High uptime on Retaliation is passive gameplay

[Darknicrofia.2604]

To reiterate: the correct response when you see retal on a core guard isn't to complain about how many times you're getting pricked by 256 tick counter damages, the correct response is to prepare your active defenses/blocks because you're about to get spiked for terrible terrible damage. Retal isn't a defensive boon, its literally the initiator/precursor for every single spike a core guardian performs.

 

complaining about retal is basically complaining that you died when you see a full heated holosmith charge up a Holographic Shockwave and your response was to run into it to face tank and auto attack it.

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"Darknicrofia.2604" said:

> To reiterate: the correct response when you see retal on a core guard isn't to complain about how many times you're getting pricked by 256 tick counter damages, the correct response is to prepare your active defenses/blocks because you're about to get spiked for terrible terrible damage. Retal isn't a defensive boon, its literally the initiator/precursor for every single spike a core guardian performs.

>

> complaining about retal is basically complaining that you died when you see a full heated holosmith charge up a Holographic Shockwave and your response was to run into it to face tank and auto attack it.

 

I don't think you understand the complaint. My complaint is not with the burst damage of the skills of core guardian. My complaint is with retaliation itself. The active skills that guardians use to deal massive spike damage hasn't been brought up as an issue at all. Whether or not retaliation is simply used to buff the guardian's stats makes no difference. The issue is with retaliation itself, and not how is syncs with guardian's traits.

[Vagrant.7206]

*cries in grenade engi*

 

Just try hitting a team 9 times with a single skill, and they all have retal. The problem's even worse in WvW though -- throwing grenades at an enemy zerg is more likely to get you killed than just standing there.

 

The problem with the boon is that some skills hit multiple times, and can also hit multiple enemies multiple times (aka GRENADES). The result is I can take 10-20% off of my life with a single button push and the enemy did nothing.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Again, nothing is wrong with fetal, people need to learn to read Boons on opponentns and not spam skills.

 

Retail only punishes those that aren’t skilled enough to not spam their skills without paying attention.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Again, nothing is wrong with fetal, people need to learn to read Boons on opponentns and not spam skills.

>

> Retail only punishes those that aren’t skilled enough to not spam their skills without paying attention.

 

*cries in grenade engi*

[Hot Boy.7138]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Again, nothing is wrong with fetal, people need to learn to read Boons on opponentns and not spam skills.

>

> Retail only punishes those that aren’t skilled enough to not spam their skills without paying attention.

 

Do you mean be careful and wait for the retal boon to expire before using skills? because it was already established, and the initial point of the thread, is that it is being maintained with 100% uptime. There is no waiting it out. Boon rip is unreliable to target any specific boons, and the frequency of application of boons makes that pointless.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Would having it scale off toughness be a good idea?

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

lulz, I’m not the one dying to retal like certain people, I wonder who the ones that need help are....

 

At least I don’t need to cry for nerfs due to simple to handle mechanics, that only requires an iota of awareness and CS to avoid dying to. But I understand certain people would rather cry for nerds instead of learning to get better.

 

Oh no autocorrect on a phone corrected the retal to fetal, oh no.... my whole argument is moot.... whatever shall I do... smh.

 

[Zawn.9647]

So mesmers can just put torment so i kill my self while I walk... Apply confusion so I kill myself while i cast skills...

But another class can't apply retaliation so mesmers kills themselves while attacking? Seems legit :)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Again, it must be hard not knowing how to play properly and dying to a very simple to negate/avoid mechanic, crying for nerfs just because certain players can’t take a small amount of effort to improve is very telling. Retal does negligible damage and is completely avoidable and can be counterplayed, all with the smallest amount of awareness and cs.

 

But hey I will just be over here not dying to retal, unlike some people.

[viquing.8254]

>It’s only an issue to players that spam all their skills and don’t play appropriately around their opponents, it’s where situational awareness and player skill comes in handy

Gard player base higher than mesmers player base = nerf confusion, it's op, passive, whatever + retal is ok, learn to play. <3

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > And now, a Haiku.

> >

> > >Engaging enemy

> > >Retaliation killed me

> > >Boon rip is too hard

> This forum and people like you and that individual that suggest to use frenzy in same time with distortion (that claimed before that blocks protect from UNBLOCKABLE attacks ...). None of you are even thinking before post anything

> Engi ? Boon rip ? You implying everyone have boonrip .

> Whatever actually ,not worth anyone time

 

To be honest I tried really hard to make that last part 5 syllables, cut me some slack. <3

 

~~ also Revocaton, annulment, absorption sigils,~~

[Odik.4587]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

Absowhat...Is that...wvw?

This things remove random boons (implying every build running both ;D) and look at thier CD and amount of boon flying around ...

I cant estimate your efforts you put into that haiku :expressionless:

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Absowhat...Is that...wvw?

> This things remove random boons (implying every build running both ;D) and look at thier CD and amount of boon flying around ...

> I cant estimate your efforts you put into that haiku :expressionless:

 

I tried really hard for that haiku uwu

 

Also I don't think they're random.?

 

@"Sigil of Absorption Wiki"

>Notes

>The order of boon removal is resistance, **aegis**, **retaliation**, swiftness, might, regeneration, quickness, fury and vigor.

 

^From the Sigil of Absorption page. Seems like exactly what you want. I'm not sure if the other rip sigils prioritize boons but they most likely follow some pattern. I'll look into that.

But yeah, it doesn't matter if they stack boons, as long as they dont have resistance, aegis or sability your interrupt will take retal on a three second cd.

 

There's a PVP version too for this one . I use it on cc heavy builds/my thief sometimes.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Absowhat...Is that...wvw?

> > This things remove random boons (implying every build running both ;D) and look at thier CD and amount of boon flying around ...

> > I cant estimate your efforts you put into that haiku :expressionless:

>

> I tried really hard for that haiku uwu

>

> Also do they?

>

> Notes

> The order of boon removal is resistance, **aegis**, **retaliation**, swiftness, might, regeneration, quickness, fury and vigor.

>

> ^From the Sigil of Absorption page. Seems like exactly what you want.

> There's a PVP version too.

 

May be its absorption sigils work in that way . Really long time ago with some warrior I was testing in which order boons being removed , I was wondering if they removed in order they applied or each boons in exact order by priority. Each time it was removing random boon ... But it was so long time ago I dont even remember what I used as boon removal ... could be mesmer shatter... if you are on EU we can test ,why not?

Also thief steal have priority on boon rip indeed .Aegis/stability always first iirc . Rest...probably not

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > Absowhat...Is that...wvw?

> > > This things remove random boons (implying every build running both ;D) and look at thier CD and amount of boon flying around ...

> > > I cant estimate your efforts you put into that haiku :expressionless:

> >

> > I tried really hard for that haiku uwu

> >

> > Also do they?

> >

> > Notes

> > The order of boon removal is resistance, **aegis**, **retaliation**, swiftness, might, regeneration, quickness, fury and vigor.

> >

> > ^From the Sigil of Absorption page. Seems like exactly what you want.

> > There's a PVP version too.

>

> May be its absorption sigils work in that way . Really long time ago with some warrior I was testing in which order boons being removed , I was wondering if they removed in order they applied or each boons in exact order by priority. Each time it was removing random boon ... But it was so long time ago I dont even remember what I used as boon removal ... could be mesmer shatter... if you are on EU we can test ,why not?

> Also thief steal have priority on boon rip indeed .Aegis/stability always first iirc . Rest...probably not

 

I'm not EU unfortunately, but see if absorption can take retal of of a guard without stab, resistance or aegis with a cc. If so, you just have to worry about when to interrupt the guard to ensure they have a down period of no retal for you to burst them.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Absowhat...Is that...wvw?

> > > > This things remove random boons (implying every build running both ;D) and look at thier CD and amount of boon flying around ...

> > > > I cant estimate your efforts you put into that haiku :expressionless:

> > >

> > > I tried really hard for that haiku uwu

> > >

> > > Also do they?

> > >

> > > Notes

> > > The order of boon removal is resistance, **aegis**, **retaliation**, swiftness, might, regeneration, quickness, fury and vigor.

> > >

> > > ^From the Sigil of Absorption page. Seems like exactly what you want.

> > > There's a PVP version too.

> >

> > May be its absorption sigils work in that way . Really long time ago with some warrior I was testing in which order boons being removed , I was wondering if they removed in order they applied or each boons in exact order by priority. Each time it was removing random boon ... But it was so long time ago I dont even remember what I used as boon removal ... could be mesmer shatter... if you are on EU we can test ,why not?

> > Also thief steal have priority on boon rip indeed .Aegis/stability always first iirc . Rest...probably not

>

> I'm not EU unfortunately, but see if absorption can take retal of of a guard without stab, resistance or aegis with a cc. If so, you just have to worry about when to interrupt the guard to ensure they have a down period of no retal for you to burst them.

Absorption sigil not worth running if you dont have alot of interrupts on demand (honestly dont know who will use this except warrior/dp thief) and actually demand to interrupt skill .Plus once guardian/enemy have light aura its being reapplied while taking hits ,not even close to be an answer. Heading to play anyway , forum givin me headache xD

(retal itself reward people for facetanking alot of small hitting abilities but does close to nothing when you being murdered by some kind of DJ/world impact/ bullcharge spellbreaker)

O btw, problem with this retal thread was driven by BF'ing into 3 ppl I guess. Thats high quality suicide ,got killed me few times 1vX solely because I use it for evade but that killed me before I could blink and realize what happened xD

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Retaliation isn't even remotely close to one of the big balance issues of GW2 right now.

>

> It's poorly designed and doesn't do what it's intended to do, which is punish people for focusing a specific target ( Instead it just punishes specific niche abilities that hit multiple times ). It could be improved by changing it to just reflect 5% of all damage dealt with a maximum damage set at your power, which would neither be a buff nor a nerf just a change away from it being a "Build wars" issue. Retaliation dealing flat damage is pretty dumb.

>

> But it's really not a high priority problem. If anything the retal spam is part of the larger problem that boonspam in general is too much reward for microscopically small player skill investment. Always has been and likely always will be.

>

>

 

5% sounds good, that way you can still hit retal with a 60k worldly impact and a 30k maul and still only lose half your hp

 

¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Jokes aside I think I like the flat damage better but maybe a short internal cooldown could be beneficial

[Faux Play.6104]

You can always key bind stow weapon.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > Retaliation isn't even remotely close to one of the big balance issues of GW2 right now.

> >

> > It's poorly designed and doesn't do what it's intended to do, which is punish people for focusing a specific target ( Instead it just punishes specific niche abilities that hit multiple times ). It could be improved by changing it to just reflect 5% of all damage dealt with a maximum damage set at your power, which would neither be a buff nor a nerf just a change away from it being a "Build wars" issue. Retaliation dealing flat damage is pretty dumb.

> >

> > But it's really not a high priority problem. If anything the retal spam is part of the larger problem that boonspam in general is too much reward for microscopically small player skill investment. Always has been and likely always will be.

> >

> >

>

> 5% sounds good, that way you can still hit retal with a 60k worldly impact and a 30k maul and still only lose half your hp

>

> ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> Jokes aside I think I like the flat damage better but maybe a short internal cooldown could be beneficial

 

If you return any significant % of the *attacker's* damage back, it won't change things. Glass cannons do more damage and receive more damage back to their already glassy health, bunkers do less damage and receive less damage back to their higher health.

Those same people who are crying now won't be satisfied.

[ArthurDent.9538]

The whole thought process of don't spam your attacks against foes with retal is fine and dandy until you go up against something like mr. core guard who has stacked 30 seconds of retaliation. With the amount of uptime core guards can get you can't just wait it out and time your attacks during the downtime as the downtime is just too far away to wait for. Your only options then are boon rip which is generally unreliable and limited, tank the damage and out sustain it, or disengage and don't bother. The retal may require button presses to acquire making it "active" however it is very passive in that the timing just doesn't matter, since it can be up for such a long time. Popping retal at an appropriate time to punish a mesmer trying to avoid damage with blurred frenzy would be active use of retaliation, stacking 20+ seconds of retal to punish everything is just a skill rotation.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Your only options then are boon rip which is generally unreliable and limited, tank the damage and out sustain it, or disengage and don't bother.

 

A viable PvP build is already capable of doing at least one of these things.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> >It’s only an issue to players that spam all their skills and don’t play appropriately around their opponents, it’s where situational awareness and player skill comes in handy

> Gard player base higher than mesmers player base = nerf confusion, it's op, passive, whatever + retal is ok, learn to play. <3

 

It's not the same thing and you know it. Against retal you have way more options than you do against confusion. Against retal you just don't want to hit your opponent, against confusion you can do absolutely nothing else than cleanse. The damage difference is absolutely massive as well because confusion can be stacked.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Again, nothing is wrong with fetal, people need to learn to read Boons on opponentns and not spam skills.

> >

> > Retail only punishes those that aren’t skilled enough to not spam their skills without paying attention.

>

> Do you mean be careful and wait for the retal boon to expire before using skills? because it was already established, and the initial point of the thread, is that it is being maintained with 100% uptime. There is no waiting it out. Boon rip is unreliable to target any specific boons, and the frequency of application of boons makes that pointless.

 

Did you also not read the thread? to maintain 100% retal, core guards have to pop all 3 virtues and even their heal skill and elite when they're not being pressured to do so.

 

Wait until their heal and elite expires to spike them, I can guarantee you the 256 per hit from retal on guardians isn't much of a defense when literally all their cooldowns are used to maintain retal.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> The whole thought process of don't spam your attacks against foes with retal is fine and dandy until you go up against something like mr. core guard who has stacked 30 seconds of retaliation.

 

Here is the meta core guard build:

 

Virtue of Justice: 3.75 secs of retal (17 sec cooldown)

Virtue of Resolve: 3.75 secs of retal (25.5 sec cooldown)

Virtue of Courage: 3.75 secs of retal (38.4 sec cooldown)

Litany of Wrath *a healing skill*: 10 secs of retal (20 sec cooldown)

 

 

Under no circumstances do you keep 30+ secs of retal and the only way you keep perma retal is by opening the engagement by activating your heal skill first, which if you're losing to core guardians that use their heal skill while at 100%, then you have some entirely different problems in pvp than just complaining about getting pricked for 256 per hit by a boon.