GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for.

> > > >

> > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea).

> > > >

> > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd.

> > >

> > > ~snip~

> > >

> > > No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts).

> > >

> >

> > You represent your company if you publicly acknowledge them and the work that is done for them. It's really simple... They can make an official company social media account with their company's blessing. ANET probably didn't have this policy cited in their archaic policy, but nonetheless... what you say has an impact on the relationship you have with your company. The idea of anything less is absurd.

>

> Publicly acknowledge them and the work you do for them.. not to mention the vast majority of your social media following is fans of the game you work on and the company you work for.

> Any statements made that a social media account like that is private is completely indefensible.

> And lets not forget that the entire argument was perverted by the perpetrator of the abuse into a non related gender issue as a cheap shot to shut down criticism and play the victim.

> Price was not fired for her views, because of her gender or because of her previous horrible tweets which everyone knows are all irrelevant to the situation.

> She was fired for abusing multiple (if not arguably all) members of the Gw2 community on a post that she had made about Gw2 on a social media account she had linked to Anet which also happened to have a following of thousands of Gw2 players.

>

> I'm not a Twitter user myself and frankly I'd rather be isolated on another planet than use that horrible platform... but to my knowledge most if not all social media accounts have these nice little settings called Public and Private.. which are pretty self explanatory.

>

> It's sad how easily this whole mess could have been avoided by simple common courtesy.

 

This is precisely why her defense that it was her "private Twitter account" is absurd.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for.

> > > >

> > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea).

> > > >

> > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd.

> > >

> > > ~snip~

> > >

> > > No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts).

> > >

> >

> > You represent your company if you publicly acknowledge them and the work that is done for them. It's really simple... They can make an official company social media account with their company's blessing. ANET probably didn't have this policy cited in their archaic policy, but nonetheless... what you say has an impact on the relationship you have with your company. The idea of anything less is absurd.

>

> Publicly acknowledge them and the work you do for them.. not to mention the vast majority of your social media following is fans of the game you work on and the company you work for.

> Any statements made that a social media account like that is private is completely indefensible.

> And lets not forget that the entire argument was perverted by the perpetrator of the abuse into a non related gender issue as a cheap shot to shut down criticism and play the victim.

> Price was not fired for her views, because of her gender or because of her previous horrible tweets which everyone knows are all irrelevant to the situation.

> She was fired for abusing multiple (if not arguably all) members of the Gw2 community on a post that she had made about Gw2 on a social media account she had linked to Anet which also happened to have a following of thousands of Gw2 players.

>

> I'm not a Twitter user myself and frankly I'd rather be isolated on another planet than use that horrible platform... but to my knowledge most if not all social media accounts have these nice little settings called Public and Private.. which are pretty self explanatory.

>

> It's sad how easily this whole mess could have been avoided by simple common courtesy.

 

Yes, it could have been easily with simple common courtesy, but that isn't something most people use or want to use, it gets you nowhere but stepped on. There's another simple solution, I own a company, I provide every single employee with a social media account tied to that company, they can use that anytime they want to talk about anything to do with the company or business we provide...all customers know about those accounts, they also are advised that all employees are allowed to have their own personal social media accounts and what they say on those accounts are the personal views of that person and do not reflect the views of the company as those would be posted on their employer provided accounts...even if their personal account is open to the public. If the customers can not distinguish that I refuse to stifle the freedom of expression of my employees then I would not want them as customers.

[kurfu.5623]

This thread reminds me of a dog chasing his tail; Round and round in pointless circles, and going nowhere useful.

 

That said, I support MO's decision, and think he did the right thing.

[Edge.4180]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for.

> > >

> > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea).

> > >

> > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd.

> > >

> > > Termination, however, seems excessive, especially given that ArenaNet's online etiquette policy/social media policy was severely out of date. This reflects poorly on the management of ANET; this is 2018, and their policy was from 2011. That is a sad, sad state of affairs for a company that is regularly involved in online interactions with the community base.

> > >

> > > This also speaks to the player base as a whole; those employees have lost their livelihood, as a result of comments made toward people on a social media platform. There were real-world consequences of their actions, but when players come on the forums to badmouth the developers, they don't even get banned in the game, only from the forums (and that doesn't even always happen). That's very two-faced of our community to be pleased that these employees were terminated from their earning potential, and now have to deal with the fallout that comes with that (ie, unemployment ineligibility, lack of income, managing their family expenses and households, getting a new career in an industry that may see them as risks, etc).

> > >

> > > Lastly, Mike O'Brien should NOT have posted publicly about the actions. HR decisions by a company are internal, and it was NO ONE'S business about the employment status. If he truly wanted to respond, he should have simply posted "Appropriate actions have been taken, and further discussion would be inappropriate."

> > >

> > > You (read: the player base), are not privy to ANET's internal hiring and firing, and you should have zero expectation to be. Personally, those employees should seek legal counsel about their options against ANET for public defamation and revealing of private human resources information in a 100% public space. That point is the single most unacceptable part of how Mike O'Brien has acted in this: he has ZERO right to post that PRIVATE information to a player base which has ZERO RIGHT to know about that, and the idea that you (read: player base), had the expectation of your right to that information is shameful.

> > >

> > > As to their actions: Yes, their response was definitely inappropriate.

> > >

> > > Both sides are to blame in this, and this was just poor form on both party's behalfs, but most of all, the distasteful behavior and absurd expectations of the Guild Wars 2 player base are appalling. ANET's internal issues are none of your business. You have absolutely no right to the information given, and Mike O'Brien had zero right to post it to appease you (the player base). Check yourselves the next time you think that you are privileged to private information that has zero consequence on your life. Absolutely repulsive and toxic behavior and mindsets, in my opinion.

> > >

> >

> > One thing, MO never stated any names or what actions were taken, all he had stated is that two individuals no longer work for Arena Net, the only person that is blasting any information about this whole debacle is to the public domain is JP.

>

> It's still an internal, HR issue. The community had zero right to know. And it's obvious what he was referencing. I guess Mr. O'Brien has posted in the past when ANET employees have been terminated for being tardy to work too many times, or when they've been terminated for bad work ethic, or when they've been terminated for creating a negative work enviornment, or when they've been terminated for... You get the point.

 

There is nothing unusual about a company announcing that it is cutting ties in some fashion with a particular employee. It happens all the time, in much more public forums than this (such as national news networks, television, etc.).

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for.

> > >

> > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea).

> > >

> > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd.

> > >

> > > Termination, however, seems excessive, especially given that ArenaNet's online etiquette policy/social media policy was severely out of date. This reflects poorly on the management of ANET; this is 2018, and their policy was from 2011. That is a sad, sad state of affairs for a company that is regularly involved in online interactions with the community base.

> > >

> > > This also speaks to the player base as a whole; those employees have lost their livelihood, as a result of comments made toward people on a social media platform. There were real-world consequences of their actions, but when players come on the forums to badmouth the developers, they don't even get banned in the game, only from the forums (and that doesn't even always happen). That's very two-faced of our community to be pleased that these employees were terminated from their earning potential, and now have to deal with the fallout that comes with that (ie, unemployment ineligibility, lack of income, managing their family expenses and households, getting a new career in an industry that may see them as risks, etc).

> > >

> > > Lastly, Mike O'Brien should NOT have posted publicly about the actions. HR decisions by a company are internal, and it was NO ONE'S business about the employment status. If he truly wanted to respond, he should have simply posted "Appropriate actions have been taken, and further discussion would be inappropriate."

> > >

> > > You (read: the player base), are not privy to ANET's internal hiring and firing, and you should have zero expectation to be. Personally, those employees should seek legal counsel about their options against ANET for public defamation and revealing of private human resources information in a 100% public space. That point is the single most unacceptable part of how Mike O'Brien has acted in this: he has ZERO right to post that PRIVATE information to a player base which has ZERO RIGHT to know about that, and the idea that you (read: player base), had the expectation of your right to that information is shameful.

> > >

> > > As to their actions: Yes, their response was definitely inappropriate.

> > >

> > > Both sides are to blame in this, and this was just poor form on both party's behalfs, but most of all, the distasteful behavior and absurd expectations of the Guild Wars 2 player base are appalling. ANET's internal issues are none of your business. You have absolutely no right to the information given, and Mike O'Brien had zero right to post it to appease you (the player base). Check yourselves the next time you think that you are privileged to private information that has zero consequence on your life. Absolutely repulsive and toxic behavior and mindsets, in my opinion.

> > >

> >

> > One thing, MO never stated any names or what actions were taken, all he had stated is that two individuals no longer work for Arena Net, the only person that is blasting any information about this whole debacle is to the public domain is JP.

>

> It's still an internal, HR issue. The community had zero right to know. And it's obvious what he was referencing. I guess Mr. O'Brien has posted in the past when ANET employees have been terminated for being tardy to work too many times, or when they've been terminated for bad work ethic, or when they've been terminated for creating a negative work enviornment, or when they've been terminated for... You get the point.

 

Again MO never went into any details on the matter, show me where he says that they were terminated, or where he puts their name on blast for the incident, or makes any false claims on the matter. So where’s the defamation?

 

There are precedents all over of companies handling situations similar to this and handling them in a similar manner, and they were upheld by courts.

 

Also here’s what’s needed for a defamation case:

 

To win a defamation case, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement.

 

Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> Your first comment is wrong, it has nothing to do with grasping the proper meaning of the English language, written text has no context and no meaning behind it, only words, how those words are interpreted are up to the reader, unless you choose specific wording that can convey what you mean(which is why so many words have synonyms).

 

Can't be that so many found nothing wrong with Deroir's comment, I guess we could ask an English teacher about their opinion on the subject to solve this argument once and for all. But no, that wouldn't matter anyway because we are talking about a seriously biased person that probably "misinterpret" it on purpose. Why would she wait 1 HOUR before responding again? And after the situation calmed down and it was like we were getting back to normal. Call me conspiracy theorist if you will, but I'm not buying it that it was a coincidence and a simple misunderstanding. I see as the entire thing happening on purpose to create the narrative of JP.

 

> As for the sports players, I feel the same way about them...what happens when they're not on the field or representing the team has nothing to do with the team, I do not associate it with the team. I do not care if they have a public face, they're still people, and I treat them that way. I had Mohammad Ali come through my job, and I didn't treat him any differently than John Doe, they want to be treated like every other person on this planet, but for some reason the majority can't seem to do that, they act like these people are someone important. I talk to everyone by their first name, regardless of position, and this I learned from previous employers, the owners/CEO's always went by first name...so that's my background on how I interact with everyone(if I know your first name of course). Almost no one is going to agree with me because the concepts I present usually are to foreign to them, it doesn't conform to societal norms...which I don't because societal norms are in a lot of cases out of whack with times we live in.

 

I guess this is where lots of people will disagree with you. What you do on social media doesn't matter to anyone, but your friends I guess, except when you are a member of a team. The actions of an individual reflect badly on the team. Misbehaving on social media, or in public, has everything to do with the team, because it reflects badly on the team. Which is why even lead players are being sent off if they misbehave. I don't understand why sending these people away is the problem, and not people behaving like that in the first place. Is that kind of behavior acceptable? Should it be acceptable?

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

The glaringly scary aspect of this thread imho is initially Gaile posted this thread was to be constructive and not demean any employee past or present. Well the intent of many here and more so on reddit is to bash a female developer. And it's continuation is perceived as Anet condoning it. And can even be perceived as encouraging it. Anger has played a HUGE role in this debacle from the start. I think Anet needs a corporate filter. A PR person worth their salt would never approach this as it has been. All this is is fuel to the fire and only serves to incite. If snap judgement termination is proper, then close this thread and ban anyone that starts a new one, which would not be a good idea either, but it would be in keeping with current reactions.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > Your first comment is wrong, it has nothing to do with grasping the proper meaning of the English language, written text has no context and no meaning behind it, only words, how those words are interpreted are up to the reader, unless you choose specific wording that can convey what you mean(which is why so many words have synonyms).

>

> Can't be that so many found nothing wrong with Deroir's comment, I guess we could ask an English teacher about their opinion on the subject to solve this argument once and for all. But no, that wouldn't matter anyway because we are talking about a seriously biased person that probably "misinterpret" it on purpose. Why would she wait 1 HOUR before responding again? And after the situation calmed down and it was like we were getting back to normal. Call me conspiracy theorist if you will, but I'm not buying it that it was a coincidence and a simple misunderstanding. I see as the entire thing happening on purpose to create the narrative of JP.

>

> > As for the sports players, I feel the same way about them...what happens when they're not on the field or representing the team has nothing to do with the team, I do not associate it with the team. I do not care if they have a public face, they're still people, and I treat them that way. I had Mohammad Ali come through my job, and I didn't treat him any differently than John Doe, they want to be treated like every other person on this planet, but for some reason the majority can't seem to do that, they act like these people are someone important. I talk to everyone by their first name, regardless of position, and this I learned from previous employers, the owners/CEO's always went by first name...so that's my background on how I interact with everyone(if I know your first name of course). Almost no one is going to agree with me because the concepts I present usually are to foreign to them, it doesn't conform to societal norms...which I don't because societal norms are in a lot of cases out of whack with times we live in.

>

**> I guess this is where lots of people will disagree with you. What you do on social media doesn't matter to anyone, but your friends I guess, except when you are a member of a team. The actions of an individual reflect badly on the team. Misbehaving on social media, or in public, has everything to do with the team, because it reflects badly on the team. Which is why even lead players are being sent off if they misbehave. I don't understand why sending these people away is the problem, and not people behaving like that in the first place. Is that kind of behavior acceptable? Should it be acceptable?**

 

Why does it not matter what they say on social media or in public, because in my view, if they are not on the field or wearing the uniform or at a team sponsored function then they are just like any other Tom, Dick, Harry or Sally on the street. _What they do or say has no affect on me unless it's directed at me personally,_ so I literally could care less what they do or say on their personal time, if people want to blindly look up to these people and hold them to a higher standard, be my guest, but I don't and won't. They think they deserve special treatment for being a member of a team or some other highly visibly position, could luck getting that from me, it will never happen...no matter who you are and what position you hold, you're just another person in my book. Don't really care what my friends think either, because if they're that concerned with image, then they really aren't my friends.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> The main industry outrage over JP/PF being fired seems to be the precedent it sets for the industry.

Except there was no precedent here. It has happened before, many times over, to many people, both male and female. In fact, it has even happened to _JP_ before.

 

> @"Soa Cirri.6012" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> >BTW I didn't say I think KF wasn't fired

> Well now I'm confused. Do you think he was fired, or not?

> >Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. -MO

> I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than, "They were fired" without some major leeway given for wide interpretation.

There is however quite a wide margin of interpretation there. Mo might have decided to fire them after seeing the whole situation. He might have decided to discipline them other way, but their reaction made firing an only choice. Or one of them might have resigned on their own (one, because we do know it's not the case for JP).

 

> As many have pointed out, the forums and reddit are not widely representative of the majority of the player base, as most active players are busy playing the game. Unless there is actual data to back up any assertion as to the financial impact of any event, any claims as to the consequences of this, assuming they could even be isolated, are pure speculation, and not a basis of proof.

Yes, we do not know what financial impact JPs action had on the company. We do know however, that what she did had a significant PR impact. When she blew up on Deroir, she managed to pull Anet into this. In such a case nobody's going to wait for months to see the aftermath. Seriously, most corporate employers would have had any employer that did so much PR damage fired as well. Including those that now are trying to say they wouldn't.

 

I know, that i'd have been instantly fired from my job if i caused PR disaster on this scale. Even though my relatons with my bosses are very good, and it's not easy to actually get fired where i work.

 

By the way, it's not the first time someone in Anet is getting sanctioned for their social media activity. There were at least some muzzle orders and disciplining actions before, and i'm pretty sure one of the former dungeon team members quit the job partly due to conflicts about this. It's just it's only the second case when someone attacked community members, and the previous case was within game. And we don't really now if the GM responsible for the previous affair is still working for Anet. He might have been fired too, for all we know (it was handled more quietly, probably because it didn't get as bad as this time).

 

So, it's nothing new.

 

Ah, one part that people are apparently missing. Remember, who MO is. That's the guy that once introduced the infamous "no communication communication policy" exactly because he feared things like that would happen. I don't know why anyone's surprised he got really upset over all of this.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > My views on this are two-part; I am concerned they were terminated for this, but at the same time, I am also a bit appalled they didn't have the sense to understand a Twitter account, even if personal, linked to their workplace, can have dramatic effect, and does, by defacto, represent the company they work for.

> > > > >

> > > > > My Twitter account is not tied to my name, it is not recognizable as being "me," but it does represent my views and my personal opinions, all without referencing, AT ANY TIME, the company I work for (which I have learned, after many years, isn't a good idea).

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot even fathom the idea of referencing my company in my social media, as sometimes, I post things that would definitely result in customer loss, angering a very large community of gamers, etc. The idea that you're not posting on an official "company" account, and yet, work for that company, and it not reflecting upon the company you are directly associated with, is absurd.

> > > >

> > > > ~snip~

> > > >

> > > > No, it is not absurd, what's absurd is that no one uses common sense anymore, that's what's absurd...common sense tells me that a personal social media account, whether someone identifies their employer or not is just that, a personal social media account and what ever that person says on that account is their opinions and thoughts alone, not those of their employer. If I expected them to say something company related I would expect to appear on a company provided social media account(which seem to be in short supply, get with the program businesses, supply all of your employees with their own social media accounts, so they can go back to not identifying you on their personal accounts).

> > > >

> > >

> > > You represent your company if you publicly acknowledge them and the work that is done for them. It's really simple... They can make an official company social media account with their company's blessing. ANET probably didn't have this policy cited in their archaic policy, but nonetheless... what you say has an impact on the relationship you have with your company. The idea of anything less is absurd.

> >

> > Publicly acknowledge them and the work you do for them.. not to mention the vast majority of your social media following is fans of the game you work on and the company you work for.

> > Any statements made that a social media account like that is private is completely indefensible.

> > And lets not forget that the entire argument was perverted by the perpetrator of the abuse into a non related gender issue as a cheap shot to shut down criticism and play the victim.

> > Price was not fired for her views, because of her gender or because of her previous horrible tweets which everyone knows are all irrelevant to the situation.

> > She was fired for abusing multiple (if not arguably all) members of the Gw2 community on a post that she had made about Gw2 on a social media account she had linked to Anet which also happened to have a following of thousands of Gw2 players.

> >

> > I'm not a Twitter user myself and frankly I'd rather be isolated on another planet than use that horrible platform... but to my knowledge most if not all social media accounts have these nice little settings called Public and Private.. which are pretty self explanatory.

> >

> > It's sad how easily this whole mess could have been avoided by simple common courtesy.

>

> Yes, it could have been easily with simple common courtesy, but that isn't something most people use or want to use, it gets you nowhere but stepped on. There's another simple solution, I own a company, I provide every single employee with a social media account tied to that company, they can use that anytime they want to talk about anything to do with the company or business we provide...all customers know about those accounts, they also are advised that all employees are allowed to have their own personal social media accounts and what they say on those accounts are the personal views of that person and do not reflect the views of the company as those would be posted on their employer provided accounts...even if their personal account is open to the public. If the customers can not distinguish that I refuse to stifle the freedom of expression of my employees then I would not want them as customers.

 

That's a smart way to do it.. one i'd stress most company's use specifically to avoid these situations in the first place.

Many do seem to do that these days anyway.

 

Though the argument about people being unable to seperate the views of the individual and the company is what I take issue with.. I doubt anyone honestly believes Anet was responsible for what Price said and had been spouting on Twitter for years.. for the most part that was all irrelevant anyway.

 

It's was the unprovoked abuse people took issues with.. not to mention statements like pretending to like the consumers.. there's just no way a company could defend that kind of thing.. it would utterly destroy their relationship with customers.

 

As I said it's not her views or gender or any other reason she's attempting to justify her firing on that actually got her fired.. it's her hostility to customers who did nothing to deserve it.

If the roles were switched and Derior was the one acting like a jerk everyone would have jumped to Price's defense instead.

[Orimidu.9604]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> The glaringly scary aspect of this thread imho is initially Gaile posted this thread was to be constructive and not demean any employee past or present. Well the intent of many here and more so on reddit is to bash a female developer. And it's continuation is perceived as Anet condoning it. And can even be perceived as encouraging it. Anger has played a HUGE role in this debacle from the start. I think Anet needs a corporate filter. A PR person worth their salt would never approach this as it has been. All this is is fuel to the fire and only serves to incite. If snap judgement termination is proper, then close this thread and ban anyone that starts a new one, which would not be a good idea either, but it would be in keeping with current reactions.

 

I have been wondering why this thread has been ongoing for about a week now. It's served its purpose and continued comments are, as another user eloquently put it, "as a dog chasing its own tail".

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Orimidu.9604" said:

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > The glaringly scary aspect of this thread imho is initially Gaile posted this thread was to be constructive and not demean any employee past or present. Well the intent of many here and more so on reddit is to bash a female developer. And it's continuation is perceived as Anet condoning it. And can even be perceived as encouraging it. Anger has played a HUGE role in this debacle from the start. I think Anet needs a corporate filter. A PR person worth their salt would never approach this as it has been. All this is is fuel to the fire and only serves to incite. If snap judgement termination is proper, then close this thread and ban anyone that starts a new one, which would not be a good idea either, but it would be in keeping with current reactions.

>

> I have been wondering why this thread has been ongoing for about a week now. It's served its purpose and continued comments are, as another user eloquently put it, "as a dog chasing its own tail".

 

Fear most likely. Which no doubt fueled the decision to handle things the way they (Anet) have. There is a big disconnect internally if the stress levels have reached the point of redlining so easily. All MB had to say was "**There has been an online exchange that is not in keeping with our current social media guidelines and is being reviewed internally. We will take what ever actions we deem appropriate after said review has concluded. We wish to apologize for any upset this has caused our community. We are closing this thread and will do the same with any new ones as this is now an internal matter**"

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> Why does it not matter what they say on social media or in public, because in my view, if they are not on the field or wearing the uniform or at a team sponsored function then they are just like any other Tom, kitten, Harry or Sally on the street. _What they do or say has no affect on me unless it's directed at me personally,_

 

What they do in their free time affects their team/company though. It's called Public Relations. IF their profiles were private then this wouldn't be an issue. IF all their followers were their friends, this wouldn't be an issue either. But the vast majority of those following such people, are following because of their work, not because of their charming personality. In essence, those following such people are there because they are working on a company, which is why the company, should, be involved in such cases. Plus, in our case it was a discussion clearly about work, it was even in the initial tweet that started all this, it begins "Since I spent all kinds of time saying it on a Reddit AMA..." so I guess the one that couldn't separate private life and work was the one that started all this...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> Whether I condone JP's rant or not is really besides the point, everyone is going to have a difference of opinion, just like everyone is going to interpret whether or not what Deroir said was condescending and/or sexist. There's something I haven't seen much said on here, when writing something on the internet, you have to expect different readers to interpret it in different ways depending on how you write it. It therefore behooves you to make sure that your writing is in the least way suggestive of anything sounding like talking down to or trying to be combative. I personally interpreted Deroir original Tweet as a little condescending and possibly sounding like he knew more than she did about narrative design, but that is my interpretation and everyones is going to be different.

 

You know, this is something I firmly believe. Discourse is improved when everyone tries to see what the other person is saying, takes into account that their initial interpretation may not be accurate and reacts with some tolerance based on the idea that communication between people is imperfect. If we assume that Deroir should have thought about how Ms. Price would take his comments, should we not also expect Ms. Price to have done the same? Who is more likely to have the cognitive tools to predict another's reaction, the amateur streamer or the professional writer, who should have a decent understanding of how people think in order to write dialogue?

[Deimos.4263]

This was a nerd-fight on twitter and should've remained so. It would've been done by now, but the executive team just had to get involved. They generated more bad press for the company and game than anyone else.

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Deimos.4263" said:

> This was a nerd-fight on twitter and should've remained so. It would've been done by now, but the executive team just had to get involved. They generated more bad press for the company and game than anyone else.

 

^THIS.

[fizzypetal.7936]

[https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

")

 

Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

 

I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't it common sense to think that keeping your job depends (in part), on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"fizzypetal.7936" said:

> [https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> ](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> ")

>

> Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

>

> I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't common sense to think that keeping your job depends on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

 

Anet seems to have thought they dodged a social issue by re-acting quickly. Trouble is, they aren't chess players. They only thought one move ahead. Appease reddit. They perceived them as the threat, that needed to be dealt with. But, Social justice etc, is a hornets nest of controversy and they poked a bear they should never have angered.

[Edge.4180]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> The glaringly scary aspect of this thread imho is initially Gaile posted this thread was to be constructive and not demean any employee past or present. Well the intent of many here and more so on reddit is to bash a female developer.

Is it important that she's female?

 

I personally don't care that Price was female, male, or a Zebra (beyond the fact that she, her fans, and the media have been trying very hard to make this all about gender, which is the only thing that has actually dragged gender into this).

 

It's difficult to participate in this discussion and not point out that Price created this entire mess by behaving horribly, although it may have been easier to avoid mentioning her by name if some weren't oddly attempting to deny her role/fault in this, and if Price herself didn't continue to fan the flames with interviews and new Twitter posts. How does one avoid talking about the elephant in the room?

 

I'd really rather the topic be on the disappointing media coverage/bias.

 

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > @"fizzypetal.7936" said:

> > [https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > ](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > ")

> >

> > Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

> >

> > I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't common sense to think that keeping your job depends on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

>

> Anet seems to have thought they dodged a social issue by re-acting quickly. Trouble is, they aren't chess players. They only though one move ahead. Appease reddit. They perceived them as the threat, that needed to be dealt with. But, Social justice etc, is a hornets nest of controversy and they poked a bear they should never have angered.

 

Is it possible it had less to do with Reddit, and more to do with not wanting someone that toxic working at their company? That is, after all, how the official statements read.

[Condutas.3580]

Hello there misters and ladies!

 

First, a small comment: If any moderator feels like this should be moved, by all means, I apologize in advance and have no problem at all with that.

 

I think there have been way to much talk about this but I would like to PERSONALLY give arenanet a big "thank you" from the bottom of my hearth for the professional way this subject was handled.

 

In a world full of problems, with soo many companies totally missing the mark (EA is a good example), in a world where money usually is more importante than values, I feel relieve that a gaming company can still act and have standards.

 

I will definately get some gems as a "goodwill" move to this devs, to this teams that keeps figthing day and day to improve the game, the community and the story from the game we all here love.

 

Best of luck in the future :+1: **

 

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Edge.4180" said:

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > The glaringly scary aspect of this thread imho is initially Gaile posted this thread was to be constructive and not demean any employee past or present. Well the intent of many here and more so on reddit is to bash a female developer.

> Is it important that she's female?

>

> I personally don't care that Price was female, male, or a Zebra (beyond the fact that she, her fans, and the media have been trying very hard to make this all about gender, which is the only thing that has actually dragged gender into this).

>

> It's difficult to participate in this discussion and not point out that Price created this entire mess by behaving horribly, although it may have been easier to avoid mentioning her by name if some weren't oddly attempting to deny her role/fault in this, and if Price herself didn't continue to fan the flames with interviews and new Twitter posts. How does one avoid talking about the elephant in the room?

>

> I'd really rather the topic be on the disappointing media coverage/bias.

>

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said:

> > > [https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > > ](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > > ")

> > >

> > > Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

> > >

> > > I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't common sense to think that keeping your job depends on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

> >

> > Anet seems to have thought they dodged a social issue by re-acting quickly. Trouble is, they aren't chess players. They only though one move ahead. Appease reddit. They perceived them as the threat, that needed to be dealt with. But, Social justice etc, is a hornets nest of controversy and they poked a bear they should never have angered.

>

> Is it possible it had less to do with Reddit, and more to do with not wanting someone that toxic working at their company? That is, after all, how the official statements read.

 

To some defending JP, they are acting true to their nature. I struggle with that myself. Growing up in another era, I see a woman being harassed I feel I should step in and defend her. Today this is a problematic attitude if it's a war of words. My input was neither wanted or needed. The damsel in distress scenario is considered a stereotype and rightfully so. At 60, I am learning I need to do things differently then once upon a time. To give you a glimpse at how I was raised, I stood when a woman entered the room, I held the door, and chair for them. Simply put, treat a woman like a lady no matter what, I was raised that way. Nowadays this causes rolled eyes. Okay, times change. I am learning a lot here also. So, not a total loss I guess.

 

To keep things even, I'm no angel and I have made my mistakes and paid the price for them. Everyday above ground is a good day if you learn something new.

 

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > @"fizzypetal.7936" said:

> > [https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > ](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > ")

> >

> > Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

> >

> > I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't common sense to think that keeping your job depends on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

>

> Anet seems to have thought they dodged a social issue by re-acting quickly. Trouble is, they aren't chess players. They only thought one move ahead. Appease reddit. They perceived them as the threat, that needed to be dealt with. But, Social justice etc, is a hornets nest of controversy and they poked a bear they should never have angered.

 

If statements are to be believed none of the outrage on Reddit had anything to do with the decision anyway.

Mike made a very clear statement in his reply that they were aware of the Twitter situation the day it happened and the decision to fire Price was probably made as soon as her initial comments were made as they violated the company's customer interaction policies.

 

I think people are giving Reddit far too much credit.. and I do agree with those who argue that Reddit or Twitter for that matter isn't the best place Anet and Developers could be interacting with fans of Gw2..

I mean.. what the hell are we talking on right now?..

A forum specifically for Gw2 exclusively for Gw2 players.. if Anet think it's not good enough a tool then I dunno about everyone else here but i'm all for them improving it so that it becomes good enough and making it the main place for Developer/GW2 fan interactions.

[The Knight of Hope.8023]

If anything, the former employee that started all of this should be apologizing for doubling down on the hateful slurs and false allegations that they are now lobbing at the ArenaNET CEO. You can usually tell the quality of a person's character and their true values by how willing they are to slander and libel other people in order to get their way.

 

As an aside, I find it ironic that people whose entire worldview is predicated upon the idea that all of society's problems are mere manifestations of a general lack of kindness, fairness and trustworthiness on the part of the whole of the human species make no discernible effort themselves to be kind, fair and trustworthy towards others when they believe it benefits them personally to be unkind, unfair and untrustworthy.

 

I bears pointing out that this goes beyond simple hypocrisy: When you claim to care about others and about making the world a better place to live and then try to destroy people's lives who have only ever been kind to you until they had to enforce the rules on you that you agreed to play by when you joined your community or workplace, that is a lack of sincerity. That is someone who is disguising their arrogance and narcissism as compassion. There is nothing good that can come from coddling people who practice these kinds of destructive and antisocial behaviors.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Soa Cirri.6012" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> >BTW I didn't say I think KF wasn't fired

> Well now I'm confused. Do you think he was fired, or not?

> >Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. -MO

> I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than, "They were fired" without some major leeway given for wide interpretation. How would he say that? "They were acceptable, so they're no longer with the company?"

> > but when it has a business angle those actions have consequence..

> There has been absolutely zero evidence offered, let alone provided, demonstrating what fiscal impact JP or PF had on ANET, and this crisis arose very soon after another major disappointment among players, which was the delay of the last season of Living World, making it even harder to judge, in hindsight, what the source of any recorded downturn will be. However, after the release bump from an expansion, sales always steadily drop off, or at most plateau; I severely doubt so much as an aberrant bump can be determined from this in either direction, even if the firing had not occurred: and while I will say it cannot be proven that their not being fired would have no financial effect, neither can you really assert, beyond pure speculative assumption, that they would.

>

> As many have pointed out, the forums and reddit are not widely representative of the majority of the player base, as most active players are busy playing the game. Unless there is actual data to back up any assertion as to the financial impact of any event, any claims as to the consequences of this, assuming they could even be isolated, are pure speculation, and not a basis of proof.

> > ANET do police there own game mechanics

> Yes, but not consistently. I brought that up purely for the sake of comparison to demonstrate how crisis levels of rage did not result in any dramatic same-day firings spurred on by players out for blood when it came to major problems within the game, but this case, which had nothing at all to do with the content of the game, _did_ spurr such an outcry. It was merely an observation about the bizarre disparity in reactions between both circumstances.

> > When I purchased HoT I certainly never read that we would have a new full set of legendaries right out of the box

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> >>Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids.

> > So 3 at launch and then the remainder of the set at regular intervals, where the term “regular interval” is not defined as how frequently or how long the intervals are.

>

> Not right out of the box, but the "legendary journey" was heavily advertised as component to HoT. It was a month before the first _new_ collections came out, and several months before _any_ legendary collections could be reliably completed (although they were advertised as ready on release). ANET ultimately released a handful of weapons and then MO suspended the whole thing indefinitely, admitting the legendaries team would be working on PoF and giving no promise that they would necessarily ever return. To suggest that this sort haphazard release schedule even remotely conforms to the definition of "regular intervals,' I believe is a major semantic departure.

>

> https://techraptor.net/content/guild-wars-2-legendary-weapons-suspended-indefinitely

>

> ~~However, disappointingly, it appears that MO's original posts on the suspension are gone from the archives.~~

> Just a flesh wound found them: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/601684/#Comment_601684

> >Though to be honest, how this ties back to JP's unprofessional behaviour and her subsequent firing is.. minimal at best

> I fully explained the premise of the comparison in the original post. It was about the arbitrary nature of the outcry over this entire Twitter mess, and the apocalyptic language used as a specter of some dismal future where JP and PF are not fired. The point was that GW2 has weathered far, far worse crises which actually bore major relevance to the in-game world which every player faced with what was largely agreement, as opposed to the Twitter and Reddit worlds which a relative fraction face as deeply divided sides.

>

> > @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> >as a mathematician

> The matter was a question of philosophy, not maths.

>

> Ephemiel was presenting what was clearly intended as an absurd idea (that someone could justifiably argue 2+2=7 and then insult someone's gender for disagreeing) to suggest that by reducing ethical beliefs to such an absurdity he or she could prove that personal ethics can be objectively judged as they pertain to the larger issue of whether or not her behavior merited firing. In this comparison, ethics and maths are equally abstractions. In fact, I don't see how it can be reasonably argued that maths are _not_ abstract.

 

You have no need to be confused if you had actually read through the thread or at least through my postings within it.

If I was a gambling man I would say that PF was indeed fired based on the recent events .. but as I have said it confuses me as to what grounds it was done on, but not knowing all the facts or the responsibility to make that judgement I have to trust that MO/ANET did what they considered right for the business as a whole and the community it serves.

As for interpretation.. we tend to interpret things as we see it, if anything this situation highlights that pretty well. I already said that following reading a more recent post in the thread, which actually I have been following quite closely, it made me revisit the MO statements and agreed there is no actual statement that says that PF was indeed fired.. there are other ways that employees can be" no longer employed by the company" following a serious turn of events.

Do we know if PF was asked to apologise and refute his words publicly and refused deciding it best he walk away from 12-13yrs employment for a higher cause.. quite possible.

Was PF so emotionally invested in this situation already that getting a dressing down from the company he had worked extremely hard and passionately for, for so long, pushed him over the edge enough to resign.. quite possible.

Was PF requested to resign under the circumstances and did - possibly.

Or was there also other factors throughout his time with the business that when factored into this recent turn of events, made his position that more much untenable and was indeed fired - again possible, but we will never or should never know as it's really not our business to know.

Or was he fired on the grounds this turn events was sufficient when considering the apparent "at will" work status I have been informed exists in that State - if so , I find that displeasing to me and agree it seems pretty heavy handed, pretty sure I have already said this somewhere in this thread as well though.

 

Question - do you run a business, are you responsible for its profitability and in turn the employees that depend on the business as much as the business depends on them?

A business fiscal does not work by the minute, the hour, the week.. its forecasts are done over lets say quarters, over a year.. we will never be parley to a businesses fiscals except by way of quarterly or year perhaps reports , shareholder reports etc and even then all we will see is profit/loss and some likely spin around it with more forecasts and projections. But rest assured those same bean counters will be able to drill down a lot deeper from just a balance sheet, that's how the business can make projections and forecasting's, they seek trends and more importantly they seek reasons so that when the need arises to make other challenging business decisions they can be quantified and qualified.

It takes a company like ANET years to gain the reputation required to succeed in a highly competitive, some might say saturated market space, but such reputations can be destroyed in minutes and if that is allowed to happen its not just 1 or 2 devs that get fired for their conduct it puts a heck of a lot more at risk as well. If you run a business, especially one in an industry where globally everyone is a potential customer (not just those who already play the game) and a member of its community then you would understand why as a business its key that the image is protected and there is a certain expectation that your employees act responsibly and professionally at all times when representing the company, no matter if its in work, at a function with customers and clients or engaging on a public social network. If you choose to overstep those levels of expectation outlined by the company, you better believe you put a target on your back.

 

Policing of mechanics.. now I am confused.. you say they don't, now you say they do but inconsistently.. which is it.

My opinion.. they do but not at levels I might be happy with all the time. I bet the same can be said for most MMO's tbh, especially when the community is continually salivating over a desire for more content naoow.

 

Legendaries.. so actually there were Legendaries , 3 that came out soon after HoT and the original Legendaries were now also included by way of the new collection system.. thought so... thanks Fleshy for looking into that.. I dislike using the search feature on here :)

Were there bugs, issues - hell yeah, but show me an MMO that doesn't.

MO gave a statement to advise that PoF was taking resource for the time being. I mean I can just imagine the uproar if they had decided to put PoF on hold so they could put in a few more Legendaries instead... seriously if this is the best argument you can present to paint ANET as the evil monster .. well I concede the field to you, while I try to contain my tears, really.

 

From a business perspective it came down to MO and the senior management and quite possibly NCSoft considering what was the likely to be the least damaging to the business.. they did not ask to be put in this situation it was forced upon them, but it was a position of damned if they do and damned if they don't.. they deemed removal of the bad eggs to be the best solution all-round to protect its image, the integrity of the product, the people they employ and its community... and I respect MO for doing so.

 

I know you and I disagree, that's our prerogative and actually I respect your opinions.. I don't agree with you, but does that make me a bad person, does it make you one, are either of us deserving of the kind of onslaught that JP deemed necessary, can either one of us now call each other sexist because we don't agree.. I don't think so.

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said:

> > > [https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > > ](https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries "https://www.change.org/p/arenanet-apologize-rehire-jessica-price-and-peter-fries

> > > ")

> > >

> > > Wow...I don't even know what to think. Other than to question myself and wonder if I'm totally out of touch.

> > >

> > > I'm in my 50's...it makes sense to me that if you wear your badge on your social media profile, you do have to always be respectful even when you feel attacked. And that if you do post anything that reflects negatively on your employer, there will be consequences. In an at-will employment state, isn't common sense to think that keeping your job depends on how you conduct yourself while wearing the company badge? Or have times really moved on that much, and I'm just an old dinosaur?

> >

> > Anet seems to have thought they dodged a social issue by re-acting quickly. Trouble is, they aren't chess players. They only thought one move ahead. Appease reddit. They perceived them as the threat, that needed to be dealt with. But, Social justice etc, is a hornets nest of controversy and they poked a bear they should never have angered.

>

> If statements are to be believed none of the outrage on Reddit had anything to do with the decision anyway.

> Mike made a very clear statement in his reply that they were aware of the Twitter situation the day it happened and the decision to fire Price was probably made as soon as her initial comments were made as they violated the company's customer interaction policies.

>

> I think people are giving Reddit far too much credit.. and I do agree with those who argue that Reddit or Twitter for that matter isn't the best place Anet and Developers could be interacting with fans of Gw2..

> I mean.. what the hell are we talking on right now?..

> A forum specifically for Gw2 exclusively for Gw2 players.. if Anet think it's not good enough a tool then I dunno about everyone else here but i'm all for them improving it so that it becomes good enough and making it the main place for Developer/GW2 fan interactions.

 

You could be right, we'll never really know.