GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[hugo.4705]

Yeah! Praise Mike O Brien! I'm sad that some employees prefer to attack the playerbase instead of making good content. Players should'nt confond one person and a whole company, this thing gone too far.

[Discorde.5927]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> Just because your job is a narrative writer, doesn’t mean you are the best at it. It doesn’t mean you’re good. It definitely doesn’t mean you’re immune to criticism.

> Good writers develop their skills from practice and critique from outside sources.

> You don’t improve if everyone tells you you’re amazing all the time. But JP is OBVIOUSLY the very best at creative writing and everyone else is hating on her because she’s got a snootch. /s

>

> But, just because the suggestion may have already been said before or considered before, it doesn’t excuse JPs behaviour

 

Yes I agree, and maybe she isn't the best I don't know. But there are places and ways to make criticism and give feedback without sounding like a pretentious jerk explaining to you the very basis of your job.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"melodyca.8921" said:

> > @"PecanBlue.4965" said:

> > Very disappointed in Anet pandering to what is essentially a bunch of whiny gamers getting upset at someone who undoubtedly faces harassment every day, when the Youtuber probably didn't care that much to begin with. An apology from her, sure, but firing them? Thanks for encouraging the already toxic community.

>

> I think its a sad reflection that so many people think its alright to abuse, threaten and harass developers. She went overboard yes but it was a defense mechanism for what goes on in the industry. And I look forward to the day when game companies crack down on the libel, slander, and defamation that is rampant on these youtubers.

 

Someone posting out to critique a dev over work related detail in a respectful manner is NOT harassing a dev.. its about having open discussion with that person, challenging ideas and opinions, which a lot of the time can help progress both parties line of thought going forward. Unfortunately JP doesn't seem to be able to take criticism too well and rather than discussing it in a mature way with the poster decided to take disagreement to a whole different level and then when it was clear she was not pushing hard enough, decided to try to play the ism card with absolutely no grounds for it. The poster even apologised when it became clear JP was triggered beyond sensible and removed himself from the situation..

[Harrik of Avalone.1867]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Harrik of Avalone.1867" said:

> > > @"Toastbrot.9034" said:

> > > > @"PanBelacqua.9058" said:

> > > > > @"Dyplex.5798" said:

> > > > > I got Path of fire from my brother for my upcoming birthday but after reading the reddit thread and her twitter feed I decided I will return it.

> > > > > I do not support sexism in any shape of forrm, be that against women, men or trans. Please take action anet, this is disgusting behaviour.

> > > >

> > > > Trans people aren't their own gender - trans men are men, trans women are women. If you're referring to people outside the definitions of man or woman, that would be nonbinary.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think sexism against men is possible (given that sexism is based on societal structures enabling it), but that's besides the point.

> > > >

> > >

> > > lmao yes its possible

> > > heres the definition for you incase you forgot:

> > > prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex

> >

> > sexism (as any kind of discrimination) requires the existence of a social hierarchy. You can still find attacks against men distasteful but that doesn't make them discriminatory. Also: men can certainly be discriminated against, but not based on gender, but based on class, orientation, ethnicity, etc.

>

> So, if a female hiring manager passes over the most qualified candidate because he is male, discards all resumes from male candidates for the position, sp3cifically ecause they are male, its not discrimination based on gender?

 

No. It is prejudice, it is wrong and they would have a pretty good case against her/the company. However it lacks the background in power dynamics that would qualify this as discriminatory. Basically: if this happens once/ in few singular cases it is "only" prejudice, if this becomes a social phenomenon that disadvantages a group based on gender/race/class not only in a specific case but structurally in society as a whole, this is when it becomes discrimination.

[Delacroix.8594]

Good riddance, thank you ArenaNet!

[BadMed.3846]

It's never good to know that someone lost their job. Action had to be taken though. The behavior has totally unacceptable.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

This whole situation just makes me think of this song:

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

> >

> > How are you able to identify people's gender and SKIN COLOR through your monitor? I too would like such a power.

>

> Honestly, I don't care what people post here. I'm talking about articles in particular, so I should have excluded the request for comments because, yes, they can't be verified.

 

So you decided to post a ridiculous comment that you have no way of quantifying just for the effect of racism/sexism baiting in an thread surrounding an already volatile issue.. makes sense... sigh!

[Nico Cunen.2589]

Thank you, ANet for taking strong measures to deal with this. I'm deeply saddened by the damage that was caused to the reputation of the company and the game, especially after so many new players arriving past few months.

[Eucliwood.8091]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

 

 

Please do some positive marketing to recover from this.

 

 

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> This whole situation just makes me think of this song:

I was going with:

 

https://youtu.be/KDbPYoaAiyc?t=8

 

 

[Cwnannwn.7681]

"The customer is always right" is something only a bad customer or a bad boss would say. Literally no one believes this shit in retail and that includes actual management in most places.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

This isn't about a customer being right or wrong. It's about an employee doing wrong. There's no doubt in my mind that she breached the terms of her contract twittering like she did.

[Walhalla.5473]

I see quite a lot of people here saying that this firiing shouldn't have happen. This here, the firiing, was Anet protecting itself from further harm, and we need to see it from a business standpoint from from some "ethics" spoint of view ( even then this action would be justified ).

 

The problem here wasn't a dev being rude or sarcastic or posting something we don't like. I would even say that this thing wouldn't have blown up to this extend if JP had apologized after her first response but she also doubled down and called Deroir a rando asshat and complained even more, and while doing this pulled out the gender card. On her twitter account where everyone know who she was working for, where she put in the description that she worked for Anet and also the reaction was due to a comment that was related to her work ( and that was a comment to her post which was related to her work ). She was representing her company while doing this, private twitter account and day off don't work here, she was part of Anet and thats what counts, what she did reflected back to Anet.

Also this whole stuff happened on an incredible bad timing. On the 4th of July where people in the US do celebrate etc. Anet couldn't react to this on the same day, which allowed for this whole debacle to spread even further. And comapnies need to react fast if something is burning, so that they can defuse the whole situation.

Social media guidelines exist for this very reason. And firiing people for this isn't new or even an outrage, its something companies have to do sometimes to minimize the damage or even survive the fallout. ( Only exeption would be EA )

 

Anet saw that this debacle could tarnish their reputation forever and having the CEO speaking to us about it says everything

 

Also we only know what happened with this debacle. I guess there also had been something brewing up internally. Perhaps both were given a second chance but also declined, perhaps not. What happened in the meantime isn't something that goes public, only the result, and the result is what counts now. A Dev insulted an Anet Partner and respected member of the community, doubled down on this, played the victim card and the other dev trying to defend her made it look like Anet was ok with her insulting the community and paying customers. As a consequence both are not with Anet anymore.

[Lowen.8157]

I was going to write a wall of text about where the world is going to with people like her. We've all seen on the news what #metoo did and when it's deserved I applaud it but there is another side which we have seen aswell where is is not even true and people's lives get ruined.

Seeing sexism/racism where it is not even remotely shown, can be added to that. If you get caught stealing something it's because you are stealing something and nothing else.

I'm not blind to the prejudice in the world but how she handled was way out of line and Mike O'Brian showed me today that there is still hope and by doing fixing my believe in Anet.

 

#justice

[Dondarrion.2748]

> @"smitske.4912" said:

> On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified.

 

Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff...

 

Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a fucking social media drama...

[Haleydawn.3764]

This thread has totally ran its course. It’s obvious which comments come from people who are covering their eyes/ears and yelling from the rafters that no wrong doing occurred.

 

All of the evidence I’ve seen has shown the community members attacked by this ex-employee posted replies to her respectfully, neutrally and curiously looking for insight, only to be greeted with a poisonous tongue *because they are men*. Sexism. Works. Both. Ways.

If you represent a company on your public profile, you have to ensure the integrity and image of that company remains intact and positive, regardless of who or what other people are writing/saying.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Dondarrion.2748" said:

> > @"smitske.4912" said:

> > On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified.

>

> Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff...

>

> Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a kitten social media drama...

 

Nope. Definitely not. Uniting against somebody who doesn't belong into our community is not the same as raising pitchforks. You're mixing the few people who did that up with the thousands who did NOT. You're not entitled to do that. The lesson learned is that you shouldn't be a rando a**hat on the Internet. Just think about it. You condemn thousands of people over the few who've shown poor behaviour themselves? Does that make sense? Does everybody have to post a message disavowing with that for you to understand? That's the real sad thing here. Not somebody being fired over celebrating death and behaving like a child towards members of the community that have been there long before you got settled in the already made nest.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > @"aspirine.5839" said:

> > > @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > > > @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > > > > > @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> > > > > > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mo

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > She is a woman in the game industry. She has the right to be angry when people come and try to explain her own job to her. Whether she is a dev or not she has every reason to be angry and to react this way. This is a shame to see her go when she was clearly impersonating the progressive game that gw2 tried to be from the start. The company should have backed her and defended her. This is unacceptable, you are all a bunch of entitled whiny g@m3rz who can't understand the basic concept of decency. Get your kitten together this place was infinitely more welcoming 5 years ago. I'm so disappointed to see you wielding to the outcry of manbabies who can't handle the concept of being told off when you're being sexists kitten. Just read the comments here and on reddit and watch the kind of community you are trying to appeal to, this is disgusting, especially in these days when the subject is widely discussed. There are no excuses.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express their character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options)

> > > > > > >then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Asking for branching dialogs and saying that this might cause players to be more invested might be an obvious comment but calling the person a “Rando [kitten]hat and talking about “Manfeels” is both out of line. She could have either completely ignored him or said it’s been considered and rejected. Blowing up in someone’s face over a remark that’s innocently made? Who does that?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > "However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe"

> > > > > "I I I ME ME ME" This is her job, she knows bestn this is not a suggestion, this is him telling her she is wrong and giving her basic advice on her job, this is the definition of mansplaining, this is sexist, noone is saying Deroir is doing it on purpose, but this behaviour and bias is sexist. He is not "asking" he is explaining her how to do her job. That's fact. Not "could you do that ?" but "I disagree you are wrong, you should do that instead". It's not innocent if you have to face this kind of thing constantly. How did you managed to miss all the discussions about women in tech recently ?

> > > >

> > > > Being an adult and posting in a professional capacity (and yes she was if she was posting as a dev on a publicly accessable account about how to do her job) means that you have to control your emotions. You walk away. You take a deep breath. And then you answer your customer politely. No matter how inane their post (or even abusive they are), _you_ are polite. You don’t insult or pull the victim card. It’s common sense.

> > >

> > > No. This is kitten. If your ""consummer"" is behaving wrong you don't have to take it on you, you react and the company should back you up. And stop asking minorities to be better and start taking responsability for your actions instead of hiding behind the "consummer" status when you're being an kitten.

> >

> > You have a very twisted worldview :) Now I know you are just trolling but still..

>

> My world view is that you need to stop feeling entitled because you are a "customer". And that you should not go around and mansplaining stuff to women, especially when you don't know what you are talking about. Deroir was not making a suggestion, he was not trying to understand, he was giving advice. As nice as it made it sounds, and as good his intentions probably were, he was giving advices to a woman when not prompted to.

 

If you annoy and insult your customers they will stop being your customers and you will fall into bankruptcy. It really is that simple.

 

Getting angry is natural and everyone has that right just as (largely) they have the right to say whatever they want depending on their country. However this comes with responsibility and you will always be held accountable for your actions and words when you make them public.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Dondarrion.2748" said:

> > @"smitske.4912" said:

> > On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified.

>

> Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff...

>

> Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a kitten social media drama...

And another post assuming Mike O'Brien has no agency other than to bend to public outrage.

[Sithis.3564]

Close the topic.

[franzi.8513]

I feel very sad that both of them were fired ... and it makes me really angry that so many people who were not even insulted by Jessica or Peter wanted them to get fired. Losing your job can cause severe depression and it raises the risk of suicide. Is it really worth to take that risk, just because of a Twitter discussion? Maybe her reaction was unacceptable, but I can understand her somehow. During my schooltime I was bullied a lot and after many years of bullying I started to overreact all the time. People always thought I had a bad character, but actually I was just stressed and couldn't take any more critique. Maybe Jessica Price felt stressed about all the critique and mean comments, too. Maybe she has burnout, maybe everything was too much for her. I think someone from Anet should have offered her help instead of firing her. But the only person who supported her, was fired, too - a dad who worked for Anet for 13 years. I don't like this decision at all. I don't think it's fair. Jessica and Peter both worked hard to make this game for us, too. The whole incident makes me so sad that I could cry ... I really don't understand how others can cheer that two people lost their job. I really hope that you never make mistakes in your life.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Dondarrion.2748" said:

> > @"smitske.4912" said:

> > On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified.

>

> Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff...

>

> Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a kitten social media drama...

 

Consider for a moment who escalated it and who made it a social media nightmare to begin with. Derior did nothing to incite the shenanigans that followed.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > @"Discorde.5927" said:

> > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

> > > >

> > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

> > > >

> > > > Mo

> > >

> > > She is a woman in the game industry. She has the right to be angry when people come and try to explain her own job to her. Whether she is a dev or not she has every reason to be angry and to react this way. This is a shame to see her go when she was clearly impersonating the progressive game that gw2 tried to be from the start. The company should have backed her and defended her. This is unacceptable, you are all a bunch of entitled whiny g@m3rz who can't understand the basic concept of decency. Get your kitten together this place was infinitely more welcoming 5 years ago. I'm so disappointed to see you wielding to the outcry of manbabies who can't handle the concept of being told off when you're being sexists kitten. Just read the comments here and on reddit and watch the kind of community you are trying to appeal to, this is disgusting, especially in these days when the subject is widely discussed. There are no excuses.

> >

> > Hi Jessica! How's your vacation going?

> >

> > Edit: can you, please, quote when he is telling her how to work though?

>

> "However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design;

> When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC.

> But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!"

>

> He is disagreeing with here expertise on the matter, you don't disagree with an expert in a domain you don't know anything about, you ask, you learn, you try to understand, you don't disagree.

>

> Then he doesn't believe what she is saying about the issue being in the MMORPG genre. He thinks he knows best.

>

> Then he believes he knows what the issue is better than her.

>

> Then he explains her job to her and tries to give her a suggestion so basic that it is obvious she already considered it and at one point you need to realize that you don't know anything about the subject and stop giving your opinion. Especially directly to her. You can cry here for branching choices to your heart content, that's the right place, but don't go to a specialist telling her how she should do her job, that's all.

>

> And yes he is polite and trying to be thoughtful, this doesn't change the fact that he is mansplaining.

>

 

Not once are you explaining why this feedback is "mansplaining". You just skip the explanation the entire time just to jump at the conclusion at the very end that it is indeed mansplaining because... he debated and thought he was right? So let's see:

- You're assuming the feedback would have been different, would the dev have been a guy. Unless you're not paying attention, male devs get a lot of drama their way as well, and yes that include people telling them they know better.

- You're assuming that every female would necessarily agree with her (cause you know, we all love people speaking in our name...).

 

Just that should be enough for any reasonable person to understand why this accusation doesn't hold one bit. But nope. Even though there's literally nothing to be found that would even come close to explaining why this feedback was in reality just there to patronize a woman, you come to the conclusion that it is.

Sorry, it's an identity fallacy.

 

The best you can do if you absolutely want to defend that behavior is the second part, where you mention that the negative feedback was unwelcome. But then again, it's got nothing to do with gender, literally all professionals get some negative criticism here and there, we don't all pull a victim card out of nowhere.

 

For those who actually "work in IT", it's pretty common to discuss about best implementations and disagree on things, be it man's idea against man's idea, woman's idea against woman's idea or man's idea against woman's idea. It doesn't matter, it never matters. What matters is getting the best product.

It's called debating. Something that apparently died a couple years ago as society, as even something as basic as providing feedbacks and debating over a topic is now source of "offense".

 

The insane amount of shortcuts and assumptions are why everything has been going wrong lately. I'll say it again, every time there's a misfire like that it hurts the feminist movement. Double standards hurts.

 

Oh, and I don't know if you're a guy or a girl, and you don't know if I'm a guy or a girl. And I don't care to know.

[Fatal Frame.9568]

> @"yjin.7568" said:

> This is something you deal with on a daily basis as a professional interacting with customers. Dealing with customer feedback and criticism, even if unwanted, is part of being a professional. Also, nobody should be naive enough to think their public behaviour off hours doesn't impact the company they work for, let alone a direct interaction with a customer.

>

> She publicly declares she's an ANet employee on her profile, and is publicly posting about the game itself. Twitter accounts can be private, yet this is not the case for Price. Why post publicly if you can't handle any type of civil discourse? She even writes that she doesn't know how the stagnant narrative can be changed for the better. Customer feedback is important in any field, let alone one as subjective as art where new perspectives (even amateur ones) can be instrumental in overcoming challenges. Any reasonable person might have even thought she was asking for opinions and suggestions... not to mention the response was from Deroir, an official partner of ANet and a community figure who's been creating GW2 content for years. In what world could a brief, polite feedback like that be construed as an attack on her sex? She lashes out at him, then proceeds to say the next "rando kitten" making suggestions will be blocked and that "there's a lot of hurt manfeels today". Irony much? That statement alone can be taken the wrong way by the whole community paying attention to this very public exchange. Fries and others defending her just added fuel to the fire by making the community think this behaviour is condoned by ANet's dev team. Let's not even talk about her toxic Twitter history or her further lashing out at another community figure.

>

> It really doesn't matter what Price thought. Her interactions with ANet's customer/community base had a very tangible impact on their goodwill, and therefore ANet's bottom line. Business is business and employees are fired for way less.

 

QFT.