fallout with the community she had already created there was just as bigger chance keeping her would have an equally damaging effect on the business and as I have repeatedly said.. you or I have no idea if there were any other factors already exposed internally that were factored in.. MO would not of just woke up that morning and said to himself, she's fired. This is not some reality game show, this is a multi million dollar operation with a full set of procedures and process set in place and I for one trust them to of put due diligence into the arriving at the decisions they did rather than setting about and acting in the same unprofessional way JP did. > > ANET were policing the issue with JP.. in fact MO clearly stated they were aware all day of what was going down and conveniently on a national holiday where I would guess the cause and effect could be greater. ANET don't control Twitter, JP controls her Twitter usage and her conduct when using it. ANET do police there own game mechanics, not as well as I would like I grant you that.. but if the recent ban wave is anything to go by and the fact they publicly announced the banning of those PvP cheats, suggests they do take action, maybe not as strongly as some of us like and of course cheats will always find a way to circumnavigate mechanics even after being banned on one account. > > Of course a potential customer doing some research on the game and coming across this mess, reading up on comments like.." I don't pretend to have to like you here", berating the community in general and such will have effects on decisions to buy . That is the whole reason for protecting the company's image, why there are communication policies, company goals and an expectation that employees will uphold those standards and values when choosing to engage with customers and potential customers.. that is Business 101. > > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box, but then again that wasn't the key reason for me deciding to purchase it anyway. However I do recall a statement was made on the issue of the Legendary weapons set, but I don't recall it ever saying all legendaries will be included with HoT… I could very well be wrong and you could be right, so maybe others could shed light on this one for more certainty. > > I will be honest and say I can't recall any balance/patch release issues that were noticeably out of schedule, but then again I don't plan life around ANET release dates so if they run over by a day, a week, a month, 3 months it doesn't really bother me and I would hazard a guess I am not alone there. Unfortunately MMO's are a fickle thing and delivering content patches, balance passes, new builds will always meet with issue. ANET are no different to any other when it comes to this. However I will say to date I can only recall one major issue which resulted in a roll back, downtime has been minimal and schedules don't go to far off their expected cadence. I will say however that the cadence to me might be having an effect on the quality of some patches and their ability to react quickly to fix some issues the community becomes vocal about, but its a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation imo… I too have been vocal at times in regards to ANETS patching QA. I would not be upset personally if ANET decided to extend the schedule to give themselves more time.. but that's me, cos I still remember the days when 12- 18 months was not unheard of for new content/balance passes to be released in MMO's I have played. EDIT - BTW I purchased a new car recently, it was around 4 weeks late on delivery due to manufacturing delays.... now, should I then go onto Twitter, write up a compelling story of opinion backed by my own company name regarding an industry I think I know pretty darn well after many years working within it, which also sees this manufacture be a long standing client of mine, but then twist the narrative to personally attack someone who is also an owner of one of the manufactured products and an avid paying Owners Club Member who dared to slightly disagree with one of my opinions. Do I then go full loon just because the critique came from someone of the opposite sex who had little to no experience to qualify such critique of me, a seasoned veteran of the industry. Should I take it to an even more pathetic level by then blaming the whole car manufacturer because it was due to my twisted perception that somehow sexism within the workplace was the factor behind the car being delayed due to a manufacturing issue caused when a member of the opposite sex inadvertently assembled a component incorrectly and caused the product to fail at QA inspection, which directly delayed my car not meeting schedule... Sounds pretty cruddy doesn't it, unbelievably obnoxious and absolutely unwarranted you might well think... and you would be sooo right. Now of course there is one difference, I cant fire myself but it does not change the fact I chose to go on a publicly available social media platform, discuss openly about the issues within the industry based on my experience and my company involvement.. I then decided to go total whackjob and twist narrative in the face of a an innocent human being for daring to have an opinion that was put to me without malice or intent and absolutely no gender angle anywhere. That person simply wished to share and discuss views, question opinion and maybe even help me address the situation or at least try to help understand the issue a bit clearer to him. Had the bad experience of not getting my car on time make me feel somewhat annoyed - Absolutely Did I ask for that person to offer their feedback to my post - not directly, but I am not so dumb as to think social media would not expose me to others with opinions and amateur rationale when considering my overly large ego. I also knew there was this big REPLY button just waiting to be pressed by someone or I could of just circulated to a few trusted friends and followers.. but surely such a compelling story related to my job and my long serving professional experience within the industry was meant for a wider audience … perhaps. Does the fact someone dared have any level of differing opinion give reason to go on a personal attack full of nothing but blatant unprofessional, undignified egotalk and harassment - NO Does the fact that the critique is now found to of come from one of the opposite sex, reason to twist the narrative to somehow make it about sexism, make accusation that the person was being sexist towards me just because of some arbitrary made up terminology that someone, somewhere thought sounded great and was all the proof they need to cry sexism. - NO IT DID NOT Does it now give me licence to accuse anyone - man, woman, industry insider or amateur debater, client or consumer a rando as*hat and a sexist - ABSOLUTELY NOT Would it be in my best interest to continue to steer a narrative that was unfounded, unwarranted and then make out that the industry and my client were the issue because of some twisted ideology I somehow think this minor critique of my post offended - GET REAL I cant fire myself, but my client can quite easily turnaround and say take your services elsewhere and they would absolutely be justified, And if it hadn't been me writing the post and directing the ensuing bullcrap, but in fact one of my employees, then they too would be an ex employee in the morning for grossly misrepresenting my business in the face of a client (one of my biggest clients that my business and those I employ kind of need, to you know, have a business) and harassing someone with intent to cause an extreme effect in the name of a cause they were actually the cause of in the first place. Coffee is now doing the job, WALL O TEX now complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Chocolate.5870 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said: > >as a mathematician > The matter was a question of philosophy, not maths. > > Ephemiel was presenting what was clearly intended as an absurd idea (that someone could justifiably argue 2+2=7 and then insult someone's gender for disagreeing) to suggest that by reducing ethical beliefs to such an absurdity he or she could prove that personal ethics can be objectively judged as they pertain to the larger issue of whether or not her behavior merited firing. I know that, and that's not reductio ad absurdum. All I was doing there was pointing out that you had used that phrase incorrectly, nothing more. > In this comparison, ethics and maths are equally abstractions. In fact, I don't see how it can be reasonably argued that maths are _not_ abstract. I'm not arguing that maths is not abstract. You seemed to be trying to argue (though maybe I misinterpreted) that it's impossible to prove whether an ethical belief is right or wrong because ethics is abstract. The point I was trying to make was that maths is abstract but it is possible to prove whether (some) mathematical statements are true or false, so it can't be the abstractness of ethics that prevents one from proving things about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Gendou.9620" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > They could have not fired her and still been seen to be doing something about her. And this goes especially to Peter. > > > > > > Except your argument is flawed, do you know how many people asked for her to be fired, and the thanks they received? This wouldn't be a parade of arguments without both sides, you have a majority wanting her fired, saying she deserved it, and a few people who think she is a good person(even though she attacks people for no reason). Not firing her would have sent a mass of people complaining about how unacceptable that was, how ANET tolerates behavior like hers, then you would have the same wave of people saying "I quit this game, anet has lost my respect" blah blah sort of posts. So mob rules? Do you not see how flawed that is? Plus its only a small minority of players anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orimidu.9604 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I haven't been following this thread, but I wanted to pop in and thank Samantha Wallschlaeger and all of the ANet team she listed and spoke highly about. I recently discovered a thread on the reddit page highlighting her series of tweets and I'm absolutely thrilled that one of my favorite games of all time has such a diverse, outspoken, transparent, and skillful staff behind the wheels. Shame on those "gaming journalism" websites that get it so wrong time after time. All it takes to see the truth is to play the game and follow the staff! You guys really practice what you preach and the world needs a lot more of that these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > I haven't been following this thread, but I wanted to pop in and thank Samantha Wallschlaeger and all of the ANet team she listed and spoke highly about. I recently discovered a thread on the reddit page highlighting her series of tweets and I'm absolutely thrilled that one of my favorite games of all time has such a diverse, outspoken, transparent, and skillful staff behind the wheels. Shame on those "gaming journalism" websites that get it so wrong time after time. All it takes to see the truth is to play the game and follow the staff! You guys really practice what you preach and the world needs a lot more of that these days. The series of [tweets]( "tweets"). Thank you for sharing. It was great reading such positivity. Kinda shows how the media outlets are cherry picking the bad stuff and ignorning the good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Soa Cirri.6012" said: > > @"Edge.4180" said: > > Except they seem (one of the two in particular) to be specifically talking about the firing of Peter Fries, and not Jessica Price. I don't think many would argue that, of the two, Fries is the more surprising and unfortunate firing. Even Deroir expressed unhappiness with his termination. > Well, they talk about MO being eager and willing to throw people under the bus, with PF being especially slighted, given his history with the company and behavior in all other circumstances. > > The point that "PF had to be fired or it would look bad," is exactly what it means to throw someone under the bus, and the fact that such a rationale seems likely sort of weakens the idea that MO or ANET are really repudiating JP's stance at all; instead of taking a stand behind their senior writer and taking into account his entire history of work and proving they're not afraid of JP's brand of McFeminism, they fired him. I feel bad for Fries primarily because: 1) He had been at the company a long time (much longer than Price). 2) His behavior and comments were not nearly as bad as Price's. 3) Unlike Price, he's handled his departure gracefully. That said, Fries's biggest advantage in this debacle is not that he handled an interaction with a fan well (because he absolutely did not), but that Price's poor behavior was so very much worse that it easily overshadowed Fries's poor behavior. I don't think you can expect to avoid punishment by screwing up less badly than your associate. You've still screwed up, regardless. Fries was not innocent in all of this. He could have addressed the audience respectfully instead of adding fuel to the fire. He could have privately asked Price to stop attacking their fans. He could have simply remained out of the mess entirely. He instead chose to publicly throw his support behind Price's unacceptable behavior by tossing in softer insults alongside hers. There will never be an agreement that both Price and Fries should have been fired; everyone imagines handling the punishment for these events differently. I think it's reasonable to suggest Price's punishment should have been worse than Fries as her behavior was worse. And if someone's looking at this from the perspective that Price's behavior was bad enough (in Mo's judgement) to warrant firing, and by that logic Fries's punishment should have thereby been something less severe.. well that's understandable. But it's also possible that Fries's behavior was actually bad enough (in Mo's judgement) to warrant firing, and Price simply received the same punishment as Fries because she couldn't be fired six times over instead. There was an obvious cap to how harsh the punishment could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main industry outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. edited: omitted keyword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orimidu.9604 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. I should add the "rough times" is speaking about the days ahead for studios. Gamers will simply move on. There is always another game to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orimidu.9604 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > > > While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. > > I should add the "rough times" is speaking about the days ahead for studios. Gamers will simply move on. There is always another game to try. Oh I figured you were speaking about the studios. Taking your comment to be directed towards gamers would be rather egocentric. Perhaps it's too optimistic, but I believe there are far more ethics-centered and good-natured people in the world than those who manufacture outrage or sincerely feel outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > > > > > While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. > > > > I should add the "rough times" is speaking about the days ahead for studios. Gamers will simply move on. There is always another game to try. > > Oh I figured you were speaking about the studios. Taking your comment to be directed towards gamers would be rather egocentric. Perhaps it's too optimistic, but I believe there are far more ethics-centered and good-natured people in the world than those who manufacture outrage or sincerely feel outrage. I feel bad for the devs anywhere. My best friends son wants to persue game creation and is currently doing so. It prompted me to really read about the life and times of devs and studios. Lack of job security is nothing new. Mass hirings to bring a project in line with launch dates, only to release the majority of them at launch. Seems 2 years is the average life expectency of a position. PF was fortunate in his longevity with Anet, but he was a remnant of the old guard. Hopefully better days come from all the light being shone on the gaming industry, especially with the advent of the GDPR. It's far from perfect but it's a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > There's something I haven't seen much said on here, when writing something on the internet, you have to expect different readers to interpret it in different ways depending on how you write it. > > Which means absolutely nothing in this case. Even if she found Deroir's comment offensive, he apologized after making that tweet: > > You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it. > And still got harassed anyway. Right, and I'll say it again, what is said in writing can be interpreted differently by different people...so then his apology can be interpreted to be condescending, which would only exacerbate the situation...are you following me along now. It's still all about interpretation, this is keeping in mind that Deroir is not a native English speaker, so context is not going be something he might be aware of. I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > There's something I haven't seen much said on here, when writing something on the internet, you have to expect different readers to interpret it in different ways depending on how you write it. > > > > Which means absolutely nothing in this case. Even if she found Deroir's comment offensive, he apologized after making that tweet: > > > You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it. > > And still got harassed anyway. > > Right, and I'll say it again, what is said in writing can be interpreted differently by different people...so then his apology can be interpreted to be condescending, which would only exacerbate the situation...are you following me along now. It's still all about interpretation, this is keeping in mind that Deroir is not a native English speaker, so context is not going be something he might be aware of. > > I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question. Text conversations are the easiest to misunderstand. There is no tone of voice, or inflections to demonstrate emotional intent. It kinda interesting how Deroir moved on from it, but others felt compelled to defend him and seek revenge of a sort, as did PF for JP. Triggers.. all trigers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. Termination, however, seems excessive, especially given that ArenaNet's online etiquette policy/social media policy was severely out of date. This reflects poorly on the management of ANET; this is 2018, and their policy was from 2011. That is a sad, sad state of affairs for a company that is regularly involved in online interactions with the community base. This also speaks to the player base as a whole; those employees have lost their livelihood, as a result of comments made toward people on a social media platform. There were real-world consequences of their actions, but when players come on the forums to badmouth the developers, they don't even get banned in the game, only from the forums (and that doesn't even always happen). That's very two-faced of our community to be pleased that these employees were terminated from their earning potential, and now have to deal with the fallout that comes with that (ie, unemployment ineligibility, lack of income, managing their family expenses and households, getting a new career in an industry that may see them as risks, etc). Lastly, Mike O'Brien should NOT have posted publicly about the actions. HR decisions by a company are internal, and it was NO ONE'S business about the employment status. If he truly wanted to respond, he should have simply posted "Appropriate actions have been taken, and further discussion would be inappropriate." You (read: the player base), are not privy to ANET's internal hiring and firing, and you should have zero expectation to be. Personally, those employees should seek legal counsel about their options against ANET for public defamation and revealing of private human resources information in a 100% public space. That point is the single most unacceptable part of how Mike O'Brien has acted in this: he has ZERO right to post that PRIVATE information to a player base which has ZERO RIGHT to know about that, and the idea that you (read: player base), had the expectation of your right to that information is shameful. As to their actions: Yes, their response was definitely inappropriate. Both sides are to blame in this, and this was just poor form on both party's behalfs, but most of all, the distasteful behavior and absurd expectations of the Guild Wars 2 player base are appalling. ANET's internal issues are none of your business. You have absolutely no right to the information given, and Mike O'Brien had zero right to post it to appease you (the player base). Check yourselves the next time you think that you are privileged to private information that has zero consequence on your life. Absolutely repulsive and toxic behavior and mindsets, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. ~snip~ No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orimidu.9604 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > > > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > > > > > > > While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. > > > > > > I should add the "rough times" is speaking about the days ahead for studios. Gamers will simply move on. There is always another game to try. > > > > Oh I figured you were speaking about the studios. Taking your comment to be directed towards gamers would be rather egocentric. Perhaps it's too optimistic, but I believe there are far more ethics-centered and good-natured people in the world than those who manufacture outrage or sincerely feel outrage. > > I feel bad for the devs anywhere. My best friends son wants to persue game creation and is currently doing so. It prompted me to really read about the life and times of devs and studios. Lack of job security is nothing new. Mass hirings to bring a project in line with launch dates, only to release the majority of them at launch. Seems 2 years is the average life expectency of a position. PF was fortunate in his longevity with Anet, but he was a remnant of the old guard. Hopefully better days come from all the light being shone on the gaming industry, especially with the advent of the GDPR. It's far from perfect but it's a start. I think one of the worst things a developer can do is confine themselves to a single region. Most studios I know of are based on the west coast when it comes to the US, which is a huge de-motivator for talented and aspiring people on the opposite end. I feel a larger applicant pool would stem from developers creating satellite HQs in other regions or, in the case of ANet and their customer service ticket backlog, making room in the budget for remote work. Unfortunately, the industry structure appears to be built like contracted actors in Hollywood, while game development is an industry that shouldn't be interpreted that way. It's because of this structure that the industry is lacking in talent lately. Nobody is going to be motivated to move to the opposite end of the country for a two-year gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. > > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). > > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. > > ~snip~ > > No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts). > You represent your company if you publicly acknowledge them and the work that is done for them. It's really simple... They can make an official company social media account with their company's blessing. ANET probably didn't have this policy cited in their archaic policy, but nonetheless... what you say has an impact on the relationship you have with your company. The idea of anything less is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. > > Termination, however, seems excessive, especially given that ArenaNet's online etiquette policy/social media policy was severely out of date. This reflects poorly on the management of ANET; this is 2018, and their policy was from 2011. That is a sad, sad state of affairs for a company that is regularly involved in online interactions with the community base. > > This also speaks to the player base as a whole; those employees have lost their livelihood, as a result of comments made toward people on a social media platform. There were real-world consequences of their actions, but when players come on the forums to badmouth the developers, they don't even get banned in the game, only from the forums (and that doesn't even always happen). That's very two-faced of our community to be pleased that these employees were terminated from their earning potential, and now have to deal with the fallout that comes with that (ie, unemployment ineligibility, lack of income, managing their family expenses and households, getting a new career in an industry that may see them as risks, etc). > > Lastly, Mike O'Brien should NOT have posted publicly about the actions. HR decisions by a company are internal, and it was NO ONE'S business about the employment status. If he truly wanted to respond, he should have simply posted "Appropriate actions have been taken, and further discussion would be inappropriate." > > You (read: the player base), are not privy to ANET's internal hiring and firing, and you should have zero expectation to be. Personally, those employees should seek legal counsel about their options against ANET for public defamation and revealing of private human resources information in a 100% public space. That point is the single most unacceptable part of how Mike O'Brien has acted in this: he has ZERO right to post that PRIVATE information to a player base which has ZERO RIGHT to know about that, and the idea that you (read: player base), had the expectation of your right to that information is shameful. > > As to their actions: Yes, their response was definitely inappropriate. > > Both sides are to blame in this, and this was just poor form on both party's behalfs, but most of all, the distasteful behavior and absurd expectations of the Guild Wars 2 player base are appalling. ANET's internal issues are none of your business. You have absolutely no right to the information given, and Mike O'Brien had zero right to post it to appease you (the player base). Check yourselves the next time you think that you are privileged to private information that has zero consequence on your life. Absolutely repulsive and toxic behavior and mindsets, in my opinion. > One thing, MO never stated any names or what actions were taken, all he had stated is that two individuals no longer work for Arena Net, the only person that is blasting any information about this whole debacle is to the public domain is JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > Right, and I'll say it again, what is said in writing can be interpreted differently by different people...so then his apology can be interpreted to be condescending, which would only exacerbate the situation...are you following me along now. It's still all about interpretation, this is keeping in mind that Deroir is not a native English speaker, so context is not going be something he might be aware of. If she doesn't grasp the proper meaning of the English language she should've asked for help instead of interpreting it all in that way. But I doubt she misinterpret Deroir's tweet, she did all that on purpose. Keep in mind that we are talking about Jessica Price here, not someone else, a very outspoken person on various issues. She has a rather clear political agenda if you take some time to read her tweets. Plus the post that blew this up was made 1 HOUR after Deroir left the conversation. Why couldn't see let it go as well? No, it was all premeditated, if anything she wanted to see how Arenanet would react. We are talking about a person that doesn't even understand the meaning of the word sexism, or feigns ignorance, because she should be a university graduate with at least higher education so such concepts shouldn't be so alien to her. > I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question. This has been happening since at least 2009, you are a bit too late to try to stop it now, 9 years later. Or rather I have info of at least someone getting fired due to social media as old as 2009, I'm sure there have been more incidents before that, although social media haven't been so important, or wide spread, before that, I think. What you can do though is not to bring your political agenda on social media, especially when you clearly tag yourself as a member of a company, and your comments reflect badly on the company. It's about time people took responsibility for their actions. People on social media make their lives public, they are more akin to sports players than employees of companies, and I don't know if you've heard, but around the world sports players are being banned from their teams for things that they post on social media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. > > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). > > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. > > > > Termination, however, seems excessive, especially given that ArenaNet's online etiquette policy/social media policy was severely out of date. This reflects poorly on the management of ANET; this is 2018, and their policy was from 2011. That is a sad, sad state of affairs for a company that is regularly involved in online interactions with the community base. > > > > This also speaks to the player base as a whole; those employees have lost their livelihood, as a result of comments made toward people on a social media platform. There were real-world consequences of their actions, but when players come on the forums to badmouth the developers, they don't even get banned in the game, only from the forums (and that doesn't even always happen). That's very two-faced of our community to be pleased that these employees were terminated from their earning potential, and now have to deal with the fallout that comes with that (ie, unemployment ineligibility, lack of income, managing their family expenses and households, getting a new career in an industry that may see them as risks, etc). > > > > Lastly, Mike O'Brien should NOT have posted publicly about the actions. HR decisions by a company are internal, and it was NO ONE'S business about the employment status. If he truly wanted to respond, he should have simply posted "Appropriate actions have been taken, and further discussion would be inappropriate." > > > > You (read: the player base), are not privy to ANET's internal hiring and firing, and you should have zero expectation to be. Personally, those employees should seek legal counsel about their options against ANET for public defamation and revealing of private human resources information in a 100% public space. That point is the single most unacceptable part of how Mike O'Brien has acted in this: he has ZERO right to post that PRIVATE information to a player base which has ZERO RIGHT to know about that, and the idea that you (read: player base), had the expectation of your right to that information is shameful. > > > > As to their actions: Yes, their response was definitely inappropriate. > > > > Both sides are to blame in this, and this was just poor form on both party's behalfs, but most of all, the distasteful behavior and absurd expectations of the Guild Wars 2 player base are appalling. ANET's internal issues are none of your business. You have absolutely no right to the information given, and Mike O'Brien had zero right to post it to appease you (the player base). Check yourselves the next time you think that you are privileged to private information that has zero consequence on your life. Absolutely repulsive and toxic behavior and mindsets, in my opinion. > > > > One thing, MO never stated any names or what actions were taken, all he had stated is that two individuals no longer work for Arena Net, the only person that is blasting any information about this whole debacle is to the public domain is JP. It's still an internal, HR issue. The community had zero right to know. And it's obvious what he was referencing. I guess Mr. O'Brien has posted in the past when ANET employees have been terminated for being tardy to work too many times, or when they've been terminated for bad work ethic, or when they've been terminated for creating a negative work enviornment, or when they've been terminated for... You get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > > > @"Orimidu.9604" said: > > > > > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > > > > > > Triggers, that is what this entire debacle is the result of. Jessica was triggered by Deroirs comment. Peter was triggered by it as well. And in return so was Mike O'Brien. Each behaved in an automatic fashion. It's called the reactive mind. Have you ever snapped at someone, and later wondered why? All the signs are there. Extreme pressure is the norm it seems for gaming studios. EA has had thiers, I have witnessed some as they unfolded (online) . The BF2 outrage over lootboxes. That resulted in reddit blowing up and a phone call from Disney to EA, resulting in loot boxes being removed and only offering cosmetic items now. Another EA studio had a dev getting heated on their forums, reddit caught wind of it and again went off, the same night the excutive producer of the game posted an appology, and promised better communication going forward. These all speak to pressure and reacting to it. It will only get worse. The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > > > > > > > > > While this whole debacle is something one could write a master's thesis about, I sincerely doubt the future will be as doom-and-gloom as you think. But I digress, it's not my intention to become a part of the endless debating in this thread. I only wished to share some positive comments. > > > > > > > > I should add the "rough times" is speaking about the days ahead for studios. Gamers will simply move on. There is always another game to try. > > > > > > Oh I figured you were speaking about the studios. Taking your comment to be directed towards gamers would be rather egocentric. Perhaps it's too optimistic, but I believe there are far more ethics-centered and good-natured people in the world than those who manufacture outrage or sincerely feel outrage. > > > > I feel bad for the devs anywhere. My best friends son wants to persue game creation and is currently doing so. It prompted me to really read about the life and times of devs and studios. Lack of job security is nothing new. Mass hirings to bring a project in line with launch dates, only to release the majority of them at launch. Seems 2 years is the average life expectency of a position. PF was fortunate in his longevity with Anet, but he was a remnant of the old guard. Hopefully better days come from all the light being shone on the gaming industry, especially with the advent of the GDPR. It's far from perfect but it's a start. > > I think one of the worst things a developer can do is confine themselves to a single region. Most studios I know of are based on the west coast when it comes to the US, which is a huge de-motivator for talented and aspiring people on the opposite end. I feel a larger applicant pool would stem from developers creating satellite HQs in other regions or, in the case of ANet and their customer service ticket backlog, making room in the budget for remote work. Unfortunately, the industry structure appears to be built like contracted actors in Hollywood, while game development is an industry that shouldn't be interpreted that way. It's because of this structure that the industry is lacking in talent lately. Nobody is going to be motivated to move to the opposite end of the country for a two-year gig. Yep. My friends son is East Coast. Relocation is a way of life it seems for game devs. Which makes it rough for those with families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: >The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. I disagree, as from my perspective the main outrage seems to stem over: 1. Price's inability to accept responsibility, along with her insane insistence that this was all about gender (the hypocrisy being that she is actually playing the role of the sexist in this debacle by lashing out at Deroir and other fans because they happen to be male). 2. Price continuing to add fuel the fire with dishonest interviews and follow-up tweets in an attempt to cause damage to ArenaNet and (by extension) Guild Wars 2, its fans, and the people employed at ArenaNet. 3. Certain gaming media organizations trying very hard to dishonestly spin Price as the victim and ArenaNet and Deroir as the villains. This is really the most annoying and disappointing aspect of all of this, to me. > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question. I don't understand how you can't see the obvious flaws in this thinking. If you, for example, work for a company and then (from your social media account where you choose to actively advertise your employment at said company) decide you're going to speak ill of that company and/or its customers.. I just don't understand how you expect there to be no repercussions to those actions.. particularly in the land of at-will employment. And I'm not talking about whistleblowing, I'm just referring to examples of smack-talk and generally just being an awful jerk. Yes, you can go onto your social media account and post _"LOL at the idiotic people who are stupid enough to waste money eating at the restaurant I work at, home of the worst tasting, most overpriced food in history"_, but you are kidding yourself if you think your manager isn't going to want to have words with you on your next shift. Your expectation of some sort of magical separation and protections between the various worlds in your life is just bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > Right, and I'll say it again, what is said in writing can be interpreted differently by different people...so then his apology can be interpreted to be condescending, which would only exacerbate the situation...are you following me along now. It's still all about interpretation, this is keeping in mind that Deroir is not a native English speaker, so context is not going be something he might be aware of. > > If she doesn't grasp the proper meaning of the English language she should've asked for help instead of interpreting it all in that way. But I doubt she misinterpret Deroir's tweet, she did all that on purpose. Keep in mind that we are talking about Jessica Price here, not someone else, a very outspoken person on various issues. She has a rather clear political agenda if you take some time to read her tweets. Plus the post that blew this up was made 1 HOUR after Deroir left the conversation. Why couldn't see let it go as well? No, it was all premeditated, if anything she wanted to see how Arenanet would react. > We are talking about a person that doesn't even understand the meaning of the word sexism, or feigns ignorance, because she should be a university graduate with at least higher education so such concepts shouldn't be so alien to her. > > > I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question. > > This has been happening since at least 2009, you are a bit too late to try to stop it now, 9 years later. Or rather I have info of at least someone getting fired due to social media as old as 2009, I'm sure there have been more incidents before that, although social media haven't been so important, or wide spread, before that, I think. What you can do though is not to bring your political agenda on social media, especially when you clearly tag yourself as a member of a company, and your comments reflect badly on the company. It's about time people took responsibility for their actions. People on social media make their lives public, they are more akin to sports players than employees of companies, and I don't know if you've heard, but around the world sports players are being banned from their teams for things that they post on social media. Your first comment is wrong, it has nothing to do with grasping the proper meaning of the English language, written text has no context and no meaning behind it, only words, how those words are interpreted are up to the reader, unless you choose specific wording that can convey what you mean(which is why so many words have synonyms). As for the sports players, I feel the same way about them...what happens when they're not on the field or representing the team has nothing to do with the team, I do not associate it with the team. I do not care if they have a public face, they're still people, and I treat them that way. I had Mohammad Ali come through my job, and I didn't treat him any differently than John Doe, they want to be treated like every other person on this planet, but for some reason the majority can't seem to do that, they act like these people are someone important. I talk to everyone by their first name, regardless of position, and this I learned from previous employers, the owners/CEO's always went by first name...so that's my background on how I interact with everyone(if I know your first name of course). Almost no one is going to agree with me because the concepts I present usually are to foreign to them, it doesn't conform to societal norms...which I don't because societal norms are in a lot of cases out of whack with times we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Edge.4180" said: > > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > >The main outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry. It will effect Anet short term and long. New, capable developers will think twice before approaching Anet. Some employees are no doubt considering their options and freshening up their resumes. This isn't even close to being over. Rough days are coming, and our digital universe is never going to be the same. > > I disagree, as from my perspective the main outrage seems to stem over: > > 1. Price's inability to accept responsibility, along with her insane insistence that this was all about gender (the hypocrisy being that she is actually playing the role of the sexist in this debacle by lashing out at Deroir and other fans because they happen to be male). > 2. Price continuing to add fuel the fire with dishonest interviews and follow-up tweets in an attempt to cause damage to ArenaNet and (by extension) Guild Wars 2, its fans, and the people employed at ArenaNet. > 3. Certain gaming media organizations trying very hard to dishonestly spin Price as the victim and ArenaNet and Deroir as the villains. This is really the most annoying and disappointing aspect of all of this, to me. > I wasn't specific enough (never post before coffee lol) I meant the industry outrage. Updated my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for. > > > > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea). > > > > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd. > > > > ~snip~ > > > > No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts). > > > > You represent your company if you publicly acknowledge them and the work that is done for them. It's really simple... They can make an official company social media account with their company's blessing. ANET probably didn't have this policy cited in their archaic policy, but nonetheless... what you say has an impact on the relationship you have with your company. The idea of anything less is absurd. Publicly acknowledge them and the work you do for them.. not to mention the vast majority of your social media following is fans of the game you work on and the company you work for. Any statements made that a social media account like that is private is completely indefensible. And lets not forget that the entire argument was perverted by the perpetrator of the abuse into a non related gender issue as a cheap shot to shut down criticism and play the victim. Price was not fired for her views, because of her gender or because of her previous horrible tweets which everyone knows are all irrelevant to the situation. She was fired for abusing multiple (if not arguably all) members of the Gw2 community on a post that she had made about Gw2 on a social media account she had linked to Anet which also happened to have a following of thousands of Gw2 players. I'm not a Twitter user myself and frankly I'd rather be isolated on another planet than use that horrible platform... but to my knowledge most if not all social media accounts have these nice little settings called Public and Private.. which are pretty self explanatory. It's sad how easily this whole mess could have been avoided by simple common courtesy. (Edit) Until now fans generally held nothing but respect or ignorance towards Price either due to not really knowing who she is or because their only interactions with her were through Gw2 AMA's etc in which Price often made absolutely fantastic posts and responses and being a well mannered and informative member of the Gw2 dev team. The idea that we fans hated her which is her own words despite the reputation she had earned working at Anet is absurd. Most of us didn't know much about her.. and the rest mostly held nothing but respect for her and her work until this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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