Comprehensive Discussion on Fixing WvW Population and Participation!

[Gav.1425]

1) Increase WvW loot rewards in line with PvE content such as Domain of Istan. Why should I get more rewards running around mindlessly tagging enemies in Istan than I do when I am mindfully tagging enemies in WvW?

 

2) Remove weekly limit from WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets. You could make them increasingly difficult to get. but once you've completed your final Diamond Reward Chest, WvW feels even that much less rewarding.

 

3) ???

 

4) Profit!

[starlinvf.1358]

A. that would make existing fights worse, and queues a bigger mess for servers that already have them, and a new mess for servers have yet to experience it. If what you're suggesting was even remotely true (and thats its a rewards problem), the addition of Legendary and Ascended armor to the WvW and PvP reward list would had solved all the population problems a year ago when they were added

[Blocki.4931]

Tickets should definitely be somewhat limited. They could add like 5 per final diamond chest repeat though. They shouldn't be devalued, especially since many high rank players pip in the thousands every week and have nothing to spend them on

 

It's also silly to compare Istan to WvW, or to take that as a base. Your profit is: Fun, because it's not the "mindless tagging" you mentioned, and in the materials you're getting. You get a ton of crafting mats from simply playing, though it's hard to notice.

[SkyShroud.2865]

I no longer know what reward hunters do nowadays since I'm already a old player with all the gears I need. Not too sure if reward hunters will be interested in the increased loots of WvW, especially if they get scolded for bringing rangers.

[XenesisII.1540]

Seems like everyone's solution for wvw just more rewards.

 

Hey you know what, the only people this game mode is going to get players from anymore is the exclusive pve/spvp players still playing it, cause no one is buying gw2 exclusively for wvw anymore, that ship has sailed years ago. So bring on the rewards trains I guess. /shrug

 

Lastly, there's other reasons why people don't bother with wvw, it's because they don't like to pvp, they think it's too unfair, it's not balanced, combat isn't as fun, the meta is stupid, anet didn't pay enough attention in creating a competitive atmosphere through gvg or leader boards or tournaments, etc. Just think about why people, especially the dedicated wvw ones, left wvw and the game all together in the past 6 years, it wasn't the loot.

 

I'm personally barely playing the game, 1-2 hours a week at reset maybe, rewards isn't the problem for me.

 

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Gav.1425" said:

> 1) Increase WvW loot rewards in line with PvE content such as Domain of Istan. Why should I get more rewards running around mindlessly tagging enemies in Istan than I do when I am mindfully tagging enemies in WvW?

>

> 2) Remove weekly limit from WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets. You could make them increasingly difficult to get. but once you've completed your final Diamond Reward Chest, WvW feels even that much less rewarding.

>

> 3) ???

>

> 4) Profit!

 

1. i would love that. more players, more enemies, more allies. as long as they do stuff, is ok with me.

 

2. oh man, if only. i want my 2nd legendary armor.

 

3. periodic reset. this is to destack bandwagon servers. hoping for alliance. so allies stay together but not ever stack.

 

4. Ppppppppprooooofit. =)

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

I'd be ripping my hair off my head if I have to open the same amount of lootboxes as you get in pve. I quite happy with the rewards wvw brings. If you sell your loot youl'll quite quickly end up with 1k+ gold.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Gav.1425" said:

> 1) Increase WvW loot rewards in line with PvE content such as Domain of Istan. Why should I get more rewards running around mindlessly tagging enemies in Istan than I do when I am mindfully tagging enemies in WvW?

>

> 2) Remove weekly limit from WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets. You could make them increasingly difficult to get. but once you've completed your final Diamond Reward Chest, WvW feels even that much less rewarding.

>

> 3) ???

>

> 4) Profit!

 

I can only see that this would increase Fair-Weather participation, which would end up making the population issues even larger, since they still just leave when they're losing and wait for a week they win instead.

 

In my opinion, what is needed is some way to motivate players to keep fighting even when outnumbered, losing, and while getting killed. I don't see adding more "karma-train" rewards will help with that.

[Sovereign.1093]

fair weather pop are usually combed out =)

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Seems like everyone's solution for wvw just more rewards.

>

> Hey you know what, the only people this game mode is going to get players from anymore is the exclusive pve/spvp players still playing it, cause no one is buying gw2 exclusively for wvw anymore, that ship has sailed years ago. So bring on the rewards trains I guess. /shrug

>

> Lastly, there's other reasons why people don't bother with wvw, it's because they don't like to pvp, they think it's too unfair, it's not balanced, combat isn't as fun, the meta is stupid, anet didn't pay enough attention in creating a competitive atmosphere through gvg or leader boards or tournaments, etc. Just think about why people, especially the dedicated wvw ones, left wvw and the game all together in the past 6 years, it wasn't the loot.

>

> I'm personally barely playing the game, 1-2 hours a week at reset maybe, rewards isn't the problem for me.

>

 

A rewards system are usually added to override the fact that the mode isn't fun to play, and thus needs more incentive then to make the mode worth tolerating. Rewards are a psychological trap through and through when it comes to game design.

 

The istan and RIBA farms are stupidly profitable.... but they're also boring as hell. The activity itself isn't engaging, so its the stream of rewards that give it any type of satisfaction. Raids and WvW are far more engaging, but its still ranked on its rewards, because thats how ingrained in our decision making processes this thing is now. In order to break that, the rewards have to be somewhat comparable (given them even weighting), so the merits and flaws of the modes themselves can be taken into proper consideration. If by some stroke of luck you can get all 4 game modes to be Engaging, equally rewarding, and similar learning curves, they become interchangeable in terms of reward/profit motive, and thus left to a player's choice of activity for their play session.

 

But you can make the most BS fight scenario possible, and you can get anyone to throw themselves at it like Wile E Coyote against painted tunnel with the right reward to dangle in front of them. And when it was all said and done, they'd actually think it was worth the effort.

[LetoII.3782]

Drawing the loot farmers would only take away from WvW.

 

Observe their works in EotM

 

Rather poorly named thread

[Vieux P.1238]

Problem with WvW is the same problem as Guildhall's. **IT'S INSTANCES.**

Not many ppl like to break off immersion & hang in instances for to long.

Map's of WvW should of started in the same map world of Tyria. SPECIFIC ZONES dedicated to fight for & affect's the entire economy of tyria.

Giving a real reason to fight for.

But no. Just settle for splitting up population into a game mod that's instance & has no purpous at all but to zerg & go threw a boring reward track.

[Grim West.3194]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> I no longer know what reward hunters do nowadays since I'm already a old player with all the gears I need. Not too sure if reward hunters will be interested in the increased loots of WvW, especially if they get scolded for bringing rangers.

 

Well I'm an old player but gave up on WvW years ago because the game mode is not what I payed for. Only reason I'm playing again now is because of the legendary armor. Doing it with a ranger, and I'm a bad ranger - hah. Getting better I suppose but I still don't really care about WvW in it's current form.

 

So rewards definitely work to get people into WvW. Not sure what they could add to the rewards though, the Legendary armor is already a pretty good carrot.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I see lots of this won't work because. The problem is, it's already not working. You want fights, you need people and most people probably want better rewards, otherwise the pops and participation would be higher. Give and take people, give and take!

[Tehologist.5841]

The problem is people come to WvW to fight other players instead of going to PvP. WvW is siege combat and attacking/defending keeps. It is supposed to be long term strategy and planning for points, not blobbing in open fields to get bags of useless loot. The rewards if anything, encourage people to idle in the maps and do bare minimal for participation when they don't even like the mode.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> The problem is people come to WvW to fight other players instead of going to PvP. WvW is siege combat and attacking/defending keeps. It is supposed to be long term strategy and planning for points, not blobbing in open fields to get bags of useless loot. The rewards if anything, encourage people to idle in the maps and do bare minimal for participation when they don't even like the mode.

 

The problem with wvw is that it leans way too heavily on the siege and keep aspect which is only fun for a small number of people who don't know how to fight other players while the majority of people who seek out rvr game modes just want to fight other players. So unsurprisingly wvw has kept a large number of the siege enthusiasts and lost most of the fighting enthusiasts to other games which just focus on fighting.

[Tehologist.5841]

It is a sandbox mode for large scale warfare of course it leans heavily on siege and not player killing. To take a keep or capture anything you literally just kill an NPC. It is turning into an easy reward, we won't do anything unless there is a commander or a mode for people who just want to grief players for fun. There are also the people that log in off hours for easy caps so their servers can advance next week. When played as intended it is a pretty fun mode, you should try it.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> It is a sandbox mode for large scale warfare of course it leans heavily on siege and not player killing. To take a keep or capture anything you literally just kill an NPC. It is turning into an easy reward, we won't do anything unless there is a commander or a mode for people who just want to grief players for fun. There are also the people that log in off hours for easy caps so their servers can advance next week. When played as intended it is a pretty fun mode, you should try it.

 

Well thats the problem. It's not focused enough on fighting and so it loses everyone who actually plays rvr for fights to other games that are designed to be focused on fighting.

 

People who want to fire trebs at walls all day are in the vast minority of people who play these sorts of rvr type game modes.

 

The focus should not be on adding more silly fluff to entice pve rabbits it should be on attracting the sort of players who like fighting other players.

[Tehologist.5841]

WvW could never be balanced for fair fights, the gear is way too overtuned for that, outnumbered fights are a joke. it definitely is not a competitive PvP mode, it is a large scale combat mode which does at times involve large groups of people smashing into each other to get an advantage. It is fun when you have guilds with parties 5 -10 trying to outplay each other. More often than I like it is just pugs waiting for someone to tag so they can get easy bags by hitting 1 repeatedly.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> it is a large scale combat mode which does at times involve large groups of people smashing into each other to get an advantage.

 

Yeah and that's all the fight oriented rvr type of players want. That's all they've ever had to focus on to keep that demographic.

 

I consider myself to be among that crowd and I don't care about rewards all that much. I was playing this game for 10 hrs a day back when there were no reward tracks no skirmish chests no money in it at all because the fights were fun and I enjoyed the experience.

 

But now pretty much all the fight guilds are gone and it's because over the years they ignored how popular GvG was and instead they leaned more and more into making this game mode this slow paced siege warfare focused thing that very few people actually want to spend time on. And now we have to talk about getting PvErs into the game mode to fill that gap left by fight guilds.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Rewards? You could do that. My vague suggestion is: Make things fun again.

 

D:

[Tehologist.5841]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> > it is a large scale combat mode which does at times involve large groups of people smashing into each other to get an advantage.

 

> But now pretty much all the fight guilds are gone and it's because over the years they ignored how popular GvG was and instead they leaned more and more into making this game mode this slow paced siege warfare focused thing that very few people actually want to spend time on. And now we have to talk about getting PvErs into the game mode to fill that gap left by fight guilds.

 

I play wvw and pvp mostly right now. I played guild wars 1 and loved jade quarry. I wasn't in a guild that participated in GVG, I agree that is a mode people crave. They did finally give us a nice big arena for people that just want large battles. I feel the majority of people in WvW are PVE players looking to get their dailies done. I see people idling constantly at starting waypoint. I for one would just like to be in an active enough guild where we could PPT a bit and bust a few blobs while doing it.

 

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Problem with WvW is the same problem as Guildhall's. **IT'S INSTANCES.**

> Not many ppl like to break off immersion & hang in instances for to long.

> Map's of WvW should of started in the same map world of Tyria. SPECIFIC ZONES dedicated to fight for & affect's the entire economy of tyria.

> Giving a real reason to fight for.

> But no. Just settle for splitting up population into a game mod that's instance & has no purpous at all but to zerg & go threw a boring reward track.

 

That could never work given the economy is global, and the WvW servers are Realm based. Who gets the benefit, and how do you stop match manipulation? Match stacking was, is, and always will be a huge problem unless all 3 sides in a match up are consistently close in the running. (which is almost never outside of T1, and only IF theres a 24 hour map queue).

 

The fundamental problem is the players have to accept that either people will lose (which players will never accept when rewards are on the line), or the fights don't matter. You also can't design a system that snowballs in favor of the dominant faction, because why bother if theres no chance at real competition. Not enough players, especially among the "Likes PvP" crowd, understand this concept; nor do they believe its important to a better population, when so many are caught up in wanting losers to lord over.

 

If I were to ask "what is sport?", I wonder how diverse the answers would be.

[shiri.4257]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> WvW could never be balanced for fair fights, the gear is way too overtuned for that, outnumbered fights are a joke. it definitely is not a competitive PvP mode, it is a large scale combat mode which does at times involve large groups of people smashing into each other to get an advantage. It is fun when you have guilds with parties 5 -10 trying to outplay each other. More often than I like it is just pugs waiting for someone to tag so they can get easy bags by hitting 1 repeatedly.

 

WvW is a competitive game mode, just not setup for even fights. There just aren't that many leaders in the world that will grind out in an uneven platform over and over. GvG players used to be the apex players, then their reputation and attitude slowly diminished overtime as WvW dodgers. GvG guilds were filled with incompetent leaders who couldn't even manage 5 people much less 50, so they dodged WvW and Reeeeeee to anet.

[Tehologist.5841]

There are two types of players, those that play wvw because they enjoy it and those that play to get easy rewards. The second group do not make wvw more fun or better.