MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Menyus.4610" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > Dude none of thieves build excels in 1v1, you can suprise somone with deadeye but only max once a day if he is a decent player, when im playing my heal druid i just lol away when i see a DeadEye going on me, last time i died to a deadeye was on my experimental interrupter build and got a 14k crit from malicious backstab, the only time i see people dying to them is my wvw braindead team8s who are only good in 50vs50 scenarios, or when my team8s standing int he backline with off cds and around 0-75% hp, Soulbeast beats dead eye easily, holo beats it, mirage beats it, Spellbreaker 50-50, drd beats it basically evry roamer class beats it, i dunno what low tier NA server u on but i hardly ever see a competitive DE in wvw, and when i see it, it usually explodes when 2+ vs him i am not on NA. and i havent seen an opponent that can reliably defeat my deadeye several times in a row in 1 on 1 combat. once by suprise maybe. might be that like all people i run into just suck badly but i play alot and this would more or less mean there are no good roamers in EU wvw at all. and yes i also kill all the deadeyes i run into .. so what? 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MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > Well more confusion Inc.: > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. 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Alatar.7364 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. > > You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. > So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. > wait why do i have 4k less HP ? i mean valk has more damage than marauder and there i a valk set in spvp. going berserk doesnt justify the HP loss , the damage gain is too low. 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Alatar.7364 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > > > > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > > > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > > > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. > > > > You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. > > So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. > > > wait why do i have 4k less HP ? i mean valk has more damage than marauder and there i a valk set in spvp. going berserk doesnt justify the HP loss , the damage gain is too low. Why Valkyrie? Only instance I can think of is going for CS with Hiden Killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > > > > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > > > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > > > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > > > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > > > > > > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > > > > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > > > > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. > > > > > > You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. > > > So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. > > > > > wait why do i have 4k less HP ? i mean valk has more damage than marauder and there i a valk set in spvp. going berserk doesnt justify the HP loss , the damage gain is too low. > > Why Valkyrie? Only instance I can think of is going for CS with Hiden Killer. correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > > > > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > > > > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > > > > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > > > > > > > > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > > > > > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > > > > > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. > > > > > > > > You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. > > > > So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. > > > > > > > wait why do i have 4k less HP ? i mean valk has more damage than marauder and there i a valk set in spvp. going berserk doesnt justify the HP loss , the damage gain is too low. > > > > Why Valkyrie? Only instance I can think of is going for CS with Hiden Killer. > > correct. Ah, Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlie.7641 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Arena net has pretty much removed every trick thieves have used to "even the odds". the complete dumbing down of thief is annoying. Jump cancel - removed Db + ports - removed vault stow leap - removed Cnd + Inf return - removed Black powder camera tilt - removed Ect Ect This may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but most of these "tricks" allowed more counterplay. which was needed to 1vs1. Last patch they removed Db + ports since it's the newest nerf i will use it as an example. but first let's talk about Death blossom a bit. The evade frame (iframe) on DB doesn't start until around the apex of your "leap". this skill used to have a 1/4 evade frame but they changed it to 1/2seconds last year (?) the 1/4 evade added is on the back end of the evade When fighting spell breakers a legitimate startergy was to "bait"the spell breaker by standing 350+ radius infront of the warrior. the majority of the time the warrior would then use WW (whirlwind attack), to which you (the thief) would use db + port, since warriors have pulsing stability the odds of interupting WW was slim, but by that time the Iframe on DB would be active, which allowed you to dodge there backswing and allow a nice setup for a Cnd. since you can no longer do this (...) you will die a horrible death trying to attempt this now. Are odd's on a d/d setup vs warriors have went from "Slim" to "Not likely". This just doesn't apply to warrior either. this was a good counter to a good number of channeling skills (like rapid fire 3 round burst, ect) although it was situational you could also use this combo to escape those Aoe fields of doom too. Tl Dr: removing are "Tricks" are making 1vs1 much less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP. > > > > > > > > > > That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high. > > > > > > > > > > Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected. > > > > > > > > > yet read the description in the OP's post again : > > > > > > > > > 'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.' > > > > > > > > > so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such rule is not there, at least not on the ones I've been to. > > > > > > > > It is what I am talking about, that regarding PvP, Thief in such a state that it won't "be deadly in 1v1" even if it jumps and completely surprises it's target and that in WvW it works as it should. (if played that way, which is probably the right way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you try to kill people by getting the jump on them, you abuse frontloaded pressure. wich thief can build for to some degree, it works on squishies and bad players in WvW indeed. but even against better players a thief can build to be really strong. > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye especially with m7 over BQoBK is that it is no longer front loaded. front loaded is terrible for 1 vs 1. the chances a deadeye especially a stealthy one wins a fight increase the longer the fight lasts. > > > > > > > as etheri rightly pointed out the thief has the ability to pick fights aswell as to disengage and reengage at will, wich when wisely done can create a situation with the opponent no longer prepared for the thief, then a thief becomes deadly. > > > > > > > the good thing about deadeye is that it is viable with SA. it has enough damage to be able to take it. SA gives you the option to reset the fight on your side within seconds while keeping your opponent infight and maybe even forcing them to use cooldowns trying to predict your engage. that is extremly strong for duels as you can abuse the thieves strength in resetting fights without granting this reset to your opponent and this much more frequently. combine this with the deadeye becoming stronger over time due to malice build up, that makes for a very deadly mix. > > > > > > > but well if you play like that people will just call it cheesy no skill etc. and not the thief being strong in one on one combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal. > > > > > > > > > > now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)? > > > > > > > > Well more confusion Inc.: > > > > It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves. > > > > While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS. > > > > You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights. > > > > > > an opponent has to kill a deadeye in one go within very short time. now most builds cant do that in WvW with me having a range advantage, 21k hp and them having only ~2,5s to apply their burst. this makes me even more durable in spvp as they ontop will have lower burst. > > > at the same time my while i have less burst i wont run into that thanky builds, like here i often got to fight funny builds like trailblaizer mirage, wont run into such tanky builds in spvp so i am certain my burst will be high enough. > > > the space could be the only issue. against some builds it is advised to utilize a range advantage, if you do not have enough space to use enough range this can get more risky. actually would have to try how much that matters as again them having lower burst means i can play more aggresive. > > > > You will have lower Armor stats, 4k less HP (10k less if you go for pure dmg), and I am quite sure some skills still kept the WvW/PvP split. > > So, in sPvP other professions have such a high dmg that you might as well end up playing defensively in certain scenarios. > > > wait why do i have 4k less HP ? i mean valk has more damage than marauder and there i a valk set in spvp. going berserk doesnt justify the HP loss , the damage gain is too low. Correct. I use Valkyrie across a number of builds as that health needed. Hidden Killer, sigils of intelligence and daredevil runes in some combination make up for precision loss as does traits like BqoBk , Unrelenting strikes and the like. The +2 seconds 100 percent crits after the initial attack with HK is overlooked by many. The Rifle bonus to crit chance also overlooked. I do not know how they fare with 11k in pvp , but in WvW a single hit can do you in and it just not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > I propose a trade. > > We completely gut thieves ability to stealth and be obnoxiously mobile allowing them to pick any fight THEY want and disengage any fight which they don't want; and we can give them some kind of duellist presence. I actualy agree with this to some degree, certain weapon sets could trade in some stealth for other things. P/P for example has little synergy with stealth to begin with (and it doesn't really fit thematically either) so unload could apply the "revealed" debuff (which would make sense since it's quite the attention grabber) in exchange for more sustainability (and 4 new weapon skills). This way you would have a stronger distinction between dual pistol and rifle (which is desperately needed) with one focusing more on burst damage from stealth and the other more on continuous pressure in direct engagements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemyst.2165 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Thief can 1v1. It's just that in conquest, a thief is usually much more useful picking off targets, flitting around the map, decapping and harassing. Thief is also hindered by the fact that it's harder for them to fight on and hold points due to stealth and a reliance on mobility. Time to kill is also a factor; if you can't win the fight fast, and it's not your point, then you might as well just help your team on a different point. All of these factors in conquest work against the thief. There are situations where a 1v1 is plausible, but most of the time it's just not. In all fairness, that goes for a lot of other classes too, not just thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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