This has to stop !!

[SoulSin.5682]

1% of the community were complaining before patch, another 1% of the community is complaining after patch.

 

Thats just how MMo Foruns works :+1:

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

 

Well look on the bright side, raids have been out for years and this is the first time thief is properly meta. You're still viable as an ele, not top dps now but viable, which is fine for you as you bring utility thief doesn't and that's a lot better than it could have been and has been for a number of classes up until this point. So yes, stick with the class you play that's still suitable for the content if that's what you wanna do. Or don't. Up to you.

[steki.1478]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

>

> Well look on the bright side, raids have been out for years and this is the first time thief is properly meta. You're still viable as an ele, not top dps now but viable, which is fine for you as you bring utility thief doesn't and that's a lot better than it could have been and has been for a number of classes up until this point. So yes, stick with the class you play that's still suitable for the content if that's what you wanna do. Or don't. Up to you.

 

Ele stopped bringing actual utility when tempest died as dps option. Besides cleave (which dd has), there's nothing that's not covered/better on other classes.

[Ivantreil.3092]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

 

Dude, i have been an Engineer all my time and only Engineer since i started this game, i have been doing all my raids since release with this class regardless of how poorly Engi was performing in the benchmarks at some points of the HoT era, never top benchmark, i always got a spot, played condi engi many many times in bosses that it was meant to be awful for my class, and i still got the kills, and i got my legendary armor purely with only this Class.

 

Don't tell me that bs that you can't play your fav class because it's not top benchmark anymore, i could, and you can, it's pure mental denial here.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

>

> Dude, i have been an Engineer all my time and only Engineer since i started this game, i have been doing all my raids since release with this class regardless of how poorly Engi was performing in the benchmarks at some points of the HoT era, never top benchmark, i always got a spot, played condi engi many many times in bosses that it was meant to be awful for my class, and i still got the kills, and i got my legendary armor purely with only this Class.

>

> Don't tell me that bs that you can't play your fav class because it's not top benchmark anymore, i could, and you can, it's pure mental denial here.

 

I already don't play my class on specific bosses. I switch to mirage for Cairn, Matthias and SH. And I switched to scourge for Dhuum CM. Can I play ele and get carried there? Probably. But I don't want to. And on SH I'd be a danger to my own team.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

>

> Well look on the bright side, raids have been out for years and this is the first time thief is properly meta. You're still viable as an ele, not top dps now but viable, which is fine for you as you bring utility.

 

No I don't and no, it's not fine. Incoming MS fix will lower ele dps by further 10-15%. How low do you think it can go while still remaining "viable"? Complex playstyle, zero utility and poor damage? Yeah, it's fine. As long as you have no intention to ever play it.

[SidewayS.3789]

@"Feanor.2358" : Welcome to necro world dude.


 

[BadSanta.6527]

So let me understand, when people complain about ranger is ok but when it is thief it is wrong. Grow up man......

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

 

Some necro mains do it, why can't you?

[oOAvengerOo.6714]

> @"BadSanta.6527" said:

> So let me understand, when people complain about ranger is ok but when it is thief it is wrong. Grow up man......

 

Who complains about Ranger ?

I mean for me nobody should complain about other class if the class they main or like to play are still viable and playable in their favourite game mode. But you know it's the human nature to complain apparently.

[lkilian.1854]

 

> > Nobody's forcing you to play thief.

> >

> > I don't like complexity simply for the sake of it, and I don't find a long rotation any more skillful than a short one, so I don't play ele. Different classes, different aesthetics, play what you like and sod the rest.

>

> Sure. I can take all the downsides without getting any advantage. But I still *could* do it, right? Following this logic, nothing ever needs rebalancing.

 

You actually can! I played thief dps on raids when it had very mediocre dps because I really like the profession tematically and managed to clear al raids by playing decently, while I could have taken other classes much stronger than thief. If you like ele, you can still play ele and you will realize that it is still very strong (check recent speedclears if you still don't think so and watch how many eles they use and how many thieves). If you don't actually care about the profession you are playing, I honestly see no reason to complain given that you will swap to the next strong class (not speaking despectively, it's a way of playing).

 

It's funny how noone gave a fuck about thief until we got a buff that allowed us to actually do stuff (it still has downsides, principally no cleave and high condi-boon realiance). Especially when the major part of the people who complain hasn't touched a thief in their life.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

>

> Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

 

And gors. .

[Feanor.2358]

> @"lkilian.1854" said:

>

> > > Nobody's forcing you to play thief.

> > >

> > > I don't like complexity simply for the sake of it, and I don't find a long rotation any more skillful than a short one, so I don't play ele. Different classes, different aesthetics, play what you like and sod the rest.

> >

> > Sure. I can take all the downsides without getting any advantage. But I still *could* do it, right? Following this logic, nothing ever needs rebalancing.

>

> You actually can! I played thief dps on raids when it had very mediocre dps because I really like the profession tematically and managed to clear al raids by playing decently, while I could have taken other classes much stronger than thief. If you like ele, you can still play ele and you will realize that it is still very strong (check recent speedclears if you still don't think so and watch how many eles they use and how many thieves). If you don't actually care about the profession you are playing, I honestly see no reason to complain given that you will swap to the next strong class (not speaking despectively, it's a way of playing).

>

> It's funny how noone gave a kitten about thief until we got a buff that allowed us to actually do stuff (it still has downsides, principally no cleave and high condi-boon realiance). Especially when the major part of the people who complain hasn't touched a thief in their life.

 

You're saying I could actually get carried. Which is true. But whether or not I want to be a burden on my team is another matter entirely.

 

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

> >

> > Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

>

> And gors. .

 

Nah, anyone can clear these.

[oOAvengerOo.6714]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>

> You're saying I could actually get carried. Which is true. But whether or not I want to be a burden on my team is another matter entirely.

>

 

Wow at least it's clear now. You want Ele to to be a top DPS not to be a burden for your team but let other people who play other DPS class be a burden for their group, you are OK with that because it isn't about you.

I think playing ele in raid right now even if it's lower SINGLE target DPS than Thief, doesn't mean you are a burden for the team ele still have good DPS.

If you were playing Power Herald or other class like that whose are not in a very good spot for a DPS slot in raid I could understand but you play Ele so...

[Feanor.2358]

> @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >

> > You're saying I could actually get carried. Which is true. But whether or not I want to be a burden on my team is another matter entirely.

> >

>

> Wow at least it's clear now. You want Ele to to be a top DPS not to be a burden for your team but let other people who play other DPS class be a burden for their group, you are OK with that because it isn't about you.

> I think playing ele in raid right now even if it's lower SINGLE target DPS than Thief, doesn't mean you are a burden for the team ele still have good DPS.

> If you were playing Power Herald or other class like that whose are not in a very good spot for a DPS slot in raid I could understand but you play Ele so...

 

It's not just about ele. I don't mind Thief being the top dps, but not with that gameplay. Making all that extra effort and getting so much worse results is just insulting.

 

As for the current state - yes, *currently* eles can still be an asset. But what about later today when MS gets "fixed" and loses ~40% damage?

 

I'd say eles could still retain their place, however there's a pitfall - this place is likely to be only in high end groups. You see, on top of more complex gameplay and worse results, ele DPS gets to be dependent on your group dps because ANet amplified the difference between the burst peak and the trough that follows. Since all the multihit attacks just got front-loaded and weaker.

 

So if your group can phase the boss in the ele's initial burst, it will still be BiS. If it can't, it will be a huge liability. Who, exactly, benefits from that? What options does it create?

[Sephylon.4938]

Wasn't a problem with necros, don't see why it should be with ele. Dw you'll get properly compensated. I'm guessing scepter 2 will get more burning stacks along with dagger 2.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Wasn't a problem with necros, don't see why it should be with ele. Dw you'll get properly compensated. I'm guessing scepter 2 will get more burning stacks along with dagger 2.

 

Shatterstone will get damage increased by 6%. In two months, when the next balance update is released, that is.

[Tails.9372]

> I don't mind Thief being the top dps, but not with that gameplay.

Than this has nothing to do with balance but personal preference. Reading stuff like this reminds me of the "Dulfy is Breaking the Immersion" thread, the basic premise behind these complaints is exactly the same. If the reason one plays X is the DPS and not because the player in question likes the gameplay then that in itself is a clear sign bad game design which is something A-Net shouldn't promote.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > I don't mind Thief being the top dps, but not with that gameplay.

> Than this has nothing to do with balance but personal preference. Reading stuff like this reminds me of the "Dulfy is Breaking the Immersion" thread, the basic premise behind these complaints is exactly the same. If the reason one plays X is the DPS and not because the player in question likes the gameplay then that in itself is a clear sign bad game design which is something A-Net shouldn't promote.

 

It has everything to do with balance. You can't have greater risk produce the same, or worse, results. Not only it is fairly obvious and logical what happens, we also saw it happen, with condi engi. Making OP, dumbed down builds is absurd.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > I don't mind Thief being the top dps, but not with that gameplay.

> > Than this has nothing to do with balance but personal preference. Reading stuff like this reminds me of the "Dulfy is Breaking the Immersion" thread, the basic premise behind these complaints is exactly the same. If the reason one plays X is the DPS and not because the player in question likes the gameplay then that in itself is a clear sign bad game design which is something A-Net shouldn't promote.

>

> It has everything to do with balance. You can't have greater risk produce the same, or worse, results. Not only it is fairly obvious and logical what happens, we also saw it happen, with condi engi. Making OP, dumbed down builds is absurd.

Define "risk", are you talking about other builds having sufficient access to counterplay or are you talking about someone choosing to play an overly complicated build bacause "the simple stuff" is to dull for him? If it's the former then yes, no one should be a jack of all trades, master of everything at the same time. If it's the later then no, it's no one's buisses how other players choose to play the game as long as the skill ceiling is roughly the same. Being "dumbed down" doesn't mean that a buld is "OP" just like how being overly complicated to play doesn't mean that a buld isn't "OP". What makes a build OP is the ability to overpower the rest. If something isn't capable of objectively performing better then the rest it's not OP, simple as that.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > > I don't mind Thief being the top dps, but not with that gameplay.

> > > Than this has nothing to do with balance but personal preference. Reading stuff like this reminds me of the "Dulfy is Breaking the Immersion" thread, the basic premise behind these complaints is exactly the same. If the reason one plays X is the DPS and not because the player in question likes the gameplay then that in itself is a clear sign bad game design which is something A-Net shouldn't promote.

> >

> > It has everything to do with balance. You can't have greater risk produce the same, or worse, results. Not only it is fairly obvious and logical what happens, we also saw it happen, with condi engi. Making OP, dumbed down builds is absurd.

> Define "risk", are you talking about other builds having sufficient access to counterplay or are you talking about someone choosing to play an overly complicated build bacause "the simple stuff" is to dull for him? If it's the former then yes, no one should be a jack of all trades, master of everything at the same time. If it's the later then no, it's no one's buisses how other players choose to play the game as long as the skill ceiling is roughly the same. Being "dumbed down" doesn't mean that a buld is "OP" just like how being overly complicated to play doesn't mean that a buld isn't "OP". What makes a build OP is the ability to overpower the rest. If something isn't capable of objectively performing better then the rest it's not OP, simple as that.

 

Except that it's a multiplayer game. And while nobody can tell you what to play, they're in their full right to not want your complex, underperforming build in their party because nobody is obliged to carry you either.

 

Also no, OP doesn't mean highest performance, it means broken risk/reward.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> they're in their full right to not want your complex, underperforming build

Then the problem isn't with the "dumbed down" builds but with A-Net not bringing the underpowered / overpowered stuff on par with the rest.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Also no, OP doesn't mean highest performance, it means broken risk/reward.

OP means overpowered... if X isn't outperforming Y then it's not "overpowering" the competition.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > they're in their full right to not want your complex, underperforming build

> Then the problem isn't with the "dumbed down" builds but with A-Net not bringing the underpowered / overpowered stuff on par with the rest.

 

Wrong. The players will **always** prefer to be safe. Taking an easy, overperforming build is leaps and bounds safer than taking a complex, underperforming one. Hence, the need for the complexity to have *some* impact on performance. Because this, unlike player behavior, you **can** change.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > they're in their full right to not want your complex, underperforming build

> > Then the problem isn't with the "dumbed down" builds but with A-Net not bringing the underpowered / overpowered stuff on par with the rest.

>

> Wrong. The players will **always** prefer to be safe. Taking an easy, overperforming build is leaps and bounds safer than taking a complex, underperforming one. Hence, the need for the complexity to have *some* impact on performance. Because this, unlike player behavior, you **can** change.

 

If all players "always" prefered safe, blood wells reaper and condi heal scourges would be every dps slot instead of mostly unwanted

[steki.1478]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > they're in their full right to not want your complex, underperforming build

> > Then the problem isn't with the "dumbed down" builds but with A-Net not bringing the underpowered / overpowered stuff on par with the rest.

>

> Wrong. The players will **always** prefer to be safe. Taking an easy, overperforming build is leaps and bounds safer than taking a complex, underperforming one. Hence, the need for the complexity to have *some* impact on performance. Because this, unlike player behavior, you **can** change.

 

Pugs will, experienced people won't, they'll always want the burstiest build no matter how complex it is. You pick your own groups depending on your skill and your class choice.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Wrong. The players will **always** prefer to be safe.

No they don't. Ignoring the fact that this is not even an argument related to the context at hand, I've seen many people saying that playing X is to dull for them and they'd rather play something more demanding. When it comes to "not carrying other players" people don't give a c**p about how "complex" your build is, if its performance is on par with these "easy2play" builds then nobody cares (at all).

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Taking an easy, overperforming build is leaps and bounds safer than taking a complex, underperforming one. Hence, the need for the complexity to have some impact on performance.

If something is "on par" with the rest it's per definition not "overperforming" / "underperforming".