Lily.1935 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Scourge is no longer even a fringe viable option for Raids and fractals. They've lost base damage and Epidemic has been cut in usability. We've already started seeing a ramp up of "Necros will be kicked" once again because of these changes and considering how close the scourge was to the edge before hand this seemingly small nerf has pushed them out. So I'm going to make a few demands for the necromancer. I say demands, but that's more tongue and cheek with the devs. I don't actually have leverage with them. If I did the necromancer would have never gotten to the state its in now. Actually it would have never been in this state. This post is scourge focused. I will not be making my demands on core necromancer or reaper. Only Scourge. 1. **Manifest Sand Shade Should last 25 seconds as opposed to the 20 seconds it does now.** Maintaining these are extremely important and its a difficult balance which has hurt our DPS for far too long. This needs to be increased. 2. **Manifest Sand Shade Needs to inflict 2 stacks of torment rather than 1.** The way scourge is balanced with life force and generation it is designed as a bursty condi spec. The Torment duration is already painfully low so 2 stacks shouldn't be unreasonable. 3. **Remove the arming delay from all shade abilities.** This should have never hit PvE. This harms any sort of Support build the scourge could have and considering how much you need to work for your life force to maintain it, the required gear, burn out nature of scourge this only adds a further problem that they should never have had. 4. **Remove Torment and Crippling from Sand Savant and replace it with applying alacrity to allies on shade skill use.** Scourge has no real way to benefit from that concentration they get. And this would be a little extra that they could use. 1 second would be enough of this along with their might this could go at least a small distance in pushing them into the support scene. 5. **While using Sand Savant Desert shroud should pulse barrier to allies as opposed to torment on enemies.** We need more Barrier application and this is something that should happen. Sand Savant shouldn't be a major Area denial trait. It should be support. 6. **Nefarious Favor should convert 2 conditions into boons once again.** DO IT! Give us this back. It wasn't overwhelming in PvE. 7. **Increase Oppressive Collapse's might radius to 360.** 8. **Increase Dessicate's Might to 7 stacks and its radius to 600. Have it gain 5% life force and an additional 3% per target struck.** 9. **Drop Sand Swell's cool down to 30 seconds and increase its range to 1,200. Fix the pathing issue so it can be used to get up on platforms.** 10. **Have Serpent Siphon send out its barrier packets equal to the allies in the area as well as foes.** Doubt this would make the skill good. Its just really really bad. 11. **Drop the cooldown of Ghastly Breach to 60 seconds and make it pulse fury for allies in addition to its other effects.** 12. **Change Blood as Sand from granting selfish damage reduction to reducing damage to allies that are under the effect of your barrier by 10%** Bonus Demand for Necromancer **Remove the cool down from Dhuumfire in PvE!** Note that these are my PvE demands. I don't expect or want these changes to PvP or WvW. Except for really the Sand Savant changes and a few choice other's. But let me know what you think. I want scourge to be a bursty condi user as it used to be and a potent support spec. But not both at the same time. Give it to me arena net! I don't want to be back in 2013 where I was getting kicked from Dungeons. Not again! Not with raids and fractals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! Joking aside. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I really like the sand savant change. It has always been a pvp/wvw trait (or for the lazy, like me), but turning into an actual support trait really boosts its viability. Scourge could easily become an alternate might/heal bot. The arming timer needs to go as well, since that was a pvp/wvw problem. I'm not too sure about the additional torment stack however. I'd prefer anet buffs our core condition application, so that we don't go back to the PoF release whereby Scourge was superior in every way to reaper or core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? > > Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! > > Joking aside. Thoughts? Irenio's favourite charr pluchie or Gail's cat minipet would probably more effective as hostage. ;) Anyway, For me the main issue of scourge's shroud skills is the "manifest sand shade" proc on all skills. Thing that you seem to keep. Otherwise, with the premise of "manifest sand shade" proc removed, I'd support: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12 Edit: I could even support 1 and 2 with the "manifest sand shade" proc removed from other shroud skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? > > > > Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! > > > > Joking aside. Thoughts? > > Irenio's favourite charr pluchie or Gail's cat minipet would probably more effective as hostage. ;) > > Anyway, For me the main issue of scourge's shroud skills is the "manifest sand shade" proc on all skills. Thing that you seem to keep. > Otherwise, with the premise of "manifest sand shade" proc removed, I'd support: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12 > > Edit: I could even support 1 and 2 with the "manifest sand shade" proc removed from other shroud skills. Scourge needs that bonus on its other skills. Those skills don't deal enough without that ability. Plus it would make the bonus of Alacrity pretty meaningless. Personally I like that design aspect of it and this is only for PvE which it wouldn't push us over the top in DPS. Especially when you consider that life for gen can be pretty finicky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? > > > > > > Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! > > > > > > Joking aside. Thoughts? > > > > Irenio's favourite charr pluchie or Gail's cat minipet would probably more effective as hostage. ;) > > > > Anyway, For me the main issue of scourge's shroud skills is the "manifest sand shade" proc on all skills. Thing that you seem to keep. > > Otherwise, with the premise of "manifest sand shade" proc removed, I'd support: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12 > > > > Edit: I could even support 1 and 2 with the "manifest sand shade" proc removed from other shroud skills. > > Scourge needs that bonus on its other skills. Those skills don't deal enough without that ability. Plus it would make the bonus of Alacrity pretty meaningless. Personally I like that design aspect of it and this is only for PvE which it wouldn't push us over the top in DPS. Especially when you consider that life for gen can be pretty finicky. I understand but that's this aspect that really make scourge a problem in PvP/WvW. And anet don't split mechanisms across gamemode. For me as long as the manifest sand shade proc exist each and every one of your suggestions related to shroud skills are off limit and break balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Now is certainly the time to make suggestions. Arenanet will be watching how the balance changes shake out for the next balance in a few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? > > > > > > > > Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! > > > > > > > > Joking aside. Thoughts? > > > > > > Irenio's favourite charr pluchie or Gail's cat minipet would probably more effective as hostage. ;) > > > > > > Anyway, For me the main issue of scourge's shroud skills is the "manifest sand shade" proc on all skills. Thing that you seem to keep. > > > Otherwise, with the premise of "manifest sand shade" proc removed, I'd support: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12 > > > > > > Edit: I could even support 1 and 2 with the "manifest sand shade" proc removed from other shroud skills. > > > > Scourge needs that bonus on its other skills. Those skills don't deal enough without that ability. Plus it would make the bonus of Alacrity pretty meaningless. Personally I like that design aspect of it and this is only for PvE which it wouldn't push us over the top in DPS. Especially when you consider that life for gen can be pretty finicky. > > I understand but that's this aspect that really make scourge a problem in PvP/WvW. And anet don't split mechanisms across gamemode. For me as long as the manifest sand shade proc exist each and every one of your suggestions related to shroud skills are off limit and break balance. Except it isn't. And not only that it harms internal synergy. Also you must note that this is a PvE suggestion post not a general suggestion post. Its in the title. Scourge needs more synergy with the core spec not less. What you're asking for is less synergy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > Except it isn't. And not only that it harms internal synergy. Also you must note that this is a PvE suggestion post not a general suggestion post. Its in the title. Scourge needs more synergy with the core spec not less. What you're asking for is less synergy. That's your opinion, and I expressed mine :) . You asked for thought and I gave you mine. You see less synergy where I see less issues for the game as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > Except it isn't. And not only that it harms internal synergy. Also you must note that this is a PvE suggestion post not a general suggestion post. Its in the title. Scourge needs more synergy with the core spec not less. What you're asking for is less synergy. > > That's your opinion, and I expressed mine :) . You asked for thought and I gave you mine. You see less synergy where I see less issues for the game as a whole. So do I. But the issue with the shades has always been number of conditions on top of the large area. Crippling is a large problem than the torment, and this has always been the case. But Arena net seems not to think so even though experience players can tell you this. We're looking at issues beyond just the Dhuumfire one. You also have unyielding blast as well as reaper's might. The point of these traits is so that it can be spammed. And their power is scaled for auto attacks. But because the scourge doesn't have a shroud auto these skills would be significantly weaker if the other 5 skills couldn't trigger them. And I don't mean by a little bit either. Now if they were stronger, say Unyielding blast giving 8 stacks of vuln, dhuumfire giving 3 stacks of burning and reaper's might giving 5 stacks of might on scourge only, maybe MAYBE I'd agree to it. But still, that pidgin-holds the scourge a bit more. But AGAIN! This is talking about PvE not PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Lilly i do agree with some of you ideas to put some support back into scourge such as your change to **Blood as Sand** and adding **Alacrity** but i feel like some of the things you want to revert such as **Nefarious Favor** will not help get scourge to a better spot The way i see it anet has a few options here. Revert things to make up for the loss in damage which will still leave scourge in kind of a bad spot and likely undergo another revert in the future which will put it back into the current spot its in. **This is a bandaid pipe dream that wont last past the next x pack** or Strip even more from it now and literally make it a super support with very minimal damage. Remove **manifest sand shade** all together and only have the effects proc from the caster with the current larger radius that **sand savant** provides as a base. **Shade skills** all together become raw supporting abilities. Basically you don't play scourge for damage with this kind of rework. You play with support and nothing more as your main objective. Expect to deal little damage. Change MSS into a new skill that pulses from the caster with ammo charges that does something "supporty". or Have the traits that change the **Scourge profession mechanic** dynamically so that each trait causes it to do something other than drop an aoe on the floor for example - Have one trait change the skills to it to tethers that effect allies or foes near the scourge - Have one trait change the skills to just a single outward burst much as they are now but only form the casters position - Have one trait change the skills simple full set of shroud skills - Perhaps this would be the go to damage trait for scourge removing most of its support prowess. (mind you this are stupid simplistic examples think like daredevil dodges but for the profession mechanic. ) Neco's base is kind of outdated and bad Scourge was a basic design that was overloaded from the top to compensate and this lead to inevitable balance problems. From the start Scourge could have been so much more but the lack of options and creativity in its basis design is whats leading to its downfall. Fact is for it to really shine again at this point it needs a creative rework from the ground up and thats just looking at scourge it self not the entire base of necro. They did say they had more reworks planned in the future hopefully necro/ reaper/ scourge is in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insidion the Insane.9752 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Just reduce Demonic Lore's ICD to 1s or make Strength of Undeath improve damage and condition damage while above 50% LF by 7%. Scourge's PvE damage problems solved. https://imgur.com/a/26X6O4K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlinvf.1358 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > And who exactly are you holding hostage to get these demands? > > > > > > Uh.. You! *Takes Lahmia Hostage* There, Mha ha ha ha! > > > > > > Joking aside. Thoughts? > > > > Irenio's favourite charr pluchie or Gail's cat minipet would probably more effective as hostage. ;) > > > > Anyway, For me the main issue of scourge's shroud skills is the "manifest sand shade" proc on all skills. Thing that you seem to keep. > > Otherwise, with the premise of "manifest sand shade" proc removed, I'd support: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12 > > > > Edit: I could even support 1 and 2 with the "manifest sand shade" proc removed from other shroud skills. > > Scourge needs that bonus on its other skills. Those skills don't deal enough without that ability. Plus it would make the bonus of Alacrity pretty meaningless. Personally I like that design aspect of it and this is only for PvE which it wouldn't push us over the top in DPS. Especially when you consider that life for gen can be pretty finicky. Which partly why Shade balance is such a mess right now. They built it in a way that encourages you to shade spam, but had to double back on that when it overtook the WvW meta, and never gave it a second design pass to address the underlying strategy. Like how DE needed Stealth to use its Malice, only to realize that stray attacks disrupts the ability to use it due to how reveal mechanics work. It was literally fighting itself because of Auto attack. Sand Sage should changed to a Temporary buff, and apply on use of Shade skills. How the buff will stack or scale is definitely needing much discussion, allowing it to work with some independence from Shade uptime gives more room to change how the shade is meant to be used on the field. Sadistic Searing should be changed to "next hit with shade skill", so it adds to the Shade's burst dynamic. Many of the important traits center around summoning shades frequently.... but now they're trying to punish shade spamming, without some kind of alternative strategy to use them with. Especially in WvW, where their life span is cut in half, and the recharge rate makes keeping it on point insanely difficult after the first 10 seconds or so (with or without savant traited). While we're at it. Blood as Sand should give 7% damage reduction when a shade is active, and double it while in the Radius of one of your Shades. This would be a minor counter play vector for PvP, since the current setup gets full benefits, but effectively being 2 Area denials with practically 100% uptime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceit.7619 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I just have one 'demand' for Scourge. Give. them. a. support. weapon. If you are going to gut them as a dps, make them a viable support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardRider.2980 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 They need to seriously skill split alot of necro skills. What is needed in PvE might be OP in wvw and or pvp.. so split them already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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