Why min-maxing DPS is wasting time!

[Draco.9480]

what is mechanics? you just take strongest dps, cheese the encounter, what's the problem? you know who fail a lot more? people with low dps cuz they don't know how to play their class so they don't know how to handle the encounter and get pressured by the boss for longer duration. people that do high dps won't fail mechanics cuz they know their class, the encounter and how to combine it with the encounter. I do high dps without wipes unless some clown decides to wipe the raid and do it on purpose or he's a leecher who has no idea what he's doing. besides, there's not much you do as a dps in raid boss.

[Galactic.6453]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

>

> False and False

>

 

People who range bosses that don't need to be make the fight more difficult for everyone because.

1. Bosses start aggroing them and running around the battlefield, reducing the damage of everyone else and putting them in danger of aoe fields and causing all around chaos

2. They don't get boons or heals because they're standing so far away so you just end up with some downed guy standing at long range from the boss because he didn't get healed.

 

Most of the time it's just better to stand face to face to the boss even if your health is low and you risk dying because others can just F you up instantly rather than panicking and running off where no one can get you.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > Uh ... what you described is exactly why a DPS meter is useful.

> > >

> > > It's a great way to show whether or not you are capable of handling that build.

> >

> > hah nope, you can find meta builds on the web very easily.

> > just because you have a theoretical DPS build doesn't mean you know how to use it, i don't use a meta build yet survive allot more encounters then most because i am skilled enough to use the build properly.

>

> Actually a DPS meter is exactly useful for comparison.

>

> It will allow to compare how you on your unique build will perform versus someone who runs a meta build. If the person runs who runs the meta build performs poorly, he is worse at playing that build (which might have a higher skill ceiling than yours or not).

>

> If the person running the meta build outperforms you, it means they have mastered their meta build far enough to perform better than you on your unique build. Again, build difficulty can factor in but the net result will be displayed by the DPS meter.

>

> Notice please that DPS meters are a tool for comparison. The fact that people can or can not play a meta build has no bearing on the usefulness of a DPS meter.

>

> What you are complaining about is people who try to copy an optimized build while lacking the skill to do so. That is a completely separate issue from DPS meters or meta builds. I guarantee you, a person who is capable to run his class in encounters with the meta build will outperform you 90% of the time (giving you the 10% because who knows, maybe your build is actually better).

 

my build isn't better or anything, it's just that DPS can only go so far.

try to kill when you can't even hit anything, when all you do is strike air and conditions consume you faster then your DPS has any merit.

DPS is good when you hit 100% and 100% of that DPS is used against the enemy, one good KB or KD and you're toast, some even attack with heavy (or killer) dmg no DPS build can withstand.

 

i just like to focus on survivability while killing fast enough, the 2 extra hits are nothing compared to the AOE i can put out i can guarantee that.

[Galactic.6453]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> my build isn't better or anything, it's just that DPS can only go so far.

> try to kill when you can't even hit anything, when all you do is strike air and conditions consume you faster then your DPS has any merit.

> DPS is good when you hit 100% and 100% of that DPS is used against the enemy, one good KB or KD and you're toast, some even attack with heavy (or killer) dmg no DPS build can withstand.

>

> i just like to focus on survivability while killing fast enough, the 2 extra hits are nothing compared to the AOE i can put out i can guarantee that.

 

But how can you tell you're doing just about much dps as the meta build without having a meter? What is fast enough? Maybe you're doing 90% of the damage in comparison or maybe just 50%. I understand swapping some utility skills that help me survive cause I do that too but if I go and run soldiers gear because I get panicked otherwise it helps no one. But if you've actually benched your output in instances and you play better with your build then more power to you.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Galactic.6453" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> >

> > False and False

> >

>

> People who range bosses that don't need to be make the fight more difficult for everyone because.

> 1. Bosses start aggroing them and running around the battlefield, reducing the damage of everyone else and putting them in danger of aoe fields and causing all around chaos

> 2. They don't get boons or heals because they're standing so far away so you just end up with some downed guy standing at long range from the boss because he didn't get healed.

>

> Most of the time it's just better to stand face to face to the boss even if your health is low and you risk dying because others can just F you up instantly rather than panicking and running off where no one can get you.

 

1.People run mainly because of the mechanics of the game, which are probably 99% of time. And if you do less dmg and are far away, agro will not follow most of the time.

2.For buffs you must be support and focus on supporting . Which further supports my claim that going all out for DPS is suicide.

3.Not in Raids, especially when you MUST split.

[Decado.9304]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Or you can get good and not die while topping the meters.

>

> The solution to this thread. In fractals (not pugging raids), I have seen so many people who must have played some defensive lol build, since they did a lot less damage then a proper build just autoattacking, and still went down over and over again. The most annoying thing about those wannabe tanky people: not only do they make fights last longer, they also make them more difficult for people who play properly. So the solution is not going more tanky, it's three letters: l2p.

 

^This, I'm pretty new to PvE and playing through it with Warrior (also new to) and to begin with i was just using my guards Marauder/Durability setup and fights took a while because I got stuck on the whole not dying pish and my DPS was poor. A week later I changed to a better more offensive build and full zerk/spellbreaker gear and I die a whole shitload less, fights are quicker and more importantly i'm learning about how to play the class properly. So yeah its more of a L2p issue. My deeps is still well below benchmarks but hey, i'm getting better and big numbers are nice :)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> To have a Top DPS one must be willing to test it on a dummy. But what about when you need to move and run, a Top DPS in rea life scenario means you will put yourself most of the time in danger leading to a wipe especialy when you have sacrificed durability. On a paprer you did more Dmg BUT on a succesfull run, because people compare DPS when the run is finished. But how many of the tries did they fail befor the finish line. People blindly follow numbers like sheep, but 90% of the time they dont use them practicaly. The key must be Overal Time not DPS. You can kill the boss with Bigger DPS faster but it may cost you 5 or 7 tries. As a lower DPS more steady it may take you 3 or 5 tries. So in general having a bigger dps when it cost you more Overal time is pointless and only sheeps are willing to follow this path.

 

It doesn't matter if you measure overall time or DPS, the result will be exactly the same. Why? Because the boss HP is a constant and when you divide it by "overall time" you get "group DPS".

 

Now, running an actual DPS meter is beneficial *precisely* because of the points you raise. It gives you a measure of your (and others') performance in the real fight, where you had to pick your position, deal with mechanics, etc. As opposed to the golem benchmark which gives you theoretical performance under perfect conditions.

 

The cases where your group actually wipe are trickier, but striving to improve your personal performance is still strictly positive. The difference in DPS can be quite dramatic, sometimes up to 2-3x between a practiced player and a casual one. This much more damage can easily make the difference between having to deal with more mechanics or phasing the boss. The latter is VERY much safer and leads to much less wipes.

[Warcry.1596]

> @"infrequentia.3465" said:

> the point of this is?

>

> toughness is useless as a dps slot wich is what you take when doing dps

> vit while handy doesn't make you tankier

>

> killing faster means having to endure less hits, less heals needed

>

> and you should always learn your class dps meter show where you can improve . higher dps ( top dps) just means you masterd your class while having low dps means you need to learn alot .

 

Not always. Some people don't care about dealing high DPS. Even as a raider, I tell my groups to never put huge emphasis on it. While it IS important, the necessary DPS needed to complete encounters is no where close to requiring a perfect "rotation". I care more about people learning fights than maxing DPS. Works just fine for every raid.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Decado.9304" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Or you can get good and not die while topping the meters.

> >

> > The solution to this thread. In fractals (not pugging raids), I have seen so many people who must have played some defensive lol build, since they did a lot less damage then a proper build just autoattacking, and still went down over and over again. The most annoying thing about those wannabe tanky people: not only do they make fights last longer, they also make them more difficult for people who play properly. So the solution is not going more tanky, it's three letters: l2p.

>

> ^This, I'm pretty new to PvE and playing through it with Warrior (also new to) and to begin with i was just using my guards Marauder/Durability setup and fights took a while because I got stuck on the whole not dying pish and my DPS was poor. A week later I changed to a better more offensive build and full zerk/spellbreaker gear and I die a whole shitload less, fights are quicker and more importantly i'm learning about how to play the class properly. So yeah its more of a L2p issue. My deeps is still well below benchmarks but hey, i'm getting better and big numbers are nice :)

 

The main builds are either support or Dps in this game. Most people forget that GW2 is not a traditional MMO game with the holy trinity. The focus in other MMO's is Tank to negate damage and a Healer for support so the DPS can purely focus on the damage. No need to be careful because there are Babysitters for them thus the great DPS race had begun. Unfortunately here is not the case, because the game is unique, but people still refuse to adapt and they continue to play it like any other mmo.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Mistakes in your assumption TC:

>

> 1. believing defensive stats make a huge difference in survivability to actually matter. A big fraction of raid and fractal boss attacks completely ignore stats and simply kill you

> 2. believing that in a game which is designed around active mitigation, passive mitigation is required

> 3. believing that the skill ceiling is to high to reach for good play to avoide relevant damage without relying om passive defensive stats. It is only if you arr unwilling to spend a minimum amount of time on practice

> 4. not taking synergies in group compositions into account. There is a reason why elementalists for example can free cast way easier without needing to move if provoded quiclness, alacrity, aegis, stability and protection. Who would have thought

> 5. reducing the time for the group to being exlosed to a bosses attacks will cut down the errors drastically. There is way less room for error if your fight with the boss takes 30% less time

> 6. Not realizing that meta damage builds are designed with boss patterns in mind. The reason most builds remain similar is BECAUSE you can focus on pure damage for the damage builds while your support builds do all the relevant other work. That's why you see more variation and build changes for the support builds

>

> All in all, you come along as talking about content you yourself have none or very limited experience in. Instead of calling other people sheep, you might want to actually gain some first hand experience and then draw conclusions.

 

First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

 

And as a final note don't write about things that i have not stated, because you mislead people!

[Sinful.2165]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

 

In a group setting at high end PvE where people run optimized builds for DPS there is also a healer who keeps those DPS topped off. Your ‘effective DPS’ does not increase by sacrificing damage for survivability.

 

Knowing the mechanics and not getting hit by dodging big hits is what increases your odds of success, not extending the fight for a few hundred more toughness and vitality which does not help your team at all.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> > Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> > And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

>

> In a group setting at high end PvE where people run optimized builds for DPS there is also a healer who keeps those DPS topped off. Your ‘effective DPS’ does not increase by sacrificing damage for survivability.

>

> Knowing the mechanics and not getting hit by dodging big hits is what increases your odds of success, not extending the fight for a few hundred more toughness and vitality which does not help your team at all.

 

Why are you talking about vitality and toughness when i stated as example utility skills and defensive weapons? Why people bring vitality and toughness in this post is beyond me especially when there are more important factors.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Mistakes in your assumption TC:

> >

> > 1. believing defensive stats make a huge difference in survivability to actually matter. A big fraction of raid and fractal boss attacks completely ignore stats and simply kill you

> > 2. believing that in a game which is designed around active mitigation, passive mitigation is required

> > 3. believing that the skill ceiling is to high to reach for good play to avoide relevant damage without relying om passive defensive stats. It is only if you arr unwilling to spend a minimum amount of time on practice

> > 4. not taking synergies in group compositions into account. There is a reason why elementalists for example can free cast way easier without needing to move if provoded quiclness, alacrity, aegis, stability and protection. Who would have thought

> > 5. reducing the time for the group to being exlosed to a bosses attacks will cut down the errors drastically. There is way less room for error if your fight with the boss takes 30% less time

> > 6. Not realizing that meta damage builds are designed with boss patterns in mind. The reason most builds remain similar is BECAUSE you can focus on pure damage for the damage builds while your support builds do all the relevant other work. That's why you see more variation and build changes for the support builds

> >

> > All in all, you come along as talking about content you yourself have none or very limited experience in. Instead of calling other people sheep, you might want to actually gain some first hand experience and then draw conclusions.

>

> First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

>

> And as a final note don't write about things that i have not stated, because you mislead people!

 

It's toughness or defence, not durability. Unless you are refering to the Superior Rune of Durability.

 

All defensive needs are covered by support classes in meta builds so no, personal defensive skills are most of the time not needed (actually not ever) . If they are, like say as black kiter or hand kiter at Deimos, the meta accounts for that.

 

Distance to bosses is insignificant when:

A. Boss attacks cover the entire area

B. support classes require players to stack to gain benefits from boon stacking

C. there is limited space to maneuver and players are forced into melee range by boss mechanics (like at Xera)

 

All of this is where a DPS meter is quite useful in analysing and seeing how each member has performed. That's how meta compositions are created after golem dps optimization.

 

Repeatedly calling people sheep when you do not account for such basic things does not make you look smarter or any more correct.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> > > Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> > > And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

> >

> > In a group setting at high end PvE where people run optimized builds for DPS there is also a healer who keeps those DPS topped off. Your ‘effective DPS’ does not increase by sacrificing damage for survivability.

> >

> > Knowing the mechanics and not getting hit by dodging big hits is what increases your odds of success, not extending the fight for a few hundred more toughness and vitality which does not help your team at all.

>

> Why are you talking about vitality and toughness when i stated as example utility skills and defensive weapons? Why people bring vitality and toughness in this post is beyond me especially when there are more important factors.

 

I think by now nobody really knows what exactly you are talking about anymore. Outside of raid specific team builds, even most metabattle builds feature defenses, stun breaks, cleanses. Or differently worded, you can perfectly fit defensive capabilities on any DPS build. As you state to be misunderstood quite a lot, would you be so kind as to explain what are you are really on about?

[Solori.6025]

Yea the op isn't to clear and comes of as the ramblings of someone who got kicked from a pug group.

What class are you using? What pve content are you referring to? Fractals? Raids?

You running condi? Power?

 

[Vino.7923]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> Yea the op isn't to clear and comes of as the ramblings of someone who got kicked from a pug group.

> What class are you using? What pve content are you referring to? Fractals? Raids?

> You running condi? Power?

>

 

Actually it is the opposite. After 5 tries of bunker over heal with focus on dps and sticking together i changed the strategy so we can do it as intended. Dodging and not staying like sitting duck. So after 2 tries we did it with the new strategy. But people still wanted to bunker with the optimal dps even after 5 times it failed the same way.

[zombyturtle.5980]

You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

 

Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

 

Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Mistakes in your assumption TC:

> > >

> > > 1. believing defensive stats make a huge difference in survivability to actually matter. A big fraction of raid and fractal boss attacks completely ignore stats and simply kill you

> > > 2. believing that in a game which is designed around active mitigation, passive mitigation is required

> > > 3. believing that the skill ceiling is to high to reach for good play to avoide relevant damage without relying om passive defensive stats. It is only if you arr unwilling to spend a minimum amount of time on practice

> > > 4. not taking synergies in group compositions into account. There is a reason why elementalists for example can free cast way easier without needing to move if provoded quiclness, alacrity, aegis, stability and protection. Who would have thought

> > > 5. reducing the time for the group to being exlosed to a bosses attacks will cut down the errors drastically. There is way less room for error if your fight with the boss takes 30% less time

> > > 6. Not realizing that meta damage builds are designed with boss patterns in mind. The reason most builds remain similar is BECAUSE you can focus on pure damage for the damage builds while your support builds do all the relevant other work. That's why you see more variation and build changes for the support builds

> > >

> > > All in all, you come along as talking about content you yourself have none or very limited experience in. Instead of calling other people sheep, you might want to actually gain some first hand experience and then draw conclusions.

> >

> > First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> > Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> > And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

> >

> > And as a final note don't write about things that i have not stated, because you mislead people!

>

> It's toughness or defence, not durability. Unless you are refering to the Superior Rune of Durability.

>

> All defensive needs are covered by support classes in meta builds so no, personal defensive skills are most of the time not needed (actually not ever) . If they are, like say as black kiter or hand kiter at Deimos, the meta accounts for that.

>

> Distance to bosses is insignificant when:

> A. Boss attacks cover the entire area

> B. support classes require players to stack to gain benefits from boon stacking

> C. there is limited space to maneuver and players are forced into melee range by boss mechanics (like at Xera)

>

> All of this is where a DPS meter is quite useful in analysing and seeing how each member has performed. That's how meta compositions are created after golem dps optimization.

>

> Repeatedly calling people sheep when you do not account for such basic things does not make you look smarter or any more correct.

 

Open wiki and type Durability. Then tell me what does it say. Yes when i say Durability i mean the definition of the world durability.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > Mistakes in your assumption TC:

> > > >

> > > > 1. believing defensive stats make a huge difference in survivability to actually matter. A big fraction of raid and fractal boss attacks completely ignore stats and simply kill you

> > > > 2. believing that in a game which is designed around active mitigation, passive mitigation is required

> > > > 3. believing that the skill ceiling is to high to reach for good play to avoide relevant damage without relying om passive defensive stats. It is only if you arr unwilling to spend a minimum amount of time on practice

> > > > 4. not taking synergies in group compositions into account. There is a reason why elementalists for example can free cast way easier without needing to move if provoded quiclness, alacrity, aegis, stability and protection. Who would have thought

> > > > 5. reducing the time for the group to being exlosed to a bosses attacks will cut down the errors drastically. There is way less room for error if your fight with the boss takes 30% less time

> > > > 6. Not realizing that meta damage builds are designed with boss patterns in mind. The reason most builds remain similar is BECAUSE you can focus on pure damage for the damage builds while your support builds do all the relevant other work. That's why you see more variation and build changes for the support builds

> > > >

> > > > All in all, you come along as talking about content you yourself have none or very limited experience in. Instead of calling other people sheep, you might want to actually gain some first hand experience and then draw conclusions.

> > >

> > > First of all Durability is not only the stats, but guess it is hard to think out of the box when you are a sheep or should i say fence (example utility skills and defensive weapons)

> > > Second i didn't say that it is useless 100% of the time, but i guess it is all the same to some people. Get it SOME People not ALL?

> > > And thirdly optimal DPS needs to be close range which means staying in danger leading to more potential wipe so to balance it you need support which in turns also must stay close to danger and depending of the synergy this will work but how often? The answer is clear NOT Often Enough.

> > >

> > > And as a final note don't write about things that i have not stated, because you mislead people!

> >

> > It's toughness or defence, not durability. Unless you are refering to the Superior Rune of Durability.

> >

> > All defensive needs are covered by support classes in meta builds so no, personal defensive skills are most of the time not needed (actually not ever) . If they are, like say as black kiter or hand kiter at Deimos, the meta accounts for that.

> >

> > Distance to bosses is insignificant when:

> > A. Boss attacks cover the entire area

> > B. support classes require players to stack to gain benefits from boon stacking

> > C. there is limited space to maneuver and players are forced into melee range by boss mechanics (like at Xera)

> >

> > All of this is where a DPS meter is quite useful in analysing and seeing how each member has performed. That's how meta compositions are created after golem dps optimization.

> >

> > Repeatedly calling people sheep when you do not account for such basic things does not make you look smarter or any more correct.

>

> Open wiki and type Durability. Then tell me what does it say. Yes when i say Durability i mean the definition of the world durability.

>

 

Maybe if you are arguing with people on a gaming forum use proper terminology. Especially when you are trying to uproot established tactics.

 

But yes, from a general language perspective durability would mean to increase your ability to withstand damage. This is in current meta builds:

 

A. not needed in raids on damage classes since support classes provide this (PVE)

B. not needed in high level fractals since support classes provide this (PVE)

C. in literally every WvW build which is serious (WVW)

D. of absolute no concern in open world pve (PVE)

 

So I'm still not sure which content you are now arguing about calling everyone else sheep.

[spiritualabyss.7016]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> To have a Top DPS one must be willing to test it on a dummy. But what about when you need to move and run, a Top DPS in real life scenario means you will put yourself most of the time in danger leading to a wipe especially when you have sacrificed durability. On a paper you did more damage BUT on a successful run, because people compare DPS when the run is finished. But how many of the tries did they fail before the finish line. People blindly follow numbers like sheep's, but 90% of the time they don't use them practically. The key must be Overall Time not DPS. You can kill the boss with Bigger DPS faster but it may cost you 5 or 7 tries. As a lower DPS more steady it may take you 3 or 5 tries. So in general having a bigger DPS when it cost you more Overall time is pointless and only sheep's are willing to follow this path.

 

Your sheep oviously lack skill.

 

If you have a team of good players in an organized composition, they will absolutely be able to use adapted variations of their practiced golem DPS-rotations, without dieing in the first place.

And I guarantee you that the clearing time of such a team will be a LOT faster, than a 5man comp with DPS builds that trade their damage for sustainability.

On a consistent basis.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > >

> > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > >

> > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> >

> > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

>

> so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

 

My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > > >

> > > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > > >

> > > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> > >

> > > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

> >

> > so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

>

> My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

 

I see, but is this really a DPS issue and not a bad player issue? I mean, we all know and love the break bar illiterate and things like that... and I highly doubt they are even traited or play for highest DPS either.

[Shikoba.6378]

My favorite pre-hot, was to let the meta die, then make them rage quit watching me solo the boss using proper tactics.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > Yea the op isn't to clear and comes of as the ramblings of someone who got kicked from a pug group.

> > What class are you using? What pve content are you referring to? Fractals? Raids?

> > You running condi? Power?

> >

>

> Actually it is the opposite. After 5 tries of bunker over heal with focus on dps and sticking together i changed the strategy so we can do it as intended. Dodging and not staying like sitting duck. So after 2 tries we did it with the new strategy. But people still wanted to bunker with the optimal dps even after 5 times it failed the same way.

 

.........

What?...

Wh...

OK....lets start over...

 

I'll restate the important parts so maybe it's clearer for you.

What. Class. Are. You. Using?

What. PVE. Content.Are.You.Referring.To?

 

[Vino.7923]

> @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> > > >

> > > > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

> > >

> > > so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

> >

> > My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

>

> I see, but is this really a DPS issue and not a bad player issue? I mean, we all know and love the break bar illiterate and things like that... and I highly doubt they are even traited or play for highest DPS either.

 

How can you distinguish bad player from good player if both of them follow the Numbers. Even if you explain what the issue is they will not listen because the facts show that they ranked higher and thus they will continue to do the same thing. That is why proposed that the value for success must be Overall time spend so you can take all other variables in consideration.