iKeostuKen.2738 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > Very well put. Would also like to add, "What is the counterplay?" Should be another factor. Is the risk for reward equal. > > > > > > Counterplay would require an entirely different skill design though. > > > > > > For example, I can imagine a lower cd WoD being a channeled stationary bunker down AoE. Similar to how the shield bubble on the guardian work. CC the sb enough and you break it, or if the sb move the channel stops. > > > > > > Unfortunetly, just like pretty much everything, its a fire and forget skill. Its no doubt pure chance Anet thought "should we make this 1200 range ground targetted? Nah probably not". > > > > It wouldnt need an entirely different design to gain counterplay. Just get rid of the projectile cancelation. Then it would allow allys and those who use projectiles to effectively get out safely or even have a fighting chance. > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, just no, nobody, i bet you everything my account has, would play warrior in a zerg if its only role would be to soak up dmg...and you know why ? because guard does that already and that waaay better than warrior, and why ? because guard ALSO while soaking dmg heals his group and grants boons like stability or resistance and protection to his group. a warrior who is just soaking dmg ? yea nah, useless. > > > and dont even bring the argument that warrior is doing oh so big crits to his enemies...sure he can hit alot, but has to go melee to do that, you know who also does very big crits ? revenant with hammer, and guess what, he can do that consistantly on 1200 range woth low cd skills. > > > no the warrior needs something unique to bring into wvw or he just gets dropped and ends up as another unwanted class in zergs, just like ranger/engi and thief (i know there are some special snowflakes out there who still play those classes and that well, but the truth is that they are widely unwanted in a zerg) > > > > Who cares if its wanted or unwanted in a zerg, i play an engineer and nothing stops me from following a blob leader around wheter im wanted or not. Its not a thing balance should be centered around, thats purely a community issue. If it didnt block projectiles, guess what, it would still be an effective elite. Hell one of the best in the game still. > > > > This> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus. > > > > Play any range focused build versus a zerg running multiple SBs, then come back and say its not overpowered. It doesnt matter what the state of projectiles are, the fact is the skill does to much for what it actually is, it doesnt require upkeep, it doesnt require risk, its reward is clearly bloated. > > you didnt say that you just wanted the projectile hate removed it sounded like you wanted the whole thing nerfed to the ground, so that the warrior is only good for soaking dmg, which would be bs, the projectile hate is the least thing why ppl use it, sure go ahead and remove that part of it, idc > and you are one of those snowflakes i was talking about, cool story bro, but getting kicked out of the squad because your class isnt wanted is not just a community issue, if they want to win and have better chances by taking the better classes into their squad it completely natural. and as a frontliner its almost impossible to survive without being in the squad, or atleast makes it waaaay harder then, which isnt fun either > seeing that you have problems with the projectiles it looks like you are playing ranged, which is alot easier without being in a squad Reread all my post. The target of what i feel needs to go for the skill is the projectile negation. Gonna disregard the rest of that post since it doesn't push the discussion forward in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. Scourges and firebrands are both a better meatshield. What makes you think warrior is a better damage sponge? Also there's no real value in "soaking" damage as it's RNG-spread over everyone who's stacked. There is a value to having more players stacked to split the spread of the damage further, but there is no value to a class being "very good at it". There is only a disadvantage to the classes which are "the worst at it" as they're your limiting factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > Very well put. Would also like to add, "What is the counterplay?" Should be another factor. Is the risk for reward equal. > > > > > > > > Counterplay would require an entirely different skill design though. > > > > > > > > For example, I can imagine a lower cd WoD being a channeled stationary bunker down AoE. Similar to how the shield bubble on the guardian work. CC the sb enough and you break it, or if the sb move the channel stops. > > > > > > > > Unfortunetly, just like pretty much everything, its a fire and forget skill. Its no doubt pure chance Anet thought "should we make this 1200 range ground targetted? Nah probably not". > > > > > > It wouldnt need an entirely different design to gain counterplay. Just get rid of the projectile cancelation. Then it would allow allys and those who use projectiles to effectively get out safely or even have a fighting chance. > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > > > > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, just no, nobody, i bet you everything my account has, would play warrior in a zerg if its only role would be to soak up dmg...and you know why ? because guard does that already and that waaay better than warrior, and why ? because guard ALSO while soaking dmg heals his group and grants boons like stability or resistance and protection to his group. a warrior who is just soaking dmg ? yea nah, useless. > > > > and dont even bring the argument that warrior is doing oh so big crits to his enemies...sure he can hit alot, but has to go melee to do that, you know who also does very big crits ? revenant with hammer, and guess what, he can do that consistantly on 1200 range woth low cd skills. > > > > no the warrior needs something unique to bring into wvw or he just gets dropped and ends up as another unwanted class in zergs, just like ranger/engi and thief (i know there are some special snowflakes out there who still play those classes and that well, but the truth is that they are widely unwanted in a zerg) > > > > > > Who cares if its wanted or unwanted in a zerg, i play an engineer and nothing stops me from following a blob leader around wheter im wanted or not. Its not a thing balance should be centered around, thats purely a community issue. If it didnt block projectiles, guess what, it would still be an effective elite. Hell one of the best in the game still. > > > > > > This> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > Sorry but anyone complaining about WoD needs to improve. Projectiles are HORRIBLE in zerg play anyway, so it's your fault for bringing them. You should be also looking out for Warriors about to pop WoD and focus CC them, or simply move off. Being static is a good way to get destroyed. Anyway, WoD only removes one boon per second, it's not even as powerful as people say - the true power is the "panic reaction" it creates, which makes people lose focus. > > > > > > Play any range focused build versus a zerg running multiple SBs, then come back and say its not overpowered. It doesnt matter what the state of projectiles are, the fact is the skill does to much for what it actually is, it doesnt require upkeep, it doesnt require risk, its reward is clearly bloated. > > > > you didnt say that you just wanted the projectile hate removed it sounded like you wanted the whole thing nerfed to the ground, so that the warrior is only good for soaking dmg, which would be bs, the projectile hate is the least thing why ppl use it, sure go ahead and remove that part of it, idc > > and you are one of those snowflakes i was talking about, cool story bro, but getting kicked out of the squad because your class isnt wanted is not just a community issue, if they want to win and have better chances by taking the better classes into their squad it completely natural. and as a frontliner its almost impossible to survive without being in the squad, or atleast makes it waaaay harder then, which isnt fun either > > seeing that you have problems with the projectiles it looks like you are playing ranged, which is alot easier without being in a squad > > Reread all my post. The target of what i feel needs to go for the skill is the projectile negation. > > Gonna disregard the rest of that post since it doesn't push the discussion forward in anyway. you can disregard it as much as you want, it doesnt mean that its not a factor on why certain skills cant be overnerfed. i agree that the projectile hate could be taken away, but you tried to give a reason why anyone should play without bubble (the soaking dmg nonsense) which made it sound like you want bubbles to be nerfed to a point where they become useless. but the bubble is literally the only thing why warrior is wanted in zergs, everything else can be done by other classes. so removing that would completely remove warrior from "competetive" play and push player who want to win to kick warri players from their squad also etheri is right, nobody is playing a class simply for soaking dmg, just like i said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Engi main dude; there is heal scrapper which is META in zergs and holosmith which is close to viable in zergs. Neither are fully negated by projectiles. You can literally go for a full support build or a very dps oriented build. Now I'll agree holo isn't on the same line as the meta specs, but it's pretty close at the moment. Heal scrapper is meta. Also it's hard to discuss balance with players who clearly say "I don't care about effectiveness". What's the point of discussing balance if you're not even interested in playing what works rather than what you demand to play? I think having 1 SB per party is much more than needed. Even for large blobs 5-8 warriors suffice. You only need 1 per party if half of them are the "yolo 3k range ahead, drop WoD and die" type. > @"freecarl.1320" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > The "projectile hate" is such a meme. There is barely any projectile hate in meta builds > > > > You mean meta firebrand which can almost perma reflect? Or are you playing in a different universe than the rest of us? > > I weep for the necros stuck in a party/squad where guards are only reflecting while in courage > Ah yes, because a blob with 5+ WoD won't have enough guards to keep reflects up? I mean, when i'm playing firebrand dropping 2-3 reflects per courage doesn't prevent me from dropping 2x resi fields and giving stab. I guess I should just use 5 4 and then 1111111 through the tome? ;) FB has much more reflect uptime than warrior, and it's reflect. They just gotta ... use it. >Ofc I want it in my favor, I want better balance in the game. WoD is not good by design for PvP. > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > Definitely needs to be nerfed, currently the strongest elite skill in WvW > > > > > > Need a little more than that... > > > > > > So.. we nerf it, then some other elite skill becomes the 'strongest in WvW'. Might as well start working on that too.,, Then.. > > > > > > Matter of fact, let's list the elites in order of strength, so we can queue up the 'Nerf _____ skill because it's the strongest Elite in WvW' > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally better to nerf skills than buffing skills to avoid power creep > > Not really > > It's never a good idea to nerf builds when players build armor sets around them (and invest a lot of time in). It creates a disincentive to even play (because why bother playing if they keep eradicating certain builds?) > > Always better to buff, so instead of having 1-2 viable builds (which you know only exist on some classes), it's better to have 3-4 or 5-6. Power creep? Nah, keep buffing other classes until everything is in line. > > Keep in mind, when a player says something like "well it's time to shelve my ......" then you know you've made "balancing" error. This is complete madness. You need nerfs, and the current powercreep doesnt' improve the game or the boons. I know some players in NA still "blast waterfields", but for the record, combo fields are pretty much non existant. Because they got out-powercreeped. Half the boons in the game? Well, same thing. I either have them perma, or not at all. So we want what, anet to add new unique boons? ;) Content itself becomes more and more trivial, and inbalanced, by constant power creep. See PvE and skipping virtually all mechanics that previously had to be done. For WvW in particular, it creates an environment of high-sustain versus high-spike. You either run around with full boons, full health or you're in the center of a quite OP spike with no boons and no health. You're dead or you're fine. There's not much middle ground. There's no more "skilled boon uptime". There's no more "stab rotations". Cooldowns matter and even exist less. Powercreep isn't just good and your builds? Sorry but nerfing WoD properly doesn't even change the warrior gear much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > Scourges and firebrands are both a better meatshield. What makes you think warrior is a better damage sponge? > Also there's no real value in "soaking" damage as it's RNG-spread over everyone who's stacked. There is a value to having more players stacked to split the spread of the damage further, but there is no value to a class being "very good at it". There is only a disadvantage to the classes which are "the worst at it" as they're your limiting factor. The fact that they have high amounts of invulnerabilities. Even if its not better then others, which is obviously ridiculous to say, it still is a factor for the class. While they dont offer support in heals and excessive boons, they can still strip boons down like a gaurdian cant do and maintain the damage necessary to burst others down. Also want to add that if a class is good at soaking damage and they count as 1/5 of the hits for something like meteor, its going to make a huge impact, especially if its saving a player from being 1-2 shotted. Or even better, taking the spot of another in anything CC heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > > > Scourges and firebrands are both a better meatshield. What makes you think warrior is a better damage sponge? > > Also there's no real value in "soaking" damage as it's RNG-spread over everyone who's stacked. There is a value to having more players stacked to split the spread of the damage further, but there is no value to a class being "very good at it". There is only a disadvantage to the classes which are "the worst at it" as they're your limiting factor. > > The fact that they have high amounts of invulnerabilities. Even if its not better then others, which is obviously ridiculous to say, it still is a factor for the class. While they dont offer support in heals and excessive boons, they can still strip boons down like a gaurdian cant do and maintain the damage necessary to burst others down. > > Also want to add that if a class is good at soaking damage and they count as 1/5 of the hits for something like meteor, its going to make a huge impact, especially if its saving a player from being 1-2 shotted. Or even better, taking the spot of another in anything CC heavy. Warriors use their invulns the moment they aren't "sponging damage" for the group but rather go off-group to place their bubbles / damage ... And when you're off tag - you need the invulns to survive throughout all the damage without being stacked but you're also not soaking this damage for your group, you're eating free damage you need to run through to land your bubble. So I'll try again -despite my argument obviously being ridiculous-. How do warriors soak damage better than FBs or scourges with high barrier / high sustain / high block uptime / generally on stack / ... Yes, they do other things than... mitigate damage. I wasn't saying sb's aren't great and meta. They are. I'm saying several of your arguments aren't true. A heal scrapper soaks damage better than a warrior through high sustain, being on tag and high damage reduction. Just like you, when you start talking about meteo and target cap again. I'm going to repeat : ENGI is literally better at soaking damage than WARRIOR when played correctly. Particularly heal engi versus spellbreaker played as is "meta". Because it stays on tag, has high armor and high damage reduction modifiers resulting in low hits which require little heals to heal up. If you're in a bomb where warrior with the same armor as revs / necros need to use their invulns, then the necros will die and you pushed too deep. Warriors don't have high invuln uptime and aren't damage sponges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > > > > > Scourges and firebrands are both a better meatshield. What makes you think warrior is a better damage sponge? > > > Also there's no real value in "soaking" damage as it's RNG-spread over everyone who's stacked. There is a value to having more players stacked to split the spread of the damage further, but there is no value to a class being "very good at it". There is only a disadvantage to the classes which are "the worst at it" as they're your limiting factor. > > > > The fact that they have high amounts of invulnerabilities. Even if its not better then others, which is obviously ridiculous to say, it still is a factor for the class. While they dont offer support in heals and excessive boons, they can still strip boons down like a gaurdian cant do and maintain the damage necessary to burst others down. > > > > Also want to add that if a class is good at soaking damage and they count as 1/5 of the hits for something like meteor, its going to make a huge impact, especially if its saving a player from being 1-2 shotted. Or even better, taking the spot of another in anything CC heavy. > > Warriors use their invulns the moment they aren't "sponging damage" for the group but rather go off-group to place their bubbles / damage ... And when you're off tag - you need the invulns to survive throughout all the damage without being stacked but you're also not soaking this damage for your group, you're eating free damage you need to run through to land your bubble. > > So I'll try again -despite my argument obviously being ridiculous-. How do warriors soak damage better than FBs or scourges with high barrier / high sustain / high block uptime / generally on stack / ... > > Yes, they do other things than... mitigate damage. I wasn't saying sb's aren't great and meta. They are. I'm saying several of your arguments aren't true. A heal scrapper soaks damage better than a warrior through high sustain, being on tag and high damage reduction. Just like you, when you start talking about meteo and target cap again. > > I'm going to repeat : ENGI is literally better at soaking damage than WARRIOR when played correctly. Particularly heal engi versus spellbreaker played as is "meta". Because it stays on tag, has high armor and high damage reduction modifiers resulting in low hits which require little heals to heal up. > > If you're in a bomb where warrior with the same armor as revs / necros need to use their invulns, then the necros will die and you pushed too deep. Warriors don't have high invuln uptime and aren't damage sponges. > Honestly how is that any different in effectiveness? if anything its better that your soaking the damage up inside the enemy blob since then you have the attention of others which is allowing your blob to keep up less sustain. This is if theres one warrior doing this method, when we know that there are multiples in a blob. This is without even dropping WoD yet. How do warriors soak damage better? There defenses are more viable in different settings then a scourge and firebrand while still maintaining there dps capabilities. If a scourge is caught out of place, range burst would demolish them (already goes to show they dont really have better defense). Guardians dont have the same mobility to get them out of sticky situations, while they do offer more projectile hate, if you catch them, chances are they can only stall there deaths. There balanced in the since that they have to commit to a fight, unlike warrior. As you said before on stack it doesnt mean much since damage is spread, theyl heal through it anyways if theres not enough pressure going out, but in a scenario where there actually is, a warrior will take spot to soak up the damage better then the other 2 while being able to maintain full use of their abilities. I honestly doubt a heal scrapper maintains better sustain. The biggest factor there is if the bulwark gyro can manage to keep up, its bugged AI pathing makes it not traverse terrain. Protection the scrapper applies and needs to survive is also obliterated by WoD, which stops projectiles, while scrapper has a similar ability, its on a 4 second duration. If taking the alchemy line which converts conditions to boons, it meets the same faith, sometimes even working against you if they simply corrupt it again as your blob steps out of the EG#5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > its the only reason why warrior is meta right now, nerf it to the ground and you will see another class getting kicked out of squads, lets talk about diversity again > > > > > > > > > > > > warrior bubble alone wont kill you, its the amount of cc the rest of his zerg will throw at you, it has a pretty clear animation, throw corrupts at him to turn stab into fear, or tell a thoef to steal him for interrupt. as soon as its put down use one dodge from the center to get out > > > > > > > > > > Meta shouldnt matter as there are things still effective that warriors excel at. Like being able to soak up enough damage to also be able to waste attacks and keep others alive in a zerg. If I thought out an aoe and 5 warriors soak up that damage then I basically just wasted an attack no matter what it does. Not to mention they can matyr in with pulsing stability. Also corrupts are pretty much exclusive to one class. Thats definitely not balanced. > > > > > > > > Scourges and firebrands are both a better meatshield. What makes you think warrior is a better damage sponge? > > > > Also there's no real value in "soaking" damage as it's RNG-spread over everyone who's stacked. There is a value to having more players stacked to split the spread of the damage further, but there is no value to a class being "very good at it". There is only a disadvantage to the classes which are "the worst at it" as they're your limiting factor. > > > > > > The fact that they have high amounts of invulnerabilities. Even if its not better then others, which is obviously ridiculous to say, it still is a factor for the class. While they dont offer support in heals and excessive boons, they can still strip boons down like a gaurdian cant do and maintain the damage necessary to burst others down. > > > > > > Also want to add that if a class is good at soaking damage and they count as 1/5 of the hits for something like meteor, its going to make a huge impact, especially if its saving a player from being 1-2 shotted. Or even better, taking the spot of another in anything CC heavy. > > > > Warriors use their invulns the moment they aren't "sponging damage" for the group but rather go off-group to place their bubbles / damage ... And when you're off tag - you need the invulns to survive throughout all the damage without being stacked but you're also not soaking this damage for your group, you're eating free damage you need to run through to land your bubble. > > > > So I'll try again -despite my argument obviously being ridiculous-. How do warriors soak damage better than FBs or scourges with high barrier / high sustain / high block uptime / generally on stack / ... > > > > Yes, they do other things than... mitigate damage. I wasn't saying sb's aren't great and meta. They are. I'm saying several of your arguments aren't true. A heal scrapper soaks damage better than a warrior through high sustain, being on tag and high damage reduction. Just like you, when you start talking about meteo and target cap again. > > > > I'm going to repeat : ENGI is literally better at soaking damage than WARRIOR when played correctly. Particularly heal engi versus spellbreaker played as is "meta". Because it stays on tag, has high armor and high damage reduction modifiers resulting in low hits which require little heals to heal up. > > > > If you're in a bomb where warrior with the same armor as revs / necros need to use their invulns, then the necros will die and you pushed too deep. Warriors don't have high invuln uptime and aren't damage sponges. > > > > Honestly how is that any different in effectiveness? if anything its better that your soaking the damage up inside the enemy blob since then you have the attention of others which is allowing your blob to keep up less sustain. This is if theres one warrior doing this method, when we know that there are multiples in a blob. This is without even dropping WoD yet. Because "melee" and "range spike damage" are different than your melee classes proccing damage around them doesn't interfere with range damage unless the players are bad. A good example is scourge using F5 corrupts or axe weapons on warriors to prevent them from bubbling. Using this has no impact on their range spike, which uses shades and still goes off as normal. Your goal is to stack tight and mitigate damage ON TAG. Your goal is not to run around eating damage pretending it's helpful to tank more damage. This just puts extra stress on your healers. Standing 500 range off tag will have you take more damage, but you're not helping the group by "soaking damage". You're tanking damage which would otherwise miss / be evaded. Yes, warriors draw some focus when they go in but truthfully this has next to no impact on range spikes from proper players. The people and skills hitting "melee" against the warrior are vastly different than those hitting range. > How do warriors soak damage better? There defenses are more viable in different settings then a scourge and firebrand while still maintaining there dps capabilities. If a scourge is caught out of place, range burst would demolish them (already goes to show they dont really have better defense). Guardians dont have the same mobility to get them out of sticky situations, while they do offer more projectile hate, if you catch them, chances are they can only stall there deaths. Which has to do with mobility and surviving IF you're mispositioned. Warrior is more forgiving for walking into bombs - true. But this isn't damage mitigation, it's making BAD PLAYS and not being punished for it. Damage is better mitigated through classes which are on tag, have high armor / blocks / barrier / damage reduction mods. This allows them to stay on tag, take damage with minimal heal requirements and spread the damage that is on tag among all those there. >There balanced in the since that they have to commit to a fight, unlike warrior. As you said before on stack it doesnt mean much since damage is spread, theyl heal through it anyways if theres not enough pressure going out, but in a scenario where there actually is, a warrior will take spot to soak up the damage better then the other 2 while being able to maintain full use of their abilities. If you're standing in a bomb - a warrior will survive the first with procs and the second with actives if he uses them in time. Which is exactly the same as what necros and guards can do. I mean really, guards have 100 times more tools to survive and make it out. You're expecting balance based on ... people standing in bombs and bad gameplay. "A warrior is useful for mitigating damage in places where your guardians and necros die". Yeah that doesn't help does it? If everything other than warriors die; there is literally 0 point for your zerg to be there or to have damage mitigation there. You simply don't want to be there. I'll repeat : on tag is the only place you want to be "in" damage and care about mitigation. Nobody cares about mitigation when yolo'ing into bombs or enemy zergs as warriors do. They're not preventing damage or soaking up damage splitting it over players. They're simply using their cooldowns to eat tons of /free/ damage, to be able to drop offensive skills. > I honestly doubt a heal scrapper maintains better sustain. The biggest factor there is if the bulwark gyro can manage to keep up, its bugged AI pathing makes it not traverse terrain. Protection the scrapper applies and needs to survive is also obliterated by WoD, which stops projectiles, while scrapper has a similar ability, its on a 4 second duration. If taking the alchemy line which converts conditions to boons, it meets the same faith, sometimes even working against you if they simply corrupt it again as your blob steps out of the EG#5. ????????????? Our scrappers are getting 5k+ outgoing heal / sec in zergs with insane outgoing cleansing (which are all converted to boons) and protection uptime. Yes, if you sit in a bubble and facetank you'll still die. That's the point. If you wouldn't, there would be no counterplay. The same is true for a warrior - if he sits in an enemy WoD he'll die. I suggest you focus on learning the meta rather than trying to balance it. Engi build on builds.vabbi.eu - Baby steps :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 warriors has a window of being tanky. 1. pressing the rage stance grants resist x pulsing fury. and the last stand and that stability stance (u cannot be crit), also defy pain and invul stance. sorry their names are not in my thoughts right now. when you dive in, weather you go with sword shield or gs, you press the stab and fury stance so you got stab and fury rising. you press f2 to counter and if they hit you, ca you have more fury and cna do the gs special counter special. or bubble as the case then back to your group. out of this, a good warrior knows to dodge a lot. endurance wise a warrior is blessed. but once those are cast and on cd. well... if your not on your support classes, you are dead. :/ but if you can sustain the arc slice x full counter you will be semi immortal. unless the enemy is smart and hits you with boon strip condi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > Imo this skill does way too much. I suggest to remove the projectile block. It is the single most OP skill in wvw and I can't see a legitimate reason why it should have so many things going for it. Besides there is already plenty of projectile hate already. who cares? i play mainly ranger i dont really give a fuck about bubble, is it annoying? yes. but if ur around a bubble ur most likely on class that isnt even part of meta u shouldnt even be anywhere near that circle in this case. u should be picking on loners behind in blob. but w/e people on this forum would like to see everything nerfed how about ranger need 3 hit to kill anything necro/ele/mesmer 2 hits and the rest can 1 hit kill everything. then we have shit balanced no? every1 wants their toon to be out standing but o boi if something or some1 is ruining your fun ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > Warriors don't have high invuln uptime and aren't damage sponges. If warriors is your considered baseline for low invouln and being glassy then I say mesmers have low evade uptime and no stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > Warriors don't have high invuln uptime and aren't damage sponges. > > If warriors is your considered baseline for low invouln and being glassy then I say mesmers have low evade uptime and no stealth. Yeah who doesn't run 4k armor 42k hp shoutwarrior with double endure pain? :trollface: In the meta i'm playing, warriors use invulns to allow them to play aggro without being a damage sponge - rather than using their invulnerabilities to help sustain the group in any way as damage sponge. I seem to remember a HoT meta with berzerkers on full zerk scholar builds as main DPS... Yet they had the same (if not higher, I think it got nerfed?) invuln uptime ;). I'm sure they were damage sponges! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > Because "melee" and "range spike damage" are different than your melee classes proccing damage around them doesn't interfere with range damage unless the players are bad. A good example is scourge using F5 corrupts or axe weapons on warriors to prevent them from bubbling. Using this has no impact on their range spike, which uses shades and still goes off as normal. > Confused on the first point. Not really understanding that one. > Your goal is to stack tight and mitigate damage ON TAG. Your goal is not to run around eating damage pretending it's helpful to tank more damage. This just puts extra stress on your healers. Standing 500 range off tag will have you take more damage, but you're not helping the group by "soaking damage". You're tanking damage which would otherwise miss / be evaded. Yes, warriors draw some focus when they go in but truthfully this has next to no impact on range spikes from proper players. The people and skills hitting "melee" against the warrior are vastly different than those hitting range. > Your goal is to be effective, no matter what your doing, if its bagging results your doing something right even if it isnt the generic style of blob fighting. The play it this way mentality because "I think its the most effective way to play" is why the current design philosophy is so ridiculous in this game. No class needs to be able to do it all, especially with minimal effort play styles that outperform those that are more complex. And you actually are helping a group by soaking damage. If it mitigates it from a heavy hitting glass cannon class to keep them in action and not having to worry about being one shotted, the warrior helps astronomically. Whether they go in or not just them being able to take that extra hit from someone else who cant helps. > > Which has to do with mobility and surviving IF you're mispositioned. Warrior is more forgiving for walking into bombs - true. But this isn't damage mitigation, it's making BAD PLAYS and not being punished for it. Damage is better mitigated through classes which are on tag, have high armor / blocks / barrier / damage reduction mods. This allows them to stay on tag, take damage with minimal heal requirements and spread the damage that is on tag among all those there. > Im pretty sure the definition of what a warrior is doing at that point is damage mitigation, whether they are good or bad. Also warrior has high armor/blocks/ barrier / reflects/ boon strips and damage reduction mods...Ontop of high damage. Difference is, they don't have to be on a point huddled to take advantage of that. > > If you're standing in a bomb - a warrior will survive the first with procs and the second with actives if he uses them in time. Which is exactly the same as what necros and guards can do. I mean really, guards have 100 times more tools to survive and make it out. You're expecting balance based on ... people standing in bombs and bad gameplay. "A warrior is useful for mitigating damage in places where your guardians and necros die". Yeah that doesn't help does it? If everything other than warriors die; there is literally 0 point for your zerg to be there or to have damage mitigation there. You simply don't want to be there. > Im expecting balance on a equal level around all classes, based on risk vs reward and a bit of give or take for choosing paths. Im targeting WoD right now because this skill just does to much. its large, negates an area, strips boons and prevents application, destroys projectiles, on a low cooldown run by a class with high sustain, high burst and high mobility. Are there other classes that need to be toned down? Ofcourse, but right now the focus in this thread is on Spellbreaker. > I'll repeat : on tag is the only place you want to be "in" damage and care about mitigation. Nobody cares about mitigation when yolo'ing into bombs or enemy zergs as warriors do. They're not preventing damage or soaking up damage splitting it over players. They're simply using their cooldowns to eat tons of /free/ damage, to be able to drop offensive skills. > This doesnt really make much sense. > ????????????? Our scrappers are getting 5k+ outgoing heal / sec in zergs with insane outgoing cleansing (which are all converted to boons) and protection uptime. Yes, if you sit in a bubble and facetank you'll still die. That's the point. If you wouldn't, there would be no counterplay. The same is true for a warrior - if he sits in an enemy WoD he'll die. > > I suggest you focus on learning the meta rather than trying to balance it. Engi build on builds.vabbi.eu - Baby steps :) So why is it scrapper support can have counterplay, but a low cooldown elite that performs many actions cant? That is also good for your zergs, but like I said before one persons success doesnt count for the rest of the population. This isnt how balance should be done because there are way to many factors to account for when balancing off a specific blobs playstyle. if you want to keep the bubble the way it is thats great, but there needs to be better ways to handle it aside from running out of it, especially if theres more then 5 SBs all using it one after the next. Forget about any engaging gameplay if your small group roaming and theres atleast 2 of them with a firebrand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 @"iKeostuKen.2738" What I'm saying is it's hard to discuss balance if you don't grasp how WvW zerg fights actaully work. >And you actually are helping a group by soaking damage. If it mitigates it from a heavy hitting glass cannon class to keep them in action and not having to worry about being one shotted, the warrior helps astronomically. Whether they go in or not just them being able to take that extra hit from someone else who cant helps. How on earth is your warrior preventing hits from the backline by damage mitigation? Offensive bubble to give space, sure. The warrior mitigating damage for the backline? Uh. Yeah >Im pretty sure the definition of what a warrior is doing at that point is damage mitigation, whether they are good or bad. Also warrior has high armor/blocks/ barrier / reflects/ boon strips and damage reduction mods...Ontop of high damage. Difference is, they don't have to be on a point huddled to take advantage of that. Warrior has blocks as in... one hit from full counter? reflects? What is this, roaming with shield? Somehow warrior has barrier too? And damage reduction modifiers (which ones, exactly?)... On top of high armor and high damage? Please show me your warrior build with all those things. I don't think you're playing the same game I'm playing. I think you're one expansion ahead where warrior is super duper OP and somehow has 3 weapon sets + scourge F key's for barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 a warrior with barrier is from wow. if in gw2, pls sharez, i wanna try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Apologies, spoke of barrier in the literal sense, As an actual barrrier which is WoD. And please, dont act as if its not possible in this current state of the game to have them all on warrior. Powercreep has been able to make many things possible, look at mirage for an example of something that has access to to many things. Im not sure what build most run on SB but its usually the barebones stuff they would be running on core warrior. Weapon variant is GS + X/Shield, usually a axe or sword. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_DPS_Spellbreaker Doesnt really matter what weapon you take after GS, it still over performs wheter your zerging or roaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > Apologies, spoke of barrier in the literal sense, As an actual barrrier which is WoD. > > And please, dont act as if its not possible in this current state of the game to have them all on warrior. Powercreep has been able to make many things possible, look at mirage for an example of something that has access to to many things. > > Im not sure what build most run on SB but its usually the barebones stuff they would be running on core warrior. Weapon variant is GS + X/Shield, usually a axe or sword. > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_DPS_Spellbreaker > Doesnt really matter what weapon you take after GS, it still over performs wheter your zerging or roaming. Right, no barrier just a metaphorical WoD barrier. :no_mouth: The build you describe is for roaming; not zergs. Axe shield and sword shield are both not used at all in zergs. Even warhorn in zergs is more popular, altho most just use hammer such as metabattle and builds.vabbi.eu suggest. >Im pretty sure the definition of what a warrior is doing at that point is damage mitigation, whether they are good or bad. Also warrior has high armor/blocks/ barrier / reflects/ boon strips and damage reduction mods...Ontop of high damage. Difference is, they don't have to be on a point huddled to take advantage of that. Let's look a the linked metabattle. I see full marauder. Not exactly what I consider high armor. I don't see any blocks outside of 1 hit on full counter. I don't see any reflects. I don't see any damage reduction modifiers, other than the option to run it as food. You tell me it's possible yet...outside of some blocks and reflects from shield- which isn't even worth running hence why nobody recommends it- it doesn't happen and you can't backup any of your statements. You have a lot of hyperbole and very little understanding of balance / the meta / what is actually played and done by each class. This makes discussing meta and balance very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Im positive that its a universal build that excels in both and is used in both roaming and zerg fights. 1. Full marauder, yet has better survivability that works better then high armor builds of other classes(Which is also a stat thats been gutted to hell in this game, pretty pointless stat.) 2. Blocks, its not hard to swap on a x/shield. Hammer while its shown in the build can be swapped for another weapon, gs is mostly where your damage comes from and is also a mobility weapon as well. 2nd set is basically utility/backup. 3. Swap Dogged march for shield master in the first trait of the defense line. Theres your reflects. You can take either depending on if you want to roam or not. 4. Defense line alone bumps you up for 330 toughness without just for taking the traitline. Endure pain/ Defy pain are basically modifiers as they reduce the damage you take down to 0. Just because people dont recommend it doesnt mean it doesnt work and is not effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 a good warrior knows when to change trats and utils and weapon sets. =) there is no universal build. you change depending on the situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I mean, traitlines and gear are basically the same, all you really do is change one ability per line to swap to roam build. Its sort of universal for roles in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said: > Im positive that its a universal build that excels in both and is used in both roaming and zerg fights. > > 1. Full marauder, yet has better survivability that works better then high armor builds of other classes(Which is also a stat thats been gutted to hell in this game, pretty pointless stat.) > 2. Blocks, its not hard to swap on a x/shield. Hammer while its shown in the build can be swapped for another weapon, gs is mostly where your damage comes from and is also a mobility weapon as well. 2nd set is basically utility/backup. > 3. Swap Dogged march for shield master in the first trait of the defense line. Theres your reflects. You can take either depending on if you want to roam or not. > 4. Defense line alone bumps you up for 330 toughness without just for taking the traitline. Endure pain/ Defy pain are basically modifiers as they reduce the damage you take down to 0. > > Just because people dont recommend it doesnt mean it doesnt work and is not effective. Running shield in zergs, xD. Pretending warrior has better survivability than high armor classes - fair enough. Mostly cause mobility and amazing oh-shit buttons. Which they need to use to drop offensive bubbles; but hey. Carefully ignored that aspect. And obviously the class doesn't soak / mitigate damage better than guard / nec / ... as I stated. But hey, gotta try get out of your hyperbole and prove you're not clueless. Also the idea that toughness is a pointless stat... Yeah, sorry you managed to still prove you're absolutely clueless about WvW zergs. Soon you'll tell me the meta is condi and toughness is overrated :trollface: Warrior is strong and bubble could use a minor nerf. iKeo you can talk about balance when you understand how the game is played. Your "OP build" is one no proper player uses and still doesn't have all the stuff you claim. All of this because you're incapable of running a decent engi build and be effective in zergs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Not really understanding why running a shield as a offhand weapon in a zerg setting is a joke, especially being a frontliner. But you are the WvW expert I suppose who knows how everyone should be playing in a WvW Blob fest. Also warrior is pretty much a high armored class that has a higher base hp then everyone else, not sure how this one continues to fly over your head. Toughness is also very invaluable, while it allows you to soak up a extra hit or 2 by yourself, currently in the state of the game many classes do to much damage whether you have it or dont. Glass thief backstabs combo can render that toughness mute. Your better investing more points into pushing your damage especially if you are power instead of condition. But I guess if your running toughness on a warrior's power build instead of marauders, im the one doing things wrong as well. And yes toughness is overrated. Condi not so much since over the past months its been getting more counterplay while scourges have received nerfs. So your agreeing with my point that warrior is indeed a strong class that wouldnt suffer from a WoD nerf? Im confused on what your saying or continuing to try and belittle me from your "blob only" perspective of how a warrior should function instead of looking at pvp as a whole. I dont have to run anything meta to be effective in a zerg, My goal is not to be in the forfront of the blob to push with the commander but to apply support and the usual damage on those who fall off the tag. Both of which I cant do with a projectile based weapon because having 2+ bubbles that control a choke stops me from pretty much achieving any of those. Whether I go in or not since projectile based skills wont work anywhere unless the enemy zerg pushes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Yes, you have to realize that there is only one person that knows Zergs and Zerging. Once you get on board with that everything will be fine. Although, you do have to run Meta, or at least what the Commander demands you run. It's the only way to play WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revox.8273 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 ikeo, im confused about your confusion. when u will understand why warriors in zergs use hammer and not shields we will be in next expansion. all i see from you is complaining about everything but yourself, and from what i see u have no clue even about your class. engi is sooo amazing in wvw (if played right) just check [vT] xan on youtube, maybe u learn how engi works cuz ppl are tyred from explaining you the game https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKxKCu6hIWMtgnkVRHCiMYA there ya go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 There is a semantic confusion here because the word "meta" has at least two usages. Sometimes it's used to mean some thing like "optimal" or "best." Other times it just means some thing like "common." In the first case it always leads to an argument over expertise or proper authority. It's difficult to establish authority on a forum but within a guild or even a persistent server group it's really rather simple and natural. If someone tags up regularly and they are vocal in their preferences and can explain said preferences most people will try to change to accommodate that commanders preference over time. The ones who don't get mocked and/or ostracized until they comply. This is how what one person considers optimal becomes common on a server and thus where the semantic confusion is born on a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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