Clarity On Smokescale Nerf

[Gotejjeken.1267]

If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

 

That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

 

Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

[Lazze.9870]

They should change "overperforming pet" to "only performing pet", because that's what smokescale for the most part is.

 

The amount of nerfs smokescale has had over the years means it is likely they're never gonna add another pet with the ability to stick to opponents as well as smokescale can, or change any existing ones to do the same. The extremely predictable rotation of the smokescale, its cooldowns and generaly a pet that you actually need to pay attention to aside from the F2 are too much for the crybabies.

[Zexanima.7851]

I only do pvp really but I never use the SS because of the damage, mainly just for the smoke field and the way smoke assault makes a lot of people panic and waste a dodge. I don't really see the nerf changing how I use SS at all. I'm a noob ranger but I don't think pets really need to output that much damage (at least for pvp). They work great for utility and to apply a small amount of pressure at all times. Idk, maybe I'm missing something.

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> I only do pvp really but I never use the SS because of the damage, mainly just for the smoke field and the way smoke assault makes a lot of people panic and waste a dodge. I don't really see the nerf changing how I use SS at all. I'm a noob ranger but I don't think pets really need to output that much damage (at least for pvp). They work great for utility and to apply a small amount of pressure at all times. Idk, maybe I'm missing something.

 

You said it yourself, having a pet that can stick to a target means it output _some_ extra pressure. That pressure is reduced when you nerf its damage. The builds that use pets as an actual damage source aren't viable, and those builds aren't using smokescale to dish out that damage in the first place, as it doesn't benefit from remorseless.

 

The problem isn't really that they nerf pet damage, it is that the pet's damage is never rebalanced into the ranger itself (I'm aware ranger got some power buffs this patch, but those were needed regardless). If they want pets to be utility only, that's fine by me.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

 

Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

 

Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

[Substance E.4852]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

>

> Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

>

> Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

 

It's almost as if the core pets are trash and need to be brought in line with where the game is in 2018 rather than stuck in pre-launch design philosophy.

[Euthymias.7984]

In anet's eyes, Smokescale and other pets are "utilities" (read: """RNG"""" CC and fields) and glorified auto-attacks that have trouble keeping on a moving target. The very fact that they think Smokescale was "overperforming" is indicative of their idea that pets (core or otherwise) are fine where they are and its only Smokescale being reliable or a threat to the enemy thats an "outlier".

[Gotejjeken.1267]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

>

> Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

>

> Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

 

Sounds like this is more on paper 'experience' than actual experience.

 

This is also why our pets are never touched...people are literally getting killed by AI with the worst pathing ever.

 

We can't even do cool stuff anymore like stealth kills from Jaguar...those were fun times.

 

Now, if a pet hits someone it's OP.

[Xenash.1245]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

>

> Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

>

> Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

 

When you compare it to the other pets, sure it's rather broken in comparison. But when you also take into account the usage of those pets things seem to become a bit more clear. I don't think anyone minded really that the Smokescale got nerfed, but the way they worded the change about it over preforming while making no other change to older pets was concerning.

 

And no, no one will be able to point you to the core Tyria pet that can compare to that really since the core Tyria pets generally suck outside of their niche usages. Also yes some of the core Tyria pets are still used sure, but they're generally only used for singular purposes as the rest of their kits are generally useless.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

> >

> > Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> > It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> > Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> > And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

> >

> > Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

>

> It's almost as if the core pets are trash and need to be brought in line with where the game is in 2018 rather than stuck in pre-launch design philosophy.

Yeah, that. The smokescale is where all pets _should_ be, but Anet will never do it because the PVP babies will drown us all in their tears if pets are actually functional.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"Xenash.1245" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

> >

> > Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> > It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> > Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> > And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

> >

> > Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

>

> When you compare it to the other pets, sure it's rather broken in comparison. But when you also take into account the usage of those pets things seem to become a bit more clear. I don't think anyone minded really that the Smokescale got nerfed, but the way they worded the change about it over preforming while making no other change to older pets was concerning.

>

> And no, no one will be able to point you to the core Tyria pet that can compare to that really since the core Tyria pets generally suck outside of their niche usages. Also yes some of the core Tyria pets are still used sure, but they're generally only used for singular purposes as the rest of their kits are generally useless.

 

Aye, by now, I am used to it.

Can't expect a perfect patch. There always has to be some scratching my head moment.

 

Who was complaining about the dmg of smokescale?

It wasn't over performing.

IT WAS JUST PERFORMING.

Anet should make every pet as consistent as smokescale.

[Durzlla.6295]

It’s been so long with no real buffs to pets I’ve just assumed pets are supposed to be about a 700-1500 dmg dot you out on the enemy that provides some utility and CC.

 

The reason they nerfed the smoke scale was because it was effectively performing the role of a canine but bringing significantly more damage, while also being one of 2 pets that allows the ranger to stealth. And I’m guessing they saw that and decided “we need this more in line with canine pets” and thus nerfed the damage a bit to make it closer to them. It’s damage still is pretty good, it’s just mid tier now instead of anywhere close to top tier, which is as it should be unless they decided current cats are the new pet damage baseline, and if that’s the case they’d better start buffing the shit out of every other pet and either giving cats utility, survivability,CC or even more damage.

 

The real changes Anet needs to make now isn’t to the pets damage, they need to slightly increase rangers power ratio now that they’re very clearly deciding that pets should NOT deal 20% of the Rangers DPS (which is fine), and make the pets attacks work like Moa Morph/the Wyvern where they lunge with every attack to make them able to reliably hit moving targets.

 

It’s not like there’s no counterplay around pets that people can abuse to send our pet mechanic on a 60s CD and vastly cripple the ranger, so our pets hitting regularly shouldn’t be an issue especially if their damage numbers are still stuck in the days of launch GW2.

[Lazze.9870]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Oh come on. Everyone and their dog knows this one time a-net's on the money.

>

> Look at any aspect of smokescale and you can say it's OP. Durability is way above canines which smokescale is part of (or should be looking it it's skills).

> It's the sole land smokefield provider for ranger - huge for stealth generation. Oh for SB it also provides a leap finisher, how dandy!

> Has a knockdown like all canines, even if purely melee.

> And then there's smoke assault....or two if you're a SB.

>

> Somone point me to a core Tyrian Pet that comes even close to that?

 

Implying core pets are an acceptable baseline. No one ran anything but wolf prior to HoT, for most of the same reason people run smokescale now. It had the most utility.

 

Two SA. Yeah. What about it? The ranger doesn't get two, the utility of it is split between the ranger and an AI. Making an argument out of having access to "two SA" doesn't make sense when the damage portion of the skill is only so-so.

 

> @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> In anet's eyes, Smokescale and other pets are "utilities" (read: """RNG"""" CC and fields) and glorified auto-attacks that have trouble keeping on a moving target. The very fact that they think Smokescale was "overperforming" is indicative of their idea that pets (core or otherwise) are fine where they are and its only Smokescale being reliable or a threat to the enemy thats an "outlier".

 

The ranger is still taxed with awful coefficients on its weapon because it has a pet in the first place. If they don't want pets to be anything but utilities, then add the damage back to the ranger.

[Durzlla.6295]

@"Lazze.9870" oh, pets useablebin today’s meta? Well in PvP any canine is still very solid for the CC it has, and in PvE the Lynx is still super high (if not still the HIGHEST) danage pet on stationary things. And any cat for that matter is going to be top DPS, I just know lynx pulls ahead due to the F2

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> @"Lazze.9870" oh, pets useablebin today’s meta? Well in PvP any canine is still very solid for the CC it has, and in PvE the Lynx is still super high (if not still the HIGHEST) danage pet on stationary things. And any cat for that matter is going to be top DPS, I just know lynx pulls ahead due to the F2

 

We're not talking about PvE. Ranger would have been better of in PvE by diverting all the pet damage to the ranger anyway.

 

Canines were THE meta before HoT. For reasons I already stated. If any core pet family was going to remain useful up until this point, it was going to be the canines. If we're gonna cherrypick, I could also add the birds as useful pets, especially with soulbeast, but that doesn't really change the underlying problem, does it? If someone is gonna claim the smokescale is OP because core pets pales in comparison to it, then they ought to have a look at the all the core pets while at it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yeah, I fear this nerf is in line with 'LB is underperforming so we nerfed SB range' of 3-4 years ago.

 

Unfortunately that logic is awful for pets.

 

The real question here it seems is...WHAT is the baseline pet? I always thought it was SS because it can hit, has utility, and had some damage.

 

Clearly that's wrong.

 

Also I'm guessing minion stats are unsplittable? If they weren't...why is this nerf in WvW, or PvE for that matter?

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" oh, pets useablebin today’s meta? Well in PvP any canine is still very solid for the CC it has, and in PvE the Lynx is still super high (if not still the HIGHEST) danage pet on stationary things. And any cat for that matter is going to be top DPS, I just know lynx pulls ahead due to the F2

>

> We're not talking about PvE. Ranger would have been better of in PvE by diverting all the pet damage to the ranger anyway.

>

> Canines were THE meta before HoT. For reasons I already stated. If any core pet family was going to remain useful up until this point, it was going to be the canines. If we're gonna cherrypick, I could also add the birds as useful pets, especially with soulbeast, but that doesn't really change the underlying problem, does it? If someone is gonna claim the smokescale is OP because core pets pales in comparison to it, then they ought to have a look at the all the core pets while at it.

 

I wasn’t positive you were only talking PvP which is why I threw cats in their tbh, they’re alright in PvP if you can hold an enemy down, but otherwise they suck.

 

Which is the main problem almost all of our pets have, they can’t hit moving targets, if they added a little lunge to all of our core pets like they did with Smokescale/Moa Morph I guarantee you that we’d be seeing more core pets being used because they’d suddenly be capable of hitting targets regularly. That and adding a little bit of utility to some pet types like Bears and Devourers and I think pets would actually be in a pretty solid place overall.

 

I will say that compared to baseline pets Smokescales damage, utility, and CC were inflated so it needed a hit on one of those fronts, but the MAIN thing that makes it so damn good is that it is able to reliably hit a target that isn’t standing still.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

>

> That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

>

> Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

 

They should be utility only just for balance reasons. But they do not have utility and we lose dmg due to pet dmg compensation.

We need improvements on pet utility skill and hit reliability for procs.

They need to adress pets, they are outdated and need an update.

 

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

>

> That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

>

> Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

 

It was overpowered.

 

There is your clarity.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> > If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

> >

> > That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

> >

> > Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

>

> It was overpowered.

>

> There is your clarity.

>

 

Troll much?

 

On topic, if pets suddenly are meant to be utility only, why can they do damage and why can they 'die'?

 

Which is why I wonder what the actual dev stance is on this.

 

Not talking SB here where the pet literally becomes a set of skills. Talking core ranger / druid where the pet is very much not just a 'utility'.

[Substance E.4852]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> > If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

> >

> > That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

> >

> > Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

>

> It was overpowered.

>

> There is your clarity.

>

 

I miss the down vote feature.

[jcbroe.4329]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> > > If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

> > >

> > > That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

> > >

> > > Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

> >

> > It was overpowered.

> >

> > There is your clarity.

> >

>

> I miss the down vote feature.

 

I like being able to see who the bronzelords are though.

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"jcbroe.4329" said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > @"Gotejjeken.1267" said:

> > > > If a dev actually does look here, can we get some clarity on this nerf?

> > > >

> > > > That is, what is considered overperforming? 99% of Rangers run SS because it's the only thing that can hit.

> > > >

> > > > Basically, is this patch official confirmation pets are utility only?

> > >

> > > It was overpowered.

> > >

> > > There is your clarity.

> > >

> >

> > I miss the down vote feature.

>

> I like being able to see who the bronzelords are though.

 

I didn’t think it actually hid the posts.

 

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

>..... while also being one of 2 pets that allows the ranger to stealth....

>

~~quick question here, one pet is smokescale... which one is the second which allows the ranger to stealth?~~

 

I just remember the pigs with the enviromental stuff... Although i would call a rng utility something reliable...

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> >..... while also being one of 2 pets that allows the ranger to stealth....

> >

> ~~quick question here, one pet is smokescale... which one is the second which allows the ranger to stealth?~~

>

> I just remember the pigs with the enviromental stuff... Although i would call a rng utility something reliable...

 

Lol I didn’t say it was RELIABLE stealth from the Asia moth, but it’s a 2/3 chance that you’ll get a stealth item so it’s more reliable than the other pigs.