Target distance meter

[Elaundo.7230]

It's probably been asked before but is there any thoughts from the devs to out a distance meter on targets? I've seen other MMOs implement this with success (across different levels of terrain, etc). Eventually I'll get a feel for 600 meters or whatever, but as a new player it's tough to gauge starting out.

[sigur.9453]

in case you didn´t know, there is a thin red line below your skill/s that indicates that the target is NOT in the range of said skill.

[Elaundo.7230]

That's helpful, Sigur! Appreciate the info.

 

Still think it'd be helpful to have the information displayed. It's obviously available so don't see this being a huge lift for a dev. :)

[Curunen.8729]

Actually this would be really cool to have a target range number indicator somewhere on the UI.

[Elaundo.7230]

Right. In my experience, it's useful to have it next to the target health bar.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Elaundo.7230" said:

> That's helpful, Sigur! Appreciate the info.

>

> Still think it'd be helpful to have the information displayed. It's obviously available so don't see this being a huge lift for a dev. :)

 

If too much effort is spent monitoring the UI, people will end up ignoring the battle field. We're already at the point where more time is spent looking at the UI to juggle everything that needs upkeep (resources, boons timers, conditions, etc), and its starting to interfere with simple things, like watching for attack tells and reading environmental mechanics. Even if they did show indicators in numbers, people would complain about having to compare numbers to ranges, and that each skill should have a marker on the target to tell you when its in range. Some people's end game is something thats played completely through the UI, and this being one of the few games thats managed to minimize that would be a loss.

 

I would even counter the whole "preferences' argument,w in that just adding stacking options to everything is a lazy way to address an issue that needs either player acclimation or a better UI design. The reason WoW essentially demands a custom UI, is because the Devs don't have to address it themselves this way. And with every rework or expansion, the UI takes up more and more of the screen to keep the 100+ things you need to monitor in glancing distance. And it boggles me how people demand everything be made as simple and idiot proof as possible, yet in most games they play, they demand more thing to load down their attention.... until its overloaded, and sudden its the Dev's fault for making the whole thing "garbage".

 

Anyway....... there are options that are supposed to be default to address things that cause skill misfires, or making sure you the map cooperates. Lock Ground Target to max skill range, Show skill Recharge, and show all usable object names. It still confuses me how the first one wasn't there from the start, and the last one bugs me, because of a shift in level design that made it almost mandatory to find certain objects.

[Feanor.2358]

BGDM used to have this, so it is clearly possible, but arc doesn't so I guess the devs don't want the exact distance to be available.

[Game of Bones.8975]

There are target cross-hairs for jumping in Silverwastes and for some AoE attacks. It's possible, but not likely. I know I'd use it.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> While no one HAS been banned, it doesn't mean that it is not a bannable offense.

Actually, in this case, it literally means that ANet does not think it's a problem If it were, they would have told TACO's developer and the feature would be removed.

 

 

****

People keep parsing "no gameplay advantage" to mean whatever they don't like is _out_, whatever they do like is _in_. It's not a hard & fast rule; it's a rule of thumb, to help people recognize on their own that some things are never going to be permitted.

 

The guideline doesn't mean "any advantage at all," it means being able to do things that cannot reasonably done without the feature. Here are other things that offer an advantage and won't get anyone suspended: using a DPS meter, using a build template tool, using an overlay that shows locations|paths|distances, using an overlay that shows the presence of guidlies or friends, using an overlay that shows timers for mechanics or boss events.

 

Here's what ANet has been on record as saying they will suspend or have suspended: autoclickers, macros that allow the player to step away from the keyboard, macros for rotations (e.g. sudden bursts).

 

****

My speculation is that ANet is okay with an overlay that shows range circles center around you, but not with something that shows distance-to-target. I've never been sure why they don't want such conveniences in the game, but it's been a consistent theme of their since before launch.

 

 

[rng.1024]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > While no one HAS been banned, it doesn't mean that it is not a bannable offense.

> Actually, in this case, it literally means that ANet does not think it's a problem If it were, they would have told TACO's developer and the feature would be removed.

>

>

> ****

> People keep parsing "no gameplay advantage" to mean whatever they don't like is _out_, whatever they do like is _in_. It's not a hard & fast rule; it's a rule of thumb, to help people recognize on their own that some things are never going to be permitted.

>

> The guideline doesn't mean "any advantage at all," it means being able to do things that cannot reasonably done without the feature. Here are other things that offer an advantage and won't get anyone suspended: using a DPS meter, using a build template tool, using an overlay that shows locations|paths|distances, using an overlay that shows the presence of guidlies or friends, using an overlay that shows timers for mechanics or boss events.

>

> Here's what ANet has been on record as saying they will suspend or have suspended: autoclickers, macros that allow the player to step away from the keyboard, macros for rotations (e.g. sudden bursts).

>

> ****

> My speculation is that ANet is okay with an overlay that shows range circles center around you, but not with something that shows distance-to-target. I've never been sure why they don't want such conveniences in the game, but it's been a consistent theme of their since before launch.

>

>

 

I urge you to reread the thread.

 

While anet won't take action against certain 3rd party software, doesn't mean said programs won't include certain features that goes against anet's rules of conduct. Then I it's up to anet whether they dis/approve of it and all it's features publicly, but in my experience they favor the playerbase if there are many users of it. This is a privilige based on trust. If you then use said feature and provide proof of it - you break that trust and they can (and most of the time) will take action.

 

So when anet says "use at own risk", it means they won't outright ban the use of the 3rd party software, either because alot of the playerbase use it or it's mostly helpful (like a mouse overlay that just magnifies mechanics that are already in place and available to everybody within the core game). And they can't punish you for using something you didn't know was punishable, with the SOLE exception being if it goes against their Rules of Conduct which we all should be familiar with by now. The most important point being not using 3rd party software that gives you a gameplay advantage over other players.

 

I want all to enjoy the game, so if you haven't read them yet I suggest you put a little time aside, this way we can avoid future mistakes:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Rules_of_Conduct/Mirror

 

These are the rules for content creators, naturally if their software don't pass, anyone using it will be at risk:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-content-terms-of-use/

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> I urge you to reread the thread.

And I urge you to re-read what ANet has actually posted on the topic.

 

> While anet won't take action against certain 3rd party software, doesn't mean said programs won't include certain features that goes against anet's rules of conduct. Then I it's up to anet whether they dis/approve of it and all it's features publicly, but in my experience they favor the playerbase if there are many users of it. This is a privilige based on trust. If you then use said feature and provide proof of it - you break that trust and they can (and most of the time) will take action.

 

This misleading the way it's phrased above. If a 3rd party software includes features that go against ANet's ... anything (whether Code of Conduct or Terms of Service or User Agreement) and ANet takes a look, ANet will say so. And the independent software author will either remove that feature or risk their own account.

 

In particular, the feature that led to this digression, [TACO's range markers](http://www.gw2taco.com/2015/01/feature-list.html), [has been present](http://www.gw2taco.com/2016/02/) in that app [when it was reviewed by ANet](

).

 

Yes, the use & creation of 3rd party apps is a privilege that can be revoked at any time. In practice, however, ANet has yet to suspend anyone solely for their use of the app being discussed.

 

>

> So when anet says "use at own risk", it means they won't outright ban the use of the 3rd party software, either because alot of the playerbase use it or it's mostly helpful (like a mouse overlay that just magnifies mechanics that are already in place and available to everybody within the core game). And they can't punish you for using something you didn't know was punishable, with the SOLE exception being if it goes against their Rules of Conduct which we all should be familiar with by now. The most important point being not using 3rd party software that gives you a gameplay advantage over other players.

They have, in fact, punished over 1000 people who weren't aware that simply having certain programs running on your machine could get you in hot water. Lots of people use so-called cheatware programs to get past bugs in legacy single player games and those who did while GW2 was active (during a certain period of time) got 6 month suspensions, _regardless of whether they had used the programs on GW2_.

 

"Use at your own risk" means

* ANet won't fix problems causes by use of 3rd party software

* They won't troubleshoot issues that are related to the use of such software.

* They can't guarantee that the app "green lit" today will be acceptable tomorrow, which could put your account at risk.

* And in general, they reserve the right to decide how best protect their product, which includes changing their mind about enforcement details.

 

It **does not** mean that using a green-lit app is "risky," only that it's not backed up by ANet.

 

>

> I want all to enjoy the game, so if you haven't read them yet I suggest you put a little time aside, this way we can avoid future mistakes:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Rules_of_Conduct/Mirror

I, too, wish all to enjoy the game. Which is why I feel it's important to be accurate about what sort of issues have come up in the past.

 

 

>

> These are the rules for content creators, naturally if their software don't pass, anyone using it will be at risk:

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-content-terms-of-use/

 

The main point I want to emphasize is that the app feature in question, TACO's range markers have been deemed acceptable by ANet. It's not a new feature that ANet hasn't had a chance to vet; it's an existing tool that has already been reviewed.

[Vornollo.5182]

I personally think that part of learning your class, includes learning the range of your skills...

Game's easy enough as it is for ranged gameplay especially...

[rng.1024]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > I urge you to reread the thread.

> And I urge you to re-read what ANet has actually posted on the topic.

>

> > While anet won't take action against certain 3rd party software, doesn't mean said programs won't include certain features that goes against anet's rules of conduct. Then I it's up to anet whether they dis/approve of it and all it's features publicly, but in my experience they favor the playerbase if there are many users of it. This is a privilige based on trust. If you then use said feature and provide proof of it - you break that trust and they can (and most of the time) will take action.

>

> This misleading the way it's phrased above. If a 3rd party software includes features that go against ANet's ... anything (whether Code of Conduct or Terms of Service or User Agreement) and ANet takes a look, ANet will say so. And the independent software author will either remove that feature or risk their own account.

>

> In particular, the feature that led to this digression, [TACO's range markers](http://www.gw2taco.com/2015/01/feature-list.html), [has been present](http://www.gw2taco.com/2016/02/) in that app [when it was reviewed by ANet](

).

>

> Yes, the use & creation of 3rd party apps is a privilege that can be revoked at any time. In practice, however, ANet has yet to suspend anyone solely for their use of the app being discussed.

>

> >

> > So when anet says "use at own risk", it means they won't outright ban the use of the 3rd party software, either because alot of the playerbase use it or it's mostly helpful (like a mouse overlay that just magnifies mechanics that are already in place and available to everybody within the core game). And they can't punish you for using something you didn't know was punishable, with the SOLE exception being if it goes against their Rules of Conduct which we all should be familiar with by now. The most important point being not using 3rd party software that gives you a gameplay advantage over other players.

> They have, in fact, punished over 1000 people who weren't aware that simply having certain programs running on your machine could get you in hot water. Lots of people use so-called cheatware programs to get past bugs in legacy single player games and those who did while GW2 was active (during a certain period of time) got 6 month suspensions, _regardless of whether they had used the programs on GW2_.

>

> "Use at your own risk" means

> * ANet won't fix problems causes by use of 3rd party software

> * They won't troubleshoot issues that are related to the use of such software.

> * They can't guarantee that the app "green lit" today will be acceptable tomorrow, which could put your account at risk.

> * And in general, they reserve the right to decide how best protect their product, which includes changing their mind about enforcement details.

>

> It **does not** mean that using a green-lit app is "risky," only that it's not backed up by ANet.

>

> >

> > I want all to enjoy the game, so if you haven't read them yet I suggest you put a little time aside, this way we can avoid future mistakes:

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Rules_of_Conduct/Mirror

> I, too, wish all to enjoy the game. Which is why I feel it's important to be accurate about what sort of issues have come up in the past.

>

>

> >

> > These are the rules for content creators, naturally if their software don't pass, anyone using it will be at risk:

> > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-content-terms-of-use/

>

> The main point I want to emphasize is that the app feature in question, TACO's range markers have been deemed acceptable by ANet. It's not a new feature that ANet hasn't had a chance to vet; it's an existing tool that has already been reviewed.

 

Like you said, it's all about that greenlight from anet, which to my knowledge hasn't been directly given to either taco or arc, they have only been omitted from the published blacklist after the banwave. Just because anet doesn't endorse it don't mean people won't use it. And here is where to me it seems they look at the potential damage (consider the % of the playerbase who uses arc) before they swing the ban hammer.

 

Now I don't claim to know how template swapping works, but I imagine it's with the press of a button. Or even, outside of combat. Let's say player A and player B gets ooc for 1 second, this allows player A (who has it) to do something player B can't possibly do given he needs to allocate and reset his traits manually - just not doable in the same timeframe.

 

Another thing is arc's dps meter is simply innocent, as it only shows stats without tweaking anything. This might be endorsed by anet. If my assumption is correct, you need to download a separate file in order to get arc templates? Even though it is published by the same developer, this does not mean anet endorses the template swapping.

 

I fully agree with the banwave, as the programs could potentially be used to exploit the game. Sure they haven't suspended anyone (that we know of) only for the use of specific software like this, but if you showcase it they will take action. Again I urge you to reread this thread top to bottom.

 

Not claiming that using a 3rd party software (with the exception of known tools) will result in a ban, and if anet greenlights something of course you can safely use it. As I said earlier, sometimes the benefit and coverage of software like Taco outweighs the potential harm it can cause, and as long as anet doesn't publicly say it's fully supported I still believe that they act on trust. The moment you give them cause (proof), then it becomes an issue.

 

All that being said, and to get back to the topic at hand, I agree that anet have been consistent since release when it comes to distance measuring, and I trust they have their reasons. Incidentally in order to minimize possible exploits as there might be easier ways to collect this data.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> Like you said, it's all about that greenlight from anet, which to my knowledge hasn't been directly given to either taco or arc, they have only been omitted from the published blacklist after the banwave.

Nope, both apps have been an explicit green light.

 

> Now I don't claim to know how template swapping works, but I imagine it's with the press of a button. Or even, outside of combat. Let's say player A and player B gets ooc for 1 second, this allows player A (who has it) to do something player B can't possibly do given he needs to allocate and reset his traits manually - just not doable in the same timeframe.

It can potential take a couple of buttons, but you're correct: it's faster than doing it manually. Which is the entire point: the reason people want build load outs is to be able to swap gear and skills and straits with less fuss.

 

And yes, that was part of ArcDPS when it was greenlit.

 

>

> Another thing is arc's dps meter is simply innocent, as it only shows stats without tweaking anything. This might be endorsed by anet. If my assumption is correct, you need to download a separate file in order to get arc templates? Even though it is published by the same developer, this does not mean anet endorses the template swapping.

Again, no.

 

 

>

> I fully agree with the banwave, as the programs could potentially be used to exploit the game. Sure they haven't suspended anyone (that we know of) only for the use of specific software like this, but if you showcase it they will take action. Again I urge you to reread this thread top to bottom.

Again, before you urge someone else to read up, please, _please_ take the time to do some reading yourself. If you had, you'd find the actual posts from the devs about the apps.

 

And at least read the posts to which you were responding: my point was that ANet not only can change their mind about the rules, they have done so. I don't personally object to people being suspended for having a cheatware program open while running the game, whether it gets used or not. What I said was that it wasn't against the rules as stated by ANet previously. (Originally, it was "don't use it on the game." Now it's "don't even have it running.")

 

>

> All that being said, and to get back to the topic at hand, I agree that anet have been consistent since release when it comes to distance measuring, and I trust they have their reasons. Incidentally in order to minimize possible exploits as there might be easier ways to collect this data.

So you agree that since TACO's feature that shows distance (as radii) from the player is ok? Since it's (a) part of TACO and (b) TACO has been greenlit by ANet?

 

[rng.1024]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > Like you said, it's all about that greenlight from anet, which to my knowledge hasn't been directly given to either taco or arc, they have only been omitted from the published blacklist after the banwave.

> Nope, both apps have been an explicit green light.

>

> > Now I don't claim to know how template swapping works, but I imagine it's with the press of a button. Or even, outside of combat. Let's say player A and player B gets ooc for 1 second, this allows player A (who has it) to do something player B can't possibly do given he needs to allocate and reset his traits manually - just not doable in the same timeframe.

> It can potential take a couple of buttons, but you're correct: it's faster than doing it manually. Which is the entire point: the reason people want build load outs is to be able to swap gear and skills and straits with less fuss.

>

> And yes, that was part of ArcDPS when it was greenlit.

>

> >

> > Another thing is arc's dps meter is simply innocent, as it only shows stats without tweaking anything. This might be endorsed by anet. If my assumption is correct, you need to download a separate file in order to get arc templates? Even though it is published by the same developer, this does not mean anet endorses the template swapping.

> Again, no.

>

>

> >

> > I fully agree with the banwave, as the programs could potentially be used to exploit the game. Sure they haven't suspended anyone (that we know of) only for the use of specific software like this, but if you showcase it they will take action. Again I urge you to reread this thread top to bottom.

> Again, before you urge someone else to read up, please, _please_ take the time to do some reading yourself. If you had, you'd find the actual posts from the devs about the apps.

>

> And at least read the posts to which you were responding: my point was that ANet not only can change their mind about the rules, they have done so. I don't personally object to people being suspended for having a cheatware program open while running the game, whether it gets used or not. What I said was that it wasn't against the rules as stated by ANet previously. (Originally, it was "don't use it on the game." Now it's "don't even have it running.")

>

> >

> > All that being said, and to get back to the topic at hand, I agree that anet have been consistent since release when it comes to distance measuring, and I trust they have their reasons. Incidentally in order to minimize possible exploits as there might be easier ways to collect this data.

> So you agree that since TACO's feature that shows distance (as radii) from the player is ok? Since it's (a) part of TACO and (b) TACO has been greenlit by ANet?

>

 

Don't worry, I am not claiming your are wrong on the topic as you certainly are one of the more knowledgeable forum users here.

 

And fair enough, I have done some reading so I know that taco and arc have both been accepted by anet, and given how template swapping is advantageous I can only assume it's because anet will bake in the feature down the road flr everyone to use.

 

As for them changing their stance and banning us for only having a program on our computer running - this is all part of their user agreement so 100% their perogative. Also probably the only way they can legally detect them. Here I was simply telling you my stance on your statement, as you felt it necessary to include in your post like I didn't know or that it had relevance, didn't mean to override your point in any way and it was received first read.

 

Actually to that end I found 2 quotes that directly tell us what is and isn't allowed, in a previous post of yours:

 

"We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

 

"You are correct. Combat data is defined as any information that is created due to the usage of skills or impact on players due to skill usage (by the player/s or an outside source)."

 

I think we both can say that this don't apply for a certain TACO feature.

 

Look, I know I might be wrong on many points but if I am so are alot of others which is why this discourse is beneficial. You clearly have a handle on the public statements of anet and everything Guild Wars 2 judging by your forum activity and posts, which are always a good read.

 

But the only reason I replied to your post to begin with is because the forum moderators have been visiting this thread, and this is why I have been urging you to read it again because there might have been some alterations. If you remember the original thread, you can quickly figure out why things were said or not said, and this is important to the discussion at hand.