Condi weapons stalemate

[Temihal.8651]

Playing around with Shortbow, I was thinking about something.

With the actual state of Rev weapons for condi builds, in the future we will always be forced to choose between having range and having a new melee condi weapon to use other than Mace.

Kalla brought us Shortbow to solve this problem, but if we want other specs with ranged condi weapon we will have to use Mace forever as a condi Melee.

Some kind of hybrid-range weapon could mitigate the problem, maybe, but I think the smarter solution would have been a main hand ranged condi weapon on core Rev.

 

The addition of the Trident may have given me some hope.

What do you think?

What kind of weapon would you like to see on Rev?

[steki.1478]

That's the whole point of elite specs. You want ranged condi, you take renegade. Since we dont know the future of elite specs, rev specs or game in general, there's no point of thinking about being forced to do something in the future. Rev can get ranged torch as a condi weapon, but it can also not get any condi specs.

[Dace.8173]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> That's the whole point of elite specs. You want ranged condi, you take renegade. Since we dont know the future of elite specs, rev specs or game in general, there's no point of thinking about being forced to do something in the future. Rev can get ranged torch as a condi weapon, but it can also not get any condi specs.

 

I agree. If they feel we need more condi weapons we'll get them. Or they may decide to take an Elite in a different direction other than a condi weapon. I really wouldn't see it as being stuck with Mace either as I think it's in the best interest of Revenant to be more than just condi weapon focused. But if they wanted to do more condi weapons they could give us a condi longbow for ranged or a condi greatsword for melee. I don't think we are stuck in any true way.

 

As for actual weapons, a condi torch might be nice. I also wouldn't mind seeing daggers or maybe a pistol. Though I don't think we'll ever see trident since those are underwater weapons and I don't see them moving underwater weapons to ground. However the weapon itself is kinda moot of the Elite itself isn't good enough to support the weapon given.

[Temihal.8651]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > That's the whole point of elite specs. You want ranged condi, you take renegade. Since we dont know the future of elite specs, rev specs or game in general, there's no point of thinking about being forced to do something in the future. Rev can get ranged torch as a condi weapon, but it can also not get any condi specs.

>

> I agree. If they feel we need more condi weapons we'll get them. Or they may decide to take an Elite in a different direction other than a condi weapon. I really wouldn't see it as being stuck with Mace either as I think it's in the best interest of Revenant to be more than just condi weapon focused. But if they wanted to do more condi weapons they could give us a condi longbow for ranged or a condi greatsword for melee. I don't think we are stuck in any true way.

 

That's the problem.

If they give you a condi longbow, you can only use mace for melee.

And if they give you condi greatsword, you don't have any ranged weapon that works with a condi build.

 

This is also made worse by the fact that all of our legends skills (kalla excluded) only do damage in melee too.

Trying to run a condi build (without shortbow) with enemies with AoE usually mean that we can't do anything until we can melee again.

And every condi spec in the future will have this problem, unless they give us a ranged weapon that is stronger that mace in melee too.

 

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Temihal.8651" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > That's the whole point of elite specs. You want ranged condi, you take renegade. Since we dont know the future of elite specs, rev specs or game in general, there's no point of thinking about being forced to do something in the future. Rev can get ranged torch as a condi weapon, but it can also not get any condi specs.

> >

> > I agree. If they feel we need more condi weapons we'll get them. Or they may decide to take an Elite in a different direction other than a condi weapon. I really wouldn't see it as being stuck with Mace either as I think it's in the best interest of Revenant to be more than just condi weapon focused. But if they wanted to do more condi weapons they could give us a condi longbow for ranged or a condi greatsword for melee. I don't think we are stuck in any true way.

>

> That's the problem.

> If they give you a condi longbow, you can only use mace for melee.

> And if they give you condi greatsword, you don't have any ranged weapon that works with a condi build.

>

> This is also made worse by the fact that all of our legends skills (kalla excluded) only do damage in melee too.

> Trying to run a condi build (without shortbow) with enemies with AoE usually mean that we can't do anything until we can melee again.

> And every condi spec in the future will have this problem, unless they give us a ranged weapon that is stronger that mace in melee too.

>

>

>

 

Yeah but how many builds do you see that focus on both ranged and melee condi at the same time? I may have missed them, as I haven't played every possible build but a lot of the builds I play and try out typically focus on either melee or ranged and not both at the same time. You may have a ranged or melee weapon swap but I don't see a lot of action where people who are doing ranged condi switch up and suddenly move to melee and vice versa. I also noticed, as I looked at various condi builds that not many professions have a wide range of weapons either. A lot of the builds seemed to stick to one or two weapon choices. So is this just a Revenant issue or just a general thing? The again, with the way people are clamoring for a greatsword I don't really see a lot of people who seem to think that we need both in one build.

[Temihal.8651]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Yeah but how many builds do you see that focus on both ranged and melee condi at the same time? I may have missed them, as I haven't played every possible build but a lot of the builds I play and try out typically focus on either melee or ranged and not both at the same time. You may have a ranged or melee weapon swap but I don't see a lot of action where people who are doing ranged condi switch up and suddenly move to melee and vice versa. I also noticed, as I looked at various condi builds that not many professions have a wide range of weapons either. A lot of the builds seemed to stick to one or two weapon choices. So is this just a Revenant issue or just a general thing? The again, with the way people are clamoring for a greatsword I don't really see a lot of people who seem to think that we need both in one build.

 

Well, I think you're right saying that usually build focus on melee or ranged combat, but they also usually have a backup weapon in case they need it.

It can happen in open world or even in instanced content to have to range for a while, even if your build focus on melee.

Condi build on guardian have the scepter, thiefs have shorbow (maybe not very good but it can still apply bleeding and poison), mesmer has staff or scepter, necro generally use only scepter anyway, engi has a lot of options, ranger have the shortbow (IIRC).

I don't have the experience to comment on warrior and elementalist.

I think maybe sword weavers can have the same problem? But they still have utilities skills that can do damage from range.

We have only hammer as a ranged option. Hammer can only apply a little bit of torment by chill on #3, that's it.

Imagine to do raids, fractal or a difficult story instance where you have to range for a while. The only option would be to spec renegade.

 

I know people is asking for gs, but people also asked a ranged condi in core Rev since HoT beta.

That's the reason why Renegade has a condi ranged weapon. I just don't think it was enough to solve the problem.

 

 

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Temihal.8651" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > Yeah but how many builds do you see that focus on both ranged and melee condi at the same time? I may have missed them, as I haven't played every possible build but a lot of the builds I play and try out typically focus on either melee or ranged and not both at the same time. You may have a ranged or melee weapon swap but I don't see a lot of action where people who are doing ranged condi switch up and suddenly move to melee and vice versa. I also noticed, as I looked at various condi builds that not many professions have a wide range of weapons either. A lot of the builds seemed to stick to one or two weapon choices. So is this just a Revenant issue or just a general thing? The again, with the way people are clamoring for a greatsword I don't really see a lot of people who seem to think that we need both in one build.

>

> Well, I think you're right saying that usually build focus on melee or ranged combat, but they also usually have a backup weapon in case they need it.

> It can happen in open world or even in instanced content to have to range for a while, even if your build focus on melee.

> Condi build on guardian have the scepter, thiefs have shorbow (maybe not very good but it can still apply bleeding and poison), mesmer has staff or scepter, necro generally use only scepter anyway, engi has a lot of options, ranger have the shortbow (IIRC).

> I don't have the experience to comment on warrior and elementalist.

> I think maybe sword weavers can have the same problem? But they still have utilities skills that can do damage from range.

> We have only hammer as a ranged option. Hammer can only apply a little bit of torment by chill on #3, that's it.

> Imagine to do raids, fractal or a difficult story instance where you have to range for a while. The only option would be to spec renegade.

>

> I know people is asking for gs, but people also asked a ranged condi in core Rev since HoT beta.

> That's the reason why Renegade has a condi ranged weapon. I just don't think it was enough to solve the problem.

>

>

>

>

 

I guess I'm trying to gauge how big of a problem it might be. Like sure, you'll need to switch it up in a fight sometimes but when you switch up to your backup does your back up really need to be an _expletive deleted_ condi weapon too or just a good enough weapon to get the job done for the brief amount of time you will be using it. Some professions have it a bit harder, my primary main is Engineer (Rev is my secondary main) and unless the build included kits I was pretty much stuck with whatever weapon choice I opted for, be it ranged or melee. I will say Elementalist is almost in that same boat but having Attunements is actually better than having to slot in a kit as a back up weapon. Really with an Elementalist unless you are going Weaver you are pretty much doing ranged combat. I don't play enough Warrior to speak on it but I do know from when I played Necromancer a lot that typically whatever weapon was deemed the primary for the build I typically only swapped out of when the situation was dire enough to require a change. I imagine most people are similar, making use of the strongest weapon they have and only swapping to something else if the situation truly truly requires it.

 

But I'm digressing, the question I guess it really is it really a need for needing a good back up condi weapon or is it more a need to just have a good backup weapon choice overall and let the primary handle the condi part? If Revenant were really excell at condi do we need to just focus on ranged combat opitions for a bit since we have more than enough choices to make in regards to melee combat? I mean, yeah sure sword/sword isn't exactly a condi beast but it does appear to be one of Revenant's stronger melee weapon choices. Switching back to that if the situation requires it isn't all that bad, even if it's not dishing out a bunch of condi damage.

[Temihal.8651]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> I guess I'm trying to gauge how big of a problem it might be. Like sure, you'll need to switch it up in a fight sometimes but when you switch up to your backup does your back up really need to be an _expletive deleted_ condi weapon too or just a good enough weapon to get the job done for the brief amount of time you will be using it. Some professions have it a bit harder, my primary main is Engineer (Rev is my secondary main) and unless the build included kits I was pretty much stuck with whatever weapon choice I opted for, be it ranged or melee. I will say Elementalist is almost in that same boat but having Attunements is actually better than having to slot in a kit as a back up weapon. Really with an Elementalist unless you are going Weaver you are pretty much doing ranged combat. I don't play enough Warrior to speak on it but I do know from when I played Necromancer a lot that typically whatever weapon was deemed the primary for the build I typically only swapped out of when the situation was dire enough to require a change. I imagine most people are similar, making use of the strongest weapon they have and only swapping to something else if the situation truly truly requires it.

>

> But I'm digressing, the question I guess it really is it really a need for needing a good back up condi weapon or is it more a need to just have a good backup weapon choice overall and let the primary handle the condi part? If Revenant were really excell at condi do we need to just focus on ranged combat opitions for a bit since we have more than enough choices to make in regards to melee combat? I mean, yeah sure sword/sword isn't exactly a condi beast but it does appear to be one of Revenant's stronger melee weapon choices. Switching back to that if the situation requires it isn't all that bad, even if it's not dishing out a bunch of condi damage.

 

Yeah, I am not trying to say it's a big problem that makes the class unplayable. It just limits a lot our option in a class that is limited by design.

We don't need a great alternative, just an alternative. I would be happy giving some condi to the hammer to make it at least usable as an emergency backup in a condi build.

 

With engi you can include kits in a build that wouldn't normally use them, same with ele utilities.

With rev it's a bigger loss to change a legend just for that, and anyway we have no legend that could help in a situation like that.

Core rev has 5 weapons (or 6 if you want to count the double sword as separate).

We have:

- 1 utility weapon (staff)

- 1 power melee (sword)

- 1 condi melee (mace)

- 1 condi offhand (axe)

- 1 power offhand (sword)

- 1 power ranged (hammer)

 

There is just one niche missing. And it isn't filled by any legend utility skill. It's not like the class can't work like this, I just would like the option.

 

As a side note, sword offhand is not good for a condi build, but sword mainhand can do some torment with the chill on #2. For an hybrid build it can be an alternative to mace, albeit weaker.

 

 

 

[Dace.8173]

I suppose we'd have to wait and see if ANet would change hammer in that fashion then. I think aside from either buffing or nerfing the damage of a weapon they may just view this as an issue to be fixed with a new Elite with a better weapon. Still, I don't see Sword/Sword or Sword/Axe as bad back up weapons for a ranged condi build. We'll have to see what the future holds, though I'm still of the opinion that if Revenant started sliding into making it a stronger support profession that it would have a strong niche to fill that could make it better. Condi sounds good and all but I just feel that the profession has more potential as a support profession than anything else. I think both Glint and Kalla have been pushes in that direction but it isn't a theme that has been fully embraced yet.

 

We will see.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Temihal.8651" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > That's the whole point of elite specs. You want ranged condi, you take renegade. Since we dont know the future of elite specs, rev specs or game in general, there's no point of thinking about being forced to do something in the future. Rev can get ranged torch as a condi weapon, but it can also not get any condi specs.

> >

> > I agree. If they feel we need more condi weapons we'll get them. Or they may decide to take an Elite in a different direction other than a condi weapon. I really wouldn't see it as being stuck with Mace either as I think it's in the best interest of Revenant to be more than just condi weapon focused. But if they wanted to do more condi weapons they could give us a condi longbow for ranged or a condi greatsword for melee. I don't think we are stuck in any true way.

>

> That's the problem.

> If they give you a condi longbow, you can only use mace for melee.

> And if they give you condi greatsword, you don't have any ranged weapon that works with a condi build.

>

I don't see how that's a problem at all ... and that second statement isn't even true unless I missed some context. The facts are that there ARE restrictions in this game if you want to do specific things; that's what makes the especs compelling as 'new ways' to play a class, which is why they exist.

 

The real problem is that the pool of weapons Rev can choose from is garbage; Anet must have forgot how to count. I'm not so bothered that there are limited condi weapons; that's just a flavour problem. Luckily the flavours are good.

[Einlanzer.1627]

What I proposed in a thread a while back is turning Mace into more of a midrange condi focused weapon, then adding MH Axe to core Revenant to be a hybrid melee weapon.

 

I still think that's what makes the most sense. I don't think that core Rev necessarily needs a condi-heavy ranged weapon, but they definitely need some kind of option there.