We really need rebalanced attributes

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

 

Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

 

Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

 

In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> Honestly I'd go a step further.

>

> **Does GW2 need item stats at all**?

>

> Because IMO, no. It doesn't. I have no clue how to handle the economics side of this (because obviously removing item stats would remove much of the need for crafting and a slew of materials). But ignoring that for a second, I feel if all there was to balancing classes were the *base* values on skills, stats would not be a thing, and all modifiers would be runes, sigils and traits, it'd all be worlds easier to balance, and classes could be made much more interesting.

 

That sounds a lot like GW1. Or rather, the stats were per class and could be adjusted individually. So changes to a stat only affected one class, and not all of them.

 

But this is a decision that was made at launch and can't really be undone anymore. Ofc you can speak about it hypothetically, just realize it isn't realistic at this point in the game.

 

I've for a while now been a quiet advocate of increasing the base health and toughness of all classes class by a set amount. 5k more health for min health profs, 4k for medium health classes and 3k for the high health professions. Would diminish class imbalance and soften the damage-creep that is out of control currently. IMO we do need some passive-defense-stat-creep.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> I've for a while now been a quiet advocate of increasing the base health and toughness of all classes class by a set amount. 5k more health for min health profs, 4k for >medium health classes and 3k for the high health professions. Would diminish class imbalance and soften the damage-creep that is out of control currently. IMO we do >need some passive-defense-stat-creep.

 

And what exactly would a defensive stat creep provide?

 

Defensive stats arent taken because every class has at least two dodges and utility skills/traits to help you survive.

Why should i ever carry another set of armor with me if i can just swap out a single skill or trait and survive?

Its not only cheaper but also way more convenient.

[Robban.1256]

> @"Lametoile.7394" said:

> > @"Robban.1256" said:

> > Just going to copy from wiki for you:

> > "The best defense is a good offense" is an adage that has been applied to many fields of endeavor, including games and military combat.

> > It is also known as the strategic offensive principle of war. Generally, the idea is that proactivity (a strong offensive action) instead of a passive attitude will preoccupy the opposition and ultimately hinder its ability to mount an opposing counterattack, leading to a strategic advantage

>

> Yeah, except that the adage is false

>

> To quote Clausewitz, defense is superior to attack. Because defense is NOT just passive defense, and attack is not just reckless offense. Defending well where you are advantaged can offers you a lot of opportunity for efficient counterattacks while the ennemies is weakened b the offense. Psychology factor and energy management. In martial arts, you attack and defend yourselves at the same time.

> So, no, the best defense is not offense. It's active, clever defense.

>

> You're right though, video games are not war, and they are not like real fights. The adage can somewhat apply to them.

>

> The theory is very simple: you have to kill the ennemy before it kills you. DPS, sustain, resistance and max helath are the parameters, with controls, blocks and dodge working as additionnal jokers.

>

> Time alive=HP/((DPS/armor)-sustain)

>

> The parameters vary greatly between game modes but the idea remains the same.

>

> However, so far, against ennemies with equivalent health:

> - power, precision and ferocity (condition damage and expertise if you play condi) offer the most benefits when correctly mixed

> - toughness help quite well but progressively lose its efficiency

> - vitality is not significant at all, being secondary in regards to sustain

>

> There is a simple reason why power is above toughness:

>

> to obtain the damage you take, you DIVIDE by your armor. However, the curve of the reverse function quicly lose its amplitude

>

> to obtain the damage you do, you MULTIPLY by your power. Thus, the stats seems somehow equivalent (in terms of benefits when you decide to increase it further by X point)

> except that toughnness has a further advantage: you multiply AGAIN by (1 + (crit probability)*(crit damage)). Thus, you improve the damage much more than by just increaing power with the same amount of stats (okay, you can argue we have to increase 3 stats at a time anyway).

>

> Armor does not possess such synergy. If existing, it would be sustain. But most classes does not benefits much from healing power.

>

> Plus, we always prefer, myself included, to kill ennemies fast, for a lot of reasons. And if you manage dodge and cc well, you can safely sacrifice some survivability.

>

> That's why GW2 system currently favor high damage stats rather than high armor.

>

> So...Yeah

 

No attack is more powerful and active defence is best defence over passive defence, such as dps (kill)/dodge /block/invulnerability/movement/boons.

Also like during World War I, Germany planned to attack France so as to quickly knock it out of the war, thereby reducing the Entente's numerical superiority and to free up German troops to head east and defeat Russia

[Astralporing.1957]

Because i don't like to repeat myself, i will just repost what i said in the previous thread you have made about the [very same topic](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/608320/ "very same topic")

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > > The game was always about active defense. Passive defense is just there to allow more room for mistakes.

> > > They're fine as they are.

> >

> > Except they don't do that to the degree they should for the amount of offense you give up. That's the point.

> Yes. That's the unfortunate effect of defence being taken care of mostly outside of stats. You don't need stats to defend against attacks you dodged, blocked, or walked out of. That means those stats have minimal impact on fight. To change this, they'd need to become strong enough you would not need active defences at all - but if they were that strong, and you would add active defences on top of it, you would be completely unkillable.

>

> Basically, there can be no equality between offense and defense stats, because defense has an additional factor offense doesn't have.

>

> > As mentioned above, though, it's probably more an issue with overtuned offense than it is with undertuned defense.

> No, it's a problem with mechanic mismatch. The stats we have and the combat mechanics just should never have been put in the same game. Stats were likely something that was added only after the combat system was already mostly designed (probably to appease the old-style MMORPG gamers, that were used to having stats on their gear). The rest is just a consequece of that decision - a consequence we'll have to live with unless they decide to redo the whole thing from scratch.

>

> So, basically, either go to more standard combat system, or drop the stats from gear completely.

>

> The chances of this happening in GW2 are near zero.

>

> Yes, the defensive stats could use a bit of improvement, but as long as the core systems remain as they are, that's not going to change the main issues at all.

>

>

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

No we don't "need" to rebalance the attributes they are actually fine. If you take a look at where they are used, in PVP and WVW, Toughness, Healing Power and Vitality are fine. Same goes for high end PVE, like Raids, there always builds that use those attributes. What you are "proposing" here is to nerf every build in order to make usage of other attributes mandatory everywhere and limit the aspect of "action combat". Let's tank with our attributes instead. And at the same time ruin PVP/WVW, because those stats are already powerful there.

[Henry.5713]

Not sure what the big deal is here. People tend to optimize offensive stats in high tier solo content in any MMORPG. The required high performance level usually leads to players mastering active defenses such as dodges or blocks. One good dodge does more than all of the toughness in the game and that is how it should be in an action combat game.

And group content is all about group efficiency. Why would any group sacrafice their offense on multiple members if this could be complete covered by a single healer or any given support. Games which do not have dedicated supports or healers usually go the approach of having you rely on active defenses even more heavily due to the lack of any healer. I have yet to see a game that would allow you to stack defensive gear to a degree where neither a support nor actual proper actionplay would be required.

 

Celestial stats lost most of their value after the introduction of Concentration and Expertise. Rather sure we would see Celestial builds pop up far more frequently if this wasn't the case. Many might even argue about how Celestial would turn completely OP if this were to happen. Not to mention how huge Celestial used to be in sPvP in case you forgot about the beloved "Celestial META" and the fact that Celestial gear in particular made them remove all defensive stat combinations one after the other.

The point people made about the continuous Power Creep wasn't wrong. One of the main reasons why many builds get away with no longer relying on defensive gear to stay alive in sPvP or WvW is this very Power Creep. The amount of active defenses, teleports, invulnerabilities, mobility skills, etc. which have been handed out freely to all classes over the years is quite mindblowing if you compare the current state of the game to how it used to be at release.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > I've for a while now been a quiet advocate of increasing the base health and toughness of all classes class by a set amount. 5k more health for min health profs, 4k for >medium health classes and 3k for the high health professions. Would diminish class imbalance and soften the damage-creep that is out of control currently. IMO we do >need some passive-defense-stat-creep.

>

> Why should i ever carry another set of armor with me if i can just swap out a single skill or trait and survive?

> Its not only cheaper but also way more convenient.

 

What does this have to do with my comment? I was proposing them as base stats, not as gear.

But never mind actually, I hadn't considered the PvE side of this game at all. My idea only really "works" for PvP.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

>

> Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

>

> Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

>

> In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

 

Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> >

> > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> >

> > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> >

> > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

>

> Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

 

And if the game pushed you to make cele the best set for solo, it would suck. Because its pacing would be too slow. Difference in opinion is something normal, however I have actual arguments for my opinion.

[Robban.1256]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> >

> > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> >

> > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> >

> > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

>

> Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

 

Say any game or any country's avg situation works better with passive defence than active defence

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Robban.1256" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> > >

> > > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> > >

> > > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> > >

> > > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

> >

> > Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

>

> Say any game or any country's avg situation works better with passive defence than active defence

 

Don't bring countries here, this is a game. Also "active defence" means using defensive skills, as opposed to "passive defence" - being able to soak up more damage by virtue of having higher EHP. So if you're saying the game should focus on active defences, then obviously defensive attributes shouldn't be the way to go. Which is correct.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

#Necro is the one designed proper.

 

Ok, now that i have your undivided attention ... It's true (except core). And how does this relay to the topic of unbalanced attributes?

Simple - necro is a **paragon** of how defenses in this game should be vs what we got (on other professions).

 

Necro does not have god-mode defenses, which imho are the issue here. Instead he has a lot of situational, stat-synergetic ones. For example signet of vampirism will restore a certain amount of health when hit - that is it's passive. Putting points into toughness and healing power (along with traiting signets of suffering) makes the power damage you take less, heal you receive more, and now passive works when shrouded too. A huge difference compared to base version achieved with boosting defensive attributes and a trait.

 

Ofc alone it's shit still. But necro has many other defense layers - none of them ultimate, but by stacking, interchanging and timing them right you can achieve very solid defense matching the situation. Life steals, protection, Rise!, blinds, Corrupter's fervor, Shroud, Barriers, whole phletora of anti-condi tools...all of these aren't one button solutions to everything, but used proper with support from stats can achieve very robust results.

 

#Other professions?

 

Push a button, you're invulnerable or nigh invulnerable. 0 damage from direct attacks, 24/7 resistance, evades, conversion of damage to healing.

**There is no stat synergy with these**. It's push & forget, instead of "think what you're pushing against given type of attack, and how it'll roll with your stat build.

 

Because all these professions have these god-mode defenses, defense stats can't be strong, else it would be impossible to shut them down at all in the tiny windows of vulnerability when they've blown their "can't touch me" defenses and are now down to few moments of just you vs their defense stats.

 

If that wasn't the case, and defenses on other professions were more like necro's (your active defenses don't hang in void completely unrelated to enemy attack type and your own defense stats) we should enjoy far more balanced game where proper build is equally important (and varied) to proper play of said build.

 

 

[Robban.1256]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Robban.1256" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> > > >

> > > > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> > > >

> > > > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> > > >

> > > > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

> > >

> > > Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

> >

> > Say any game or any country's avg situation works better with passive defence than active defence

>

> Don't bring countries here, this is a game. Also "active defence" means using defensive skills, as opposed to "passive defence" - being able to soak up more damage by virtue of having higher EHP. So if you're saying the game should focus on active defences, then obviously defensive attributes shouldn't be the way to go. Which is correct.

 

No the things I mean is that gw2 already have active defence > passive

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> > >

> > > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> > >

> > > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> > >

> > > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

> >

> > Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

>

> And if the game pushed you to make cele the best set for solo, it would suck. Because its pacing would be too slow. Difference in opinion is something normal, however I have actual arguments for my opinion.

 

Really? I'm not really seeing any. Furthermore, it seems to me like you're not understanding my arguments. You literally responded to my thread about why attributes are imbalanced and how to fix them with "offense is better than defense."

[Haishao.6851]

How many time a year do you repeat this thread?

 

[Jski.6180]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

 

Saying that not going to make it go away what should be done is to use stats update as a means of dealing with power creep.

 

The ideal of "its power creep" being the end all be all argument used is not going to fix any thing nor will it move the talk forward at all. At best its just a means of trying to end a talk. There IS no going back from power creep once its added at best you can only work with the power creep. Updating stats is the end all be all to making power creep both attk and def not as bad.

 

You need to update all of the stats numbers to make this work.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> How many time a year do you repeat this thread?

>

 

a. Once maybe, and usually with a lot of variation

b. I will continue doing it as long as I see fit to do it

c. What does it matter?

d. Maybe if you don't have anything helpful to contribute, just don't bother posting.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> #Necro is the one designed proper.

>

> Ok, now that i have your undivided attention ... It's true (except core). And how does this relay to the topic of unbalanced attributes?

> Simple - necro is a **paragon** of how defenses in this game should be vs what we got (on other professions).

>

> Necro does not have god-mode defenses, which imho are the issue here. Instead he has a lot of situational, stat-synergetic ones. For example signet of vampirism will restore a certain amount of health when hit - that is it's passive. Putting points into toughness and healing power (along with traiting signets of suffering) makes the power damage you take less, heal you receive more, and now passive works when shrouded too. A huge difference compared to base version achieved with boosting defensive attributes and a trait.

>

> Ofc alone it's kitten still. But necro has many other defense layers - none of them ultimate, but by stacking, interchanging and timing them right you can achieve very solid defense matching the situation. Life steals, protection, Rise!, blinds, Corrupter's fervor, Shroud, Barriers, whole phletora of anti-condi tools...all of these aren't one button solutions to everything, but used proper with support from stats can achieve very robust results.

>

> #Other professions?

>

> Push a button, you're invulnerable or nigh invulnerable. 0 damage from direct attacks, 24/7 resistance, evades, conversion of damage to healing.

> **There is no stat synergy with these**. It's push & forget, instead of "think what you're pushing against given type of attack, and how it'll roll with your stat build.

>

> Because all these professions have these god-mode defenses, defense stats can't be strong, else it would be impossible to shut them down at all in the tiny windows of vulnerability when they've blown their "can't touch me" defenses and are now down to few moments of just you vs their defense stats.

>

> If that wasn't the case, and defenses on other professions were more like necro's (your active defenses don't hang in void completely unrelated to enemy attack type and your own defense stats) we should enjoy far more balanced game where proper build is equally important (and varied) to proper play of said build.

>

>

 

I would argue that Necro only represents the best possible outcome of the system we have, and point it how Core Necro is the least versatile class across all game modes, because Tank and Spank approach to combat doesn't make sense when incoming attacks also includes a lot of "on hit" type triggers and secondary effects. Necro's (including the Especs) sustain only functions correctly when its countering raw damage.... which is why its so durable in Openworld and WvW. But only in Reaper and Scourge that they also gain a strong counter offensive to capitalize on the increased durability. But despite that, Necros suffer heavily against Control skills.... an irony considering they're supposed to be a class that manages conditions on itself. They have the least ready access to stability, whole sale condition clears, control condition reductions, reliable active defenses, and much of its tanking comes directly from trait interaction with the Shroud Mechanics. It piles on these passive defenses, because thats all it has.....

 

Necros threat in WvW and PvP comes from their offensive, shut down and corruption/counter player options. Without bite, the necro's sustain is practically a non-threat. But by replicating this model to all the other classes, its turns into a battle of raw attrition that STILL favors DPS output, and at best changes the value of control skills.

 

By far the biggest issue to crop since the addition of raids and its related balance, is how it takes all the problems of Open World combat to a comical extreme, and turned it into a major balance concern. Both HOT and POF had steps taken in the right direction to try and replicate some of the PvP combat traits, but its hampered by the fact that mobs are simply too vulnerable to raw damage, and control skills have too limited effectiveness given how simplistic their behavior is.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I won't argue your valid points about necro anti-cc issues and core necro sucking, hell the latter I admit in my first paragraph.

 

What I am saying is that **design wise** necro's defenses are the best of all 9 professions.

Reason i say this is because they synergize with character attribute system the most of all professions and aren't no brain panic buttons, but skills with specific use cases, strengths, weaknesses and ability to be linked with his other defensive skills for custom, stronger effect.

 

Most other professions just press a button and wham! Instant solution, that doesn't relate to his attributes, the type of attack that's incoming past the simple "is it cc/condi/direct", nor requires any synergizing with other defenses on a grander scale.

This is extremely **effective** but very dull and shalow from game design perspective.

 

 

 

Necros defenses are engaging, reward critical thinking, building defensive stats, knowledge of enemy attacks, and make you a better player overall.

Other profession's defenses are usually "problem b-gone buttons" where your only concern is how many utility slots must you give up to keep plowing stuff with your full zerk 0 vit/tough/healing build..

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I won't argue your valid points about necro anti-cc issues and core necro sucking, hell the latter I admit in my first paragraph.

>

> What I am saying is that **design wise** necro's defenses are the best of all 9 professions.

> Reason i say this is because they synergize with character attribute system the most of all professions and aren't no brain panic buttons, but skills with specific use cases, strengths, weaknesses and ability to be linked with his other defensive skills for custom, stronger effect.

>

> Most other professions just press a button and wham! Instant solution, that doesn't relate to his attributes, the type of attack that's incoming past the simple "is it cc/condi/direct", nor requires any synergizing with other defenses on a grander scale.

> This is extremely **effective** but very dull and shalow from game design perspective.

>

>

>

> Necros defenses are engaging, reward critical thinking, building defensive stats, knowledge of enemy attacks, and make you a better player overall.

> Other profession's defenses are usually "problem b-gone buttons" where your only concern is how many utility slots must you give up to keep plowing stuff with your full zerk 0 vit/tough/healing build..

 

I wouldn't consider it even being close to the best. You're describing something thats more "forgiving", in that it pads against mistakes. But that kind of defense can't be leveraged the same way the active defenses can; and its in the active side of both offense and defense that you get a lot of thoughtful interaction and counterplay. While this generally lends well to reactive play, its not limited to it if the effects can be metered for extended coverage.

 

Reactive play is heavily favored "right now" because our skills are very badly tuned on overlapping coverage, and too much of our damage skills are currently focused on burst delivery. Its done this way to ensure large enough windows of vulnerability in PvP environments, but in doing so, its also created a meta that revolves around shutdown/spike damage combos. This has even extended into some areas of PvE with Vet/Elite/Champ mobs, due to a major shift in thresholds that also strongly favor Hit and Run tactics. That is until you reach K-train scaling, where Mobs run into the problem of Target limits, which greatly reduces their overall threat level.

 

Stats might lean it toward longer TTKs, but it also produces other issues due to our timer focused skill limitations.... By that I mean fights can be ridiculously drawn out, and gives stealth even more power then it already has. This would had made a lot more sense if the game used a universal energy/resource system, which is designed around the idea of limiting burst potential with the ability to be strained in longer battles.

 

While I agree our current set up is too heavily front loaded, the solution isn't just making everything more back loaded or sustain focused instead. If we completely eliminated stats, while still keeping our trait system, our entire PvP meta focus would shift toward dismantling defensive effects and have heavily emphasis on control skills. That is as close to ideal (within our given framework) as we can get, as it pushes more toward specific choices in effects, with notable fall off points in performance, rather then bypassing them through sheer numerical magnitude.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Agree to disagree. You'd prefer stats outta the way in pvp, leaving it up to traits and skills if i understand correctly.

 

I want stats to power up active defenses, while god-mode defenses curbed, be it via reduced uptime, or change to a different defense type, where it works vs certain things, but is useless against another, and not always a golden solution to all (like evades, blurs, invulnerability and what not).

[Gendou.9620]

The problem is the stats are balanced around such a weird system, where power given to a warrior sword-- applies the same effect to a spell. In D&D every class had a different primary stat to increase dmg, maybe that is what needs to happen here. Replace Condi with INT, INT increases projectile spell dmg and condi dmg, but power increases short range attacks and spells, like ele sword or dagger. This could prevent people from getting too much power from certain builds. You could apply the same effect in many different ways, or even apply the stats based on armor class, where each armor class gets benefits from primary stats and less from secondary stats. It would be pages of explaining, but I'm sure you can use your imagination on how this might work. Warriors could go for damage and crit, but crit would be a secondary stat with way less scaling, where a ranger might have the stat that gives crit as a primary, and scale much higher, but less on the power. Any thoughts?

[otto.5684]

This is a complex subject. The first issue is that all these stats and HP pools are relics of GW2 vanilla, that have not been updated through out the years. It also was created to provide some tanking and healing capacity without having dedicated tank and healers roles. Also, the boon explosion during HoT, then again during PoF, rendered the need for these stats useless.

 

In PvE, unless your role is tank or support the group, most of these stats are obsolete. Healing is only used if you are using AOE heals. As far as I know, only druid considers this stats in grouped PvE. You could as FB or renegade support, but druid is used for the offensive buffs over them. Chrono is the only tank, and uses commander gear. And again, chrono is not used because it is the best at damage absorption, but because of the boon support. Also, if there is a version of concentration providing gear that goes into full damage stats, it will be used over commander. Vitality is only considered in open world PvE and only on low HP pool classes. It is a useless stats. Same as the HP pools concept, which as the game currently stands makes zero sense. Most power based builds are converging on ~32K damage and condi ~34K.

 

In PvP, things are a bit more complex. Toughness could be more useful in PvP if HP pools are raised. Absent that change, only warrior and condi based builds consider it. Medium and low HP pools cannot afford it. On the other side, medium and low HP pools must use vitality, unless you want to get one shotted (with some exceptions for Mesmer and rev). Healing power is not used outside of FB. It sucks as a stats.

 

Condi stats is even more of an issue. It bypasses toughness and does not need fury or precision, making it easy to dump huge amount in toughness in PvP (and thus all toughness/condi compositions are removed from sPvP). Also, with the exception of guardian, all condi based builds deal very little power based damage, and thus are cornered into viper in PvE.

 

Resolutions? I think HP pools and over accessibility to boons is the main culprits of the status we are in now (PvP wise at least). A change to these can open up diversity. PvE, it will always be highest damage meta. I was hoping to see more hybrid builds between power and condi, especially with Griver gear introduced in PoF. Though, only FB ended up with a function for this stats. This can be resolved by class balance.

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

>

> Saying that not going to make it go away what should be done is to use stats update as a means of dealing with power creep.

>

> The ideal of "its power creep" being the end all be all argument used is not going to fix any thing nor will it move the talk forward at all. At best its just a means of trying to end a talk. There IS no going back from power creep once its added at best you can only work with the power creep. Updating stats is the end all be all to making power creep both attk and def not as bad.

>

> You need to update all of the stats numbers to make this work.

 

But there is nothing wrong with them. I really don't understand how is this a problem.

 

Defensive stats should not matter as much as offensive ones. Period. As I said earlier:

**There is no alternative to offence, you either damage the foe, or you don't. But you can avoid the damage, if you don't you have toughness or vitality to soak up some of it.**