Dead eye rifle vs Ranger longbow

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Meh, that's just tooltip discrepancies then or differences in the coding for projectile flight. Certainly not that high a priority.

 

Let’s put it this way “1200” Range longbows are further distance than 1500 Range Rifle on Deadeye, which a “1200” Range ability was also used in that video.

 

It takes some mental gymnastics to think 1200 is greater than 1500 or 1500 is greater than 1500.

[Obtena.7952]

Yeah I get it ... I'm not sure what the cause for concern is. Incorrect tooltips aren't exactly game breaking.

[Jack Redline.5379]

imo we should have trait in DE which would give us ability to shoot further according to us possition on the battle field

I mean if you stand in tower you should be able to shoot further = basically idea of sniper (since you have better view if we are gonna take that as parameter to increase distance)

So the ranges would be the same but if you climb somewhere up and kneel there you could camp further imo it is logical as far as gaming goes.

in PVP it is possible in WVW it is posible in PVE it is possible

There are spots where you can safely kneel and be higher tahn anyone out of reach of Shadowstep or ports

i would say lets go for this ^

[Vayne.8563]

I'll just leave this here

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27800/so-longbow-is-bad-dps-right#latest

 

It is unfair. The rifle is a viable weapon for DPS the longbow isn't. If anything it's the ranger that's disadvantaged. If you want more range, take less damage, I say.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Yeah I get it ... I'm not sure what the cause for concern is. Incorrect tooltips aren't exactly game breaking.

 

Incorrect tooltip? Yeah ok, or it’s the game not working as it should again some mental gymnastics needed there.

[Dreadshow.9320]

> @"Khailyn.6248" said:

> Difference between deadeye rifle and ranger longbow, a ranger longbow isnt 2 shotting people from stealth. there has to be compromise to balance them somewhere. Moving deaths judgement from kneel 4 to stealth skill gave deadeyes more mobility while keeping their burst, but they sacrifice range. If deadeyes had high burst, high mobility AND the longest range, there would be no reason to play ranger except to heal or play with mediocre pets that keep getting nerfed.

 

And why does a fighter using a longbow can shoot that arrow further than he can shoot with that rifle do the same or equivalent damage with unlimited ammo? Why did someone came up with the rifle when the longbow was more serviceable? Some Charr engineer woke up one day and said I'll make a weapon that uses gun powder a scarce resource to shoot these pellets with less velocity then a bow can fire an arrow but makes a nice bang sound, I'll be a millionaire...

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Yeah I get it ... I'm not sure what the cause for concern is. Incorrect tooltips aren't exactly game breaking.

>

> Incorrect tooltip? Yeah ok, or it’s the game not working as it should again some mental gymnastics needed there.

 

Well it could be either but regardless, we aren't talking about game breaking or significantly influential numbers here that require anyone to conclude it's vastly broken and needs immediate attention. Whether one or the other is 1200 or 1500 and comparing them doesn't even make sense. One is one thing, the other is the other. The comparison is completely contrived to justify the change.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Yeah I get it ... I'm not sure what the cause for concern is. Incorrect tooltips aren't exactly game breaking.

> >

> > Incorrect tooltip? Yeah ok, or it’s the game not working as it should again some mental gymnastics needed there.

>

> Well it could be either but regardless, we aren't talking about game breaking or significantly influential numbers here that require anyone to conclude it's vastly broken and needs immediate attention. Whether one or the other is 1200 or 1500 and comparing them doesn't even make sense. One is one thing, the other is the other. The comparison is completely contrived to justify the change.

 

No they are supposed to be equal Range on the Ranger LB and the Deadeye 1500 Skills, or why even bother posting ranges or having ranges to begin with if the 1200 Range longbows are further Range than the 1500 Range weapon?

 

Again it’s pretty simple 1500 = 1500 and 1500 >1200.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> I'll just leave this here

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27800/so-longbow-is-bad-dps-right#latest

That's a completely different topic, this one is about "the rifle should have more range than the LB" while the one you linked is about "the LB having more range than the numbers suggest".

 

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> It is unfair.

It's not unfair, unlike the rifle longbow isn't meant for single target DPS. It's meant for AoE kiting which is why it has knockback, crippling effects and pricing arrows.

[Obtena.7952]

Again, there could be error; we have seen this happen before ... and they were tooltip inconcistencies. I'm not dismissing any possibility, just because it makes a good reason to change something. I will say that comparisons between classes and their skills make little sense. What does a skill parameter on one class have to do with any other? If Rifle is supposed to be 1500 and it doesn't, I'm not dismissing anything in particular and using that to say something needs a buff or a nerf ...

 

TLDR: it simply sounds like there is error. An error isn't a reason to justify a buff or a nerf. It just needs to be corrected to whatever it's intended thing is supposed to be. Ranger LBow whatever has nothing to do with any error on Deadeye Rifle Ranges.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Again, there could be error; we have seen this happen before ... and they were tooltip inconcistencies. I'm not dismissing any possibility, just because it makes a good reason to change something. I will say that comparisons between classes and their skills make little sense. What does a skill parameter on one class have to do with any other? If Rifle is supposed to be 1500 and it doesn't, I'm not dismissing anything in particular and using that to say something needs a buff or a nerf ...

>

> TLDR: it simply sounds like there is error. An error isn't a reason to justify a buff or a nerf. It just needs to be corrected to whatever it's intended thing is supposed to be. Ranger LBow whatever has nothing to do with any error on Deadeye Rifle Ranges.

 

No the inconsistency both are supposed to be 1500 Range weapons but clearly one is overperforming or one is underperforming, you use both to showcase the issue especially when 1200 Range skills are shooting further than 1500 Range Skills. And I doubt it’s a “tooltip error” since every Balance patch or the inception of the weapons they have had the designated 1200 or 1500 Range, nothing from Anet says they should be anything different.

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > I'll just leave this here

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27800/so-longbow-is-bad-dps-right#latest

> That's a completely different topic, this one is about "the rifle should have more range than the LB" while the one you linked is about "the LB having more range than the numbers suggest".

>

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > It is unfair.

> It's not unfair, unlike the rifle longbow isn't meant for single target DPS. It's meant for AoE kiting which is why it has knockback, crippling effects and pricing arrows.

 

That's sort of my point. Two different weapons on two different professions have different damage and range. Nothing to see here, folks, move along. There's more to a weapon besides range. Comparing two different professions with two different builds and situations. No one is thinking the long bow is a go to weapon for a ranger, at least no one that cares about numbers. To say that a generally inferior weapon has a longer range is not a valid complaint. If you want the same range, you have to take the other drawbacks as well.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> To say that a generally inferior weapon has a longer range is not a valid complaint. If you want the same range, you have to take the other drawbacks as well.

You're comparing apples to oranges, the drawback of the sniper rifle is the general lack of AoE. If you feel like the LB is underperforming in this regard then that's a completely different issue but that doesn't change the fact that the sniper class should be top tier in regards to sniping (which it clearly isn't) so the basic premise of this thread is still valid.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > To say that a generally inferior weapon has a longer range is not a valid complaint. If you want the same range, you have to take the other drawbacks as well.

> You're comparing apples to oranges, the drawback of the sniper rifle is the general lack of AoE. If you feel like the LB is underperforming in this regard then that's a completely different issue but that doesn't change the fact that the sniper class should be top tier in regards to sniping (which it clearly isn't) so the basic premise of this thread is still valid.

 

It would be OP. With teh damage it does you can't give it more range. The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

No not really, they're other factors besides damage and range which you're completely ignoring.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

> No not really, they're other factors besides damage and range which you're completely ignoring.

 

Still my point. The balance team isn't balancing on anyone's perspective, or what anyone thinks or feels. They're balancing on pure numbers. Changing one number to make something more advantageous might be okay in say PvE. It might be terrible in PvP or WvW though. If you have a weapon that can one shot certain professions, and you give it a longer range, you're screwing over other players, period end stop.

 

This isn't a contest on who an argue better. It's an explanation of possible considerations. You want to make the range long enough to snipe someone from a ridiculous distance you have to decrease it's damage, or you're going to get a lot of angry players.

[Vornollo.5182]

I'll just go ahead and quote myself from the extensive topic on this matter.

Although this OP does argue for buffs to DE Rifle, I think the gist of my comment still stands.

I also don't think that we should get more range. 1500's more than plenty, especially if we can get an even playing field in terms of Range.

 

> @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> I really don't understand the argument that some people are trying to make here...

> No, it's not just about buffing the DE Rifle.

> No, it's not just about nerfing the Rangers' Longbow.

>

> It's about making **everything** fair across the board.

> Give **everyone** the 15% Buffer, or give it to noone.

> Arcing projectiles have the benefit of avoiding certain LoS issues.

> Straight Projectiles somewhat compensate by Jumping prior to a shot.

>

> Noone is arguing that Arcing Projectiles and Straight projectiles shouldn't behave differently. In fact, it's good for gameplay diversity and flavour.

> But what **is** being argued, is that all "**Range**" should be treated equal.

> Either by everyone/everything getting the 15% buffer, or by noone/nothing having that 15% buffer.

> That's it, it's not about pointing fingers at classes or specific weapons or whatnot.

> It's about it simply being fair.

>

> It's about the 'Range', not the Projectile behaviour and it's certainly not about your personal profession.

> This Range bug affects more professions and more weapons/skills. We just want it to be **fair for everyone**.

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> The Deadeye needs to be buffed in relation to other rifle wielders. If that's your specialization, you should be AWESOME at it and tag foes at a much longer range than a person who uses the rifle as another tool. Kneeling is a much more stable platform than standing and should increase effective distance by 25-33% from similar standing shots. That way the character can stand off, out of normal range by a decent margin, and snipe away.

 

If only for Range. DE Rifle *damage* does not need a buff at all.

[Synstylae.2751]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

> > No not really, they're other factors besides damage and range which you're completely ignoring.

>

> Still my point. The balance team isn't balancing on anyone's perspective, or what anyone thinks or feels. They're balancing on pure numbers. Changing one number to make something more advantageous might be okay in say PvE. It might be terrible in PvP or WvW though. If you have a weapon that can one shot certain professions, and you give it a longer range, you're screwing over other players, period end stop.

>

> This isn't a contest on who an argue better. It's an explanation of possible considerations. You want to make the range long enough to snipe someone from a ridiculous distance you have to decrease it's damage, or you're going to get a lot of angry players.

 

sniping someone from ridiculous distance, just like ranger with longbow? you just played yourself

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> It would be OP. With teh damage it does you can't give it more range. The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

 

On paper, perhaps, but I don't believe this has much validity in practice.

 

First, look at the Ranger's Longbow. Rapid Fire and Barrage both have 1,500 range. They have damage coefficients of 3.75 and 4.8 respectively. That's without having to build malice. Yeah, they have cooldowns. So what? That's some BIG damage that can be used at the opening of any fight at extreme range. The Dragonhunter has True Shot on a 6-second cooldown with a 2.0 damage coefficient at 1,200 range. Heck, it even has invisible traps Dragon's Maw and Procession of Blades that can hit you from the other side of the map for 2.4 and a whopping 5.5 damage coefficients! Can you dodge any of these skills? Yes, but you can also dodge and/or block any and all Thief skills also. Remember the Ranger can also make all of its attacks unblockable for 6 seconds.

 

Secondly, Pistol/Pistol has heavily outperformed the Dagger due to the Might build up while offering survivability because the Thief can stay outside of the melee deathtrap. However hard Backstab hits, it simply doesn't hit hard enough to offset the extreme risk associated with melee. Should it outhit everything else? Yes. Does it? Not at all... especially without the Deadeye's malice build-up.

 

Personally, I say give the Dagger the most practical damage. Not just the numbers, but also the impact. The Thief needs to hit harder in melee without having to build up malice. I would say it needs to hit softer at range, but compared to everything else in the game, there's no way I'm going to give an inch.

 

Either way, the Ranger is too versatile to have such damage at range compared to the Thief. It has range, Stealth, mobility, unblockability, invulnerabilty, etc. The Thief doesn't have that versatility.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Synstylae.2751" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

> > > No not really, they're other factors besides damage and range which you're completely ignoring.

> >

> > Still my point. The balance team isn't balancing on anyone's perspective, or what anyone thinks or feels. They're balancing on pure numbers. Changing one number to make something more advantageous might be okay in say PvE. It might be terrible in PvP or WvW though. If you have a weapon that can one shot certain professions, and you give it a longer range, you're screwing over other players, period end stop.

> >

> > This isn't a contest on who an argue better. It's an explanation of possible considerations. You want to make the range long enough to snipe someone from a ridiculous distance you have to decrease it's damage, or you're going to get a lot of angry players.

>

> sniping someone from ridiculous distance, just like ranger with longbow? you just played yourself

 

Who can't one-shot someone. That's why we're talking about damage in the first place. Damage and range in this instance are directly related. The more people you can one shot the shorter your range has to be. This is the simplest balance logic there can be.

 

I didn't play myself at all, you're just quoting half the conversation. It's nice to want buffs. Not at the expense of the health of the game though.

[Zaviel.1245]

You can see the longbow ranger unless you walk with 10 FOV at all times, you usually don't see the deadeye if they know what they are doing.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Zaviel.1245" said:

> You can see the longbow ranger unless you walk with 10 FOV at all times, you usually don't see the deadeye if they know what they are doing.

 

Dead is dead whether you saw the killer or not.

 

Death's Judgment already has big tells, and a marked target has a big, red ring around them. If that's not enough of a tell, I don't know what is. The new Rifle Deadeye isn't a stealthy killer like the old one. Yes, there's a lot of Stealth, but there's a lot of Revealed skirmishing also.

 

If invisibility was the be-all-end-all, then the Thief would reign supreme in PvP. But as a fighter, it's a joke. The Ranger can hit harder faster at a longer range than even the Deadeye, and in melee, it can hit for 30k+ from Stealth in PvP with absolutely no tell.

 

Balance is completely lopsided in this game.

 

Not to mention that Rapid Fire takes a full TWO dodges to avoid, leaving only blocking/evading/invulnerability/Stealth for defense against everything else... accept the Ranger can go completely unblockable for 6 seconds. The closest the Thief has is Unload and Basilisk Venom... which Unload took a heavy hit this last patch.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> The closest the Thief has is Unload and Basilisk Venom...

And LB also has like twice the range of P/P while being overall a lot more consistent, going by the logic of "you can't have damage + range" LB would have to take a big damage or range nerf.

[Synstylae.2751]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Synstylae.2751" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > The damage absolutely has everything to do with the range in this case.

> > > > No not really, they're other factors besides damage and range which you're completely ignoring.

> > >

> > > Still my point. The balance team isn't balancing on anyone's perspective, or what anyone thinks or feels. They're balancing on pure numbers. Changing one number to make something more advantageous might be okay in say PvE. It might be terrible in PvP or WvW though. If you have a weapon that can one shot certain professions, and you give it a longer range, you're screwing over other players, period end stop.

> > >

> > > This isn't a contest on who an argue better. It's an explanation of possible considerations. You want to make the range long enough to snipe someone from a ridiculous distance you have to decrease it's damage, or you're going to get a lot of angry players.

> >

> > sniping someone from ridiculous distance, just like ranger with longbow? you just played yourself

>

> Who can't one-shot someone. That's why we're talking about damage in the first place. Damage and range in this instance are directly related. The more people you can one shot the shorter your range has to be. This is the simplest balance logic there can be.

>

> I didn't play myself at all, you're just quoting half the conversation. It's nice to want buffs. Not at the expense of the health of the game though.

 

If you think rifle deadeye is one-shotting people, then you are wrong. As far as one-shotting goes, i have seen screenshots where rangers crit 14k with the BASIC shot multiple times and thats pretty much from that broken 1800 range. Thats why i try avoid fighting rangers alone, i know my dmg is not enough while standing and ranger will outrange me if im kneeling. If you think thats "healthy" for the game, then there is no point having a conversation with you.