Cyrin.1035 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > > > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said: > > > > > I feel a sorry for Peter Fries here. I fail to see a reason to boot him as well, he just defended a colleague there. > > > > > > > > *See many other posts that explain the PF issue clearly. He chose his outcome. Deserves no sympathy whatsoever. I feel sorry for his team that he betrayed. > > > > > > Gotta admit, I feel empathy towards PF's family. I can only imagine the stress this has caused for them all. Can you imagine having to go home to your partner and say you've been fired and why? Can you imagine being his partner and having to recieve and process that information? OMG. Horrific. Don't know if PF was the main bread winner or not...I do hope not for the sake of his family. > > > > > > The fact that PF has behaved a gentleman after the fact, will hopefully bode well for quickly securing the present and the future for him and his family. > > > > Apparently, you thought more about his family than he did when he made his choice. That should have been what prevented him from his decision. That "gentleman" never apologized or expressed any remorse over his actions. Gratitude, but no real care for how he treated the playerbase or let his team down. Maybe they could use his help at the office right now, but he removed himself from it. Was JP worth it, PF? > > In my mind, I was comparing PF's behaviour after the fact vs JP's. PF has not gone on to whomever will listen and continue to blame and slate his employer and playerbase, whereas JP has. To me, that is gentlemanly behaviour. :) Maybe not directly, yet by not pointing out that his firing was warranted, that he made the wrong decision, and apologizing to the playerbase - the two streamers - and especially his team publicly, he isn't supporting or defending his company either. Certainly not against the perception JP insinuated about Anet. If JP has a real argument, she needs to organize and share stories and any real evidence she has of what she believes to be wrong there. Not go off on an emotionally biased, unfounded tirade that ruins the credibility of people that are ACTUALLY trying to eliminate such issues in the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"mixxed.5862" said: > I just watched a certain youtuber Y... lay out his thoughts about what happened on July 4th. I disagree with his analysis and see the events from another angle myself. Even though my point of view is clearly unpopular, there may be a few founded reflections in here. So please hear me out, even though I'll start on a harsh tone: > > I'm disgusted by how a part of this community reacted to JP's tweets, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > Let me explain why I'm shocked by the way so many reacted: It was terrible not only because she was treated in an openly disrespectful manner (some even were offensive and upvoted for it). No, to me it seemed like most didn't even give her the benefit of the doubt, that EVERYONE deserves: That she is a decent person as well. Because if you're reading her comment by that "assumption", it's evident that she called out a comment she perceived as being sexist, and not playing the shame game. I believe that anyone who realized this to then reread Deroir's comment being worded the unfortunate way it was and given the context (her personal twitter page, etc. see below) would have arrived at the conclusion his comment definitely could be misunderstood as being condescending - possibly deriving from subtle sexism. > > I'll lay out the events step by step and annotate what it probably looked like from **her** perspective, plus my thoughts: > > **1)** She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why they present the player character in GW2 the way they do. - Which is to the state of the art in the MMORPG genre. > > **2)** A fan chimes in to comment: "Really interesting thread to read! ? However, allow me to disagree * slightly *." To then suggest the implementation of something as basic as branching dialogue. - With the OKAY emoticon and the * * I think this can easily be misread as being belittling. The tone is set for his following advice: Seemingly given under the assumption that she, as a dev of the narrative team, was completely ignorant. This is what you'll take from Deroir's comment if you assume there's more to it than just the purely factual layer. Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account in the outlined context, reading it as a personal slight is not really a stretch. However she should have been aware of her role as a representative of ArenaNet - her twitter profile was set to public after all! > > Do you believe the massive kitten that reddit brought over JP was warranted? > Then ? But how about you, superbrain, allow me to disagree * slightly * ... (please excuse the paraphrasing) > > Let me elaborate: > It's in our nature to ask ourselves: What does him(her) talking the way he(she) does tell about his(her) opinion of me? This interpretation happens subconciously and plays an important role in all of our social interactions (see: four-sides model of communication). Therefore she may have perceived the comment along the lines of "I think you're incompetent, so here's how you do it, gurl". > Overt sexism isn't broadly tolerated anymore, instead it shows in more subtle ways, like a male colleague assuming an equally qualified female co-worker as naturally being less competent. Why shouldn't she be upset about it? > Rationality, objectivity and competence are still regarded as typical male attributes by a whole lot of people. Thus women wrongfully being considered less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise. I think it's infuriating! It unmistakably IS sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to discern. A valid means of defense the victim has against this kind of sexism is calling out the aggressor. > Was she right assuming sexist motivations? Certainly not, as she doesn't know the youtuber personally and it wasn't but a written comment. But she felt offended anyhow. She shouldn't be disregarded just for being frustrated about (what she perceived to be) yet another macho trying to teach her how to do her job! She's made that experience before - like many women working in male-dominated occupations have. > > **3)** So she's under the impression some macho is treating her in a condescending way and she posts a snappy response. She calls out the (perceived) sexist in another twitter post and then she goes on to voice her indignation about "rando asshats" in general that feel the need to teach her about branching dialogue as if she - with a DECADE of professional expertise - never heard of it. - This emotional outburst will get her fired. Here is where she missteps. It just didn't appear to her that Deroir's suggestion was born from naivety and the excitement over the chance of engaging her into a discussion. People that don't grasp where she's coming from will ask themselves: Is she just pointlessly attacking Deroir for the fun of it, playing the shame game to shut up a critic or did she genuinely perceive to be treated in a sexist way? > Is it just her frustration about know-all macho fans speaking? Or is she this arrogant to tell the fans they have no right to criticize her and make suggestions because they're just not knowledgeable enough? > I'll go with the conjecture that she's a decent person as well and simply was really frustrated. But choose whatever fits your narrative! > > **4)** Deroir then replies she didn't need to get mad because it was obvious he just attempted to create dialogue and discussion, which is disheartening. He then writes "I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it." - This is not a proper apology. He denies the possibility that his comment could arguably be understood as offensive, but if she read it as sth it clearly is not: Sorry anyways. For example a sincere apology would have been as simple as: "I'm sorry I offended you. My comment wasn't meant to be disrespectful." without all that talk of "obvious" and "disheartening" beforehand. This wouldn't dismiss the possibility of partially being to blame for the misunderstanding as well. It would properly acknowledge and legitimize her feeling offended. Deroir's apology was formulated in a polite enough way but had the emotional scope of a "uh, sorry you feel that way, I guess". It mocked her. I'm genuinely convinced that Deroir meant to apologize, and not play her hurt feelings down acting know-all. The issue was: He admired her and was upset about her reaction. But in any case there was no need for her to "apologize" as well. > > **5)** Someone makes a reddit post about it, points the finger her way for calling out Deroir's comment - that she clearly had perceived as patronizing - and a hundred starved Morlocks hungering for blood and female genitalia emerge. The most moderate ones get worked up about her pointlessly aggressive reply to such a polite person. The more savage ones lunge right at her to openly harass and defame because there's not an ounce of humanity left in them. (This is satire, please don't take it to heart.) > > **6)** The rest of her tweets has to be seen in this context: She ridicules them talking about their "hurt manfeels" and uses the unexpected publicity to speak out against fans that act like they have some entitlement to her personal life. - This certainly wasn't clever. She acts in a disrespectful manner encouraging the public/reddit outrage to further escalate. She doesn't take the situation serious at all and is too stubborn to apologize. Even so, I thought her way of reacting was pretty entertaining. > > So in my opinion her reactions were perfectly comprehensible - but unprofessional. A big part of the community jumped to the conclusion her response was a haughty act of aggression purely aimed at shutting up a critic, causing reddit to overheat! I don't want to argue whether her termination was warranted or not. A discussion about it is pretty moot anyways, because as far as I know in the US there is no law for protection against dismissal to speak of (I'm an utter layman and german btw). Certainly it wasn't entirely unwarranted that she was fired. But I don't agree with the people that believe MO proved his "moral integrity" in doing so. In fact: Quite the contrary. Business morale shouldn't be mistaken for a social value. > She simply shouldn't have replied to harsh criticism that she felt was condescending like a private person on her personal twitter account - set to public. > > If I hadn't known Deroir from his twitch channel and some youtube videos as the friendly and respectful person that he is, I would have understood his comment as being disparaging as well. You are welcome to disagree, yet if you do, does that entitle you to publicly judge my personality? > And what if I assumed this condescending behavior stems from sexism, based on previous experiences I've made. Would you feel free to call me "one of the worst kind of people"? (quote: reddit) And if I felt the need to not leave it at that, to go on the offensive and call out the aggressor, would you partake in a public "witch hunt" to get me fired? (quote: reddit) > She took offence to one person's comment and reacted (inappropriately?!) to it! Yet a part of the community acted as if she had just insulted all of their mothers. Justified? > > **Tldr:** > Through her impulsive tweets she had a big part in escalating the whole situation, more so, she was a main driving force with reddit being another. And seemingly she still doesn't admit to her share of the guilt, at least not to the full extent of it - she didn't just speak out only once but kept pushing it. She misjudged the situation and was stubborn to not yield when she still had the chance! However, I don't think she has the whole responsibility. The reddit community can't exactly be described as "innocent bystanders". > In any case I don't regard her as the "passive aggressive waste of a person" a big part of the community does. Many in the community embraced the idea, though, and partook in a crusade to get her fired. She didn't deserve that. Her's weren't "attacks on the community", her conviction was that she was calling out a brazenly macho and ridiculing abusive trolls. > The way I see it, all of this wasn't but a really unfortunate misunderstanding between two respectable people on the internet that was inflated through publicity till it burst. But maybe I'm being naive. > > As for Peter being fired, there isn't much to talk about because in his case it's clear and simple: > It was an alarmingly unfair overreaction on MO's part. He worked at ArenaNet for 13 years! And all he did was trying to help out a colleague against an angry internet mob! I'm certain that in Germany his termination would be judicially revoked without much fuss. The problem is, to this day, she never apologized (to him) and is still pulling the gender card. And "comprehensible" is one thing (I don't agree that someone celebrating death is but whatever) but unprofessional is all that matters in this case. That + absolutely no self reflection or apology (to that person, she didn't even owe it to the community) is why she can't be defended. A know-it-all who can be never be wrong is not someone I could work with. Male or female. And calling MO "unprofessional" is just the piece on the cake. At least he's not being an hypocrite in his declarations, where she clearly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > > > > @"Cyrin.1035" said: > > > > > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said: > > > > > > I feel a sorry for Peter Fries here. I fail to see a reason to boot him as well, he just defended a colleague there. > > > > > > > > > > *See many other posts that explain the PF issue clearly. He chose his outcome. Deserves no sympathy whatsoever. I feel sorry for his team that he betrayed. > > > > > > > > Gotta admit, I feel empathy towards PF's family. I can only imagine the stress this has caused for them all. Can you imagine having to go home to your partner and say you've been fired and why? Can you imagine being his partner and having to recieve and process that information? OMG. Horrific. Don't know if PF was the main bread winner or not...I do hope not for the sake of his family. > > > > > > > > The fact that PF has behaved a gentleman after the fact, will hopefully bode well for quickly securing the present and the future for him and his family. > > > > > > Apparently, you thought more about his family than he did when he made his choice. That should have been what prevented him from his decision. That "gentleman" never apologized or expressed any remorse over his actions. Gratitude, but no real care for how he treated the playerbase or let his team down. Maybe they could use his help at the office right now, but he removed himself from it. Was JP worth it, PF? > > > > In my mind, I was comparing PF's behaviour after the fact vs JP's. PF has not gone on to whomever will listen and continue to blame and slate his employer and playerbase, whereas JP has. To me, that is gentlemanly behaviour. :) > > Maybe not directly, yet by not pointing out that his firing was warranted, that he made the wrong decision, and apologizing to the playerbase - the two streamers - and especially his team publicly, he isn't supporting or defending his company either. Certainly not against the perception JP insinuated about Anet. > > If JP has a real argument, she needs to organize and share stories and any real evidence she has of what she believes to be wrong there. Not go off on an emotionally biased, unfounded tirade that ruins the credibility of people that are ACTUALLY trying to eliminate such issues in the industry. I understand what you are saying. I guess my bar is set a little lower. I'm happy enough that he is taking his firing with way more grace, if you will, then the colleague he defended. Though PF isn't falling on the proverbial sword, neither is he *intentionally* doing more harm. I personally, don't mind PF remaining quiet on the issue. Much prefer that over what JP has done the past few days. :) EDIT: Left out a *key* word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said: > One thing is glaringly obvious here, no matter what side of this debacle you favor, the powers that be here cannot or will not end this thread. Well, yeah, otherwise people would keep talking about it but it would spill out onto lots of different threads and annoy people everywhere. This thread is toxic waste containment (not criticizing any particular view about what happened, just noting the negative feels the subject generates all around). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentMuffin.9573 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I've read a bit of stuff from the both sides of the barricade, the one defending price, and the one defending Deroir and I'm honestly not sure who is right here. But I'd like to say that I feel that firing Price and Fries is a decision too severe for an Internet squabble. ArenaNet isn't afraid of admitting and communicating that their releases will be postponed, or of the changes they make to the game, so I don't see why O'Brien couldn't just just communicate to the public that "we acknowledge that something bad happened, but we need time to think about it and discuss the issue with the parties involved (as much as it is possible)." Especially that there are (were?) people's careers at stake. I'm sad that ANet seems to act like any stereotypical, soulless corporation, and not like company which tries to support diversity, empathy, and friendship. I hope that people responsible and involved in the decision of firing Price and Fries find this decision to be made too hastily and regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"ViolentMuffin.9573" said: > I've read a bit of stuff from the both sides of the barricade, the one defending price, and the one defending Deroir and I'm honestly not sure who is right here. But I'd like to say that I feel that firing Price and Fries is a decision too severe for an Internet squabble. ArenaNet isn't afraid of admitting and communicating that their releases will be postponed, or of the changes they make to the game, so I don't see why O'Brien couldn't just just communicate to the public that "we acknowledge that something bad happened, but we need time to think about it and discuss the issue with the parties involved (as much as it is possible)." Especially that there are (were?) people's careers at stake. I'm sad that ANet seems to act like any stereotypical, soulless corporation, and not like company which tries to support diversity, empathy, and friendship. I hope that people responsible and involved in the decision of firing Price and Fries find this decision to be made too hastily and regret it. That’s one way to think about it. For myself though I wouldn’t want to be the next person she unloads on publicly for the sin of asking a stupid question that “questions her expertise.” Any AMA or forum thread that I saw with her in it, I’d stay away from. Leopards don’t change their spots and she has a long history of posts that show her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixxed.5862 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > I just watched a certain youtuber Y... lay out his thoughts about what happened on July 4th. I disagree with his analysis and see the events from another angle myself. Even though my point of view is clearly unpopular, there may be a few founded reflections in here. So please hear me out, even though I'll start on a harsh tone: > > > > I'm disgusted by how a part of this community reacted to JP's tweets, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > Let me explain why I'm shocked by the way so many reacted: It was terrible not only because she was treated in an openly disrespectful manner (some even were offensive and upvoted for it). No, to me it seemed like most didn't even give her the benefit of the doubt, that EVERYONE deserves: That she is a decent person as well. Because if you're reading her comment by that "assumption", it's evident that she called out a comment she perceived as being sexist, and not playing the shame game. I believe that anyone who realized this to then reread Deroir's comment being worded the unfortunate way it was and given the context (her personal twitter page, etc. see below) would have arrived at the conclusion his comment definitely could be misunderstood as being condescending - possibly deriving from subtle sexism. > > > > I'll lay out the events step by step and annotate what it probably looked like from **her** perspective, plus my thoughts: > > > > **1)** She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why they present the player character in GW2 the way they do. - Which is to the state of the art in the MMORPG genre. > > > > **2)** A fan chimes in to comment: "Really interesting thread to read! ? However, allow me to disagree * slightly *." To then suggest the implementation of something as basic as branching dialogue. - With the OKAY emoticon and the * * I think this can easily be misread as being belittling. The tone is set for his following advice: Seemingly given under the assumption that she, as a dev of the narrative team, was completely ignorant. This is what you'll take from Deroir's comment if you assume there's more to it than just the purely factual layer. Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account in the outlined context, reading it as a personal slight is not really a stretch. However she should have been aware of her role as a representative of ArenaNet - her twitter profile was set to public after all! > > > > Do you believe the massive kitten that reddit brought over JP was warranted? > > Then ? But how about you, superbrain, allow me to disagree * slightly * ... (please excuse the paraphrasing) > > > > Let me elaborate: > > It's in our nature to ask ourselves: What does him(her) talking the way he(she) does tell about his(her) opinion of me? This interpretation happens subconciously and plays an important role in all of our social interactions (see: four-sides model of communication). Therefore she may have perceived the comment along the lines of "I think you're incompetent, so here's how you do it, gurl". > > Overt sexism isn't broadly tolerated anymore, instead it shows in more subtle ways, like a male colleague assuming an equally qualified female co-worker as naturally being less competent. Why shouldn't she be upset about it? > > Rationality, objectivity and competence are still regarded as typical male attributes by a whole lot of people. Thus women wrongfully being considered less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise. I think it's infuriating! It unmistakably IS sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to discern. A valid means of defense the victim has against this kind of sexism is calling out the aggressor. > > Was she right assuming sexist motivations? Certainly not, as she doesn't know the youtuber personally and it wasn't but a written comment. But she felt offended anyhow. She shouldn't be disregarded just for being frustrated about (what she perceived to be) yet another macho trying to teach her how to do her job! She's made that experience before - like many women working in male-dominated occupations have. > > > > **3)** So she's under the impression some macho is treating her in a condescending way and she posts a snappy response. She calls out the (perceived) sexist in another twitter post and then she goes on to voice her indignation about "rando asshats" in general that feel the need to teach her about branching dialogue as if she - with a DECADE of professional expertise - never heard of it. - This emotional outburst will get her fired. Here is where she missteps. It just didn't appear to her that Deroir's suggestion was born from naivety and the excitement over the chance of engaging her into a discussion. People that don't grasp where she's coming from will ask themselves: Is she just pointlessly attacking Deroir for the fun of it, playing the shame game to shut up a critic or did she genuinely perceive to be treated in a sexist way? > > Is it just her frustration about know-all macho fans speaking? Or is she this arrogant to tell the fans they have no right to criticize her and make suggestions because they're just not knowledgeable enough? > > I'll go with the conjecture that she's a decent person as well and simply was really frustrated. But choose whatever fits your narrative! > > > > **4)** Deroir then replies she didn't need to get mad because it was obvious he just attempted to create dialogue and discussion, which is disheartening. He then writes "I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it." - This is not a proper apology. He denies the possibility that his comment could arguably be understood as offensive, but if she read it as sth it clearly is not: Sorry anyways. For example a sincere apology would have been as simple as: "I'm sorry I offended you. My comment wasn't meant to be disrespectful." without all that talk of "obvious" and "disheartening" beforehand. This wouldn't dismiss the possibility of partially being to blame for the misunderstanding as well. It would properly acknowledge and legitimize her feeling offended. Deroir's apology was formulated in a polite enough way but had the emotional scope of a "uh, sorry you feel that way, I guess". It mocked her. I'm genuinely convinced that Deroir meant to apologize, and not play her hurt feelings down acting know-all. The issue was: He admired her and was upset about her reaction. But in any case there was no need for her to "apologize" as well. > > > > **5)** Someone makes a reddit post about it, points the finger her way for calling out Deroir's comment - that she clearly had perceived as patronizing - and a hundred starved Morlocks hungering for blood and female genitalia emerge. The most moderate ones get worked up about her pointlessly aggressive reply to such a polite person. The more savage ones lunge right at her to openly harass and defame because there's not an ounce of humanity left in them. (This is satire, please don't take it to heart.) > > > > **6)** The rest of her tweets has to be seen in this context: She ridicules them talking about their "hurt manfeels" and uses the unexpected publicity to speak out against fans that act like they have some entitlement to her personal life. - This certainly wasn't clever. She acts in a disrespectful manner encouraging the public/reddit outrage to further escalate. She doesn't take the situation serious at all and is too stubborn to apologize. Even so, I thought her way of reacting was pretty entertaining. > > > > So in my opinion her reactions were perfectly comprehensible - but unprofessional. A big part of the community jumped to the conclusion her response was a haughty act of aggression purely aimed at shutting up a critic, causing reddit to overheat! I don't want to argue whether her termination was warranted or not. A discussion about it is pretty moot anyways, because as far as I know in the US there is no law for protection against dismissal to speak of (I'm an utter layman and german btw). Certainly it wasn't entirely unwarranted that she was fired. But I don't agree with the people that believe MO proved his "moral integrity" in doing so. In fact: Quite the contrary. Business morale shouldn't be mistaken for a social value. > > She simply shouldn't have replied to harsh criticism that she felt was condescending like a private person on her personal twitter account - set to public. > > > > If I hadn't known Deroir from his twitch channel and some youtube videos as the friendly and respectful person that he is, I would have understood his comment as being disparaging as well. You are welcome to disagree, yet if you do, does that entitle you to publicly judge my personality? > > And what if I assumed this condescending behavior stems from sexism, based on previous experiences I've made. Would you feel free to call me "one of the worst kind of people"? (quote: reddit) And if I felt the need to not leave it at that, to go on the offensive and call out the aggressor, would you partake in a public "witch hunt" to get me fired? (quote: reddit) > > She took offence to one person's comment and reacted (inappropriately?!) to it! Yet a part of the community acted as if she had just insulted all of their mothers. Justified? > > > > **Tldr:** > > Through her impulsive tweets she had a big part in escalating the whole situation, more so, she was a main driving force with reddit being another. And seemingly she still doesn't admit to her share of the guilt, at least not to the full extent of it - she didn't just speak out only once but kept pushing it. She misjudged the situation and was stubborn to not yield when she still had the chance! However, I don't think she has the whole responsibility. The reddit community can't exactly be described as "innocent bystanders". > > In any case I don't regard her as the "passive aggressive waste of a person" a big part of the community does. Many in the community embraced the idea, though, and partook in a crusade to get her fired. She didn't deserve that. Her's weren't "attacks on the community", her conviction was that she was calling out a brazenly macho and ridiculing abusive trolls. > > The way I see it, all of this wasn't but a really unfortunate misunderstanding between two respectable people on the internet that was inflated through publicity till it burst. But maybe I'm being naive. > > > > As for Peter being fired, there isn't much to talk about because in his case it's clear and simple: > > It was an alarmingly unfair overreaction on MO's part. He worked at ArenaNet for 13 years! And all he did was trying to help out a colleague against an angry internet mob! I'm certain that in Germany his termination would be judicially revoked without much fuss. > > The problem is, to this day, she never apologized (to him) and is still pulling the gender card. > And "comprehensible" is one thing (I don't agree that someone celebrating death is but whatever) but unprofessional is all that matters in this case. > > That + absolutely no self reflection or apology (to that person, she didn't even owe it to the community) is why she can't be defended. > > A know-it-all who can be never be wrong is not someone I could work with. Male or female. > > And calling MO "unprofessional" is just the piece on the cake. At least he's not being an hypocrite in his declarations, where she clearly is. She sure didn't do herself a favor with these recent comments. :/ Having lost her job and with all the fuss, I'm not sure if she really needs to apologize to Deroir, although she better should have for her own sake! 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crosknight.3041 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 and now the shill media is working overtime to vilify us while propping up price on a pedestal because she played the victim card (and continues playing it) and wont take any accountability for her being fired. all while ignoring that Fries was fired too. it's like they are trying to create another pushback against game journalism ethics. surprisingly though at least game informer seemed pretty non-bias about the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > I just watched a certain youtuber Y... lay out his thoughts about what happened on July 4th. I disagree with his analysis and see the events from another angle myself. Even though my point of view is clearly unpopular, there may be a few founded reflections in here. So please hear me out, even though I'll start on a harsh tone: > > > > > > I'm disgusted by how a part of this community reacted to JP's tweets, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > > > Let me explain why I'm shocked by the way so many reacted: It was terrible not only because she was treated in an openly disrespectful manner (some even were offensive and upvoted for it). No, to me it seemed like most didn't even give her the benefit of the doubt, that EVERYONE deserves: That she is a decent person as well. Because if you're reading her comment by that "assumption", it's evident that she called out a comment she perceived as being sexist, and not playing the shame game. I believe that anyone who realized this to then reread Deroir's comment being worded the unfortunate way it was and given the context (her personal twitter page, etc. see below) would have arrived at the conclusion his comment definitely could be misunderstood as being condescending - possibly deriving from subtle sexism. > > > > > > I'll lay out the events step by step and annotate what it probably looked like from **her** perspective, plus my thoughts: > > > > > > **1)** She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why they present the player character in GW2 the way they do. - Which is to the state of the art in the MMORPG genre. > > > > > > **2)** A fan chimes in to comment: "Really interesting thread to read! ? However, allow me to disagree * slightly *." To then suggest the implementation of something as basic as branching dialogue. - With the OKAY emoticon and the * * I think this can easily be misread as being belittling. The tone is set for his following advice: Seemingly given under the assumption that she, as a dev of the narrative team, was completely ignorant. This is what you'll take from Deroir's comment if you assume there's more to it than just the purely factual layer. Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account in the outlined context, reading it as a personal slight is not really a stretch. However she should have been aware of her role as a representative of ArenaNet - her twitter profile was set to public after all! > > > > > > Do you believe the massive kitten that reddit brought over JP was warranted? > > > Then ? But how about you, superbrain, allow me to disagree * slightly * ... (please excuse the paraphrasing) > > > > > > Let me elaborate: > > > It's in our nature to ask ourselves: What does him(her) talking the way he(she) does tell about his(her) opinion of me? This interpretation happens subconciously and plays an important role in all of our social interactions (see: four-sides model of communication). Therefore she may have perceived the comment along the lines of "I think you're incompetent, so here's how you do it, gurl". > > > Overt sexism isn't broadly tolerated anymore, instead it shows in more subtle ways, like a male colleague assuming an equally qualified female co-worker as naturally being less competent. Why shouldn't she be upset about it? > > > Rationality, objectivity and competence are still regarded as typical male attributes by a whole lot of people. Thus women wrongfully being considered less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise. I think it's infuriating! It unmistakably IS sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to discern. A valid means of defense the victim has against this kind of sexism is calling out the aggressor. > > > Was she right assuming sexist motivations? Certainly not, as she doesn't know the youtuber personally and it wasn't but a written comment. But she felt offended anyhow. She shouldn't be disregarded just for being frustrated about (what she perceived to be) yet another macho trying to teach her how to do her job! She's made that experience before - like many women working in male-dominated occupations have. > > > > > > **3)** So she's under the impression some macho is treating her in a condescending way and she posts a snappy response. She calls out the (perceived) sexist in another twitter post and then she goes on to voice her indignation about "rando asshats" in general that feel the need to teach her about branching dialogue as if she - with a DECADE of professional expertise - never heard of it. - This emotional outburst will get her fired. Here is where she missteps. It just didn't appear to her that Deroir's suggestion was born from naivety and the excitement over the chance of engaging her into a discussion. People that don't grasp where she's coming from will ask themselves: Is she just pointlessly attacking Deroir for the fun of it, playing the shame game to shut up a critic or did she genuinely perceive to be treated in a sexist way? > > > Is it just her frustration about know-all macho fans speaking? Or is she this arrogant to tell the fans they have no right to criticize her and make suggestions because they're just not knowledgeable enough? > > > I'll go with the conjecture that she's a decent person as well and simply was really frustrated. But choose whatever fits your narrative! > > > > > > **4)** Deroir then replies she didn't need to get mad because it was obvious he just attempted to create dialogue and discussion, which is disheartening. He then writes "I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it." - This is not a proper apology. He denies the possibility that his comment could arguably be understood as offensive, but if she read it as sth it clearly is not: Sorry anyways. For example a sincere apology would have been as simple as: "I'm sorry I offended you. My comment wasn't meant to be disrespectful." without all that talk of "obvious" and "disheartening" beforehand. This wouldn't dismiss the possibility of partially being to blame for the misunderstanding as well. It would properly acknowledge and legitimize her feeling offended. Deroir's apology was formulated in a polite enough way but had the emotional scope of a "uh, sorry you feel that way, I guess". It mocked her. I'm genuinely convinced that Deroir meant to apologize, and not play her hurt feelings down acting know-all. The issue was: He admired her and was upset about her reaction. But in any case there was no need for her to "apologize" as well. > > > > > > **5)** Someone makes a reddit post about it, points the finger her way for calling out Deroir's comment - that she clearly had perceived as patronizing - and a hundred starved Morlocks hungering for blood and female genitalia emerge. The most moderate ones get worked up about her pointlessly aggressive reply to such a polite person. The more savage ones lunge right at her to openly harass and defame because there's not an ounce of humanity left in them. (This is satire, please don't take it to heart.) > > > > > > **6)** The rest of her tweets has to be seen in this context: She ridicules them talking about their "hurt manfeels" and uses the unexpected publicity to speak out against fans that act like they have some entitlement to her personal life. - This certainly wasn't clever. She acts in a disrespectful manner encouraging the public/reddit outrage to further escalate. She doesn't take the situation serious at all and is too stubborn to apologize. Even so, I thought her way of reacting was pretty entertaining. > > > > > > So in my opinion her reactions were perfectly comprehensible - but unprofessional. A big part of the community jumped to the conclusion her response was a haughty act of aggression purely aimed at shutting up a critic, causing reddit to overheat! I don't want to argue whether her termination was warranted or not. A discussion about it is pretty moot anyways, because as far as I know in the US there is no law for protection against dismissal to speak of (I'm an utter layman and german btw). Certainly it wasn't entirely unwarranted that she was fired. But I don't agree with the people that believe MO proved his "moral integrity" in doing so. In fact: Quite the contrary. Business morale shouldn't be mistaken for a social value. > > > She simply shouldn't have replied to harsh criticism that she felt was condescending like a private person on her personal twitter account - set to public. > > > > > > If I hadn't known Deroir from his twitch channel and some youtube videos as the friendly and respectful person that he is, I would have understood his comment as being disparaging as well. You are welcome to disagree, yet if you do, does that entitle you to publicly judge my personality? > > > And what if I assumed this condescending behavior stems from sexism, based on previous experiences I've made. Would you feel free to call me "one of the worst kind of people"? (quote: reddit) And if I felt the need to not leave it at that, to go on the offensive and call out the aggressor, would you partake in a public "witch hunt" to get me fired? (quote: reddit) > > > She took offence to one person's comment and reacted (inappropriately?!) to it! Yet a part of the community acted as if she had just insulted all of their mothers. Justified? > > > > > > **Tldr:** > > > Through her impulsive tweets she had a big part in escalating the whole situation, more so, she was a main driving force with reddit being another. And seemingly she still doesn't admit to her share of the guilt, at least not to the full extent of it - she didn't just speak out only once but kept pushing it. She misjudged the situation and was stubborn to not yield when she still had the chance! However, I don't think she has the whole responsibility. The reddit community can't exactly be described as "innocent bystanders". > > > In any case I don't regard her as the "passive aggressive waste of a person" a big part of the community does. Many in the community embraced the idea, though, and partook in a crusade to get her fired. She didn't deserve that. Her's weren't "attacks on the community", her conviction was that she was calling out a brazenly macho and ridiculing abusive trolls. > > > The way I see it, all of this wasn't but a really unfortunate misunderstanding between two respectable people on the internet that was inflated through publicity till it burst. But maybe I'm being naive. > > > > > > As for Peter being fired, there isn't much to talk about because in his case it's clear and simple: > > > It was an alarmingly unfair overreaction on MO's part. He worked at ArenaNet for 13 years! And all he did was trying to help out a colleague against an angry internet mob! I'm certain that in Germany his termination would be judicially revoked without much fuss. > > > > The problem is, to this day, she never apologized (to him) and is still pulling the gender card. > > And "comprehensible" is one thing (I don't agree that someone celebrating death is but whatever) but unprofessional is all that matters in this case. > > > > That + absolutely no self reflection or apology (to that person, she didn't even owe it to the community) is why she can't be defended. > > > > A know-it-all who can be never be wrong is not someone I could work with. Male or female. > > > > And calling MO "unprofessional" is just the piece on the cake. At least he's not being an hypocrite in his declarations, where she clearly is. > > She sure didn't do herself a favor with these recent comments. :/ Having lost her job and with all the fuss, I'm not sure if she really needs to apologize to Deroir, although she better should have for her own sake! > Maybe she shouldn't as a personal individual, but she should as a employee representing the company. If you want to appear as professional, that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > And that's where people are wrong. Those titles might have meant something remotely positive maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Today as far as I see it they're a massive red flag. And by that I mean that statistically speaking - you have very good odds of finding someone who's completely unreasonable label themselves as such. Better odds than finding a decent human being. > > Maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm biased but as far as I've seen it - it seems to be the case. I guess all the normal people are more quiet and don't need to make everything into their personal crusade? > > Yes, that does sound biased. My bias keeps me nice and safe. Bias and stereotype are defensive mechanisms - people have them in order to avoid things that are unpleasant. I don't really understand why they're seen as bad - when most of the times they are going to keep you safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nehezbegar.1065 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 There should be no place for hate speech.... :smiley: On the serious note, this person, by having a clear statement on her bio, that she is the ArenaNet dev, was representing the ArenaNet on the social media if she likes it or not. If she wanted this to be her private space (on social media hahahahaha), she shouldnt put that information there. Also the bullshit she spew about gender stuff etc., ridiculous. I very much approve the decision MO made in this situation and i definetly plan to buy some more gems to support it. I would understand if this guy said something in bad tone or attacked her, but he was even overly polite in this situation, which gave her reason to attack him. Also she is not a specia snowflake, i guess most of women dev dont give a shit about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUndefined.1720 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I just wanted to jump in here once again to show support for the professionalism of O'Brien. I haven't been to these gaming websites in years, so my discontinued future support wouldn't amount to much lol. However, the response was eloquent and very well put in response to Jessica's dialogue. Keep up the great work, and God bless :) P.S. this argument about this firing giving power to the fans is interesting. If you look on it through a different angle, the community would (and be right in doing so) point out that by NOT firing these devs, then the company has given power to very toxic employees who are right in using a public forum as a personal fan basher that wants no relationship with their fans. In either case, keep up the good work O'Brien and ANet :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nehezbegar.1065 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"TheUndefined.1720" said: > I just wanted to jump in here once again to show support for the professionalism of O'Brien. I haven't been to these gaming websites in years, so my discontinued future support wouldn't amount to much lol. However, the response was eloquent and very well put in response to Jessica's dialogue. Keep up the great work, and God bless :) > > P.S. this argument about this firing giving power to the fans is interesting. If you look on it through a different angle, the community would (and be right in doing so) point out that by NOT firing these devs, then the company has given power to very toxic employees who are right in using a public forum as a personal fan basher that wants no relationship with their fans. > > In either case, keep up the good work O'Brien and ANet :) In the end of the day, community, customers, are the ones who pays the bills for the game developers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUndefined.1720 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"crosknight.3041" said: > and now the shill media is working overtime to vilify us while propping up price on a pedestal because she played the victim card (and continues playing it) and wont take any accountability for her being fired. all while ignoring that Fries was fired too. > it's like they are trying to create another pushback against game journalism ethics. surprisingly though at least game informer seemed pretty non-bias about the whole thing. In all honesty, the best way to respond to negativity is with positivity. Get on and play GW2. If you see something in their store and have a bit of extra cash on hand, buy it. Come here and foster a supportive and positive community. In the end, that's what this community has been to many players. The more we attack, the more we are like her. Let's turn the other cheek here and do what we can to support this company in a positive way :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I kinda liked her take on this ****storm ("rant" starts from ~2:00): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomes.5643 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"ViolentMuffin.9573" said: > I've read a bit of stuff from the both sides of the barricade, the one defending price, and the one defending Deroir and I'm honestly not sure who is right here. But I'd like to say that I feel that firing Price and Fries is a decision too severe for an Internet squabble. ArenaNet isn't afraid of admitting and communicating that their releases will be postponed, or of the changes they make to the game, so I don't see why O'Brien couldn't just just communicate to the public that "we acknowledge that something bad happened, but we need time to think about it and discuss the issue with the parties involved (as much as it is possible)." Especially that there are (were?) people's careers at stake. I'm sad that ANet seems to act like any stereotypical, soulless corporation, and not like company which tries to support diversity, empathy, and friendship. I hope that people responsible and involved in the decision of firing Price and Fries find this decision to be made too hastily and regret it. So publicy celebrating when another human beeing has died from cancer is now "supporting diversity, empathy and friendship"? Fact is that the person in question has a history of really hateful twitter comments and the reason why there were no consequences for her actions - I think - is that this got never the attention of the higher ups. But with this outcry all these old stories were brought back into light and left MO no choice then act swift and hard .... otherwise they would have saying that they are cool with their developers rejoicing the death of another person. Which btw is also contracting the whole "I only got fired, because I am a women"-Story JP tries to construct. Because their were another dev from EA fired for his reactions to TotalBiscuits Death and I think she would have suffered the same fate if here tweets would have brought to the public attention back then. But that is just my assumption. The person which I think was threated unfairly is Peter Fries. He only wanted to help a fellow dev and wasnt really rude. But - as I mentioned before - I think the reason for his demise is that MO was really afraid about beeing pictured as sexist or even getting sued if he only fired the women and let the men be. But on the other side that is now also the case ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoguard.7942 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Rococo.8347" said: > > > > > > > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > > > > > > > > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest looking into more of the Twitter feeds regarding people outside the initial interaction, and it will give you a brief glimpse into the life of female game developers. The amount of blatantly sexist remarks being made by individuals reveals what these devs deal with constantly and often don't tell us. You don't need access to archives of psychological research to tell that it takes an impact, and this was apparently the breaking point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure she could have handled it better. And sure devs get toxic remarks in general. But female game devs definitely get their unfair share of toxic backlash, and oftentimes the criticism is purely based on sex and not even the work they do. As a result, this has really opened up a can of worms that ANet can't close now. All we can hope for is a more established response in the coming days better detailing their thoughts and plans moving forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what's bothering me immensely, I may not agree with how she conveyed herself and would have been shocked if I had been on the receiving end myself, but the one blind spot even people like WP seem to have in all of this is that there is some aspects of sexism in this, many many comments on reddit ( and here) over that 24 hours were casually or blatantly sexist, some dodgy subs that dont give a fig about GW2 took interest and joined in, and frankly the reddit community appeared to accept them in. And now they are all crying that games journo's are claiming there was a hunt when there wasn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > There was a witch hunt and the reddit community fanned the flames - no matter how biased their reporting, there is no way this should have got the amount of heat that it did, the biggest outrage in the community for 7 years is some dev having a pop at a content maker - really?? > > > > > > > > > > > > And if we are going to talk about a blatant disregard for the fact that sexism does exist in gaming ( and everywhere else) even WP makes a breast joke about clearly being a woman because he has to take heat from commentators sometimes, as if the occasional grief he gets is the same as the death threats and kitten threats, to say nothing of the second guessing etc they have to put up with, as if GG was a completely baseless. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just because the original comment from Deroir was likely not based in sexism doesn't mean that this whole clusterkitten is squeaky clean. > > > > > > > > > > All of this is after the initial exchange though. Please also realize that this is one of the first stories about GW2 which has gone mainstream in years. There is a ton of youtubers which are way bigger than WP who have covered this story. The heavily biased Kotaku and Polygon articles (interesting how the mainstream media diverges so much from a majority of the youtube content creators) will not have helped either. That is not so say that the first hour trolls did not have their feast. > > > > > > > > > > Please also do not lump together honest fans with trolls. The responses from JP were always addressed towards actual fans. She was the one who brought in the entire sexism issue (needlessly if one might add) and she was the one to use terminology as "mansplaining and rando kittten". > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rococo.8347" said: > > > > > > There was a witch hunt and the reddit community fanned the flames - no matter how biased their reporting, there is no way this should have got the amount of heat that it did, the biggest outrage in the community for 7 years is some dev having a pop at a content maker - really?? > > > > > > > > > > If it makes the mainstream, having a developer mistreat a client is big news. There is no sugar coating this no matter how much you point at the big bad work environment which is so unfair to women. That's like all those excuses made when once again an innocent black man gets shot in the US by police. "Oh but we had to go by previous experiences and he was acting suspicious ." Treat every encounter as it's own and stop making excuses. Everything else is unprofessional. > > > > > > > > > > Just like JPs tweet about TB was of not that big an issue. Once pushed into the spotlight it became an issue. > > > > > > > > I think that is something a lot of people forget in the heat of the moment. Most of the fans are better than this. As people call it in politics, "the silent majority." It's a shame to see a tiny group of vocal players with nasty opinions try and take advantage of this. I am currently not a fan of her Twitter feed after having seen some of her tweets, and I find it quite disappointing she was extremely hostile in this scenario. But the result of this fiasco has had a ripple effect in the industry that has to be addressed, ironically worsening the problem she was so opposed to. > > > > > > I really fail to see which problem is ‘getting worse’ though. There have always been kittens on the internet... And now there are still kittens on the internet... So... Nothing has changed? > > > > > > And if we’re talking about a ‘precedent’ of people getting fired for bad PR, that was set many years ago. Again, no change. > > > > Mostly just those people harassing female developers with a renewed vigor. It's less "more people" and just "same people harassing more." Which no one wants to hear them any more than we have to I think. > > This of course you can back up with some solid proof.. and I am not talking out those gamerjourno, 1 sided rags. I mean actual hard facts with proven legally fireproof backing. Otherwise it's just you touting heresay and conjecture like soo many others. > If a dev, male or female speaks out and projects the same way JP and to lesser extent PF did when there was no cause to do so, I think any company with a shred of ethics and decency would of done the same thing to protect the company image, their customers and their employees from being subjected to further unwarranted, unsubstantiated outbursts. Yes it's a real problem , no one is denying that and not just in the gaming industry and thankfully it can be addressed through the proper channels in a much more professional and dignified way than what we have had to sit here and witness for ourselves. > As I have said previous.. coming out and acting in an unhinged, abhorrent way then just throwing out an unwarranted gender card for effect is likely a well rehearsed defence mechanism because they are unable to hold reasonable dialogue around the smallest of critique from anyone, but because all of a sudden it was from a man, it must be sexism against a female dev right.. wrong its called reasonable attempt at meaningful dialogue to discuss and debate a small disagreement or differing opinion" regarding something the person thought was cool to put out for the general public to read. > I know, lets take the youtube video of deroir praising JP ..you know the one he shot only day before calling out JP for her stellar work and an AMA god, then lets superimpose a female anatomy and a differing voice to fit.. then lets play the video back... Now post deroirs post to JP again and let the dice fall.. will the response be the same, because it should, because there was nothing gender related in his exchange to her. But after apologising and removing himself/herself from JP's ensuing twitter rage.. what card would she spring now.. surely the gender card wont work cos ya know, its a woman offering differing opinion and attempting to converse respectfully …. so would it now be about race or colour or the colour of their eyes or maybe the fact the poster isn't English speaking by nature..... > NO, bottom line is there was nothing deroir did to warrant such an attack and there was nothing remotely gender related in anything he said.. it was all on JP and just an angled narrative to insult and silence anyone that dared offer any form of critique to her, anyone... but it backfired and her actions met with consequence. > What followed was disgraceful and for all those groups who set about fighting actual cases of sexism in any workplace, this only served to make their fight a little more difficult .. I would like to think that some, if not all such individuals and groups, would distance themselves from such a person and not want that person anywhere near there cause, because she appears to have an uncanny knack of letting her own ideologies turn her into the very thing they are fighting to out in the first place imo. I apologize if I came across as saying her response wasn't excessive and unwarranted. And I definitely believe she has done more harm than good acting in an ill-thought out manner. I simply meant that it is moments like these where the people who are targeting female developers crawl out of the woodworks to paint all female devs in the same brush as Price, which as you mentioned, has only resulted in making the fight a little more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Gomes.5643" said: > The hate that will not go away is when allow your employee to publically celebrating another humans death, insulting fans for poletly asking you questions and branding Youtube-Partners as "sexist" because they have slightly disagreed with you. Because this employee will continue to do so. Well it probably will since a lot of articles on the net are chopping these things off and prefer blaming the company. How can you not enjoy this modern era where facts don't even matter anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomes.5643 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 ..... and when I thought I was the first to answer a new post ..... just to notice that 3 others have answered before me .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The more Price comments in interviews, the more she strikes me as someone who seems incapable of taking responsibility for her actions. The innocent attempt from Deroir at engaging in discussion did not warrant the rude retorts from Price that followed. The simple truth is she unjustifiably blew up on someone - Price herself admitted in an interview following her firing that Deroir's comment was "the straw" that broke the proverbial's camel's back. I take that to mean she was simply ready to lash out at someone, and this poor fellow provided Price with an opportunity to do just that. Deroir simply offered a polite opinion - that's not an invitation for Price to unload all the bitterness she'd been building up. Price's Twitter comments show she is more than willing to engage with someone who compliments her, but she seems to respond very poorly to anyone who offers a differing opinion. That's not a gender issue, it's an attitude problem. Yet Price is doing her darndest to turn this into a gender issue because that's apparently preferable to self-examining her flawed behavior. And select media sites like Polygon are just making this worse by misrepresenting the events in the same manner Price has been doing. The sad truth is both Price and select media sites are now doing more harm to the causes Price claims to champion than anything Deroir or ArenaNet have done during this fiasco. Price is the one using the gender card as a shield to move attention away from the fact that she's simply extremely rude and handled all of this very poorly. It's not my place to say who deserved to be fired, or if anyone did. I will say that I would have been pretty disappointed if ArenaNet had endorsed Price's unacceptable behavior. Her Twitter profile is set to be public, and Price actively advertised her ties to ArenaNet on that profile - all choices she made. Price's argument is that she was assured during her hiring process that she could freely speak on issues that were important to her. And that's great, but it is not a blank check to act like a jerk. It's a shame that some are choosing to take this out on ArenaNet, because denouncing Price's behavior was one of the few correct moves that were made in this entire exchange. And, unlike Price, ArenaNet did not choose to start this entire incident - they were dragged into it through no fault of their own. Price's recent interviews read more like a selfish attempt to mask her costly mistake by burning ArenaNet down in her wake, and if I were one of the employees still working there - who Price claims to care about - I would be understandably annoyed by the dangerous game she is playing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Burden.9724" said: > > > It's really that simple. When JP puts Arenanet in her profile, talks about her work at Arenanet, participates in Arenanet functions, and received feedback about GW2 and her conduct in it, she's representing Arenanet. I mean, if she had no indication in her social media that she worked there _and then_ somebody else doxxed her and revealed that she worked at Anet, you would have a case for the segregation between personal and corporate communication. But that is not what happened. > > I agree wit this little statement. It's the same with Rosanne, she went to Twitter, said some stuff that the ABC Group didn't like, so they fired her. Also, because of this incident I have deleted my Facebook account. I won't want to be seen saying something that others might fight offensive, or drive away clients. This situation has just made posters of social media accountable for their actions. > Are you saying people where not accountable for their actions before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dealdrick.9701 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > Mo Just wanted to say thank you for this post. ArenaNet was placed in a precarious position and has handled it with class. You have officially earned my respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > I care. This will pass when the next big problem occurs. As a customer, why don't you feel welcome as a woman???? I am a woman and I feel comfortable. > > > > If it makes you feel better, while I feel Jessica went over the line and deserved firing, I do not feel that way about Peter. He defended a coworker..probably had one too many Fourth of july beers in him to recognize exactly what it was his coworker was actually saying..he just defended a coworker who he perceived as being picked on. I would not be outraged if they brought back Peter. He did not say anything bad to the streamer in question, just defended Jessica in a show of maybe drunken misplaced loyalty. > > > > That's my story and I am sticking to it :) > > > > Lisa. > > > > I think many in the community will agree with this. > And as you wrote after this, maybe JP was tipsy/drunk too, but she is still very publicly 'throwing mud' at MO and the company and there is no excuse for that. I think that shows well what kind of person she is and how much she really cares about her ex-coworkers and the GW2 community. It called doubling down.. its what people do when they just can't bare to say.. o cr.p I feckled up .. again, only this this time it got a long serving co-worker fired too... guessing JP takes that as a win with a trophy. I just hope those groups that are actually doing good work in fighting the many real issues JP believes she stands for , distance her like a really bad smell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > At least part of your statement is correct, MO and ArenaNet will look bad and it will cause players to leave the game...perhaps not as many as if he had kept probably the two best writers on the team, but still, people will leave, because in the end. An employer should always have their employees back in a dispute with a customer...always, that is a fundamental tenet of being a good leader(whether that's from a Lead all the way up to a CEO, you should always have your employees backs). > > IF you read MOs reply here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/594568/#Comment_594568 you will find this: > > In this case, however, our employees could have chosen not to engage, and they could have brought the issue to the company, whereby we would have done everything we could to protect them. > > We won’t tolerate harassment. When an employee feels harassed, we want them to bring the issue to us, so that we can protect the employee, deal with the issue, and use it to speak to the larger issue of harassment. > They would've protected them, if they did not escalate the situation beyond saving. They would've protected them if they did not take matters into their own hands and continue harassing their customers, repeatedly. MO can say anything about protecting his employees all he wants, but the truth is would they actually do it, and exactly what can they do to someone that's not in this country. Oh, they can pull his partner status and ban his accounts, but would that solve anything? Not at all, and I have this huge problem with the whole following the chain of command when dealing with either internal problems or external problems. In my opinion the first part of that chain of command is having the two parties involved hash it out amongst themselves, then if they can't resolve their differences you can start escalating starting with frontline supervisors and moving up the chain until you find a level that can solve the problem...and that goes for everything from sexual harrassment/misconduct all the way to bullying. As for the the TotalBiscuit comment, really all she said was, to paraphrase, that now he's no longer around to cause harm to anyone else. Do we want to deny that he caused harm to a lot of people? Because if you want to deny he did, then you've been living under a rock buried deep beneath the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrbitalButt.5708 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Didn't she once make a big post condemning gatekeeping and saying that you shouldn't have to be a professional to question one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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