Is support scourge worth it?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> If they slightly increased the base Might duration on Abrasive Grit (and in general on things like Dessicate),

 

Necromancer's boon duration indedd tend to be a tiny bit to short.

 

> added a Trait for a ~10% damage modifier to allies affected by your barriers or standing in your Shade (maybe reworking Sand Savant to do this while reducing Shade Skill damage with the Trait, making it a proper support Trait),

 

That's a bad idea. Yes druid have it, however it would be better to avoid such traits. Ideally, they modify ranger's frost spirit passive to get rid of this kind of effects. Now, if they do that, it might very well be the end of the druid in PvE which would become another whole issue i guess.

 

> while adding some group wide Fury to Scourge, it could easily compete with Druid for the Meta Spot, making it about Utility like Entangle, projectile defense, condi cleanse, barrier and recovery potential to decide on a fight by fight basis.

 

based on what you suggest, you'd still take druid for the extra %age of damage given by frost spirit and then you'd still make sure to reduce to the bare minimum the losses of damages of your group by cutting down the support investment to the minimum. At best, what you suggest lead the scourge to a role similar to the warrior banner slave but it does not make scourge compete with druid. This doesn't make scourge compete for a support spot, but make the scourge a new "mandatory" support/dps spec that take the place of a dps.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > If they slightly increased the base Might duration on Abrasive Grit (and in general on things like Dessicate),

>

> Necromancer's boon duration indedd tend to be a tiny bit to short.

>

> > added a Trait for a ~10% damage modifier to allies affected by your barriers or standing in your Shade (maybe reworking Sand Savant to do this while reducing Shade Skill damage with the Trait, making it a proper support Trait),

>

> That's a bad idea. Yes druid have it, however it would be better to avoid such traits. Ideally, they modify ranger's frost spirit passive to get rid of this kind of effects. Now, if they do that, it might very well be the end of the druid in PvE which would become another whole issue i guess.

>

> > while adding some group wide Fury to Scourge, it could easily compete with Druid for the Meta Spot, making it about Utility like Entangle, projectile defense, condi cleanse, barrier and recovery potential to decide on a fight by fight basis.

>

> based on what you suggest, you'd still take druid for the extra %age of damage given by frost spirit and then you'd still make sure to reduce to the bare minimum the losses of damages of your group by cutting down the support investment to the minimum. At best, what you suggest lead the scourge to a role similar to the warrior banner slave but it does not make scourge compete with druid. This doesn't make scourge compete for a support spot, but make the scourge a new "mandatory" support/dps spec that take the place of a dps.

 

How so? If Scourge Might stacks, Heals and provides Fury, while gaining it's own group damage buff comparable to Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment while giving up personal DPS for it (which isn't high to begin with in Harrier/Magi gear), it directly competes with Druid, and not at all with what a BS provides, aka Banners and moderate DPS.

 

Could you elaborate on that?

 

Removing or nerfing damage buffs from Druid might be even better, as it makes not only Scourge, but also heal Rev, FB and Tempest more viable, giving people finally plentiful choice when it comes to playing Support, but I personally dislike asking for nerfs, and people are usually not very receptive to that.

Druid would also need to be buffed as healer if that were the case.

 

Although no DPS buff on any Healer might remove them completely from content like Fractals at least, with how supreme Chrono rules the game.

[Dadnir.5038]

Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

 

The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

 

And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

>

> The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

>

> And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

 

So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

 

Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

 

It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

[Radjan Majere.4208]

Can a main scourge set me square on something?

 

In Teapot's video (around 6:20) he talked about traited shade skills impacting 10-wide (.e.g. a whole raid). I don;t think it's an accident, as he makes the distinction about other skills being for party/subgroup.

 

I play scourge a little but not for high-level (raid, T4s, WvW). I have a DPS build I'm not great at or have ever tried to raid with, but I do run mid-tier fractals for globs and just because, and I do swap to blood magic vs my pure DPS setup. I don't give up all the dmg traits for barrier, and there are other things I do for playstyle and my own enjoyment, but the concept is similar. Since I've never raided with it, I'm not sure I've uncovered if the tooltips are wrong, but even with the trait my shade skill only list a 5-target max. Is it 5 on you, 5 on the shade that don't overlap and somehow that ends up doing 10? Or is he assuming that but that's not how it works? I halfass looked for a time when he hit f3 and 100% of the party members were close and got barrier, but I figured someone here might know with less work.

 

I enjoy the heck out of it just running blood - between your barriers timed to dmg and the rez-ability, even while set up for DPS (mostly viper) and not running dagger I can still save groups from themselves, and if a group is really struggling I can make swaps to keep lowering my dps by taking support traits until my group can live through it.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> >

> > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> >

> > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

>

> So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

>

> Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

>

> It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

 

The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > >

> > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > >

> > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> >

> > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> >

> > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> >

> > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

>

> The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

 

Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

 

The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

 

Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

 

If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

 

Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > > >

> > > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > > >

> > > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> > >

> > > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> > >

> > > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> > >

> > > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

> >

> > The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

>

> Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

>

> The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

> There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

>

> Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

> Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

> Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

>

> If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

>

> Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

 

I don't think that is true because in general people do not care if the difference between the dps classes are small enough. If you look at the dps classes right now where weavers and DE are at the top. No group will say no if you bring in a holo, DD, DH, or any other dps class because a 2-4k dps difference between classes is perfectly acceptable. Removing the unique buffs means that people will no longer reserve a spot just for that class and that is perfectly fine. Sure there should be compensation buffs if banner or druid spirits become standardized or removed but it does not mean it should be in the game at this point without some sort change. Chrono right now is the biggest raid issue and we should not try to revolve around class instead of figuring out ways to bring it down to normal.

 

Warriors were perfectly fine dps classes during the days of burnzerk or even last patch of condi warrior, power spellbreaker. They are required because of banners but in no way do they absolutely need it. If banners are removed then warriors will not be taken because they do about 30k personal dps. But if you buff it to 33-34k level the nobody will bat an eye when warriors apply. They will just not be absolutely required. Same as druids as they are still excellent might stackers even without spirits, just need to tune heals up a bit if buffs are removed but in no way would they stop functioning without it.

 

Literally the only reason why necromancers are not brought in as dps is because they don't do enough dps, it has nothing to do without having a group aura. That is literally it. Dps is dps and I don't see the difference between doing 30k dps or 25k personal dps and 5k group dps. Warriors for example technically do 40k dps because of the banners but you can only bring one for max effectiveness. That is why every group wants one. If necros always did high enough damage on the levels of guardians, engineers, revs etc then they will be in the group and is simple as that.

 

Removing unique damage buffs means that groups will be far more willing to take classes instead of worry about what sort of buffs they bring. Your entire worry is that people will just take the highest dps class is not something to worry about because we already do that, just a bit more hidden. The difference is simply that most people have a margin of acceptable dps instead of taking the absolute best one every time. WoW already went through this rollcoaster of unique class buffs, let's not continue the mistake even longer.

 

 

 

 

[Asum.4960]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> > > >

> > > > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > > > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> > > >

> > > > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> > > >

> > > > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > > > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

> > >

> > > The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

> >

> > Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

> >

> > The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

> > There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

> >

> > Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

> > Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

> > Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

> >

> > If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

> >

> > Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

>

> I don't think that is true because in general people do not care if the difference between the dps classes are small enough. If you look at the dps classes right now where weavers and DE are at the top. No group will say no if you bring in a holo, DD, DH, or any other dps class because a 2-4k dps difference between classes is perfectly acceptable. Removing the unique buffs means that people will no longer reserve a spot just for that class and that is perfectly fine. Sure there should be compensation buffs if banner or druid spirits become standardized or removed but it does not mean it should be in the game at this point without some sort change. Chrono right now is the biggest raid issue and we should not try to revolve around class instead of figuring out ways to bring it down to normal.

>

> Warriors were perfectly fine dps classes during the days of burnzerk or even last patch of condi warrior, power spellbreaker. They are required because of banners but in no way do they absolutely need it. If banners are removed then warriors will not be taken because they do about 30k personal dps. But if you buff it to 33-34k level the nobody will bat an eye when warriors apply. They will just not be absolutely required. Same as druids as they are still excellent might stackers even without spirits, just need to tune heals up a bit if buffs are removed but in no way would they stop functioning without it.

>

> Literally the only reason why necromancers are not brought in as dps is because they don't do enough dps, it has nothing to do without having a group aura. That is literally it. Dps is dps and I don't see the difference between doing 30k dps or 25k personal dps and 5k group dps. Warriors for example technically do 40k dps because of the banners but you can only bring one for max effectiveness. That is why every group wants one. If necros always did high enough damage on the levels of guardians, engineers, revs etc then they will be in the group and is simple as that.

>

> Removing unique damage buffs means that groups will be far more willing to take classes instead of worry about what sort of buffs they bring. Your entire worry is that people will just take the highest dps class is not something to worry about because we already do that, just a bit more hidden. The difference is simply that most people have a margin of acceptable dps instead of taking the absolute best one every time. WoW already went through this rollcoaster of unique class buffs, let's not continue the mistake even longer.

>

>

>

>

 

You might very well be right, I'm just not sure if I have the same confidence in the balance team to balance well enough to allow for class diversity, especially with how narrow minded this community has been since quite a while on what is okay to bring, without any unique damage buffs.

 

I'm aware Necromancers are not wanted because they simply don't do enough DPS. But that has been the case for 6 years.

DPS Spellbreaker was nerfed the very next patch, even though it was fine.

DH hasn't been updated in ages and has hugely fallen out of favour in Raids for many months (while somewhat kept alive by it's high burst and utility).

Power Rev and many other things still aren't really a thing.

 

..with this list going on and on, if personal DPS is the only thing that matters, I just think a lot of professions and builds will get left behind by the community, in favour of just more Chrono, Weaver, Deadeye and Holo, or whatever the next flavour of the patch DPS is.

In a perfect world and when I still had more confidence in the balance team, I would have and did absolutely agree with you about the removal of these unique buffs, and instead having good enough balance to put most DPS's and Supports on a even enough playing field to see class diversity that way.

Giving a class a unique buff is just an easy cop out to force diversity, but at least it works.

 

I can't be the only one who is getting tired of every group looking and feeling the same. But I guess that is mostly due to how broken and ever present Chrono is.

 

So while I agree that class diversity through good enough balance is absolutely the better way, I don't think ArenaNet can achieve diversity without forcing it with unique buffs despite the balance.

They have been buffing Reaper for years now, without it reaching the ~35k DPS it needs to be really welcome at all considering it's lack of utility when compared to a DH, while in other ways completely bloating it's solo potential, for what that matters.

 

Removing those buffs and "just buffing the professions to compensate" is much easier said than done..

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> > > > >

> > > > > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > > > > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> > > > >

> > > > > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> > > > >

> > > > > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > > > > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

> > > >

> > > > The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

> > >

> > > Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

> > >

> > > The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

> > > There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

> > >

> > > Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

> > > Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

> > > Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

> > >

> > > If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

> > >

> > > Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

> >

> > I don't think that is true because in general people do not care if the difference between the dps classes are small enough. If you look at the dps classes right now where weavers and DE are at the top. No group will say no if you bring in a holo, DD, DH, or any other dps class because a 2-4k dps difference between classes is perfectly acceptable. Removing the unique buffs means that people will no longer reserve a spot just for that class and that is perfectly fine. Sure there should be compensation buffs if banner or druid spirits become standardized or removed but it does not mean it should be in the game at this point without some sort change. Chrono right now is the biggest raid issue and we should not try to revolve around class instead of figuring out ways to bring it down to normal.

> >

> > Warriors were perfectly fine dps classes during the days of burnzerk or even last patch of condi warrior, power spellbreaker. They are required because of banners but in no way do they absolutely need it. If banners are removed then warriors will not be taken because they do about 30k personal dps. But if you buff it to 33-34k level the nobody will bat an eye when warriors apply. They will just not be absolutely required. Same as druids as they are still excellent might stackers even without spirits, just need to tune heals up a bit if buffs are removed but in no way would they stop functioning without it.

> >

> > Literally the only reason why necromancers are not brought in as dps is because they don't do enough dps, it has nothing to do without having a group aura. That is literally it. Dps is dps and I don't see the difference between doing 30k dps or 25k personal dps and 5k group dps. Warriors for example technically do 40k dps because of the banners but you can only bring one for max effectiveness. That is why every group wants one. If necros always did high enough damage on the levels of guardians, engineers, revs etc then they will be in the group and is simple as that.

> >

> > Removing unique damage buffs means that groups will be far more willing to take classes instead of worry about what sort of buffs they bring. Your entire worry is that people will just take the highest dps class is not something to worry about because we already do that, just a bit more hidden. The difference is simply that most people have a margin of acceptable dps instead of taking the absolute best one every time. WoW already went through this rollcoaster of unique class buffs, let's not continue the mistake even longer.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> You might very well be right, I'm just not sure if I have the same confidence in the balance team to balance well enough to allow for class diversity, especially with how narrow minded this community has been since quite a while on what is okay to bring, without any unique damage buffs.

>

> I'm aware Necromancers are not wanted because they simply don't do enough DPS. But that has been the case for 6 years.

> DPS Spellbreaker was nerfed the very next patch, even though it was fine.

> DH hasn't been updated in ages and has hugely fallen out of favour in Raids for many months (while somewhat kept alive by it's high burst and utility).

> Power Rev and many other things still aren't really a thing.

>

> ..with this list going on and on, if personal DPS is the only thing that matters, I just think a lot of professions and builds will get left behind by the community, in favour of just more Chrono, Weaver, Deadeye and Holo, or whatever the next flavour of the patch DPS is.

> In a perfect world and when I still had more confidence in the balance team, I would have and did absolutely agree with you about the removal of these unique buffs, and instead having good enough balance to put most DPS's and Supports on a even enough playing field to see class diversity that way.

> Giving a class a unique buff is just an easy cop out to force diversity, but at least it works.

>

> I can't be the only one who is getting tired of every group looking and feeling the same. But I guess that is mostly due to how broken and ever present Chrono is.

>

> So while I agree that class diversity through good enough balance is absolutely the better way, I don't think ArenaNet can achieve diversity without forcing it with unique buffs despite the balance.

> They have been buffing Reaper for years now, without it reaching the ~35k DPS it needs to be really welcome at all considering it's lack of utility when compared to a DH, while in other ways completely bloating it's solo potential, for what that matters.

>

> Removing those buffs and "just buffing the professions to compensate" is much easier said than done..

 

Eh I understand your concern. Although I am really more of the type who prefer them trying a long time to get it right than just stick being wrong and work with it. Otherwise I wouldn't have played mostly necro for this long. As for the DH, Revs etc you mentioned they are a thing. They are just not meta in people's mind but you'd never see people kick them out of the group other than the truly elitist. Both bench around 32k I think? Honestly I think they have been doing ok with dps classes recently. Bringing up necros, revs and thieves(a bit too far on this one) and bring down druids, eles, not chrono probably because is a bitch to do. They are mostly nerfing and buffing the right things which is why I am a bit more optimistic. Chrono changes is the one that truly I have no idea what they are going to do with. Sometimes I rather them just give everybody max boons in all instances but I know that's rather asinine. Would be interesting to see what happens though.

[Axl.8924]

I saw streamer guy who says that with some buffs that happened to scourge that it was real good in WVW.Not sure what else its good in since i don't have the expansion.

 

I talked to him about scourge and while he was doing wvw he says yeah htey were insane and some buff of some sort and now the dmg is still really good.Don't know if thats helpful, but i suppose scourge would dominate in WVW over spvp.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I saw streamer guy who says that with some buffs that happened to scourge that it was real good in WVW.Not sure what else its good in since i don't have the expansion.

>

> I talked to him about scourge and while he was doing wvw he says yeah htey were insane and some buff of some sort and now the dmg is still really good.Don't know if thats helpful, but i suppose scourge would dominate in WVW over spvp.

>

>

 

Yeah it's good in wvw. In big groups. In very small groups it's not so good, as it always will need a healer

If you are running around with 3 people, better go with another class

[Asum.4960]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > > > > > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > > > > > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

> > > > >

> > > > > The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

> > > >

> > > > Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

> > > >

> > > > The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

> > > > There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

> > > > Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

> > > > Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

> > > >

> > > > If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

> > > >

> > > > Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

> > >

> > > I don't think that is true because in general people do not care if the difference between the dps classes are small enough. If you look at the dps classes right now where weavers and DE are at the top. No group will say no if you bring in a holo, DD, DH, or any other dps class because a 2-4k dps difference between classes is perfectly acceptable. Removing the unique buffs means that people will no longer reserve a spot just for that class and that is perfectly fine. Sure there should be compensation buffs if banner or druid spirits become standardized or removed but it does not mean it should be in the game at this point without some sort change. Chrono right now is the biggest raid issue and we should not try to revolve around class instead of figuring out ways to bring it down to normal.

> > >

> > > Warriors were perfectly fine dps classes during the days of burnzerk or even last patch of condi warrior, power spellbreaker. They are required because of banners but in no way do they absolutely need it. If banners are removed then warriors will not be taken because they do about 30k personal dps. But if you buff it to 33-34k level the nobody will bat an eye when warriors apply. They will just not be absolutely required. Same as druids as they are still excellent might stackers even without spirits, just need to tune heals up a bit if buffs are removed but in no way would they stop functioning without it.

> > >

> > > Literally the only reason why necromancers are not brought in as dps is because they don't do enough dps, it has nothing to do without having a group aura. That is literally it. Dps is dps and I don't see the difference between doing 30k dps or 25k personal dps and 5k group dps. Warriors for example technically do 40k dps because of the banners but you can only bring one for max effectiveness. That is why every group wants one. If necros always did high enough damage on the levels of guardians, engineers, revs etc then they will be in the group and is simple as that.

> > >

> > > Removing unique damage buffs means that groups will be far more willing to take classes instead of worry about what sort of buffs they bring. Your entire worry is that people will just take the highest dps class is not something to worry about because we already do that, just a bit more hidden. The difference is simply that most people have a margin of acceptable dps instead of taking the absolute best one every time. WoW already went through this rollcoaster of unique class buffs, let's not continue the mistake even longer.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You might very well be right, I'm just not sure if I have the same confidence in the balance team to balance well enough to allow for class diversity, especially with how narrow minded this community has been since quite a while on what is okay to bring, without any unique damage buffs.

> >

> > I'm aware Necromancers are not wanted because they simply don't do enough DPS. But that has been the case for 6 years.

> > DPS Spellbreaker was nerfed the very next patch, even though it was fine.

> > DH hasn't been updated in ages and has hugely fallen out of favour in Raids for many months (while somewhat kept alive by it's high burst and utility).

> > Power Rev and many other things still aren't really a thing.

> >

> > ..with this list going on and on, if personal DPS is the only thing that matters, I just think a lot of professions and builds will get left behind by the community, in favour of just more Chrono, Weaver, Deadeye and Holo, or whatever the next flavour of the patch DPS is.

> > In a perfect world and when I still had more confidence in the balance team, I would have and did absolutely agree with you about the removal of these unique buffs, and instead having good enough balance to put most DPS's and Supports on a even enough playing field to see class diversity that way.

> > Giving a class a unique buff is just an easy cop out to force diversity, but at least it works.

> >

> > I can't be the only one who is getting tired of every group looking and feeling the same. But I guess that is mostly due to how broken and ever present Chrono is.

> >

> > So while I agree that class diversity through good enough balance is absolutely the better way, I don't think ArenaNet can achieve diversity without forcing it with unique buffs despite the balance.

> > They have been buffing Reaper for years now, without it reaching the ~35k DPS it needs to be really welcome at all considering it's lack of utility when compared to a DH, while in other ways completely bloating it's solo potential, for what that matters.

> >

> > Removing those buffs and "just buffing the professions to compensate" is much easier said than done..

>

> Eh I understand your concern. Although I am really more of the type who prefer them trying a long time to get it right than just stick being wrong and work with it. Otherwise I wouldn't have played mostly necro for this long. As for the DH, Revs etc you mentioned they are a thing. They are just not meta in people's mind but you'd never see people kick them out of the group other than the truly elitist. Both bench around 32k I think? Honestly I think they have been doing ok with dps classes recently. Bringing up necros, revs and thieves(a bit too far on this one) and bring down druids, eles, not chrono probably because is a kitten to do. They are mostly nerfing and buffing the right things which is why I am a bit more optimistic. Chrono changes is the one that truly I have no idea what they are going to do with. Sometimes I rather them just give everybody max boons in all instances but I know that's rather asinine. Would be interesting to see what happens though.

 

I agree especially DPS balance has improved drastically over the last few months. I even think Thief is fine, considering it's reliance on both boons and variety of conditions on the enemy, as well as lack of cleave on DE. Especially after the latest Ele buffs and it being the king of everything again (and hell, even getting a Thief Grandmaster as Minor Trait in Air).

Still, there is a lot of work ahead in bringing up all these just so viable professions.

 

When it comes to support, it's still looking absolutely bleak through, and most of it is due to the absolute dominance of Chrono, and how well Druid goes with it.

 

Coming back to the topic, I still wish for Support Scourge to compete with Druid to be played aside Chrono, by giving it some more duration on it's might, and adding some more boon support in general to the kit, with Rev/FB brought up as an alternative support duo.

I'm still not quite sure how to slot in Tempest, aside the pure healer role on high pressure stuff like Matt, but maybe that's fine. We need more of those high pressure fight's/situations in the game anyway.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > > > Because meta will always lean toward maximum damage and a free +10% raid group damage stackable with the free 5% of the ranger will make those 2 professions mandatory pick. After that you'll look for maximum efficiency in boon output and the necromancer suck at that while the druid provide more than enough. Beside, scourge will be able to output some barrier without being a dedicated support which is why he will be picked as a dps support instead of a pure support. The meta have been done like that since age now, always looking for optimisation of what you can gain and always looking for more dps, disregarding survivability.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The problem is more that there are still people that think that druid is there to heal. it's not the main reason he is taken, if it was a matter of healing output there are load of other profession way better at doing it than the druid.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And I didn't say it compete with warrior bannerslave, I said that the meta would end up with: Druid, chrono, bs and scourge mandatory. A 10% increase of damage to the group by the scourge don't make him compete with the druid, it just make the scourge another mandatory pick that reduce team diversity. This will end up with necromancer being taken only if they have the scourge metabuild and kicked if they want to play something more exotic while group will have a harder time finding all "mandatory" metabuild.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So worst case scenario at least one Necromancer is now wanted in Raids with those changes, be it as second Healer for struggling groups, or as terrible cDPS with a damage buff for meta groups.

> > > > > > > For Fractals, a 2 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS, condi/support Scourge setup could work now in addition to 3 pDPS, Minstrel Chrono, BS and 2pDPS, Chrono, Druid, BS.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Idk, even the worst case seems like a positive shake up to me, increasing class diversity in endgame content.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It also seems like you are overlooking the part where I also called for Sand Savant to basically remove most damage from Shade Skills and turning it into a proper support trait, as substitute for a Group Damage buff, as it already is a non viable pick for dps Condi Scourges anyway.

> > > > > > > The group damage buff in turn then could also come from Desert Shroud activation, replacing torment application, making the skill still worth pressing and requiring heavy Life Force generation, making it easily useable for a support Scourge that is already running Dagger, while being a heavy DPS sacrifice for a condi Scourge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The worst part is not a necro is wanted but it would be that one slot would essentially be locked for a necromancer in raids. I don't think the raiding community want this as unique buffs has been the bane of meta raiding composition since HoT. Dadnir's example of BS is essentially what might happen where warriors have to be taken because of the banner, not because of something unique that they do which support scourge currently have which is rezzing. Even if you neuter support Scourge's dps for the buff, math will be done and if the damage outweight the loss then the necro will be taken everytime. We want to bring druid down to classes like Firebrand, Rev, Scourge in Pve where it is no longer mandatory to always have 1. Not the other way around.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which I fully understand. I don't care either way, as long as supports are brought to a more even playing field.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only thing I would add is that if damage buffs are removed from Druid instead of also applied to all other heal supports, that role might flat out disappear, especially in Fractals, with how dominant Chrono is.

> > > > > There are already groups who forgo the Druid in favour of a third DPS, as that adds more party DPS than the unique damage buffs from a Druid, while the Chrono carries the entire group.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unique Damage buffs like Banners for Warriors and Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment for Druids is the only thing keeping these professions/specialisations relevant in a so purely DPS driven game.

> > > > > Warrior Mains tired of Banners have to realise that without them, they won't get to play the profession barely or at all and how much of a blessing they have been for years if you like the class.

> > > > > Professions like Necromancer are a good example of what happens when you don't have a unique from of viable party DPS increase. It's 6 years of you are not wanted in this group.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they remove group damage buffs from classes, and don't add them to other's to increase diversity, they have to make the whole game, but especially endgame, drastically more punishing to absolutely require healers and make it less about DPS, which I just don't think is where ArenaNet intends to go if the past years are any indication.

> > > > >

> > > > > Removing unique damage buffs does anything but increase class diversity, and is a sure way to get Chrono/Weaver only groups.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think that is true because in general people do not care if the difference between the dps classes are small enough. If you look at the dps classes right now where weavers and DE are at the top. No group will say no if you bring in a holo, DD, DH, or any other dps class because a 2-4k dps difference between classes is perfectly acceptable. Removing the unique buffs means that people will no longer reserve a spot just for that class and that is perfectly fine. Sure there should be compensation buffs if banner or druid spirits become standardized or removed but it does not mean it should be in the game at this point without some sort change. Chrono right now is the biggest raid issue and we should not try to revolve around class instead of figuring out ways to bring it down to normal.

> > > >

> > > > Warriors were perfectly fine dps classes during the days of burnzerk or even last patch of condi warrior, power spellbreaker. They are required because of banners but in no way do they absolutely need it. If banners are removed then warriors will not be taken because they do about 30k personal dps. But if you buff it to 33-34k level the nobody will bat an eye when warriors apply. They will just not be absolutely required. Same as druids as they are still excellent might stackers even without spirits, just need to tune heals up a bit if buffs are removed but in no way would they stop functioning without it.

> > > >

> > > > Literally the only reason why necromancers are not brought in as dps is because they don't do enough dps, it has nothing to do without having a group aura. That is literally it. Dps is dps and I don't see the difference between doing 30k dps or 25k personal dps and 5k group dps. Warriors for example technically do 40k dps because of the banners but you can only bring one for max effectiveness. That is why every group wants one. If necros always did high enough damage on the levels of guardians, engineers, revs etc then they will be in the group and is simple as that.

> > > >

> > > > Removing unique damage buffs means that groups will be far more willing to take classes instead of worry about what sort of buffs they bring. Your entire worry is that people will just take the highest dps class is not something to worry about because we already do that, just a bit more hidden. The difference is simply that most people have a margin of acceptable dps instead of taking the absolute best one every time. WoW already went through this rollcoaster of unique class buffs, let's not continue the mistake even longer.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You might very well be right, I'm just not sure if I have the same confidence in the balance team to balance well enough to allow for class diversity, especially with how narrow minded this community has been since quite a while on what is okay to bring, without any unique damage buffs.

> > >

> > > I'm aware Necromancers are not wanted because they simply don't do enough DPS. But that has been the case for 6 years.

> > > DPS Spellbreaker was nerfed the very next patch, even though it was fine.

> > > DH hasn't been updated in ages and has hugely fallen out of favour in Raids for many months (while somewhat kept alive by it's high burst and utility).

> > > Power Rev and many other things still aren't really a thing.

> > >

> > > ..with this list going on and on, if personal DPS is the only thing that matters, I just think a lot of professions and builds will get left behind by the community, in favour of just more Chrono, Weaver, Deadeye and Holo, or whatever the next flavour of the patch DPS is.

> > > In a perfect world and when I still had more confidence in the balance team, I would have and did absolutely agree with you about the removal of these unique buffs, and instead having good enough balance to put most DPS's and Supports on a even enough playing field to see class diversity that way.

> > > Giving a class a unique buff is just an easy cop out to force diversity, but at least it works.

> > >

> > > I can't be the only one who is getting tired of every group looking and feeling the same. But I guess that is mostly due to how broken and ever present Chrono is.

> > >

> > > So while I agree that class diversity through good enough balance is absolutely the better way, I don't think ArenaNet can achieve diversity without forcing it with unique buffs despite the balance.

> > > They have been buffing Reaper for years now, without it reaching the ~35k DPS it needs to be really welcome at all considering it's lack of utility when compared to a DH, while in other ways completely bloating it's solo potential, for what that matters.

> > >

> > > Removing those buffs and "just buffing the professions to compensate" is much easier said than done..

> >

> > Eh I understand your concern. Although I am really more of the type who prefer them trying a long time to get it right than just stick being wrong and work with it. Otherwise I wouldn't have played mostly necro for this long. As for the DH, Revs etc you mentioned they are a thing. They are just not meta in people's mind but you'd never see people kick them out of the group other than the truly elitist. Both bench around 32k I think? Honestly I think they have been doing ok with dps classes recently. Bringing up necros, revs and thieves(a bit too far on this one) and bring down druids, eles, not chrono probably because is a kitten to do. They are mostly nerfing and buffing the right things which is why I am a bit more optimistic. Chrono changes is the one that truly I have no idea what they are going to do with. Sometimes I rather them just give everybody max boons in all instances but I know that's rather asinine. Would be interesting to see what happens though.

>

> I agree especially DPS balance has improved drastically over the last few months. I even think Thief is fine, considering it's reliance on both boons and variety of conditions on the enemy, as well as lack of cleave on DE. Especially after the latest Ele buffs and it being the king of everything again (and hell, even getting a Thief Grandmaster as Minor Trait in Air).

> Still, there is a lot of work ahead in bringing up all these just so viable professions.

>

> When it comes to support, it's still looking absolutely bleak through, and most of it is due to the absolute dominance of Chrono, and how well Druid goes with it.

>

> Coming back to the topic, I still wish for Support Scourge to compete with Druid to be played aside Chrono, by giving it some more duration on it's might, and adding some more boon support in general to the kit, with Rev/FB brought up as an alternative support duo.

> I'm still not quite sure how to slot in Tempest, aside the pure healer role on high pressure stuff like Matt, but maybe that's fine. We need more of those high pressure fight's/situations in the game anyway.

 

I am fairly sure one of the issue with healers is that the raid in general simply do not apply enough damage pressure to dps. There are one shots and aoes but not much a constant stream of damage that a regen tick can't take care of most of the time. I feel if they can apply enough pressure via some ways to force healers to actually concentrate more on healing then the healer issue may be better. Or at least the druid dominance can be shaken without too much of a change. Honestly going from WoW where rezzing is incredibly important in raids, I was a bit surprised how support scourge is treated until I read and played a bit more. Also I would rather they increase the range on some might skills than buff the duration. Namely torch 5 and BiP, although having both be increased probably won't break anything but the current radius is way too small.

 

Still no idea how Chrono is going to work. I am more interested to hear what their opinion and idea at this point because I got nothing.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Coming back to the topic, I still wish for Support Scourge to compete with Druid to be played aside Chrono, by giving it some more duration on it's might, and adding some more boon support in general to the kit, with Rev/FB brought up as an alternative support duo.

 

Like said, druid's issue is mainly the extra %age of damage that he grant. If they are removed, druid will disapear from PvE end game, however, that doesn't mean that ranger won't be competitive there as well. SoulBeast deal competitive damage and still have access to variety of support. Chrono, on the other hand, is the most difficult thing to fix, There is barely any way to do it.

 

> I'm still not quite sure how to slot in Tempest, aside the pure healer role on high pressure stuff like Matt, but maybe that's fine. We need more of those high pressure fight's/situations in the game anyway.

 

To be honest, I think the way to fix tempest support doesn't lie in buffing tempest. The idea of making him support via auras was a good idea but other profession aren't that dependant on auras and that's the mistake. Auras, are an interesting material balance wise because most profession can have an easy access to them which can favor teamplay.

 

The way to fix tempest would thus be to make other profession dependant on having an aura to reach their maximum efficiency since this would make tempest really convenient in a group without making him mandatory.

Examples:

- Warrior _pinacle of strength_: If you change this trait to give warrior 250 power when he is under the effect of an aura, the warrior will be able to gain this bonus rather easily but in teamplay, he will always be glad to have someone that can also give him access to the effect.

- Necromancer _Soul comprehension_: If you change this trait to give a certain amount of LF to the necromancer when struck while under the effect of an aura, necromancer become suddenly easier to support while in shroud (obviously, this mean that there would be a need to introduce ways to gain auras to the core necromancer)

- Thief, lack the proper field to gain aura but have plenty of leap finishers. Making it's performance dependant on having an aura could very well tame a bit it's damage output when he roam solo while making him strong in teamplay. Something that probably wouldn't please the thief community but relieve a bit the PvP/WvW community.

- ... etc.

 

I think this should be the road taken by ANet to improve the game while giving a some room to the tempest to shine as a support.