sneakytails.5629 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > One major issue with stealth is that you can't target stealthed characters at all, and for classes that have no (or minimal) ranged aoe, and where stealth can be reapplied as fast as a targeted skill can channel (thus target is lost thus skill is useless), killing a stealth-based character is next to impossible. GW2 already has a serious issue with targeting, as the various tab versions all work like crap, clicking manually is incredibly difficult in the middle of a fight, and stacking often makes it literally impossible to target the correct item or player. Add in the ability to shed your target every couple of seconds, and high-stealth players are essentially invulvnerable outside of ranged aoe. > > Add this to the ability to one-shot (or rapid-burst) from stealth for some builds, and you have a fundamental problem: a zero-risk/high-reward build. The complete lack of balance between risk and reward creates a flaw in the gameplay, and the thief-main defenders who constantly defend this nonsense are a major part of the problem. I am a Warrior main in WvW but I have put a Ranger and Thief into my character rotations. I would not characterize Thief as zero risk, as all it takes to down one is aoe and cleave damage, they are very vulnerable to it. The more single target in nature your damage is the better able a Thief is to mitigate it through movement abilities and just plain target dropping that they get for free. With that said target dropping is a very big deal and its a big advantage during a prolonged fight, the longer it lasts the better target dropping is for the stealth class. When I play my Thief I know I am benefiting from it while my target is hampered by it. You can stack cheese on any class in the game, it just feels worse when you start to consider target dropping and all the other little things that add up when fighting the Stealth classes. I still think the Initiative resource system is a good idea for a Stealth class like thief, the problem for me is things can still be spammed when they should not be. What needs to be looked at is the cost of all skills and abilities for stealth classes, technically you could make that case for every class in the game as again, its not just Thief that can stack, and stack things, other classes can too. Bottom line is that is waters the combat in this game down and you end up stacking cheese to fight cheese and that's just not fun anymore. I actually feel the Rework on Deadeye turned out pretty decent, its more engaging to play and actually requires an active play-style now as opposed to camping stealth. The only real problem I have is how they gave Deaths Judgement the Unblockable stat. A skill that has the ability to hit for 25k should never be unblockable. There has to be counter-play there. If you consider the fact that previously the Deadeye had to play around Reflects and Blocks it actually took more skill to use, now it takes less, its almost fire and forget now. I think getting rid of target dropping, and doing a class wide audit of skills costs and stacking mechanisms could really help alleviate the problems in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > I still think the Initiative resource system is a good idea for a Stealth class like thief, the problem for me is things can still be spammed when they should not be. yet the initative system is the reason why thief can spamm single skills endlessly. if it at least was 1 ini bar for each unique set with lower ini reg per bar, then you would need to swap weapon and wouldnt be able to camp endless on one set spamming one skill. this would therefor also allow weapon skills of the thief to be stronger then they are now, because they wouldnt be able to be spammed as much. also regarding deaths judgement, without it requirering stealth it was alot easier to hit IMO as you could DJ+ cancel it to bait a dodge and shoot for the end of the roll. or shoot DJ ,1-2 autos so you opponent will go on the offense and then shoot the next DJ, if you start on range you often did hit them in a movement skill then wich cannot be canceled with stow/esc. right now good opponents often will just dodge, without unblockable but stealth requirement that would be a wasted way to open from stealth. i personally would have prefered cursed bullet remaining the stealth attack and scale number of corrupted boons with malice and maybe make DJ a visible malicious attack so rifle has 2 option to get rid of malice. instead they gave us snipers cover so i can stealth in keeps without visual tell ..their choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 #Stealth-Creep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 > @"cobbah.3102" said: > Or just delete thief problem solved !!! I can't think of a single mechanic more despised in any MMO PvP game than stealth. As far as I am concerned, Thief doesn't need 'stealth' to be a thief. Shadowstep alone is enough flavor for the profession imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > you're certainly right on that. ton of skills sure require targeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > most skills in this game do not require a target. if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. most single target skills in the game are movement skills and projectiles wich so not require a target. but you can keeep on pretending that stealth will prevent most damage in the game.. also just for you, my first reply was to this >> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: >> if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. so yes it is comparing stealth to evade and stealth negates nowhere near the damage evades do. > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto > > death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. whats that to do with it being a projetile that hits without target, just like scepter autos ? you were the one complaining about it not hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. > > most single target skills in the game are movement skills and projectiles wich so not require a target. > but you can keeep on pretending that stealth will prevent most damage in the game.. > also just for you, my first reply was to this > >> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > >> if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. > so yes it is comparing stealth to evade and stealth negates nowhere near the damage evades do. > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > > > > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto > > > > death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. > > whats that to do with it being a projetile that hits without target, just like scepter autos ? you were the one complaining about it not hitting. You said you killed ppl with DJ. You ain't killing anything free aiming scepter autos. Which equals to Stealth preventing damage. 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MUDse.7623 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. > > > > most single target skills in the game are movement skills and projectiles wich so not require a target. > > but you can keeep on pretending that stealth will prevent most damage in the game.. > > also just for you, my first reply was to this > > >> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > >> if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. > > so yes it is comparing stealth to evade and stealth negates nowhere near the damage evades do. > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > > > > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > > > > > > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto > > > > > > death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. > > > > whats that to do with it being a projetile that hits without target, just like scepter autos ? you were the one complaining about it not hitting. > > You said you killed ppl with DJ. You ain't killing anything free aiming scepter autos. Which equals to Stealth preventing damage. how does that equal to stealth preventing damage? you also wont kill anyone free aiming scepter autos who is not in stealth. if you hit the person in stealth with your scepter auto, you will deal damage. you reply bullshit, just to make a reply. if you come up with something constructive i might reply again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. > > > > > > most single target skills in the game are movement skills and projectiles wich so not require a target. > > > but you can keeep on pretending that stealth will prevent most damage in the game.. > > > also just for you, my first reply was to this > > > >> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > >> if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. > > > so yes it is comparing stealth to evade and stealth negates nowhere near the damage evades do. > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > > > > > > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > > > > > > > > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto > > > > > > > > death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. > > > > > > whats that to do with it being a projetile that hits without target, just like scepter autos ? you were the one complaining about it not hitting. > > > > You said you killed ppl with DJ. You ain't killing anything free aiming scepter autos. Which equals to Stealth preventing damage. > > how does that equal to stealth preventing damage? you also wont kill anyone free aiming scepter autos who is not in stealth. > if you hit the person in stealth with your scepter auto, you will deal damage. > you reply kitten, just to make a reply. if you come up with something constructive i might reply again. If he is not in stealth, i have access to a lot of skills that require target, not just scepter autos. Stealth prevents damage, just accept it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"gebrechen.5643" said: > This whole argument is all "Please, don't touch my cheesy builds" The problem is that Thieves require cheese in order to survive and be effective in the current game. If you remove the cheese, the Thief dies too quickly. Why else do you think that the [strongest Thief in the game is a Skritt?](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skritt_Burglar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah and I said stealth negates alot of skills by 100%. Don't act like I cut you out of context thats perfectly within the context of your quote. And that is incorrect. Almost every single target skill in the game requires a target. You're free to browse the wiki to see that. > > > > > > > > most single target skills in the game are movement skills and projectiles wich so not require a target. > > > > but you can keeep on pretending that stealth will prevent most damage in the game.. > > > > also just for you, my first reply was to this > > > > >> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > >> if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. > > > > so yes it is comparing stealth to evade and stealth negates nowhere near the damage evades do. > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > > > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say i run GS on Mes. Cant use auto, ambush skill, gs2, gs4. On Mes scepter you can't use autos, ambush, scepter 3. On torch can't use one one of the two skills. On staff i can't use autos, ambush, staff 3, the rest aren't even damage skills so you can't damage at all if there's no target. This is just some examples from mes. Of course if you're playing an engi or warrior you will have plenty of cleave without needing a target, but a caster class doesn't have it same. You can't say most skills in the game do not require targeting because that's not true at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no tbh its pretty exclusive to mesmer issue as beam skills and your phantasm skills also need a target. and still most skills in this game do not require a target. > > > > > > > > also pretty sure you dont need a target for mesmer scepter autos and gs2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without target, the hitbox is way to small to free aim. that's not reliable damage at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > same can be said about any projectile, still ive killed several people with Deaths Judgement without targeting them. and that is a way slower attack then gs2 / scepter auto > > > > > > > > > > death judgement deals damage. scepters autos don't. > > > > > > > > whats that to do with it being a projetile that hits without target, just like scepter autos ? you were the one complaining about it not hitting. > > > > > > You said you killed ppl with DJ. You ain't killing anything free aiming scepter autos. Which equals to Stealth preventing damage. > > > > how does that equal to stealth preventing damage? you also wont kill anyone free aiming scepter autos who is not in stealth. > > if you hit the person in stealth with your scepter auto, you will deal damage. > > you reply kitten, just to make a reply. if you come up with something constructive i might reply again. > > If he is not in stealth, i have access to a lot of skills that require target, not just scepter autos. Stealth prevents damage, just accept it already. i do, just not near to the amount of evade chaining or outranging your opponent wich is what you do, yet you complain about the deadeye being untouchable in stealth. i had many mirages surviving my opener and just chain evades while running away with greater mobility then mine, reset and come back multiple times in a fight. i much prefer fighting someone in stealth because them i can kill, one who chains evades and runs away with greater mobility then mine ? nothing i can do against this. another issue i have with your complains is you complained about a bad deadeye, yet if you had faced a good deadeye you would complain about what is really broken in the build and its not stealth. you can prevent him from going into stealth with a dodge as you were running sword, use it. edit: to be more clear i stated stealth does not prevent taking damage, you read it as there is no skill you cannot be hit with in stealth. yet i only said you are not safe from damage while in stealth. and the deadeye was bad because his use of stealth was poorly, he build up malice way to aggressively against a mirage and he tried the oneshot with a rifle. a good deadeye wouldnt risk anything, because the mirage doesnt risk anything. thats the one of the most important rules for a deadeye. if you can pick your fights, dont risk more then your opponent. and with that he would fight very different, he wouldnt use TRB unless he fought you before or watch you fight other people and knew your bad. 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starhunter.6015 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I honestly think that Stealth and Reveal need a rework all together to help fix many of the issues. Also think that one should not be able to stomp while in stealth or mist form, unless a proper counter measure is made available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. Don't be daft. My cleave is useless on targets outside of melee range, and the only non-targeted ranged aoe I have is lb3. A thief pops in from stealth, deals massive damage from nowhere, dodges out and stealths instantly, what am I supposed to do but sit and wait for his next attack? He came from nowhere, dodged out of melee and disappeared before I could even react. If he weren't stealthed, there's a lot I could do. Stealthed, all I can do is flail wildly at someone outside of flailing range. Zero risk damage-dealing on his part. Stealth 100% dictates the outcome of that initial encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > > > And now you get stealth from simply dodging. I just fought a perma stealth cheese, each time i got him to 20% (which is already hard to do when he's stealthing all day), he gets in stealth, stays in stealth until full and then comes out for the one shot potential. if it fails, gets back in stealth, and goes afk in stealth until assasin's signet is fully recharged for the one shot chance once more. Its very exciting to fight, but at least on mirage you have enough defensives to never die and LoS his shots behind your clones lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > ever thought about him not being able to kill you outside a oneshot as you on your mirage do not provide windows to counter pressure? its alot easier to kill a mirage with a burst/oneshot from a little stealth then trying to land stuff between their evades, or with range even hitting them without the clones bodyblocking. > > > > > > also if he tried to oneshot you with a rifle he was not a good cheeseye or assumed/knew you are bad. > > > > > > > > > > the evade frames were lowered with the blurred frenzy nerf, and its pretty noticeable. And of course he was spamming rifle 3 like every deadeye, not just the one shot. if mirage has barely any frames for you to hit, then a perma stealth thief might as well be in another borderlands because there is no frames to hit him at all, especially with the stealth on dodge change. The best bet to deal against it is soulbeast with sic em, but that's not what i was running. > > > > > > > > because stealth doesnt prevent taking damage > > > > > > Yeah stealth does prevent damage. A ton of skills require a lock on to be used and that it damage being prevented with a factor of 100%. > > > > > > > most skills in this game do not require a target. > > if you didnt cut that half sentence out you woul have realized it was about comapring stealth to evades. evades prevent 100% damage, just very few damaging skills do need a target, usually those are targeted teleports wich dont deal much damage. > > Don't be daft. My cleave is useless on targets outside of melee range, and the only non-targeted ranged aoe I have is lb3. A thief pops in from stealth, deals massive damage from nowhere, dodges out and stealths instantly, what am I supposed to do but sit and wait for his next attack? He came from nowhere, dodged out of melee and disappeared before I could even react. If he weren't stealthed, there's a lot I could do. Stealthed, all I can do is flail wildly at someone outside of flailing range. Zero risk damage-dealing on his part. > > Stealth 100% dictates the outcome of that initial encounter. correct your a warrior, you are useless outside of melee range. what does it matter if the target is outside of melee range full visible or not? if they attack you, you have 3s to close the gap and pressure them, gapclosers started (or set in skillQ) before the thief is in stealth will still finish. i often see warriors use bullscharge as soon as i dodge and hit me with it at the end of my dodge. then i am in stealth and knockeddown, yet rarely one follows up with some damage. if they have magebane thether they could use for example arcing slice to get me out of stealth there, they just dont do it. your issue as a warrior is not the stealth, its the range. you cant close the gap fast enough in most cases. if i open from melee and dont onehit with that opener, then i better have shadow step ready to get me on range so i can use shadow meld without being interrupted and withou you closing the gap. and again here the issue you have is range not stealth. a gunflame warrior is far more dangerous to me then most other warriors, because a gunflame oneshots me when zerker (most deadeyes you will see are) and when not it will still kick my out of kneel so you can prevent me going stealth with immob and can probably finish me off with a volley. yet i think gunflame warrior is not as good against other meta specs. a freshair scepter weaver would only be a thread if he was running air earth weaver with crit immune on earth so i cant open up with a oneshot, but then it would be a real threat, but again thats not good fighting other specs. you could probably build any class good to kill a deadeye, but that will in most cases be bad against many other builds. that is what makes deadeye good. so it is better to just survivie and be able to ignore deadeyes while being viable against other specs, for this tho stealth is not the issue but high damage / CC without tell is the issue. Malicious Backstab is what you should adress if you think they are currently too strong as it is for most a oneshot without tell, not much counterplay therefor make the malice scaling something different then damage. also bindins shadows has no animation when cast from stealth so thats a 3s knockdown + immob without animation, it will have a red stream going from the deadeye to target when visible, not sure why it is invisible aswell when stealthed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absconditus.6804 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I don't think we need more stealth in the game. It's already pretty annoying. The only issue that I really have with Stealth though, stems from Backstab to be honest. It's something you can't really react to, you can only try to predict when it's coming. Not every class and/or build are granted a plethora of evades and/or blocks, so once that Thief is in stealth, you got to pray you dodge the pain train that is heading your way. Needing to go into some cookie cut build just to counter a broken skill is poor game design. Backstab simply does too high damage when it's an instant skill from stealth. It's broken. That skill should have been gutted and/or reworked years ago. I enjoyed cheesing around on Thief too for a good part of a year, but I do recognize that it's a pretty broken skill when you can instantly down someone from Stealth. Again, that is just poor game design and not fun for anyone but the Thief players who only care about relying on the broken skill as a crutch to feel good at PvP. That's my opinion anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archmagus.7249 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Scrapper could permastealth with sneak gyro and toss elixir s, but the thieves threw a fit and it got nerfned into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Stealth is absolute BS. You can't even hit them with AoE's. Case in point. Had a Deadeye inside a tower, kept stealthing before anybody could target them. We layed down MULTIPLE AoE's all over the place. Never touched them ONCE! Managed to take a few of us down before escaping outside the tower and running away without a scratch. Stealth should NOT be a part of this game in any form of PvP mode. I can see using it in PvE, but not as an offensive measure. More of a stealth past a difficult area instance. If you want to give Thieves some kind of mechanic, give them Evades and Dodges. No stealth. I'm so sick of stealth it's not even funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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