why do people relegate a weapon to "utility" as an excuse for it being bad

[phs.6089]

They are not bad they are situational, hence we have 2 sets of weapon, almost in any game mod, you have dps/utility. In case of your rangers would be longbow/shorbow/gs // x/**warhorn **for instance. I love my staff mesmer i use it almost anywhere tho it doesn't have great dps either. Almost any time my guardian has a shield etc

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> Can we stop using "he's an elctrician" as an excuse for repairmen being bad at fixing my toilet.

>

 

Are you telling me that this wirestripper is not the right tool for fixing a leak in the john? How dare you, sir! How _dare_ you!

[Bawi.9541]

because they are 'utility' players?

[Coyote.8391]

You mean the thief short bow? It's not a bad weapon, just not the biggest damage dealer that thieves have. It offers a teleport, an evade, a poison field, and the #2 skill is pretty good for damage if you know how to use it right. (Unfortunately, I don't, so I mainly just use all the other skills. Bad thief is bad lol!)

[Jojo.6140]

Mesmer focus is fine imo, but the staff on the other side i cant see the use for that. Ive never encountered a mesmer with staff in pve and only once in spvp and that was years ago. It feels really weak.

[Egorum.9506]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

 

It's the main utility weapon on necro because it has everything you could want. Range, aoe, condi clear, unblockable when traited (big in pvp with sigil of annulment), and okay power damage.

 

If you aren't getting much out of it you aren't using it right =/

[Tails.9372]

> @"Coyote.8391" said:

> the #2 skill is pretty good for damage if you know how to use it right. (Unfortunately, I don't, so I mainly just use all the other skills. Bad thief is bad lol!)

Skill 2 is garbage even if you know how to use it "efficiently", that's why you never see anyone use it to kill mobs. You pretty much ignore cluster bomb and go for detonate cluster instead (but even then the damage is below average at best) which forces you into close range so you might as well use a proper close range weapon instead. The skill would probably be fine if detonate cluster was turned into a secondary explosion which accrues after the initial one but in its current state it's just not practical.

[Coyote.8391]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Coyote.8391" said:

> > the #2 skill is pretty good for damage if you know how to use it right. (Unfortunately, I don't, so I mainly just use all the other skills. Bad thief is bad lol!)

> Skill 2 is garbage even if you know how to use it "efficiently", that's why you never see anyone use it to kill mobs. You pretty much ignore cluster bomb and go for detonate cluster instead (but even then the damage is below average at best) which forces you into close range so you might as well use a proper close range weapon instead. The skill would probably be fine if detonate cluster was turned into a secondary explosion which accrues after the initial one but in its current state it's just not practical.

 

Oh, really? I just assumed it was because I was using it wrong and not because the actual skill was bad lol.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Coyote.8391" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Coyote.8391" said:

> > > the #2 skill is pretty good for damage if you know how to use it right. (Unfortunately, I don't, so I mainly just use all the other skills. Bad thief is bad lol!)

> > Skill 2 is garbage even if you know how to use it "efficiently", that's why you never see anyone use it to kill mobs. You pretty much ignore cluster bomb and go for detonate cluster instead (but even then the damage is below average at best) which forces you into close range so you might as well use a proper close range weapon instead. The skill would probably be fine if detonate cluster was turned into a secondary explosion which accrues after the initial one but in its current state it's just not practical.

>

> Oh, really? I just assumed it was because I was using it wrong and not because the actual skill was bad lol.

 

Technically, it can work as either an easy blast finisher or a source of bleeding. You won't be using it often, but it's there when you need it and you don't miss out on anything due to thief's initiative mechanic.

[bara yaoi.3824]

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

>

> It's the main utility weapon on necro because it has everything you could want. Range, aoe, condi clear, unblockable when traited (big in pvp with sigil of annulment), and okay power damage.

>

> If you aren't getting much out of it you aren't using it right =/

 

how is that a utility weapon? its just a bad weapon.. it offers no utility at all

 

it doesnt have

- teleport

- evasion

- stun

- boons

- damage

- defense

- healing

 

it is literally worthless because it is a weak mix of power and condi and can't figure out what it wants to do, and yet it is relegated to a "utility" weapon even though it has NO utility whatsoever

[Hesacon.8735]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > If you've spent any time in spvp or wvw, you'd know every single thief carries this weapon for movement. If anything it's the most important weapon in a thief's arsenal.

> So what? The topic of this thread is that a weapon being used as a tool isn't an excuse for it being a bad weapon e.g. infiltrator's arrow being used for utility isn't an excuse for cluster bomb failing on the most basic level.

>

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > Nobody is using it for damage.

> Exactly, that's why it fits as an example for the premise of this thread.

 

If you screw with shortbow 5 and maybe 4, you kill the class; and if you improve the other skills you make it overpowered. Shortbow is in a good place for balance.

[Egorum.9506]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

> >

> > It's the main utility weapon on necro because it has everything you could want. Range, aoe, condi clear, unblockable when traited (big in pvp with sigil of annulment), and okay power damage.

> >

> > If you aren't getting much out of it you aren't using it right =/

>

> how is that a utility weapon? its just a bad weapon.. it offers no utility at all

>

> it doesnt have

> - teleport

> - evasion

> - stun

> - boons

> - damage

> - defense

> - healing

>

> it is literally worthless because it is a weak mix of power and condi and can't figure out what it wants to do, and yet it is relegated to a "utility" weapon even though it has NO utility whatsoever

 

For pve it's garbage sure, but it's great for pvp.

 

On demand, unblockable stab strip and fear in pvp? Poison and chill plus a poison field to slow down someone trying to run or heal? Full condi cleanse in wvw +6k damage per target? 20% LF per AA cast in wvw? The 2 skill is the only one that's worthless, the rest are actually pretty good

[Tails.9372]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > If you've spent any time in spvp or wvw, you'd know every single thief carries this weapon for movement. If anything it's the most important weapon in a thief's arsenal.

> > So what? The topic of this thread is that a weapon being used as a tool isn't an excuse for it being a bad weapon e.g. infiltrator's arrow being used for utility isn't an excuse for cluster bomb failing on the most basic level.

> >

> > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > Nobody is using it for damage.

> > Exactly, that's why it fits as an example for the premise of this thread.

>

> If you screw with shortbow 5 and maybe 4, you kill the class; and if you improve the other skills you make it overpowered. Shortbow is in a good place for balance.

"Screwing with skill 4" would not be able to kill the class and the fact that skill 5 is the only reason the class isn't "dead" yet shows that there's a bigger underlying problem which needs to be addressed but that's beside the point here. And no, making skills like Cluster Bomb capable of properly fulfilling its role would not make the class "OP". Stop whiteknighting bad game design.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

> >

> > It's the main utility weapon on necro because it has everything you could want. Range, aoe, condi clear, unblockable when traited (big in pvp with sigil of annulment), and okay power damage.

> >

> > If you aren't getting much out of it you aren't using it right =/

>

> how is that a utility weapon? its just a bad weapon.. it offers no utility at all

>

> it doesnt have

> - teleport

> - evasion

> - stun

> - boons

> - damage

> - defense

> - healing

>

> it is literally worthless because it is a weak mix of power and condi and can't figure out what it wants to do, and yet it is relegated to a "utility" weapon even though it has NO utility whatsoever

 

You might be doing it wrong. With the staff, you are able to land an unblockable AoE burst of chill, poison, up to 3 other conditions from yourself, then fear and bleeding to make it harder to cleanse, while building up life force to immediately follow up with shroud skills.

You don't camp the staff, you use it for quick bursts or, less often, easy cleanses/fears, then swap weapons. Necromancer's shroud mechanic allows for such playstyle.

[Hesacon.8735]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > > If you've spent any time in spvp or wvw, you'd know every single thief carries this weapon for movement. If anything it's the most important weapon in a thief's arsenal.

> > > So what? The topic of this thread is that a weapon being used as a tool isn't an excuse for it being a bad weapon e.g. infiltrator's arrow being used for utility isn't an excuse for cluster bomb failing on the most basic level.

> > >

> > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > > > Nobody is using it for damage.

> > > Exactly, that's why it fits as an example for the premise of this thread.

> >

> > If you screw with shortbow 5 and maybe 4, you kill the class; and if you improve the other skills you make it overpowered. Shortbow is in a good place for balance.

> "Screwing with skill 4" would not be able to kill the class and the fact that skill 5 is the only reason the class isn't "dead" yet shows that there's a bigger underlying problem which needs to be addressed but that's beside the point here. And no, making skills like Cluster Bomb capable of properly fulfilling its role would not make the class "OP". Stop whiteknighting bad game design.

 

I'm not "whiteknighting," I'm patiently explaining why the weapon is in a good place as a player who spends most of his wvw time on thief and wins 95% of his 1v1s (fuck spellbreakers). The reason the class works is because of skill 5, and it adds an element to the game not to camp the weapon in fights. Camping shortbow will win you exactly no fights 1v1, but gains usefulness in team fights. Nothing about shortbow "needs to be addressed." It sounds like you're asking for a strong weapon to become broken.

 

If you have an issue with it, use a different weapon or spend some time learning how the class works. There are several other weapons for the class, pick a set that suits you better.

[bara yaoi.3824]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > @"Egorum.9506" said:

> > > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > > the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

> > >

> > > It's the main utility weapon on necro because it has everything you could want. Range, aoe, condi clear, unblockable when traited (big in pvp with sigil of annulment), and okay power damage.

> > >

> > > If you aren't getting much out of it you aren't using it right =/

> >

> > how is that a utility weapon? its just a bad weapon.. it offers no utility at all

> >

> > it doesnt have

> > - teleport

> > - evasion

> > - stun

> > - boons

> > - damage

> > - defense

> > - healing

> >

> > it is literally worthless because it is a weak mix of power and condi and can't figure out what it wants to do, and yet it is relegated to a "utility" weapon even though it has NO utility whatsoever

>

> You might be doing it wrong. With the staff, you are able to land an unblockable AoE burst of chill, poison, up to 3 other conditions from yourself, then fear and bleeding to make it harder to cleanse, while building up life force to immediately follow up with shroud skills.

> You don't camp the staff, you use it for quick bursts or, less often, easy cleanses/fears, then swap weapons. Necromancer's shroud mechanic allows for such playstyle.

 

ok but this thread isn't about pvp. its about pve

 

When would I ever even get conditions on myself in pve? Why would I ever have the need to transfer them? When would an enemy ever block my attacks? These things are so rare and niche it makes this so called "utility" not useful at all in everyday play

 

The condition skills have little to no stacks on them and don't even last a long time compared to other necro weapons that there is just no point when you can just swap to another weapon that applies more stacks for a longer duration.

 

That's the thing; pretty much every good weapon there is on a class IS able to be camped because it has a good set and doesn't require switching to anything else. Even on Necro, scourge can just run scepter / torch by itself and Reaper run greatsword and axe/warhorn, pumping out more damage while still having utility more than they ever could if they had staff even as a swap weapon

 

all these other aforementioned that do great damage STILL have more utility than this staff. Yet staff is forced into a one-off side weapon that is impossible to use as a main weapon in pve because of how bad it is, but no player cares because of how conditioned they are into this mindset of "ITS A UTILITY WEAPON IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE GOOD!!1"

 

[bara yaoi.3824]

i'm sure there are also more weapons on other classes that are also ignored because they are "utility" so i will do more digging and find out what they are and make a case for them

 

 

[Hesacon.8735]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> ok but this thread isn't about pvp. its about pve

 

 

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> every class has 2-3 largely ignored, unpolished and bad weapons that are relegated to "utility" weapons as an excuse for them not recieving any reworks ever

>

> there shouldn't be a distinction between utility weapons and weapons that do damage

>

> there should be weapons that do good damage, and weapons that do slightly less damage but with some utility, not completely horrible damage with useless utility

>

> players should be able to use the weapon they want on able class and be able to do damage

>

> "utility" is not an excuse for a weapon being in a bad state

 

I don't see that in the original post. GW2 is a game with multiple game modes, and a lot of the weapons being trashed for being bad in pve are really good in spvp, wvw, or both.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> I'm explaining why the weapon is in a good place

Which just shows that you failed to understand the premise of this thread (or the posts you're responding to for that matter), nobody was saying that SB is useless as a tool but as you yourself correctly said:

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> Nobody is using it for damage.

which is why it fails as a weapon.

 

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> Nothing about shortbow "needs to be addressed." It sounds like you're asking for a strong weapon to become broken.

It sounds more like as if you don't have any idea of what makes a weapon broken. Diversity alone is not enough to put a weapon set over the edge and there's little to no synergy between these skills, quite the opposite since they are taking away from the other. They're also unique in their application so (unlike with the rifle skills) it wouldn't make anythig else obsolete.

 

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> If you have an issue with it, use a different weapon or **spend some time learning how the class works**. There are several other weapons for the class, pick a set that suits you better.

Right back at ya, one would expect that someone who plays thief knows that SB is the only ranged based AoE weapon the class has access to but it seems like you just want to keep stuff dysfunctional for the sake of preserving the status quo. Like I said: whiteknighting bad game design.

[Ben K.6238]

If it fails as a weapon, why are so many people using it?

[otto.5684]

OP, I totally agree. There are boat load of weapons that are not useful in PvE, at all. They do not necessarily need remake, mostly just a buff to AA or 1-2 skills. Will it happen. Considering that after 6 years Anet finally managed to have 1 power and 1 condi builds playable in PvE group setting (except necro and condi ele), I do not think will see this any time soon.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

 

> ok but this thread isn't about pvp. its about pve

 

Yes, necromancer's staff is suboptimal in PvE.

To be honest, most vanilla necromancer's strong points aren't needed in PvE. For example, during map completion I had to resort to minions because other utility skills are too niche (for PvE). At least the staff boasts a range of 1200 whereas no other weapon does.

 

> When would I ever even get conditions on myself in pve? Why would I ever have the need to transfer them?

 

Though I must point out that necromancers have access to corruption skills which apply conditions to the caster. Condition transfer does make sense for necromancers because they can apply conditions to themselves.

[phs.6089]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> i'm sure there are also more weapons on other classes that are also ignored because they are "utility" so i will do more digging and find out what they are and make a case for them

>

Thing are simple, you want dps on both sets, use dps weapons, every class can afford to have 2 sets of dps and work on rotation to output the most damage.

Play a crono in berserk with GS , sword/sword. No one will tell you anything. But why? when you have a profession that can bring so much into table ?

 

Necro Staff is great to break bars in pve or slow down mobs btw

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

Can we sum this thread up as:

 

- pve player complains about some weapons being under used in pve because they do not provide sufficient damage

 

- same person fails to realise that other game modes exist which are less pure damage oriented

 

PvE is the most limited game mode in the game at the moment because it turns out, against predictable AI opponenets you are best off maximizing damage.

 

Not all weapons are balanced around pve, and neither should they because spvp and wvw are way more diverse in engagements. Overall game balance trumps personal desire.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

This isn’t just all about DPS. There is an element of RP and basic commonsense that needs to considered in the OP, considering this is PvE only.

 

Let’s consider a mace themed guardian, how guardian *is portrayed in its artwork*. Let’s say that the player doesn’t give jack squat about the absolute max dps but still wants to do some actual dmg to be considered a dps role. Why is it that the build is instantly 50% less effective in dmg compared to a greatsword/scepter? Throw longbow in there as well, *it’s on the dragonhunter art as well*. Does having a block with a lame bite or 1200 range REALLY give you that much of an UNFAIR advantage *against AI controlled mobs*?

 

The issue that the OP is looking at is quite basic; they’re not looking for weapons to do the exact same amount of dmg. But for PvE (where difference in utility and damage is a skritt-tonne smaller), when a weapon is flat-out around <75% effective as the best (replacing weapons on meta builds that don’t interact with weapon choice), that’s red lights for shoddy weapon development and lazy game consideration. 80% should be the furtherest and is already quite far (30k -> 24k). The amount of damage (in PvE) should be mostly dictated by trait choices and utility slot allocations, and not significantly by weapon choice. For one handed sets, the MH *should* have most of the damage, where the choice factors between OH weapons can have impact (where you can argue utility weapons shouldn’t have the missing ~15% dmg (or up to 5k dps) of the complete build).

 

It’s not just DPS. What if a rifle themed warrior wants to make it to high-end raid runs with their guild? A condi mirage with a scepter? You can’t just force them to switch to axes, or else you’re forcing their character to become a theme-less robots.