Mesmer has too many passive defenses.

[Hyraltia.4185]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> Been recking on a Mesmer lately and i have realized that for all the complains about warrior, Mesmer has just as many if not MORE passive defenses.

>

> Why? Because all its defensive tools double as offensive tools as well, thus you dont really choose between the 2 or sacrifice one for the other.

>

> -You doge which creates a clone (you defensive mechanism) and triggers additional damage from your clones.

> -You do Axe 2 which inflicts a bunch of conditions AND creates a clone which again is your main defensive mechanism.

> -You Jaunt and Inflict Confusion.

> -You axe 3, reposition, set for shatter, make a mess of targeting and clones positioning, which again is your defensive mechanism and inflict a bunch of confusion.

> -Pistol 4 does a truckload of damage AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

> -Scepter 1 inflicts torment AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

>

> List goes on and on and on. And the problem is, these are not tactical choices, they simply happen when you go on the offensive. No other class, except Elementis has this overlap of offensive and defensive triggers.

>

>

> ------------------ALL of the above heal you when they trigger.

>

> CLARIFIYING PASSIVE:

> In this game, passives, are things that get triggered while doing something else, and doing that something else might or might not be related to the purpose of the triggered passive. They are bonus things that happen while doing something else.

> An example often thrown around is ADRENAL HEALTH. This is a healing that gets triggered When you use your burst skills. You have to trigger burst skills any way to play the warrior class, and it is not the objective or main function of burst skills to give you Adrenal Health, it just happens.

> Same goes for this skills, they have an offensive function, but end up producing defensive tools as well.

>

 

Except adrenal health requires hitting the enemy. The mesmer ones do not. Thus why people need to stop crying about adrenal and learn to dodge burst skills, they all have long obvious wind ups.

[Luca.4670]

why this joke of a thread is still up? it shouldjust be removed, clearly the OP and many other scrubs need to l2p. Mesmer need no nerfs.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> >

> > > And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

> >

> > It's like the brick wall is multiplying.

> >

> > Mirage dodge is an active skill, requiring you to dodge. It is an action that must be taken. **Can you explain how to get mirage cloak doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Assuming you are talking about reliable blocks because lol signet blocks are irrelevant (and coincidentally, one of the only examples in this thread of a mesmer passive effect that would be relevent in some way) it requires an activation. It is an active skill. **Can you explain how mesmer can get a relevant block doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Blurred Frenzy is a stationary 1s evasion that requires an activation, or an active skill. **Can you explain how blurred frenzy can be activated without a key press?**

> >

> > AI forcing you to take evasive manuevers? You mean the phantasm summon which is a damaging skill, that is also an active key press? (Honestly I shouldn't even justify this part with a response because it is actually poor argument. It's like saying only mesmer has skills that force you to evade, and this isn't even getting in to the fact you could randomly kill the phantasm or clones before they execute their intended function) **Can you explain how you summon a phantasm doing nothing?**

> > Did you mean conditions? The conditions that require you to activate skills in order to do damage (I am aware of runes adding conditions on X requirement, though I intentionally disregard those as the damage they put out is not enough to kill you alone) **Can you explain how you are able to load conditions on someone without doing anything?**

> > Did you mean the CD reset that takes up a utility slot that isn't used in almost any meta build? But ALSO requires you to activate the skill to get the effect.

> > **Can you explain how you are able to fully reset your CD's doing nothing?**

> >

> > It's like you want this narrative of passive to stick (even when proven wrong on multiple fronts, like, you know, the very core interaction of this game)

> > I would love explanations as to how in this game you are getting these interaction on a mesmer while doing nothing. Because that's what passive means in this game and has since pre-release.

>

> Time invested for a period of invulnerability or a CD reset or a block chain: 0

> Given that they all have durations that infinitely exceed their cast-times, it's very, very easy to overlap them into an extended cloak of invincibility while still retaining near full control of one's actions. Given that one casts a phantasm skill (something that has an actual cast-time) at the safest position possible (and sometimes from stealth outright), means that its long-term effect is going to independently overlap with whatever else you are going to do. The skill activation is initiated by the player, yes, but the fact that most of them are instant or near-instant while still granting invincibility periods that are nearly full seconds or multiple seconds, it's easy to just do whatever one wants with total impunity. At that point, it might as well be a passive effect. There is no risk or real effort in using them, so they're basically passive. I don't know why you think that pressing a whole bunch of buttons which grant invulnerability for free really entitles anyone to think that they're committing to active risk.

>

> Nobody engages unless one has all of the low effort buttons up. And even when one engages, it's only for as long as the low effort buttons sustain the user's impunity of action. It's a huge joke that really can't qualify as anything active since there is no risk to the user. They aren't automatic, but they're so effortless to use that they encourage an overall very passive style of gameplay which revolves around arbitrary timer countdowns rather than self-risk, spacing, aim or raw movement.

 

So basically no

 

You can't answer any of those questions.

 

Because as others have said nothing requiring activation is passive ( I would think that would be clear, but as always people surprise me).

Anything that is an active defense is just what it is. It's active. IF you want to argue risk v reward, do that. Debating an activation of a skill is passive because it does something you don't like.

 

That's just dumb, it honestly is.

 

If you don't like something, go ahead and make a thread over why you don't like it, what specifically and how specifically it could be changed. Then offer a continuing discussion.

Trying to meme a class to be nerfed is funny at first. It gets old after 3 post.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

 

> Time invested for a period of invulnerability or a CD reset or a block chain: 0

 

You mean the two skills one of which destroys all your clones and prevents capture contribution and the other locks you into blocking animation that can be interrupted?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> >

> > > And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

> >

> > It's like the brick wall is multiplying.

> >

> > Mirage dodge is an active skill, requiring you to dodge. It is an action that must be taken. **Can you explain how to get mirage cloak doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Assuming you are talking about reliable blocks because lol signet blocks are irrelevant (and coincidentally, one of the only examples in this thread of a mesmer passive effect that would be relevent in some way) it requires an activation. It is an active skill. **Can you explain how mesmer can get a relevant block doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Blurred Frenzy is a stationary 1s evasion that requires an activation, or an active skill. **Can you explain how blurred frenzy can be activated without a key press?**

> >

> > AI forcing you to take evasive manuevers? You mean the phantasm summon which is a damaging skill, that is also an active key press? (Honestly I shouldn't even justify this part with a response because it is actually poor argument. It's like saying only mesmer has skills that force you to evade, and this isn't even getting in to the fact you could randomly kill the phantasm or clones before they execute their intended function) **Can you explain how you summon a phantasm doing nothing?**

> > Did you mean conditions? The conditions that require you to activate skills in order to do damage (I am aware of runes adding conditions on X requirement, though I intentionally disregard those as the damage they put out is not enough to kill you alone) **Can you explain how you are able to load conditions on someone without doing anything?**

> > Did you mean the CD reset that takes up a utility slot that isn't used in almost any meta build? But ALSO requires you to activate the skill to get the effect.

> > **Can you explain how you are able to fully reset your CD's doing nothing?**

> >

> > It's like you want this narrative of passive to stick (even when proven wrong on multiple fronts, like, you know, the very core interaction of this game)

> > I would love explanations as to how in this game you are getting these interaction on a mesmer while doing nothing. Because that's what passive means in this game and has since pre-release.

>

> Time invested for a period of invulnerability or a CD reset or a block chain: 0

> Given that they all have durations that infinitely exceed their cast-times, it's very, very easy to overlap them into an extended cloak of invincibility while still retaining near full control of one's actions. Given that one casts a phantasm skill (something that has an actual cast-time) at the safest position possible (and sometimes from stealth outright), means that its long-term effect is going to independently overlap with whatever else you are going to do. The skill activation is initiated by the player, yes, but the fact that most of them are instant or near-instant while still granting invincibility periods that are nearly full seconds or multiple seconds, it's easy to just do whatever one wants with total impunity. At that point, it might as well be a passive effect. There is no risk or real effort in using them, so they're basically passive. I don't know why you think that pressing a whole bunch of buttons which grant invulnerability for free really entitles anyone to think that they're committing to active risk.

>

> Nobody engages unless one has all of the low effort buttons up. And even when one engages, it's only for as long as the low effort buttons sustain the user's impunity of action. It's a huge joke that really can't qualify as anything active since there is no risk to the user. They aren't automatic, but they're so effortless to use that they encourage an overall very passive style of gameplay which revolves around arbitrary timer countdowns rather than self-risk, spacing, aim or raw movement.

 

You're not listing any actual skills or their cast times or recharges which is how I know you know your argument is garbage.

[Trigr.6481]

I like how you typed out a paragraph attempting to inform people of what passive means, but you honestly have no idea what it means, even now.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > I agree they have too many tools to avoid damage that also apply a lot of damage. They have the best of both worlds. And I would like to note I understand what you mean by passive defense. Basically they get too many i-frames with their dps. You can decide to use those actively for defense, or just get them passively when going for dps.

>

> Skills on Mesmer that damage while evading and/or blocking:

> Illusionary Riposte

> Blurred Frenzy

> Illusionary Counter

> Exclusive to Chronomancer:

> Echo of Memory

> Exclusive to Mirage:

> Mirage Cloak/Ambush attacks

>

> That is not too many. Some classes have more than Mesmer does and also have the choice to use them for dps or defense. Poor argument is poor. I'm also going to note that 2 of the 3 core mesmer ones are both counterattack skills so you deserve it if you get hit by them.

 

I get you're point, and I understand your defending your class, but you have to remember just because something is balanced with one class doesn't make it so with another class. How many of those can be put on one build? what are the sacrifices for putting it on said build compared to other classes? when combined with the rest of the class, do these things make it extremely powerful? I would imagine in this case where mesmer and class X have equal amounts of i-framed skills, the mesmer would benefit more. You also have to account the brief mid-combat stealths and clone clutter that also help as a passive defense. And please don't tell me clone clutter is not an actual defense, because it makes it really hard to click or alt-tab through to actual target the real mesmer.

 

You can't really use the "x class also has this and it isn't overpowered with them, so it isn't overpowered for my class" argument. Give my revenant thief's shortbow 5 skill, if they get it so should I!

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"Luca.4670" said:

> why this joke of a thread is still up? it shouldjust be removed, clearly the OP and many other scrubs need to l2p. Mesmer need no nerfs.

 

Was saying the samething to myself.

[Solori.6025]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > > I agree they have too many tools to avoid damage that also apply a lot of damage. They have the best of both worlds. And I would like to note I understand what you mean by passive defense. Basically they get too many i-frames with their dps. You can decide to use those actively for defense, or just get them passively when going for dps.

> >

> > Skills on Mesmer that damage while evading and/or blocking:

> > Illusionary Riposte

> > Blurred Frenzy

> > Illusionary Counter

> > Exclusive to Chronomancer:

> > Echo of Memory

> > Exclusive to Mirage:

> > Mirage Cloak/Ambush attacks

> >

> > That is not too many. Some classes have more than Mesmer does and also have the choice to use them for dps or defense. Poor argument is poor. I'm also going to note that 2 of the 3 core mesmer ones are both counterattack skills so you deserve it if you get hit by them.

>

> I get you're point, and I understand your defending your class, but you have to remember just because something is balanced with one class doesn't make it so with another class. How many of those can be put on one build?

In a working build about 3 at most in the current meta. As he said earlier.

 

>what are the sacrifices for putting it on said build compared to other classes?

If you go chrono you are sacrificing mirage. While this could be good in lower ranks mirage for power is simply better and tank chrono was nerfed to oblivion.

 

>when combined with the rest of the class, do these things make it extremely powerful?

 

Some people think so, others don't. Personally I think burst condi in this game is a busted mechanic, but the nature of them at this point won't change. We have moved in into a one shot meta and honestly I don't know how to feel about it. On one hand it's cool to me and on the other I am very aware its really unhealthy. But like 4 or so classes have the potential to burst you in less than 5 seconds so meh.

 

>I would imagine in this case where mesmer and class X have equal amounts of i-framed skills, the mesmer would benefit more.

I don't think other classes have a mirage cloak function as that is a purely mesmer specific mechanic. So trying to compare that to something else is like literally Apple's to oranges

>You also have to account the brief mid-combat stealths and clone clutter that also help as a passive defense.

Stealth. Sure that is a type of defense as it drops your target. It does not make you invuln and it does not make you immune to AoE or cleave. Which many classes have access to.

Clones are not a defensive mechanic. At all. If clones gives you issues you simply need to get better, because that train left years ago.

 

>And please don't tell me clone clutter is not an actual defense, because it makes it really hard to click or alt-tab through to actual target the real mesmer.

>

 

It doesn't, it literally doesn't, Unless you fight a player who is terrible. You can literally auto attack clones to death.

Finding the real mesmer especially now is still the same as finding the mesmer then.

You may also want to try changing your settings to promote skill targeting ( they have another setting you should have on but I honestly cant remember the name of it) , 2012 left a long time ago. You people need to catch up.

 

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> >I would imagine in this case where mesmer and class X have equal amounts of i-framed skills, the mesmer would benefit more.

> I don't think other classes have a mirage cloak function as that is a purely mesmer specific mechanic. So trying to compare that to something else is like literally Apple's to oranges

The only reason I posted this argument point is because the dude I was originally quoted posted a bunch of the dodges and evades/invulns and said other classes get the same amount if not more. But here, you say you can't compare them. So that was sort of my point to say you can't use the argument of "some other classes have same amount or more" if they aren't mechanically the same nor are in combination and interact with the same factors.

 

> >You also have to account the brief mid-combat stealths and clone clutter that also help as a passive defense.

> Stealth. Sure that is a type of defense as it drops your target. It does not make you invuln and it does not make you immune to AoE or cleave. Which many classes have access to.

> Clones are not a defensive mechanic. At all. If clones gives you issues you simply need to get better, because that train left years ago.

>

> >And please don't tell me clone clutter is not an actual defense, because it makes it really hard to click or alt-tab through to actual target the real mesmer.

> >

>

> It doesn't, it literally doesn't, Unless you fight a player who is terrible. You can literally auto attack clones to death.

> Finding the real mesmer especially now is still the same as finding the mesmer then.

> You may also want to try changing your settings to promote skill targeting ( they have another setting you should have on but I honestly cant remember the name of it) , 2012 left a long time ago. You people need to catch up.

That promoted skill targeting I had no idea. I think it's on because it tends to cycle to bosses first in pve. My problem is I'll have a mesmer targeted and I'll use some skill and if the mesmer uses something to break my targeting, which is frequent when fighting a mesmer, than my skills get wasted. They get cast on a clone or something. And the issue isn't really about clones survival or soaking up damage, the problem is targeting and/or body blocking of skills. And finding the real mesmer isn't hard, that was never an argument.

 

But you brought up some good points to me, thanks.

 

 

[Sampson.2403]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> >

> > > And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

> >

> > It's like the brick wall is multiplying.

> >

> > Mirage dodge is an active skill, requiring you to dodge. It is an action that must be taken. **Can you explain how to get mirage cloak doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Assuming you are talking about reliable blocks because lol signet blocks are irrelevant (and coincidentally, one of the only examples in this thread of a mesmer passive effect that would be relevent in some way) it requires an activation. It is an active skill. **Can you explain how mesmer can get a relevant block doing absolutely nothing?**

> >

> > Blurred Frenzy is a stationary 1s evasion that requires an activation, or an active skill. **Can you explain how blurred frenzy can be activated without a key press?**

> >

> > AI forcing you to take evasive manuevers? You mean the phantasm summon which is a damaging skill, that is also an active key press? (Honestly I shouldn't even justify this part with a response because it is actually poor argument. It's like saying only mesmer has skills that force you to evade, and this isn't even getting in to the fact you could randomly kill the phantasm or clones before they execute their intended function) **Can you explain how you summon a phantasm doing nothing?**

> > Did you mean conditions? The conditions that require you to activate skills in order to do damage (I am aware of runes adding conditions on X requirement, though I intentionally disregard those as the damage they put out is not enough to kill you alone) **Can you explain how you are able to load conditions on someone without doing anything?**

> > Did you mean the CD reset that takes up a utility slot that isn't used in almost any meta build? But ALSO requires you to activate the skill to get the effect.

> > **Can you explain how you are able to fully reset your CD's doing nothing?**

> >

> > It's like you want this narrative of passive to stick (even when proven wrong on multiple fronts, like, you know, the very core interaction of this game)

> > I would love explanations as to how in this game you are getting these interaction on a mesmer while doing nothing. Because that's what passive means in this game and has since pre-release.

>

> Time invested for a period of invulnerability or a CD reset or a block chain: 0

> Given that they all have durations that infinitely exceed their cast-times, it's very, very easy to overlap them into an extended cloak of invincibility while still retaining near full control of one's actions. Given that one casts a phantasm skill (something that has an actual cast-time) at the safest position possible (and sometimes from stealth outright), means that its long-term effect is going to independently overlap with whatever else you are going to do. The skill activation is initiated by the player, yes, but the fact that most of them are instant or near-instant while still granting invincibility periods that are nearly full seconds or multiple seconds, it's easy to just do whatever one wants with total impunity. At that point, it might as well be a passive effect. There is no risk or real effort in using them, so they're basically passive. I don't know why you think that pressing a whole bunch of buttons which grant invulnerability for free really entitles anyone to think that they're committing to active risk.

>

> Nobody engages unless one has all of the low effort buttons up. And even when one engages, it's only for as long as the low effort buttons sustain the user's impunity of action. It's a huge joke that really can't qualify as anything active since there is no risk to the user. They aren't automatic, but they're so effortless to use that they encourage an overall very passive style of gameplay which revolves around arbitrary timer countdowns rather than self-risk, spacing, aim or raw movement.

 

But those still aren't passives. A passive is something like passive endure pain or passive elixer s that get activated without any player input.

 

If i one shot burst a warrior or engineer he could be afk and not die because of passives. If i one shot a mesmer he must ACTIVATE distortion or mirage cloak dodge before or during the burst to avoid it.

 

Pretty important difference. You can make your point, which i agree with (to a degree) without using the word passive incorrectly.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > > I agree they have too many tools to avoid damage that also apply a lot of damage. They have the best of both worlds. And I would like to note I understand what you mean by passive defense. Basically they get too many i-frames with their dps. You can decide to use those actively for defense, or just get them passively when going for dps.

> >

> > Skills on Mesmer that damage while evading and/or blocking:

> > Illusionary Riposte

> > Blurred Frenzy

> > Illusionary Counter

> > Exclusive to Chronomancer:

> > Echo of Memory

> > Exclusive to Mirage:

> > Mirage Cloak/Ambush attacks

> >

> > That is not too many. Some classes have more than Mesmer does and also have the choice to use them for dps or defense. Poor argument is poor. I'm also going to note that 2 of the 3 core mesmer ones are both counterattack skills so you deserve it if you get hit by them.

>

> I get you're point, and I understand your defending your class, but you have to remember just because something is balanced with one class doesn't make it so with another class. How many of those can be put on one build? what are the sacrifices for putting it on said build compared to other classes? when combined with the rest of the class, do these things make it extremely powerful? I would imagine in this case where mesmer and class X have equal amounts of i-framed skills, the mesmer would benefit more. You also have to account the brief mid-combat stealths and clone clutter that also help as a passive defense. And please don't tell me clone clutter is not an actual defense, because it makes it really hard to click or alt-tab through to actual target the real mesmer.

>

> You can't really use the "x class also has this and it isn't overpowered with them, so it isn't overpowered for my class" argument. Give my revenant thief's shortbow 5 skill, if they get it so should I!

 

I can and will argue clones are not a passive defense. It's never been difficult to find the real mesmer. The fact that this inane, self-pitying argument is resurging is evidence of the rising lack of skill. Mesmer doesn't get any more or less benefit out of weapon skills with evade frames. The only one who benefits more from evasion is Mirage only in the cases where they ignore Blink and Portal and slot extra Deception skills and only those skills, any other extra evasion that is non Mirage Cloak based is just the same as any other class. You'll face a realistic maximum of around 8 seconds of stealth against a Mesmer, if you're unable to count to 3, that's not my problem nor is it a problem with Mesmer.

 

Weaponskill evades all have the same function, just because they're animated different or have different secondary effects means nothing. The idea is to mitigate damage while attacking. I'm also going to remind you that 2 of the 3 core evade frame skills listed are technically counterattacks, you can choose not to attack them and then the skill does absolutely nothing. Additionally break target is only on Axe 3, Mirage Advance (Not used, ever), or Mirror Images. The only frequent target break is Axe 3 even then if they don't immediately shatter their clones just cleave them, it's not that hard.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

The problem is almost exclusively Elusive mind now for me, after fighting mesmers to see how they tick on a low level. If you get stunned because you did not dodge or evade, you need to burn a stunbreak.. Being able to channel while dodging is strong. Being able to ignore stuns in exchange for exhaustion when sigils and rune sets exist to give you endurance back on specific conditions is too strong. The core mechanic feels and looks nice; completing a channel because you dodged an interrupt is alright, but pairing it with stunbreak just makes people able to rotate without caring about what you're doing.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

And here I thought clones were more of an offensive mechanic over a defensive one, thus becoming the opposite of what this thread portrays :trollface:

[Odik.4587]

> @"aDemoNnDisguisE.8576" said:

> Agree with the OP.

> Mesmer needs more nerfs.

 

If you agree with OP ,you are lost for humanity :D