Unholey.3264 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. Just wanted to chime in and say actually, no it isn't. Even before the animation was updated with windy lines and a pink/purple arrow trail (due to many complaints about it having no distinguishing casting animation), it did, and still does, in fact, have an animation different from regular auto attacks. More to the point, I've "lost" key moments in games recently due to not remembering/expecting the bugged OS to hit me from so far. An easy example is capping stillness on Temple and an engi who would otherwise not be able to hit me in time not only hitting me but knocking me back and down into the hole on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased (~50%), and its distanced officially doubled (600->1200) (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increased 50% (400 -> 600). Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. OCS is still optimally used in close quarters, but this bugged version presents some new opportunities. > @"Unholey.3264" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. > > Just wanted to chime in and say actually, no it isn't. Even before the animation was updated with windy lines and a pink/purple arrow trail (due to many complaints about it having no distinguishing casting animation), it did, and still does, in fact, have an animation different from regular auto attacks. The only differences are the windy lines, which aren't an obvious telegraph of what's about to happen. If the ranger turned their bow sideways, that might be one thing, but tiny white lines? Not much differentiation to the person trying to avoid them. > @"Unholey.3264" said: > More to the point, I've "lost" key moments in games recently due to not remembering/expecting the bugged OS to hit me from so far. An easy example is capping stillness on Temple and an engi who would otherwise not be able to hit me in time not only hitting me but knocking me back and down into the hole on either side. Yeah, that is unfortunate, although if he wasn't able to hit you in time, the OS shouldn't have either. Even at its bugged range, it's slower than the standard projectile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. LOL I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. Missing the forest for the trees much? Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santenal.1054 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? I think (generally speaking/one of the factors) rifle has become a much more dangerous weapon on holosmith builds because of the easier/abundant acces to stability (less opportunity cost). If you want to do a fast rifle #4 -> rifle #5 combo on a core engineer you most likely have to blow a stunbreaker (which are also more scarce since there is more pressure to include damage dealing utilities in your utility slots) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholey.3264 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > The only differences are the windy lines, which aren't an obvious telegraph of what's about to happen. If the ranger turned their bow sideways, that might be one thing, but tiny white lines? Not much differentiation to the person trying to avoid them. Again, the lines are not the only difference. Even before the lines were introduced, the animations were different. Might I suggest actually testing them yourself and noticing the difference? And even if the lines were the only difference, it's an extremely obviously telegraph of what's about to happen if you are familiar with skill animations. If you're not, that's on you, not the animation. Pin Down (warrior lb 5), for example, has a similar wind-up animation, added to balance its cc. > > @"Unholey.3264" said: > > More to the point, I've "lost" key moments in games recently due to not remembering/expecting the bugged OS to hit me from so far. An easy example is capping stillness on Temple and an engi who would otherwise not be able to hit me in time not only hitting me but knocking me back and down into the hole on either side. > > Yeah, that is unfortunate, although if he wasn't able to hit you in time, the OS shouldn't have either. Even at its bugged range, it's slower than the standard projectile. Slower than standard, yes, but you have to factor in the time he saves on not walking an extra 300ish distance and the 3/4th second cast time on hip shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"santenal.1054" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? > > I think (generally speaking/one of the factors) rifle has become a much more dangerous weapon on holosmith builds because of the easier/abundant acces to stability (less opportunity cost). If you want to do a fast rifle #4 -> rifle #5 combo on a core engineer you most likely have to blow a stunbreaker (which are also more scarce since there is more pressure to include damage dealing utilities in your utility slots) > That's my point though. Rifle is not any more dangerous than it ever was -- it's just now synergizing with a much more powerful set of skills. If we left holo out of the discussion, rifle would still be pretty lackluster. > @"Unholey.3264" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > The only differences are the windy lines, which aren't an obvious telegraph of what's about to happen. If the ranger turned their bow sideways, that might be one thing, but tiny white lines? Not much differentiation to the person trying to avoid them. > > Again, the lines are not the only difference. Even before the lines were introduced, the animations were different. Might I suggest actually testing them yourself and noticing the difference? And even if the lines were the only difference, it's an extremely obviously telegraph of what's about to happen if you are familiar with skill animations. If you're not, that's on you, not the animation. Pin Down (warrior lb 5), for example, has a similar wind-up animation, added to balance its cc. I actually did take a look prior to my last post, and yeah, the animation is still pretty much the autoattack animation with the white lines. That's extremely subtle at range. Warrior LB 5 has a way more obvious tell (that was lifted from Pin Down from GW1) > @"Unholey.3264" said: > > > @"Unholey.3264" said: > > > More to the point, I've "lost" key moments in games recently due to not remembering/expecting the bugged OS to hit me from so far. An easy example is capping stillness on Temple and an engi who would otherwise not be able to hit me in time not only hitting me but knocking me back and down into the hole on either side. > > > > Yeah, that is unfortunate, although if he wasn't able to hit you in time, the OS shouldn't have either. Even at its bugged range, it's slower than the standard projectile. > > Slower than standard, yes, but you have to factor in the time he saves on not walking an extra 300ish distance and the 3/4th second cast time on hip shot. > Perhaps, but generally I am very cautious on meditation anyway. Unless I'm 1/2-1/4 second away from capping it, I almost always stop to take out the enemy first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > LOL > > I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. > > As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. > > Missing the forest for the trees much? > > Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? Predicting a skill =/= reactively dodging it In other words, you random dodge and hope you dodge the no-animation cc. Good holos will hold onto it until they know it will land. For example, they will "corona burst + exit photon forge," then you blow a random dodge on nothing, THEN they hit you with the Overcharged Shot. Also, Point Blank Shot is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge than it is to dodge Overcharged Shot because it HAS an animation. If you can reliably dodge something that has no tell, why do you struggle to avoid something that does? My ping is avg 13. Anything below 60 and you can reliably dodge PBS if you're paying attention. You don't seem to understand. If rifle is meta, there's no reason to buff it. You can't justify buffing rifle based off of how it was performing in previous metas because it's very strong in the current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > > > > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > > > LOL > > > > I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. > > > > As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > > > > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. > > > > Missing the forest for the trees much? > > > > Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. > > > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? > > Predicting a skill =/= reactively dodging it > > In other words, you random dodge and hope you dodge the no-animation cc. Good holos will hold onto it until they know it will land. For example, they will "corona burst + exit photon forge," then you blow a random dodge on nothing, THEN they hit you with the Overcharged Shot. > > Also, Point Blank Shot is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge than it is to dodge Overcharged Shot because it HAS an animation. If you can reliably dodge something that has no tell, why do you struggle to avoid something that does? > > My ping is avg 13. Anything below 60 and you can reliably dodge PBS if you're paying attention. > > You don't seem to understand. If rifle is meta, there's no reason to buff it. You can't justify buffing rifle based off of how it was performing in previous metas because it's very strong in the current one. * No shit. I said that reactive dodge is generally less reliable in my experience. Predictive generally pays off way more. The situation you describe is generally not my experience, because then you're talking about counter-counterplay, which is exceedingly rare even in this game. You'd need to know an opponent beforehand to really make that kind of decision. * My ping is consistently 100-150. I simply don't have the fortune to be close to wherever ANet's servers are, so I have to rely on predictive dodges, not reactionary. To that end, it's near impossible for me to react consistently to PBS and I have to rely on predictive, which is sadly lacking for PBS. * Again, the animation is virtually invisible unless you're very close to the target. If this thread is talking about the bugged range of overcharged shot, then overcharged shot is much easier to dodge at a great distance because the projectile is so damn slow, and there's a very large tell at that distance. If you're talking literally melee range, then yes, PBS is easier to dodge. But this thread is not about melee range, now is it? * But it's not rifle that's strong, LOL. Take away holo for a minute, and tell me how good it is. It's not rifle being strong, it's the synergy being strong. If you run scrapper, rifle is trash. If you run core, rifle is really, really weak. Holo is where your problem with rifle lies. To me that means that rifle needs buffs. Holo would necessitate nerfs, of course, but that's a separate topic unrelated to this one. 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shadowpass.4236 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > > > > > > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. > > > > > > As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > > > > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > > > > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > > > > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. > > > > > > Missing the forest for the trees much? > > > > > > Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. > > > > > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? > > > > Predicting a skill =/= reactively dodging it > > > > In other words, you random dodge and hope you dodge the no-animation cc. Good holos will hold onto it until they know it will land. For example, they will "corona burst + exit photon forge," then you blow a random dodge on nothing, THEN they hit you with the Overcharged Shot. > > > > Also, Point Blank Shot is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge than it is to dodge Overcharged Shot because it HAS an animation. If you can reliably dodge something that has no tell, why do you struggle to avoid something that does? > > > > My ping is avg 13. Anything below 60 and you can reliably dodge PBS if you're paying attention. > > > > You don't seem to understand. If rifle is meta, there's no reason to buff it. You can't justify buffing rifle based off of how it was performing in previous metas because it's very strong in the current one. > > * No kitten. I said that reactive dodge is generally less reliable in my experience. Predictive generally pays off way more. The situation you describe is generally not my experience, because then you're talking about counter-counterplay, which is exceedingly rare even in this game. You'd need to know an opponent beforehand to really make that kind of decision. > * My ping is consistently 100-150. I simply don't have the fortune to be close to wherever ANet's servers are, so I have to rely on predictive dodges, not reactionary. To that end, it's near impossible for me to react consistently to PBS and I have to rely on predictive, which is sadly lacking for PBS. > * Again, the animation is virtually invisible unless you're very close to the target. If this thread is talking about the bugged range of overcharged shot, then overcharged shot is much easier to dodge at a great distance because the projectile is so kitten slow, and there's a very large tell at that distance. If you're talking literally melee range, then yes, PBS is easier to dodge. But this thread is not about melee range, now is it? > * But it's not rifle that's strong, LOL. Take away holo for a minute, and tell me how good it is. It's not rifle being strong, it's the synergy being strong. If you run scrapper, rifle is trash. If you run core, rifle is really, really weak. Holo is where your problem with rifle lies. To me that means that rifle needs buffs. Holo would necessitate nerfs, of course, but that's a separate topic unrelated to this one. - At the higher skill brackets, reactive dodging > predictive dodging. "Counter-counterplay," as you put it, is very common amongst high tier players as they will do things such as baiting cooldowns by skill cancelling and waiting until the end of your evade frames to hit you with the ability you were trying to avoid in the first place. And no, you don't need to know an opponent beforehand. If that was the case, you'd struggle against anyone you haven't fought before (which obviously isn't what happens). - If your ping is high, you will not be able to react properly to skills. At the same time however, you having high ping isn't a valid reason for saying its easier to dodge Overcharged Shot compared to PBS. PBS is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge compared to Overcharged Shot because it has an animation before the attack goes off. - Again, if you're actually paying attention, you WILL see the animation for PBS no matter how far away you are. It doesn't matter if you're in melee range or 1800 range away, PBS is EASY to avoid. - You still don't understand. The meta builds for holo use rifle. It doesn't matter how well rifle performs on off-meta specs or how it performed in previous seasons because right now, in the CURRENT meta, rifle holo is very strong and DOES NOT need buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > > Hilarious how some engineers are trying to justify 1500 range bugged knockback. Guess you gotta do everything in your power to keep your class at the top. What a joke. Even the Mirage mains weren't this delusional. > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzsV2P2FTiw > > > > who are the engie mains defending the skill out of curiosity? you say others are delusional so im assuming you know for a fact who the engie mains are.... unless you were being delusional too? > > Quite frankly it doesn't matter if you're an engi main or just a rando who thinks mace DH is good. You're nitpicking if you think that's the relevant part of my post. If you justify this kitten you're delusional period. > > 1. > >Best bug ever, I say just change the tool tip and call it fixed. > > > > 2. > >Why fix it? is it overpowered? when used at 1200 range it's easy enough to dodge. > > > And then the people who don't believe this is a bug > 1. > >is the tool-tip that is wrong, rifle literately can't hit for 600 only, 1200 seems the right number > 2. > >Who are you decide its intent? I mean, "Point Blank Shot" can be used at over 1500 range... for some reason. > > > Oh wait, you're one of those people justifying it lol > > >I wreckon just update the tool tip. > Ground hog day... got a lot of notifications to this thread and realised my comment about me not caring about the outcome of the skill was removed.. Im just looking at the glass half full and would rather anet deliver on Swiss, AT and alliances than waste a few weeks over this trivial skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > > > > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > > > > > > > > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. > > > > > > > > As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > > > > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. > > > > > > > > Missing the forest for the trees much? > > > > > > > > Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. > > > > > > > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? > > > > > > Predicting a skill =/= reactively dodging it > > > > > > In other words, you random dodge and hope you dodge the no-animation cc. Good holos will hold onto it until they know it will land. For example, they will "corona burst + exit photon forge," then you blow a random dodge on nothing, THEN they hit you with the Overcharged Shot. > > > > > > Also, Point Blank Shot is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge than it is to dodge Overcharged Shot because it HAS an animation. If you can reliably dodge something that has no tell, why do you struggle to avoid something that does? > > > > > > My ping is avg 13. Anything below 60 and you can reliably dodge PBS if you're paying attention. > > > > > > You don't seem to understand. If rifle is meta, there's no reason to buff it. You can't justify buffing rifle based off of how it was performing in previous metas because it's very strong in the current one. > > > > * No kitten. I said that reactive dodge is generally less reliable in my experience. Predictive generally pays off way more. The situation you describe is generally not my experience, because then you're talking about counter-counterplay, which is exceedingly rare even in this game. You'd need to know an opponent beforehand to really make that kind of decision. > > * My ping is consistently 100-150. I simply don't have the fortune to be close to wherever ANet's servers are, so I have to rely on predictive dodges, not reactionary. To that end, it's near impossible for me to react consistently to PBS and I have to rely on predictive, which is sadly lacking for PBS. > > * Again, the animation is virtually invisible unless you're very close to the target. If this thread is talking about the bugged range of overcharged shot, then overcharged shot is much easier to dodge at a great distance because the projectile is so kitten slow, and there's a very large tell at that distance. If you're talking literally melee range, then yes, PBS is easier to dodge. But this thread is not about melee range, now is it? > > * But it's not rifle that's strong, LOL. Take away holo for a minute, and tell me how good it is. It's not rifle being strong, it's the synergy being strong. If you run scrapper, rifle is trash. If you run core, rifle is really, really weak. Holo is where your problem with rifle lies. To me that means that rifle needs buffs. Holo would necessitate nerfs, of course, but that's a separate topic unrelated to this one. > > - At the higher skill brackets, reactive dodging > predictive dodging. "Counter-counterplay," as you put it, is very common amongst high tier players as they will do things such as baiting cooldowns by skill cancelling and waiting until the end of your evade frames to hit you with the ability you were trying to avoid in the first place. And no, you don't need to know an opponent beforehand. If that was the case, you'd struggle against anyone you haven't fought before (which obviously isn't what happens). > - If your ping is high, you will not be able to react properly to skills. At the same time however, you having high ping isn't a valid reason for saying its easier to dodge Overcharged Shot compared to PBS. PBS is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge compared to Overcharged Shot because it has an animation before the attack goes off. > - Again, if you're actually paying attention, you WILL see the animation for PBS no matter how far away you are. It doesn't matter if you're in melee range or 1800 range away, PBS is EASY to avoid. > - You still don't understand. The meta builds for holo use rifle. It doesn't matter how well rifle performs on off-meta specs or how it performed in previous seasons because right now, in the CURRENT meta, rifle holo is very strong and DOES NOT need buffs. * I don't actually know anything about you, so I don't know if you're talking out of your ass or if you're being serious. But from my experience, having been in platinum for the past 4/5 seasons, reactive dodging is only better if you practice on the ESL level. In all other cases, predictive dodging is better, because there are patterns in the rotations. * I can't change my ping. If you're suggesting I do... apparently you don't live somewhere where there's not a whole lot of options. * PBS is not "objectively" easier to dodge. I'm not sure why you think that in the slightest. In melee range, sure, I can believe that. The cast time gives you more time to dodge in melee range. But past melee range (>600), which is what this thread is about, you have time to see the shot and move or dodge. * At 1200 range, if you can even see the tiny white lines for 1/2 a second and know exactly what's happening and respond appropriately... I salute you for your godlike reflexes and judgment. The rest of us humans are bowing down to you. * You also apparently don't understand. Rifle is a CORE weapon, not an elite spec weapon. Your problem with the "meta" is the elite spec. Not the core class. If you want to tone down the elite spec, sure, go for it. But the rifle, BY ITSELF is weak and could stand some buffs. Used with anything that isn't "meta," and it woefully underperforms. Also, seriously, is the world ending because of this bug? It's possibly the least of the problems in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomdesire.9365 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said: > > > > Hilarious how some engineers are trying to justify 1500 range bugged knockback. Guess you gotta do everything in your power to keep your class at the top. What a joke. Even the Mirage mains weren't this delusional. > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzsV2P2FTiw > > > > > > who are the engie mains defending the skill out of curiosity? you say others are delusional so im assuming you know for a fact who the engie mains are.... unless you were being delusional too? > > > > Quite frankly it doesn't matter if you're an engi main or just a rando who thinks mace DH is good. You're nitpicking if you think that's the relevant part of my post. If you justify this kitten you're delusional period. > > > > 1. > > >Best bug ever, I say just change the tool tip and call it fixed. > > > > > > > > 2. > > >Why fix it? is it overpowered? when used at 1200 range it's easy enough to dodge. > > > > > > And then the people who don't believe this is a bug > > 1. > > >is the tool-tip that is wrong, rifle literately can't hit for 600 only, 1200 seems the right number > > 2. > > >Who are you decide its intent? I mean, "Point Blank Shot" can be used at over 1500 range... for some reason. > > > > > > Oh wait, you're one of those people justifying it lol > > > > >I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > Ground hog day... got a lot of notifications to this thread and realised my comment about me not caring about the outcome of the skill was removed.. > > Im just looking at the glass half full and would rather anet deliver on Swiss, AT and alliances than waste a few weeks over this trivial skill. From a development standpoint that is incorrect. This bug falls on the skills and balance team, as do all skill related bugs do. Swiss/AT is almost guaranteed to be mostly backend server changes with some UI work done - different devs with different specilizations. The only overlap that would occur is BenP forwarding this issue to the skills team. Fixing any skill related bug isn't going to pull any resource from the development of Swiss/AT just like adding a new recipe isn't going to hinder the creation of a new raid wing. And it is most definitely not going to take weeks to fix this bug, even if it was one of _those_ bugs developers have in their nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > > > > > > > > > > > You should be able to dodge PBS 100% of the time if you're looking for it. On the other hand, Overcharged Shot (since it's instant), cannot be reacted to. > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > I can dodge overcharged shot way more reliably than I can dodge PBS. It's not hard to predict when it's coming in the engineer's rotation, typically after a corona burst + exit photon forge. PBS? God knows when that's coming, hard to predict. > > > > > > > > > > As for reflex times, don't forget latency issues. If you factor in latency, it's mostly luck to dodge PBS unless you're near max range. I used to run an interrupt ranger in GW1, trying to interrupt 1/2 second shots, and it's very difficult even when I was younger and had more time to devote to that sort of thing. > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > Regardless, they are two completely different skills. Listing comparisons helps neither side. The fact still stands, Overcharged Shot is bugged and should not have as long of a range as it does currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not apples and oranges. Their original implementation was almost identical, take a look: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot/history > > > > > > > * https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference is that PBS has had its velocity greatly increased, and its distanced officially doubled (longer if you include arrow falloff), while OCS has the same velocity, and its distance increase 50%. Both got slight damage buffs, but were never heavy hitters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is OCS bugged? Yes, duh, we've stated the obvious. Is that a reason to not keep the change? Not necessarily. Engineer rifle needs updating, and this bug is probably one of the more innocuous ways I've seen to buff it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rifle is meta right now for a reason. It doesn't need buffs. > > > > > > > > > > Missing the forest for the trees much? > > > > > > > > > > Engineer has 3 core weapons, and the only power-based ranged weapon in engineer's lineup is rifle. It's kind of the only choice if you want to have a reasonable ranged option. > > > > > > > > > > Prior to PoF, most engineers considered rifle lackluster. With holo, it's become useful again. I wonder why that is? Has rifle gotten better, or has holo synergized with it? > > > > > > > > Predicting a skill =/= reactively dodging it > > > > > > > > In other words, you random dodge and hope you dodge the no-animation cc. Good holos will hold onto it until they know it will land. For example, they will "corona burst + exit photon forge," then you blow a random dodge on nothing, THEN they hit you with the Overcharged Shot. > > > > > > > > Also, Point Blank Shot is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge than it is to dodge Overcharged Shot because it HAS an animation. If you can reliably dodge something that has no tell, why do you struggle to avoid something that does? > > > > > > > > My ping is avg 13. Anything below 60 and you can reliably dodge PBS if you're paying attention. > > > > > > > > You don't seem to understand. If rifle is meta, there's no reason to buff it. You can't justify buffing rifle based off of how it was performing in previous metas because it's very strong in the current one. > > > > > > * No kitten. I said that reactive dodge is generally less reliable in my experience. Predictive generally pays off way more. The situation you describe is generally not my experience, because then you're talking about counter-counterplay, which is exceedingly rare even in this game. You'd need to know an opponent beforehand to really make that kind of decision. > > > * My ping is consistently 100-150. I simply don't have the fortune to be close to wherever ANet's servers are, so I have to rely on predictive dodges, not reactionary. To that end, it's near impossible for me to react consistently to PBS and I have to rely on predictive, which is sadly lacking for PBS. > > > * Again, the animation is virtually invisible unless you're very close to the target. If this thread is talking about the bugged range of overcharged shot, then overcharged shot is much easier to dodge at a great distance because the projectile is so kitten slow, and there's a very large tell at that distance. If you're talking literally melee range, then yes, PBS is easier to dodge. But this thread is not about melee range, now is it? > > > * But it's not rifle that's strong, LOL. Take away holo for a minute, and tell me how good it is. It's not rifle being strong, it's the synergy being strong. If you run scrapper, rifle is trash. If you run core, rifle is really, really weak. Holo is where your problem with rifle lies. To me that means that rifle needs buffs. Holo would necessitate nerfs, of course, but that's a separate topic unrelated to this one. > > > > - At the higher skill brackets, reactive dodging > predictive dodging. "Counter-counterplay," as you put it, is very common amongst high tier players as they will do things such as baiting cooldowns by skill cancelling and waiting until the end of your evade frames to hit you with the ability you were trying to avoid in the first place. And no, you don't need to know an opponent beforehand. If that was the case, you'd struggle against anyone you haven't fought before (which obviously isn't what happens). > > - If your ping is high, you will not be able to react properly to skills. At the same time however, you having high ping isn't a valid reason for saying its easier to dodge Overcharged Shot compared to PBS. PBS is OBJECTIVELY easier to dodge compared to Overcharged Shot because it has an animation before the attack goes off. > > - Again, if you're actually paying attention, you WILL see the animation for PBS no matter how far away you are. It doesn't matter if you're in melee range or 1800 range away, PBS is EASY to avoid. > > - You still don't understand. The meta builds for holo use rifle. It doesn't matter how well rifle performs on off-meta specs or how it performed in previous seasons because right now, in the CURRENT meta, rifle holo is very strong and DOES NOT need buffs. > > * I don't actually know anything about you, so I don't know if you're talking out of your kitten or if you're being serious. But from my experience, having been in platinum for the past 4/5 seasons, **reactive dodging is only better if you practice on the ESL level.** In all other cases, predictive dodging is better, because there are patterns in the rotations. > * I can't change my ping. If you're suggesting I do... apparently you don't live somewhere where there's not a whole lot of options. > * PBS is not "objectively" easier to dodge. I'm not sure why you think that in the slightest. In melee range, sure, I can believe that. The cast time gives you more time to dodge in melee range. But past melee range (>600), which is what this thread is about, you have time to see the shot and move or dodge. > * At 1200 range, if you can even see the tiny white lines for 1/2 a second and know exactly what's happening and respond appropriately... I salute you for your godlike reflexes and judgment. The rest of us humans are bowing down to you. > * You also apparently don't understand. Rifle is a CORE weapon, not an elite spec weapon. Your problem with the "meta" is the elite spec. Not the core class. If you want to tone down the elite spec, sure, go for it. But the rifle, BY ITSELF is weak and could stand some buffs. Used with anything that isn't "meta," and it woefully underperforms. > > Also, seriously, is the world ending because of this bug? It's possibly the least of the problems in the game. - Predictive dodging is only good against mesmers and thieves where a significant portion of their damage is instant/comes from stealth/has no tell. - But yes, I play with/against a lot of the top players in NA. That's where the majority of my experience comes from. Here's a [screenshot](https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS) of the leaderboards if it means anything. - I'm not suggesting you change your ping. But like I said, anything above 60 and you won't be able to react properly to skills. Although, I understand why you use predictive dodging, you have to understand that people with decent ping WILL be able to dodge PBS reliably if they're looking for it. No matter how hard anyone tries, the ONLY way to dodge Overcharged Shot in close range is by random dodging. - For PBS at max range, you have to look for the projectile AFTER you notice the tell. If you don't, a good ranger will just cancel the PBS cast at the very end of the animation and you would've wasted a dodge on nothing. Again, this only applies to people with sub-60 ping. - I'm going to state this again. I DO NOT CARE how rifle performs when used with off-meta specs NOR DO I CARE how it performed in previous seasons. It is irrelevant. What matters is that rifle is used CURRENTLY in the meta for holosmith so it does not need buffing. You can't buff rifle to make core engineer/scrapper stronger because it will make already insanely strong holo builds, even stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. Don't forget to add server latency + render latency + monitor latency. That's just the delay on the client beginning to show the animation. You've then got however many frames into the animation have to be rendered before it becomes clear to the user what animation is being played. Then once the user reacts and press dodge you have to wait on input latency + server latency. The ability of a player to respond to a 0.5s cast is going to be heavily dependent on several factors. 1) Distance to the server 2) The quality of the internet infrastructure in the player's area. 3) The overall system latency of the computer they are using. (this is a combination of several factors) 4) The resolution of the render and the monitor. (lower resolutions have lower pixel density which hampers a player's ability to identify animations at a distance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop with your dumb ideas right here bud. For barely visible no cast time knock for 3s give it twice range as it used to be? Lets double ranger lb range to have 4-5k range,for fun purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to Point Blank Shot? Yeah, there's no comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot flies faster, has no self-knockback, greater range, same cast time... really, it's just better. The only difference is that now overcharged shot can reach 1500 range, but it still flies pretty slowly at that distance. Unless someone is running directly at me, it's exceedingly unlikely to hit at that range. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot/history "Historically, Point Blank shot was at the same range as Overcharged Shot"), but it got buffed repeatedly to its current range. > > > > > > > > > > > > Point Blank Shot has an obvious animation that is easy to dodge. Overcharged Shot is pretty much an instant cc. You won't be able to reactively dodge the projectile in close range. > > > > > > > > > > ... wait, what? PBS' animation is the basically the same as a normal longbow shot, with some windy lines. That's it. The projectile flies much faster than overcharged shot. > > > > > > > > > > PBS used to have the same range as overcharged shot -- you're not supposed to be able to reactively dodge them in close range. That's the point. But unlike PBS, Overcharged Shot does self knockback. > > > > > > > > "Point Blank Shot has no animation except for the windy lines which are the animation." - Vagrant 2k18 > > > > > > > > That's exactly what you have to watch out for. Overcharged Shot is an instant cc from close range. Unlike PBS, it has NO animation to reactively dodge. > > > > > > If you call that an obvious animation... whatever floats your boat. It's not. If you want to reactively dodge that 1/2s casting time, go for it, but generally speaking, that'll work about as often as it does for Overcharged Shot. Both skills you need to predict, not react. > > > > You are very, VERY wrong. First off, an average human reaction time for visual stimuli is 1/4 of a second. A 1/2 second cast time is MORE than enough for a normal person to react to if they're paying attention. > > Don't forget to add server latency + render latency + monitor latency. That's just the delay on the client beginning to show the animation. You've then got however many frames into the animation have to be rendered before it becomes clear to the user what animation is being played. Then once the user reacts and press dodge you have to wait on input latency + server latency. > > > The ability of a player to respond to a 0.5s cast is going to be heavily dependent on several factors. > 1) Distance to the server > 2) The quality of the internet infrastructure in the player's area. > 3) The overall system latency of the computer they are using. (this is a combination of several factors) > 4) The resolution of the render and the monitor. (lower resolutions have lower pixel density which hampers a player's ability to identify animations at a distance) > > Okay so what you're saying is, every single skill is hard to dodge because someone, somewhere has a crappy internet and setup. Great. Doesn't matter. If you have NORMAL ping (~60) and a decent setup, PBS can be reactively dodged at close AND far range unlike Overcharged Shot. It is impossible to reactively dodge Overcharged Shot in close range however, like PBS, it can be reactively dodged at longer distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santenal.1054 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 "Overcharged Shot: The range of this skill has been increased from 600 to 1200. Fixed a bug that allowed this skill to hit enemies from farther than intended." =D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo.2163 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 now its ok, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehologist.5841 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 This makes almost all the nerfs worth it, almost. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 > @"santenal.1054" said: > "Overcharged Shot: The range of this skill has been increased from 600 to 1200. Fixed a bug that allowed this skill to hit enemies from farther than intended." > > =D > lol, it's official Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peutrifectus.4830 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 If you can't fix it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I guess it's officialy a feature now. Doesnt't really make sense but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"santenal.1054" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"santenal.1054" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"santenal.1054" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"santenal.1054" said: > > > > > > > > > > Why fix it? is it overpowered? when used at 1200 range it's easy enough to dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because it isn't working as intended. That's why. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are quite a few things not working as intended on the engineer class, might as well ask for all of it to be fixed then and not just the things that buff the class. If that is your argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is it a buff though? the enemy has more time to dodge > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is a buff. > > > > > > > > > > I just never would of thought that giving the enemy more time to dodge and counter play would be considered a buff.. > > > > > > > > You only have more time to dodge when it is used from far away , close range (0-600 range) is still the same as it used to be. > > > > > > which is exactly my point... > > > > With buff I mean that the skill can now do more than it used to. > > > > I wreckon just update the tool tip. hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossun.2046 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 :) hope everyone is happy now :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtoPScrub.5476 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 So they fix the 1500 range bug but decide fuck it lets make it 1200 range anyways....  Well, I guess you can't say that they are lazy, just completely out of touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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