Change Svanir and Chieftan on Forest of Niflhel

[milego.4830]

Agreed. I hate that map with a passion because of people thinking that doing beast is a good thing. I even had people telling me that beast was worthy doing because of the buffs.

 

Nowadays, I don't even bother discuss it anymore with teammates.

 

And I think people are missing the most important point: having a objective that's NOT worthy doing is not a good design. Period. To tell that "people need to learn it's bad" is not the answer to the problem here. The problem is having a side objective which the best course of action 99% of the time is forget it is even there.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> @Phantaram Thanks for your video guide on d/d ele might rotations, I learned a lot from it.

>

> What I see here: A former ESL player asking ANET to change the game to suit "Pro League" playstyle. **ANET has followed that path before and it was unsuccessful.** I don't think it's a good idea here either.

>

> Nifhel is one of the maps I'm glad to get. **There are already too many maps with harsh game flipping mechanics. The new Capricorn is the most egregious.** Such mechanics overemphasize AOE and specific classes, like Scourge.

 

Every player who has a basic understanding of how conquest works will have an issue with this map. For some reason, the silver player mindset of "always kill the beasts" is an extremely big problem even in high plat.

 

So, you, a silver player, saying the map mechanic is fine is a perfect example of the point at hand. In no game is balancing around the bottom tier of players a good idea. There will always be someone worse.

 

Its simple math.

 

1. You cap home.

2. You go to beast.

3. You take 30 seconds to kill the beast.

4. Enemy decaps home.

5. You kill the beast and get 25 points.

6. You go back to home and fight the enemy on a neutral node.

 

Here, one of 3 things can happen.

 

1. You kill the enemy in under 1 minute.

- Result: Enemy team still gains insane value.

2. You kill the enemy in over 1 minute.

- Result: Enemy team gains even MORE value.

3. The 1v1 stalemates.

- Result: Enemy team gets insane amount of value for every second the 1v1 continues.

 

Do you understand why?

[Rufo.3716]

Just having an objective on the map that 99% of the time is only going to hurt your team is a bad thing.

 

1. It's easy to just run up and get the last hit and steal it.

2. You are wasting time trying to kill the beast while you could be contesting other nodes or decapping.

 

The only time somebody should even think about going beast is when you are running by and the other team is dumb enough to try and kill it. Just steal the last hit and laugh at them for wasting their time and getting no benefit while giving points and a buff to your team. :lol:

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> I agree with the OP. Maybe a simple yet effective solution would be to just make them worth more points ?

 

Or give then an effect that actually matters to the point game.

 

Like:

Enemy point build up gets freezed for 15 seconds. Stats +50. Effects of both beast stacks.

[otto.5684]

It is generally not advisable to kill the beasts, but it is an option sometimes. You captured both points, it makes more sense to kill the beast over going far. Team overran at mid and you managed to escape. If you are closer to home, it makes sense to kill beast until your team regroups for another attack on mid.

 

Though, as the game becomes more competitive, it kind becomes less useful.

[Legacy.7360]

For those players camping home (because of those awesome annoying af decappers), say you take out the thief/mes making an attempt to steal your home. Otw back to your node, you see the beast... hey why not, he's got the res timer... go after beast. Now the situation is different if it takes the player over 30 to kill. I can get it down within 10. No harm, no foul. Very situational. But for other players to out right assume that it's 'bad'... I can't agree. Every situation plays it's own role. It's just knowing the opportune time to attack. My 2 cents.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Legacy.7360" said:

> For those players camping home (because of those awesome annoying af decappers), say you take out the thief/mes making an attempt to steal your home. Otw back to your node, you see the beast... hey why not, he's got the res timer... go after beast. Now the situation is different if it takes the player over 30 to kill. I can get it down within 10. No harm, no foul. Very situational. But for other players to out right assume that it's 'bad'... I can't agree. Every situation plays it's own role. It's just knowing the opportune time to attack. My 2 cents.

 

Still a pretty bad decision. You could use those 10 seconds to rotate to the mid point, get a kill which starts a snowball in favor of your team, and rotate back to home in time to stop their thief from decapping.

 

Getting that kill in the teamfight is worth a lot more overall than the 25 points you'd get from beast.

 

With your decision, you would've killed beast for 25 points and be forced to afk on your node because you wouldn't have enough time to rotate elsewhere and back to stop a decap. Then the mid fight still stalemates until the thief realizes you're doing nothing on your home node, rotates to mid off respawn, kills one of your teammates, they wipe the rest of your team and snowball into you at home.

[Phantaram.1265]

> @"Legacy.7360" said:

> For those players camping home (because of those awesome annoying af decappers), say you take out the thief/mes making an attempt to steal your home. Otw back to your node, you see the beast... hey why not, he's got the res timer... go after beast. Now the situation is different if it takes the player over 30 to kill. I can get it down within 10. No harm, no foul. Very situational. But for other players to out right assume that it's 'bad'... I can't agree. Every situation plays it's own role. It's just knowing the opportune time to attack. My 2 cents.

 

If you do that and there is a team fight mid go help that immediately. Even if it means they decap your home when they rez. Winning the team fight is incredibly important in solo queue. If there is no team fight mid path through beach and wait for them to rez. Being at beach makes you far more available to help your team if something is to arise. And it's solo queue, something will definitely arise and often there is something going on at far.

 

> @"otto.5684" said:

> It is generally not advisable to kill the beasts, but it is an option sometimes. You captured both points, it makes more sense to kill the beast over going far. Team overran at mid and you managed to escape. If you are closer to home, it makes sense to kill beast until your team regroups for another attack on mid.

 

> Though, as the game becomes more competitive, it kind becomes less useful.

 

If you've captured both points and their whole team is dead and this is solo queue and you guys have the awareness to kill it while they are on rez and you don't have a teammate at far then props to you dude. In my 5-6 years playing this game I've never had a solo queue team identify all these check marks and make the decision to go do beast safely while the enemy team was on rez. And like I said, even in 5v5 organized competitive environment teams have tried to identify this exact situation and went and done it and it ended up being a bad move. It would often give the 1 or 2 enemy players alive too much map presence whether that be a mesmer placing a portal near home or a player or 2 begin pressuring middle while you are doing beast and you meet the enemy team middle and the pressure they put on your mid node holder lost you the team fight. Even just making sure their players stay on their side of the map can often be a better move than killing your beast. Sometimes not and then its a smart move but you have to be a full team of smart players to identify the situation it is a good decision in and it needs to be made quickly.

 

And you are wrong as the game becomes more competitive it becomes more useful because players can identify when to take it rather than hurting their team by thinking because its solo queue that "there are plenty of situations its a good idea in!"

[eksn.7264]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> This, I think, is precisely what killed ESL and makes the game less interesting.

>

> During "Pro League" days, the commentators could almost say, "Player A *should* open with skill x. Then player B *should* counter with Y." That's not a game, it's choreography.

>

> Only the most dedicated of aficionados would enjoy or play in this fashion. Viz.. less than 10% of the GW2 population and likely less than 5%. **I have a pretty decent idea of what to do, but I don't want to participate in PvP ballet.** I don't find it compelling enough to spend full time days practicing.

>

> **TLDR: Don't change maps or skills or traits to suit Pro League style. It doesn't make sense when the vast majority don't play that way.**

 

This makes no sense on so many levels. Are you seriously implying GW2 can essentially be "choreographed" and "flowcharted"? Of course you can't blame the majority of players for thinking "well the game sure makes it look like this is an important objective, so I should probably get this for my team", but why should that punish the upperish skill brackets who actually know it's almost always a bad idea? Why *should* it almost always be a bad idea in the first place? You can improve the design of said objective, keep a risk vs reward factor, and make it more worth fighting for at all skill brackets. An objective SHOULD be worth fighting for regardless.

[eksn.7264]

> @"eksn.7264" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > This, I think, is precisely what killed ESL and makes the game less interesting.

> >

> > During "Pro League" days, the commentators could almost say, "Player A *should* open with skill x. Then player B *should* counter with Y." That's not a game, it's choreography.

> >

> > Only the most dedicated of aficionados would enjoy or play in this fashion. Viz.. less than 10% of the GW2 population and likely less than 5%. **I have a pretty decent idea of what to do, but I don't want to participate in PvP ballet.** I don't find it compelling enough to spend full time days practicing.

> >

> > **TLDR: Don't change maps or skills or traits to suit Pro League style. It doesn't make sense when the vast majority don't play that way.**

>

> This makes no sense on so many levels. Are you seriously implying GW2 can essentially be "choreographed" and "flowcharted"? Of course you can't blame the majority of players for thinking "well the game sure makes it look like this is an important objective, so I should probably get this for my team", but why should that punish the upperish skill brackets who actually know it's almost always a bad idea? Why *should* it almost always be a bad idea in the first place? You can improve the design of said objective, keep a risk vs reward factor, and make it more worth fighting for at all skill brackets. An objective SHOULD be worth fighting for regardless.

 

And saying ESL died because of this is just... what...