Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"wayward.4792" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > > > > > I have not always been as now: > > > The fever'd diadem on my brow > > > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > > > > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. > > > > Oh I forgot to say... > > yeah I'm a dev, And I have also no twitter account. I don't trust myself to face criticism correctly. > > But again... that's why I refuse to use a facebook/twitter account :). > > > > I value my company that much, it's like a family, and I wouldn't want to cause trouble to my family by burning out someday (which already happened internally once ~) > > Personally, I don't believe you should have to fear facing criticism correctly on a twitter or facebook account? But yeah, do what you gotta to keep yourself invested and valued. It's a real rough business. I never doubt that people who are in it are in it out of love for the work, because I can't see any other reason to deal with the other parts of it. I don't exactly fear criticism, I just don't trust myself to be always 100% aware. Example: If i get drunk one night, go on twitter, and look at criticism while representing my company, I might do something damageable. And it wouldn't be fair to blame the company for it. Easy solution: anon account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > Today a neighbor's kid shared her artwork with my family. > > Her: Look at this drawing! > Me: That's really interesting! I'm a big fan of your work. But, let me give you a little advice, maybe if you colored in the lines people wouldn't have problems with your art. > Her: *Biggest frown I've ever seen* > Me: You getting upset at my obvious attempt to create a dialogue with you really upsets me. If that's the way you're going to be then sorry. > Her: *Starts crying* > My Family: He's just being polite. Fine, let's get the neighbors involved and we'll see who's right. > > Edit: Thanks for comments. Made some edits based on them Do you have any idea how fragile that makes women sound? It basically equates them to children. Do me a favor stop helping the cause right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"wayward.4792" said: > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > I have not always been as now: > The fever'd diadem on my brow > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. Have you tried differentiating between the fans that are nice, and the ones that are not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > > > > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > > > > > > > I have not always been as now: > > > > The fever'd diadem on my brow > > > > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > > > > > > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. > > > > > > Oh I forgot to say... > > > yeah I'm a dev, And I have also no twitter account. I don't trust myself to face criticism correctly. > > > But again... that's why I refuse to use a facebook/twitter account :). > > > > > > I value my company that much, it's like a family, and I wouldn't want to cause trouble to my family by burning out someday (which already happened internally once ~) > > > > Personally, I don't believe you should have to fear facing criticism correctly on a twitter or facebook account? But yeah, do what you gotta to keep yourself invested and valued. It's a real rough business. I never doubt that people who are in it are in it out of love for the work, because I can't see any other reason to deal with the other parts of it. > > I don't exactly fear criticism, I just don't trust myself to be always 100% aware. > Example: If i get drunk one night, go on twitter, and look at criticism while representing my company, I might do something damageable. > And it wouldn't be fair to blame the company for it. > Easy solution: anon account. Maybe it's like driving. Don't do it when intoxicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward.4792 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > > > I have not always been as now: > > The fever'd diadem on my brow > > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. > > Have you tried differentiating between the fans that are nice, and the ones that are not? Yep. It involves cutting out large spaces. Like the GW2 Map chat, twitter, tumblr, and instagram. Basically anything public facing. My experience, though, is that people who define their identity around a hobby or fandom - whatever that may be - tend to be pretty toxic about it in general. I love games - and Steven Universe, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, the Reign and the Sounders, Doctor Who, etc - and consume a lot of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > So, for the people who defend Price, please explain this to me: why are her actions acceptable? Why is what she said appropriate? Why is celebrating the death of a well-known streamer okay? Why is cursing someone out with no provocation a good thing to do? > > > > "Confronting sexism" isn't a valid excuse here. As Saelenthi pointed out, tone is infamously difficult to discern on the internet. Where is the sexism in Deroir's post? And EVEN IF THERE WAS, Price is an employee at a company, PUBLICLY REPRESENTING that company. It is her JOB to be one of the public faces of that company, to be professional and polite, because she does not represent herself, she represents the company. Privately - to a friend on the phone or in person or whatever - she's free to complain all she wants! But NOT in a public space, and NOT while she is representing a company. > > Tone is difficult to discern, but discern it you must...otherwise all written words would be toneless, and there would be no reason to read or write novels, in which you often have to discern the tone of the author...would be the same in this case, and a lot of use determined that the tone of, at least for me, the last tweet from Deroir, was condescending. > > Also, she's not in PR, she's in Narrative, if she was in PR then it would be her job to one of the public faces of the company, but seeing as she worked in Narrative and not PR, it shouldn't be, not everyone is cutout to do PR work, which is why you have people that specialize in PR. > > It appears to me that a lot of people want their speech controlled by who they work for when that speech is in a public space...it reminds how we've taken a complete 180 from the original Greeks, those people that had specific corners where someone could stand up and say anything they wanted...do any of you remember that from Greek history, of course it also started to turn away from being completely free public speech during those same times...so we've been doing this to each other for eons now. Lol once again you have shown us you simply have no idea what your talking about.. you don't need to be PR to represent your company.. and there I was re-reading that part you told us you know how business works earlier in the thread. As I said back then, start your business, employee people, launch your product and then aske your employees to act and say the kind of stuff to any of your client base either directly face to face in a bar out of work or like JP did over the interweebs.. see how far your company grows.. make sure you ask PR to explain what PR actually is though. Of course when you talk about free speech.. yep we all have it, but what was that me ole ma once said... manners cost nothing and act responsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > Today a neighbor's kid shared her artwork with my family. > > > > Her: Look at this drawing! > > Me: That's really interesting! I'm a big fan of your work. But, let me give you a little advice, maybe if you colored in the lines people wouldn't have problems with your art. > > Her: *Biggest frown I've ever seen* > > Me: You getting upset at my obvious attempt to create a dialogue with you really upsets me. If that's the way you're going to be then sorry. > > Her: *Starts crying* > > My Family: He's just being polite. Fine, let's get the neighbors involved and we'll see who's right. > > > > Edit: Thanks for comments. Made some edits based on them > > Do you have any idea how fragile that makes women sound? It basically equates them to children. > > Do me a favor stop helping the cause right now. That's a fair interpretation. It was not what I was intending, but you're right. I made a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"AnClar.1304" said: > > Thank you Mo and Anet for dealing with what must have been a very difficult situation. Especially in this day and age, where civility between people seems to be a disappearing trait, it is refreshing to see companies do the right thing and show that they believe in treating and communicating with others, even with others with whom we disagree, courteously and respectfully. It's always unfortunate when people lose their jobs because of poor judgement, lack of self-control, and basic lack of decency and courtesy. Nevertheless you did the right thing to show support for the community and to not tolerate personal attacks on the part of your employees. For that I am grateful. > > So companies should fire their employees whenever they are uncivil? That seems like it would open a whole can of worms. Is that what you meant? You simply don't get it do you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 For some reason this reminds me of Phil Fish. He started off as just a regular person on the Internet, except of course a jerk. If you look up that name, you will see what I mean. But when he got famous as a developer, well, although the only people who could fire him, is himself, or the customers. His game was actually successful, although incomplete. But this was a guy who was totally controversial, and didn't care about PR at all. The inevitable demise was something that came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Everybody can damage their company’s reputation. Even Dave from Accounting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > Today a neighbor's kid shared her artwork with my family. > > > > > > Her: Look at this drawing! > > > Me: That's really interesting! I'm a big fan of your work. But, let me give you a little advice, maybe if you colored in the lines people wouldn't have problems with your art. > > > Her: *Biggest frown I've ever seen* > > > Me: You getting upset at my obvious attempt to create a dialogue with you really upsets me. If that's the way you're going to be then sorry. > > > Her: *Starts crying* > > > My Family: He's just being polite. Fine, let's get the neighbors involved and we'll see who's right. > > > > > > Edit: Thanks for comments. Made some edits based on them > > > > Do you have any idea how fragile that makes women sound? It basically equates them to children. > > > > Do me a favor stop helping the cause right now. > > I made a mistake. As have a lot of other interesting people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > > > > > > > > > I have not always been as now: > > > > > The fever'd diadem on my brow > > > > > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > > > > > > > > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. > > > > > > > > Oh I forgot to say... > > > > yeah I'm a dev, And I have also no twitter account. I don't trust myself to face criticism correctly. > > > > But again... that's why I refuse to use a facebook/twitter account :). > > > > > > > > I value my company that much, it's like a family, and I wouldn't want to cause trouble to my family by burning out someday (which already happened internally once ~) > > > > > > Personally, I don't believe you should have to fear facing criticism correctly on a twitter or facebook account? But yeah, do what you gotta to keep yourself invested and valued. It's a real rough business. I never doubt that people who are in it are in it out of love for the work, because I can't see any other reason to deal with the other parts of it. > > > > I don't exactly fear criticism, I just don't trust myself to be always 100% aware. > > Example: If i get drunk one night, go on twitter, and look at criticism while representing my company, I might do something damageable. > > And it wouldn't be fair to blame the company for it. > > Easy solution: anon account. > Maybe it's like driving. Don't do it when intoxicated. Basically yeah. But if you can't help it, leave your public facing account on your work computer, and don't look at it outside of work hours or something. Rant all you want on your anon account, in the middle of all the anons :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andraste.7589 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Hello, I greatly enjoy this game. I can't play it much these days; I'm biding my time, waiting almost desperately for my master's degree to finish up, finally, so that I can get back to my favorite games. However, in light of the manner in which GW2 management has handled the recent controversy involving their two fired writers, I find myself on the verge of launching into several blog posts on all the social media accounts I have; I find myself bringing up as a topic of mob mentality and gender discrimination to my colleagues and business partners; to my parents... I have used this as a springboard into the topic so that I can discuss with my sons just how ugly and wrong the internet behaved. Rabid and out of control. I felt shocked that that crowd, the people who seemed hysterical and illogical, are the ones ARENA NET would cater to. I am disgusted, profoundly disappointed, and well, ashamed that I have any part in this mess at all as a player. . I love their work. I thought I loved the game. And that so-called content "creator" who caused all this? I've never even heard of that piece of work before. Why was that one person and his "follows" so much more important than the company's loyalty and honor? Or ME and the rest of the player-base who disagrees with the behavior of the player base? They don't represent me! I am not in that group, yet you've acted to include me with them. You're essentially punishing us all for the bad behavior of a few very loud subreddit folks when they didn't like what the writer said.** I** want those writers! I like what they've done and contributed! Why should I have to feel ashamed of this company now for the way some reddit people exploded? What a mistake Arena Net has made. Has it really not occurred to them, in 2018, among so much competition, that _they _could behave in this way? The right thing to do would have been to support the writers, and agree in the most professional way possible. I cannot see how that wasn't obvious. Good luck. I wish Arena Net the best, but how can they fix this one? editing to include: it is gender based when the writer said so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Sweet bjesus, is there a template going around? =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CETheLucid.3964 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said: > Probably off-topic but this video is relevant to this thread and the overall issue as it pertains to anger. > > _S_ _E_ _E_ _T_ _H_ _I_ _N_ _G_ (Good video, thank you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Play.6104 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Miss Lana.5276" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > Unlike conventional sports where biology plays a huge factor in things, there's no biological reason for women not to be able to compete with guys in the digitl landscape, which is big to potentially breaking down a lot of this problem. > > Great post, but I disagree with this. On the whole, women's reaction times are slower than men's across the board. Of course there are always outliers where the opposite is true, but as a statement of generality this is true, which would usually result in a win for the man. The only other option is one you've already covered in your post (a women-only section of the sport), but from what I've seen those are usually filled with women who are doing it for the entirely wrong reason, which comes down to them doing it out of spite for men, rather than love for the game itself. I'd disagree with that. Women hold world speed record for typing. stereotypically they are better at fine motor skills than men. There isn't much difference between the two for reaction time. It may not be as appealing to women, but there isn't anything physical preventing them from being successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Let me ask this about ‘mansplaining’... -Why is it only a bad thing when a man does it to a woman? -If it is also bad if a woman does it to a man (or a woman to a woman) why do you call it ‘mansplaining’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Andraste.7589" said: >Why was that one person and his "follows" so much more important than the company's loyalty and honor? Loyalty goes both ways. She broke that with her behavior. Didn't you see what she did? Mike O'Brien personally fired both of them, male and female, for what they did for their "actions". However for some reason, some people are trying to make this into a gender issue. From the very get-go, this was never about gender, and yet somehow it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Scud.5067" said: > Sweet bjesus, is their a template going around? =) Thought germs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > I explain this and did research into her history, my post above has some... profound information about her demeanor. I recommend reading it. It has so much historical information and accurately explains how we got here. It would be a shame to see it get buried. I went out and took a peek. Yeah. As much as I sometimes find KIA interesting place, GG was never a good idea. That being said, and back to JP, I pretty much directly went to see Paizo's archived forum page. > While I occasionally found Jessica's posts a bit too snippy to innocent comments, I largely found her opinions nuanced and enjoyable That is part of second to last comment in there. And that is how I saw JP's opinions, douchery, indecency, what ever you want to call it. I also couldn't help but to see that their *then* CSM said: > ...speculation with regards to her departure is not appropriate. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jukhy.2431 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Andraste.7589" said: > Hello, > > I greatly enjoy this game. I can't play it much these days; I'm biding my time, waiting almost desperately for my master's degree to finish up, finally, so that I can get back to my favorite games. > > However, in light of the manner in which GW2 management has handled the recent controversy involving their two fired writers, I find myself on the verge of launching into several blog posts on all the social media accounts I have; I find myself bringing up as a topic of mob mentality and gender discrimination to my colleagues and business partners; to my parents... I have used this as a springboard into the topic so that I can discuss with my sons just how ugly and wrong the internet behaved. Rabid and out of control. I felt shocked that that crowd, the people who seemed hysterical and illogical, are the ones ARENA NET would cater to. > > I am disgusted, profoundly disappointed, and well, ashamed that I have any part in this mess at all as a player. > > . I love their work. I thought I loved the game. And that so-called content "creator" who caused all this? I've never even heard of that piece of work before. Why was that one person and his "follows" so much more important than the company's loyalty and honor? Or ME and the rest of the player-base who disagrees with the behavior of the player base? They don't represent me! I am not in that group, yet you've acted to include me with them. You're essentially punishing us all for the bad behavior of a few very loud subreddit folks when they didn't like what the writer said.** I** want those writers! I like what they've done and contributed! Why should I have to feel ashamed of this company now for the way some reddit people exploded? > > What a mistake Arena Net has made. > > Has it really not occurred to them, in 2018, among so much competition, that _they _could behave in this way? > The right thing to do would have been to support the writers, and agree in the most professional way possible. I cannot see how that wasn't obvious. > > Good luck. I wish Arena Net the best, but how can they fix this one? Sounds like you read some "unbiased" piece of mainstream games journalism. Here's a fact based video explaining it very well: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hayes.6890 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 hmmm, if only we could this kind of forum response on the Cantha topic.... Oh well, regardless of the differing opinions here, at the end of the day a decision was made. Regardless of how everyone feels about it the people responsible for making this decision have a right to decide what is in the best interest of their company. Be happy they are willing to listen to all of your opinions and be thankful. Most companies only pay attention to the bottom line and what is best for making more money. I don't really care if they are right or wrong in this particular instance because it really is an internal issue. If they do not feel they can continue with these team members then they should get rid of them regardless of the reasons why. Those of you that disagree are welcome to hire them onto your teams within your companies. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Be prepared for the fallout of your statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substance E.4852 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > Let me ask this about ‘mansplaining’... > > -Why is it only a bad thing when a man does it to a woman? > -If it is also bad if a woman does it to a man (or a woman to a woman) why do you call it ‘mansplaining’? Because it's a bullshit concept created by people who only want to worsen gender relations in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Andraste.7589" said: > Hello, > > I greatly enjoy this game. I can't play it much these days; I'm biding my time, waiting almost desperately for my master's degree to finish up, finally, so that I can get back to my favorite games. > > However, in light of the manner in which GW2 management has handled the recent controversy involving their two fired writers, I find myself on the verge of launching into several blog posts on all the social media accounts I have; I find myself bringing up as a topic of mob mentality and gender discrimination to my colleagues and business partners; to my parents... I have used this as a springboard into the topic so that I can discuss with my sons just how ugly and wrong the internet behaved. Rabid and out of control. I felt shocked that that crowd, the people who seemed hysterical and illogical, are the ones ARENA NET would cater to. > > I am disgusted, profoundly disappointed, and well, ashamed that I have any part in this mess at all as a player. > > . I love their work. I thought I loved the game. And that so-called content "creator" who caused all this? I've never even heard of that piece of work before. Why was that one person and his "follows" so much more important than the company's loyalty and honor? Or ME and the rest of the player-base who disagrees with the behavior of the player base? They don't represent me! I am not in that group, yet you've acted to include me with them. You're essentially punishing us all for the bad behavior of a few very loud subreddit folks when they didn't like what the writer said.** I** want those writers! I like what they've done and contributed! Why should I have to feel ashamed of this company now for the way some reddit people exploded? > > What a mistake Arena Net has made. > > Has it really not occurred to them, in 2018, among so much competition, that _they _could behave in this way? > The right thing to do would have been to support the writers, and agree in the most professional way possible. I cannot see how that wasn't obvious. > > Good luck. I wish Arena Net the best, but how can they fix this one? > > editing to include: it is gender based when the writer said so You're free to agree or disagree of course... so long as your get the facts straight, which is absolutely obvious you don't have right now. It's always better to get both sides of a story before making a set opinion on anything. What you're saying here in for some key points factually incorrect. Once you've actually spent the time to learn the facts (a pretty neutral video was sent to you), and if you still want to, happy to debate over this. Just one thing, you don't like being assimilated to the "mobs", don't assimilate those who support anet to the mobs either. There are pretty good reasons to be siding with Anet, and if recent history told us something, it's that the "playerbase" has absolutely no problem whining at Anet whenever they do something (mount lootboxes, so called anti cheat "spyware"...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Has someone got a link to the juice? I got the feeling a bunch of little kids got super offended over nothing.... But I wanna see it for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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