EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > After that all is well. > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. Who gave you a thumbs up? I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. Now, that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absinthey.5340 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 How can there possibly be people that think Mesmer doesn't need toned down? It's gotten to the point that there is absolutely zero reason of giving constructive criticism on the class - As many Mesmer mains are simply to blinded/ignorant to the issues surrounding it. Though, it really is a waste of time to even discuss balance issues surrounding ANY class... because the 1-3 PvP developers don't seem to act or understand balance in this game whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > Now, > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > Now, > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. yep too biased. i might as well discuss this with my cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > yep too biased. i might as well discuss this with my cat. Yeah your cat might actually think you're reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > yep too biased. i might as well discuss this with my cat. > > Yeah your cat might actually think you're reasonable. lol. you aint that bad hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StabbersTheThird.6053 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 My personal problem is that Mesmer is too safe. If I stun a Mesmer, there's nothing to stop them from popping all of their shatter skills in retaliation (which apparently on Chrono and Mirage, apply a kitTON of conditions). Mesmer is the only class I know that actively punishes the player engaging the Mesmer to an extent that engaging a Mesmer actually feels worse than simply retaliating after being hit. Stun, get stunned. Gun them down, they get stealth and a clone. Manage to get on them close? It's k, distortion then daze then they open up on you and you die. Nothing feels good to play against a Mesmer except core Necro, another Mesmer and condition trap ranger. Both of the non-mesmer builds are HORRENDOUS against just about every other build in the game. I honestly think adding some kind of cast restriction to their F1-F4 would do everything necessary to bring them in line. Being 100% bursted from stealth without any chance at counterplay on a class that also is the safest by default (without any abilities, utilities, runes, sigils, or otherwise- Mesmer is the safest profession in the game) feels BAD. I know I'll get shot down by a nuclear missile from class-carried Mesmers, but I needed to put my 2 cents in. I desperately wish that the shatter skills had a 1/4 cast time on them. Heck, a 1/8 would be fine idgaf. Just stop punishing ME for your awful awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > Now, > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. but wait theres more!!! not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. 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EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > but wait theres more!!! > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. all of my builds that relied on single target damage was hard countered, FA was just an example. you just agreed with me too by listing all the mechanics exclusive to mirage and even went as far to enforce what I was saying by listing more but I know it was an attempt to defend the class so I think im gunna join crab and his cat now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. > > all of my builds that relied on single target damage was hard countered, FA was just an example. > > you just agreed with me too by listing all the mechanics exclusive to mirage and even listed more regardless if its meta or not but I know it was an attempt to defend the class so I think im gunna join crab and his cat now. I just listed and rebutted things you mentioned I didn't say they were overtuned aside from what is actually overtuned. I have no idea where you drew your conclusion from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > > > > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > > > > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > > > > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > > > > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. > > > > all of my builds that relied on single target damage was hard countered, FA was just an example. > > > > you just agreed with me too by listing all the mechanics exclusive to mirage and even listed more regardless if its meta or not but I know it was an attempt to defend the class so I think im gunna join crab and his cat now. > > I just listed and rebutted things you mentioned I didn't say they were overtuned. I said too many secondary mechanics and you happily listed more. I also stated that this was just my opinion, im not asking for a nerf so calm down ok, the class will carry us both for now.... In the mean time when I beat naru, vallun or other top players its obviously because im more skilled than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > > > > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > > > > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > > > > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > > > > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > > > > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > > > > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > > > > > > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > > > > > > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > > > > > > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > > > > > > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. > > > > > > all of my builds that relied on single target damage was hard countered, FA was just an example. > > > > > > you just agreed with me too by listing all the mechanics exclusive to mirage and even listed more regardless if its meta or not but I know it was an attempt to defend the class so I think im gunna join crab and his cat now. > > > > I just listed and rebutted things you mentioned I didn't say they were overtuned. > > I said too many secondary mechanics and you happily listed more. > > I also stated that this was just my opinion, im not asking for a nerf so calm down ok, the class will carry us both for now. I didn't list more than you already mentioned. Unless you interpret clone swapping, which doesn't even exist, as different from clone SS, which again is on only two skills. Plus tbh single target has always and will always fall flat against Mesmer, for very obvious reasons. And please don't assume I need to be carried by anything, ad hominem weakens your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > yep too biased. i might as well discuss this with my cat. can I join? I feel like your cat could hold a conversation better than some here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change to a mirage dodge and what it does is pretty powerful. Slightly longer evade, you don't actually perform a dodge so you can do other skills while you use it, and that alone is pretty powerful compared to any other defensive mechanics other classes have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For it to work while stunned, that effect needs to be tied exclusively to EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, please do not try to act like a mirage does not have a loaded kit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This change would bring mesmer down to earth without touching anything else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With (the dodge while stunned) mechanic bound to the trait EM, mesmers would have to choose between defense at a cost, or offense like everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way it changes the dodge, and the other cool effects should stay, just not the "dodge while stunned", unless the choose EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait 1 second for a mesmer? Lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who gave you a thumbs up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play thief and I am pretty sure some kinda hammer is coming for stealth or and increase in reveal or a longer ammo cooldown for shadow meld... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in addition to some rifle damage being toned down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is what I have "reasoned" with myself would be the simplest and most logical fix. Outside of that, I find all mirages and mesmers to be fine. No class should be essentially immune to CC without a price. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say you think its fine? I respect that, but I don't think it's correct. I doubt I could convince you, I am assuming you are enjoying mirage (do you play it mainly?), and want to stay strong, but are you being objective? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the gimmick of the whole spec, it does not need to be locked behind a GM just like DD doesn't need its 3rd endurance bar locked behind a GM. Mirages only saving grace is that Mirage Cloak is good. Deceptions are meh at best and Axe is serviceable almost entirely because of Axe 3. I mean if you can't stay alive for an extra second against a Mirage maybe this isn't the game for you? Don't question my objectivity, especially about this. I'm objective because I care, and objectively looking at anything else Mirage brings to the Mesmer table causes my belief that Mirage Cloak is perfectly fine. And if a Mirage dodging while stunned is such a problem, again delay your burst ever so slightly, be less predictable, change your playstyle to adapt to the mechanic instead of whining to have it dumbed down for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On some classes I don't stand a chance against a Mesmer, on other classes they don't stand a chance against me... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that I feel is unfair is the ability to cast/channel while dodging, that seems outside of the parameters of what's allowed to all the other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats extremely OP but same I can say about photon forge, full counter etc that brought by other elite specs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"breno.5423" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just remove the break stun fact from dodge and its ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why? EM was never that good. Infinite horizon on the other hand... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > O , someone recognize IH being cancerous even more than EM ... About that ... Axe ambush is broken as hell , just compare it to scepter ambush for example , poor scepter pales in comparision . You could nerf this reflect dodge (that basically have no cd) , BD, bleeds on pistol a bit ,axe ambush , if you touch dodge duration mesmer playerbase will burn your house xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine if you could freely cast during full counter though... Just seems a little too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be casting while casting, that's entirely different. If you give Mirage a decent functioning mechanical change as opposed to a dodge modification sure, fine. Otherwise if all we get is a fancy new dodge that's slightly longer and no extra endurance either then channeling while doing it seems fair enough. The other two things the spec provides (Deceptions and Axe) are underwhelming and good respectively but don't justify not having Mirage Cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems the only real "issue" with mesmers right now is how mirage cloak works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the dodge mechanic change and the appearance to trick/confuse enemies, but it SHOULD NOT BE USABLE IF STUNNED > > > > > > > > > > > > **unless the player chooses EM trait.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the dev's tied a "exhaustion" fee to the trait, but you can still dodge while stunned even if you don't break stun, you still essentially negate the follow up burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe even all classes should get this "dodge on stun" ...even if it just move us a little away from the enemy so he can't do his burst (even if we can't use skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't sound right to me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not thematic, it's an unfair advantage in a competitive scene. It really should be tied to the trait with the "exhaustion" cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that all is well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with. Mirage gets nothing else aside from Deceptions and Axe and neither of those are good enough to justify Mirage Cloak being too strong with the spec. Like I said above, give Mirage a decent change to the class mechanic and I doubt anyone would be mad, but a dodge modification is completely in line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's not decent about the dodge itself? It's a cool cosmetic change and probably should have been that way from the start lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as for secondary mechanics, I honestly thought Mesmer got a lot of secondary mechanics with latest expansion... All the target breaking skills, mirage mirrors, swapping positions with clones, ambush skills like sword leap, a refillable stun break via endurance on dodge and casting while dodging.... All my Guardian got was tomes tomes tomes tomes tomes and tomes.... My ele was able to cross mix elements..... yea nothing actually compares or comes close to comparing with the ability to cast and channel while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge itself is sort of a slap in the face when Mesmers have wanted mechanical changes to shatters themselves akin to Scourge, or either Guardian elite spec and have been very vocal about it. Additionally, Mirage Cloak would be hot garbage without superspeed attached to it and without the slight time increase. Suddenly target breaking is too much because clones were literally a non issue before, but the one time Mesmers gain the ability to actually hide among their clones it's too much. To wit, the only frequent target break that's worth anything in particular is Mirage exclusive on Axe 3. The only skill core Mesmer has along that line is Mirror Images. Swapping positions with clones isn't an ability, I don't know where you got that from aside from Sword 3 which has been here since Vanilla. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills (one of three worthwhile skill types to even use during Mirage Cloak) are overtuned in one case. I'll admit that the Sword Ambush in particular which just does too much stuff, but almost all of the rest of them scale down with multiple targets (Axe especially). EM again was warned about by almost every Mesmer under the sun but ANet likes it thematically so I guess it's here to stay. Casting while dodging is, again, the entire gimmick of the spec. Your Guardian got one of the most over the top support specs in Tyria. Don't use ele being severely undertuned to justify your argument, them being incredibly poorly balanced does not mean Mirage Cloak is the best thing since sliced bread with lasers on it and a gold bar dispenser. Dodging and channeling is probably all well and good when you have skills that are worth covering but Mirage has, Ambush skills, a healing skill, or phantasm skills. Every other skill on Mesmer is either instant cast or not effective/important/worth enough to be covered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like youre assuming I dont play mes... I have 6 of them, its way over tuned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was ele main until this expansion, the amount of times I dies just retargetting was enough to bank the class as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell me why without using things I've already said are overtuned or Mirage Cloak. The condi burst, is overtuned sure, but that's a bigger problem since the only doable condition specs are burst ones right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > I already said why I think its over tuned and it had nothing to do with condi or builds.... I honestly think that area of mes is mostly balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > my thought on it being over tuned is what I said earlier, it didnt just get a secondary mechanic, it got secondary mechanics and casting while dodging imo is almost game breaking and I view it the same as Spellbreaker being able to use 100b while protected by full counter. > > > > > > > > > > > > but wait theres more!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > not only can we cast while dodging but we can literally dodge out of CC and skills like entangling vines which makes ranger elite useless while also simultaneously removing the need for active decision making, instead of dodging the stun, just eat the stun and keep moving like nothing happened.... > > > > > > > > > > > > every other class has to bring a stun break but not the mes, no need for 30s stun breaks when you can passively recharge it with sigils and endurance to use at whim. > > > > > > > > > > > > and then you got the other things I listed such as clone swapping which is unique to mirage, clone mirrors and so forth... target breaking I dislike as I met a few that take mirror images and other target breaking skills combined with stealth, it became a little too hard to play single target abilties against them such as FA build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it, nothing to do with builds or what ever, just how the secondary mechanics work and the abundance of them with the latest expansion. > > > > > > > > > > Your example falls short because Mirage Cloak doesn't let you cast Ambushes while channeling something else and Full Counter is a block and evade and an aoe attack as well Mesmer doesn't have a single channeled skill that's as impactful as 100b could be. > > > > > > > > > > I already said EM was overtuned, almost every other Mesmer on the OF did too. Nobody thought it was a good idea, but ANet likes the theme, there's not much we can do about it except wait until Tuesday. And if it's about dodging while stunned, same advice as before, learn to delay your burst, adapt. Any other class can use sigils or runes to recharge their dodges and nullify attacks, it just happens to synergize well with Mirage which is unfortunate. > > > > > > > > > > Clone Swapping? Do you mean shadowstepping them around your target which is literally only on Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush which no one takes? There is no swapping aside from Sword 3. Mirage Mirrors are pickups, everyone despises pick ups, it makes your movement and purpose incredibly obvious plus the only time Mirrors will appear on most builds is after they use Distortion, they're not oppressive. As far as target breaking I know there's no shortage of people who have posted what targeting settings you need to make that less effective. Sorry ANet decided clones should be a bit more than cleave fodder? > > > > > > > > > > So you got hard countered on FA weaver, pretty sure that was gonna happen on most Mesmer builds. > > > > > > > > all of my builds that relied on single target damage was hard countered, FA was just an example. > > > > > > > > you just agreed with me too by listing all the mechanics exclusive to mirage and even listed more regardless if its meta or not but I know it was an attempt to defend the class so I think im gunna join crab and his cat now. > > > > > > I just listed and rebutted things you mentioned I didn't say they were overtuned. > > > > I said too many secondary mechanics and you happily listed more. > > > > I also stated that this was just my opinion, im not asking for a nerf so calm down ok, the class will carry us both for now. > > I didn't list more than you already mentioned. Unless you interpret clone swapping, which doesn't even exist, as different from clone SS, which again is on only two skills. > > Plus tbh single target has always and will always fall flat against Mesmer, for very obvious reasons. And please don't assume I need to be carried by anything, ad hominem weakens your argument. see thats what you fail to understand, this isnt an arguement and there's nothing to win here. All you did was ignore what I said and put your own words into it somehow and even went as far to defend yourself and the class for absolutely no reason. now where is that cat!!!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Also how many target breaks etc can one take? Pretty much everyone takes Blink (anyone who doesn't is at a disadvantage). Most mirages will take Jaunt (for the very few who take something like mass invis you immediately know they have limited mobility). Some will take Portal. Then there's things like Mantras, etc. Therefore there's usually only one utility slot for any kind of stealth or target break, at most two, which will usually be things like Signet of Midnight or Illusionary Ambush (for the record Decoy is dead since removal of illusionist's celerity and no cooldown compensation. Signet of Midnight is objectively better). These cooldowns can be counted. At most in addition you may have axe3 and torch 4, but the latter is a long cooldown (nevermind the helpful audio cues), and good players know how to dodge axe 3 and retarget after it (I've listed in the past possible scenarios for follow ups to axe 3 that make it straightforward to retarget). Another side issue with overloading on target breaks is Evasive Mirror + Stealth = some of the worst anti-synergy in the game. Even if only using a single stealth one has to be extremely careful so as not to proc reveal, rendering any stealth skill useless. The only swap with clone skill I can think of is Mirage Advance - this skill is terrible compared with other utilities. You have 15 seconds after the initial cast to retreat leaving a clone in your place, and breaking target. But the advance has a cast time, no evade and only 900 range. When compared with something like Illusionary Ambush there is no contest and certainly no space to take both given many more useful utilities. And Mirror Images - lol anyone using this is sacrificing better utilities. I appreciate the concept by Anet but in practice it's a joke. In any case target breaking is one of my favorite features of mirage - finally it is possible to, for a moment (or a few seconds), to play like mesmer should - granted the only way this is happening is Illusionary Ambush in a ranged weapon (staff/GS/Scepter) followed by standing still for a moment (depending on position and aoe/cleave etc). Bottom line - as a mirage, in a number of ways I find it easier to fight against another mirage than say a very good spellbreaker, holo or excellent thief (talking wvw here but the overall point still applies). I find there to be more windows of opportunity to exploit for mirage, or at least when you do find a window you are able to burst hard as they don't have much innate sustain. This is just a personal observation. And on that note I find power mirage to be much more dangerous than pure condi. At least condi gives chances to recover from any mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > It should not have any stealth, no evades & 1 dodge only. > & should only summon 1 clone at a time before summoning the next. Then we might be happy. I was taking you serious up until this point. So because you can't beat them, you want them to be nerfed to the point it becomes more useless than a rev so you can get a free kill? HA! You are cute...delusional but cute. Not even scourge deserves that kind of nerf. Ghost sniper DE maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Senteliks.2360" said: > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > To many clones. I wasting my burst on clones instead of the mesmer. Plz nerf the number of clones 1 at a time so i can target the mesmer. & plz remove stealth. > > > Mesmer with stealth is OP. & Also remove Elusive minds & Ambush from Mirage traits. > > > Thq > > > > You are basically asking to re-design the class or just make it plain useless. The limit is already set, it's 3 clones per say. "Unlimited" is just illusion for people like you who don't > > get idea that clones are generated by certain conditions, which mirage makes much easier and brainless. But at all times there can only be 3 clones. And remove Ambush from Mirage and you get useless specialization. Pff people just never cease to amaze me. > > > > While Mesmer in good player hands is challenging so is Thief, Warrior, Elemental, Engineer, Revenant, Ranger, Guardian, Necromancer (famous 2 hit win scourge BS move). Basically every profession on it's own to deal is pain in good hands. Revenant being an exception and Engineer because it requires too much effort to perform well. > > > > Rather, than giving pointless vent, how about constructive ideas to solve the problem. Look at the SB, pets doing all the hard lifting, or SB, or wait, where is the end to this? Whole balance is the mess and it's not just one profession that will fix it. > > Gw2 should cater to my type of game play where i don't have to work to win. It should be easy & should not use any of my brain power or skills for me to win. So you are lazy and don't want to actually learn to play? gawd I hope you are joking because if not, then no one can respect your thoughts here going forward. You just admitted you dont want to l2p, so why play the game then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > @"Senteliks.2360" said: > > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > To many clones. I wasting my burst on clones instead of the mesmer. Plz nerf the number of clones 1 at a time so i can target the mesmer. & plz remove stealth. > > > > Mesmer with stealth is OP. & Also remove Elusive minds & Ambush from Mirage traits. > > > > Thq > > > > > > You are basically asking to re-design the class or just make it plain useless. The limit is already set, it's 3 clones per say. "Unlimited" is just illusion for people like you who don't > > > get idea that clones are generated by certain conditions, which mirage makes much easier and brainless. But at all times there can only be 3 clones. And remove Ambush from Mirage and you get useless specialization. Pff people just never cease to amaze me. > > > > > > While Mesmer in good player hands is challenging so is Thief, Warrior, Elemental, Engineer, Revenant, Ranger, Guardian, Necromancer (famous 2 hit win scourge BS move). Basically every profession on it's own to deal is pain in good hands. Revenant being an exception and Engineer because it requires too much effort to perform well. > > > > > > Rather, than giving pointless vent, how about constructive ideas to solve the problem. Look at the SB, pets doing all the hard lifting, or SB, or wait, where is the end to this? Whole balance is the mess and it's not just one profession that will fix it. > > > > Gw2 should cater to my type of game play where i don't have to work to win. It should be easy & should not use any of my brain power or skills for me to win. > > So you are lazy and don't want to actually learn to play? gawd I hope you are joking because if not, then no one can respect your thoughts here going forward. You just admitted you dont want to l2p, so why play the game then? > > I'm 99% sure Vieux P is trolling, given his usual defending of mesmer. Just read all of his posts with a gigantic /s at the end. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breno.5423 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > becomes more useless than a rev Rev useless? What game are you playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > @"Senteliks.2360" said: > > > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > > > > To many clones. I wasting my burst on clones instead of the mesmer. Plz nerf the number of clones 1 at a time so i can target the mesmer. & plz remove stealth. > > > > > Mesmer with stealth is OP. & Also remove Elusive minds & Ambush from Mirage traits. > > > > > Thq > > > > > > > > You are basically asking to re-design the class or just make it plain useless. The limit is already set, it's 3 clones per say. "Unlimited" is just illusion for people like you who don't > > > > get idea that clones are generated by certain conditions, which mirage makes much easier and brainless. But at all times there can only be 3 clones. And remove Ambush from Mirage and you get useless specialization. Pff people just never cease to amaze me. > > > > > > > > While Mesmer in good player hands is challenging so is Thief, Warrior, Elemental, Engineer, Revenant, Ranger, Guardian, Necromancer (famous 2 hit win scourge BS move). Basically every profession on it's own to deal is pain in good hands. Revenant being an exception and Engineer because it requires too much effort to perform well. > > > > > > > > Rather, than giving pointless vent, how about constructive ideas to solve the problem. Look at the SB, pets doing all the hard lifting, or SB, or wait, where is the end to this? Whole balance is the mess and it's not just one profession that will fix it. > > > > > > Gw2 should cater to my type of game play where i don't have to work to win. It should be easy & should not use any of my brain power or skills for me to win. > > > > So you are lazy and don't want to actually learn to play? gawd I hope you are joking because if not, then no one can respect your thoughts here going forward. You just admitted you dont want to l2p, so why play the game then? > > > > > > I'm 99% sure Vieux P is trolling, given his usual defending of mesmer. Just read all of his posts with a gigantic /s at the end. ;) Thats what I thought, however in the PvP forums you never know :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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