ROMANG.1903 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > If Anet guts chrono - especially boons - raids will be mastered by extremely fewer people than they are now and that's not what the more dedicated raid community should wish since it excludes a lot of additional players resulting in raids being wastelands very soon. You want raids to die? Sure go ahead with this idea but the complaints of raid content droughts are already existent. It wouldn't get better. > The more reasonable approach would be to bring other supports in line with chrono and balance the powercreep via dps output from dps builds. The more you buff classes to fit Raid difficulty, the more others modes like fractals, open world and even WvW will become overly easy and in the end, uninteresting. Sorry, but raids need to be nerfed alongside chrono, if their difficulty really becomes a problem. If we're gonna make all the content requiring to be under perma quickness anyway, might as well remove that boon entirely and actually reduce everyone's cast times. No one class should be unreplaceable, and Chrono just brings too mutch. As an earlyer comment stated, splitting different boons between different supports might be the solution, in return for Chrono gaining back a little bit of something else. But not utility, that too Chrono has too mutch of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > If Anet guts chrono - especially boons - raids will be mastered by extremely fewer people than they are now and that's not what the more dedicated raid community should wish since it excludes a lot of additional players resulting in raids being wastelands very soon. You want raids to die? Sure go ahead with this idea but the complaints of raid content droughts are already existent. It wouldn't get better. > > The more reasonable approach would be to bring other supports in line with chrono and balance the powercreep via dps output from dps builds. > > The more you buff classes to fit Raid difficulty, the more others modes like fractals, open world and even WvW will become overly easy and in the end, uninteresting. Sorry, but raids need to be nerfed alongside chrono, if their difficulty really becomes a problem. If we're gonna make all the content requiring to be under perma quickness anyway, might as well remove that boon entirely and actually reduce everyone's cast times. No one class should be unreplaceable, and Chrono just brings too mutch. > As an earlyer comment stated, splitting different boons between different supports might be the solution, in return for Chrono gaining back a little bit of something else. But not utility, that too Chrono has too mutch of... You misunderstand what you are asking for. As already mentioned, less requirements on boon support slots is a benefit, not detriment for Pve. That type of difficulty has nothing or less to do with how difficult content is but rather with how many "must have" classes are required. The difficulty increase comes from now having to find enough players willing to play these required classes which already is a bottleneck. Actual difficulty requirement based on Player skill has been declining for multiple patches which can both be seen with the higher performance on the dps Golem (and Benchmarks of fights) as well as reduced difficulty of rotation and reduced amount of required Support slots in raids (which original were 2 chrono, 2druids and 2 bannerslaves) for more dps. You have it completely backwards especially when bringing in spvp and wvw which are unphased by the reason why chrono is so mandatory in pve at the moment. Not to mention the fact that skill splits between game modes are a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > If we're gonna make all the content requiring to be under perma quickness anyway, might as well remove that boon entirely and actually reduce everyone's cast times. This is a silly argument. All content requires damage to be done, should we just remove boss health bars? Do you think quickness is passively pulsed? No, it requires your chrono to know what they are doing, the same way dps requires your dps players to know what they are doing. > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > No one class should be unreplaceable, and Chrono just brings too mutch. good thing chrono isn't 'unreplaceable' https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9cc69k/sc_4man_deimos/ I don't believe chrono brings too much, what chrono does is a reasonable amount of boon support for being a 9k dps class. The problem is, all the other boon supports (not healers) like firebrand, renegade, warrior (might+banners), scourge (barrier) hit close to 25k, and as a result, chrono gives a lot more boons. If you want chrono to give the same boons as a firebrand, you need to almost triple its dps for them to be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICENIKESHOE.7128 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 hmm isn't the simplest solution would be to have firebrand mantra of potence target to 10 men in PvE? That way it is possible to run 1 firebrand tank with 2 renegades boon/heal, thus giving incentive over 2 chronos with 1-2 druids, especially given how frequent firebrand can give aegis and how much dps it can pump out more. It also solves the annoying range bug with firebrand which I'm surprised haven't been fixed yet. Also it affects no one in 5 men fractal and barely affect easy content in open world. Since number of target is a number adjusting feature, they can increase number of target in PvE only without contradicting their split philosophy in PvP/WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Well, ok, then let's imagine that Chrono keeps both Alacrity and Quickness, fine. But what about other stuff like effective controlling and huge CC? What bugs me the most about Chrono is that Chrono is often responsible for as many mechanics as possible if there aren't mechanics that prevent Chrono from doing so. We already have a very crippled action combat/tab targetting combat system that doesn't really allow for sophisticated gameplay and Chrono even worsens that situation. GW2's PvE really, really, really lacks actual teamplay in which people have to interact with each other and in which the interaction/teamplay isn't just limited to stuff like "toughness?", "1st Moa, 2nd Moa" or "spirits?". The only real argument against more balance in that regard is that it would make raiding probably even more niche than it already is. Before Chrono, it was power banner berserker that was responsible for cc. And later, at some point, it was druid everyone expected to do so. Besides, from what i saw, the groups that expect the chrono to carry them with Moa through that part of the mechanic and do not expect to need to cc on their own usually fail those mechanics at some point. Moa isn't as godly as you might think, especially since you need good coordination to take use of it, due to its long cooldowns (when, for example, wildblow/headbutt combo, while a bit weaker, can be used on every breakbar without any thought put into it). Besides, let's be honest here. In a such dps-focused mode as raids, dps players will always try to outsource everything they could (and which might negatively impact their dps rotations) to non-dps slots. It will always be support, heal and/or banner slave that will be responsible for all of those. Unless you will force it somehow, in whch case you're right, it will complicate things and make raids more niche than they already are. Which may impact their release schedule. > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > The more you buff classes to fit Raid difficulty, the more others modes like fractals, open world and even WvW will become overly easy and in the end, uninteresting. They won't. Unlike dps, you cannot stack support, because all boons have a cap. Having 1-2 alternatives for chrono in the support role would not impact difficulty, because you would always be taking only one of those (or two - one per subsquad - in raids). Basically, as far as difficulty goes, literally nothing would change. You'd still have 2 support roles, BS, 1-2 healers and rest filled with dps. You'd still have the same amount of boons. So, where exactly would that decrease in difficulty come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > hmm isn't the simplest solution would be to have firebrand mantra of potence target to 10 men in PvE? > > That way it is possible to run 1 firebrand tank with 2 renegades boon/heal, thus giving incentive over 2 chronos with 1-2 druids, especially given how frequent firebrand can give aegis and how much dps it can pump out more. It also solves the annoying range bug with firebrand which I'm surprised haven't been fixed yet. Also it affects no one in 5 men fractal and barely affect easy content in open world. Since number of target is a number adjusting feature, they can increase number of target in PvE only without contradicting their split philosophy in PvP/WvW. Tjey could change the mantra trait of fb to have it effect 10 people. Also they could change facet of chaos pulse alac (let orders from above give prot), while letting tablet hit 10, or have a trait that lets it effect 10 people. I think this would make fb+herald an alternative to the 2 chronos, while swapping druid to power sb for spirits and spotter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantaria.8726 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > hmm isn't the simplest solution would be to have firebrand mantra of potence target to 10 men in PvE? > > > > That way it is possible to run 1 firebrand tank with 2 renegades boon/heal, thus giving incentive over 2 chronos with 1-2 druids, especially given how frequent firebrand can give aegis and how much dps it can pump out more. It also solves the annoying range bug with firebrand which I'm surprised haven't been fixed yet. Also it affects no one in 5 men fractal and barely affect easy content in open world. Since number of target is a number adjusting feature, they can increase number of target in PvE only without contradicting their split philosophy in PvP/WvW. > > Tjey could change the mantra trait of fb to have it effect 10 people. Also they could change facet of chaos pulse alac (let orders from above give prot), while letting tablet hit 10, or have a trait that lets it effect 10 people. I think this would make fb+herald an alternative to the 2 chronos, while swapping druid to power sb for spirits and spotter. Would be a fair change i think. this comp may bring more dps then with 2 chronos, but since fb and rene dont bring much cc into play others have to cover that, being it dps players or the two themself, meaning group dps would lower again and should be around the same as with a 2 chronos comp. Makes them more viable with this, though i would suggest making the 5to10 men pve only and buff the range of fb mantras a little ^^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyan.1593 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Chrono is the problem, chrono is also the reason why druid is needed, because braindeadly standing in front of the boss and taking tons of dmg when you actually should be dodging makes the group ask for heal. But I admit, I like playing like that, it's faster and speed is always appreciated because I'm farming constantly stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"Clyan.1593" said: > Chrono is the problem, chrono is also the reason why druid is needed, What? >because braindeadly standing in front of the boss and taking tons of dmg Except VG every boss hits like a wet noodle with his basic attacks. >when you actually should be dodging makes the group ask for heal. Dodging is a DPS loss and you try to avoid it as much as possible. (Aegis share on Gorseval for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasoki.5180 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. I never used "its OP because i sad so" argument or something like that. I said that some boons are more consequential than others, and that chronomancer has essentially monopoly over them. I thought it was understood as axiom in this discussion that quickness and alacrity dramatically increase output of the group. If I was mistaken, ill try to look for more tangible proof. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > Edit: Your Firebrand video is a condi dps firebrand with viper gear. His perma quickness comes from preset alacrity, which is NOT a FB boon. The video does absolutely nothing for the argument how support firebrand is actually dps hybrid. If you want to prove that point present a dps video of FB in actual support gear, without non-guardian boons > > Considering permanent alacrity is a given in a raid setting by simple fact that it's required: the point is moot or near insignificant. The fact that Firebrand can provide permanent quickness WITHOUT boon duration alone puts it ahead of chrono. Chrono can not do so without outside boon duration. Imagine if chrono lost alacrity, its quickness generation would fall behind firebrand. > > Stop looking at single classes while balancing for a 5 or 10 man group setup. Point is that this build isn't used precisely because of group setting. At least to my knowledge. It is DPS loss compared to other more meta DPS builds. And guardian who is playing healer/support/tank/whatever is definitely not playing like this and not running the same gear. To my knowledge, what this video represents does not or rarely happens in endgame pve. This looks to me like one of those hypothetically good "hybrid" builds that falls flat in higher endgame. That's the point of my argument. In raid setting it makes no sense because condi guardian is not in charge of quickness and guardian that is isn't running this gear because he isnt playing in DPS slot of party composition . But to be fair, this build could be useful in t2 or lower t3 imo. I admit thoguh it was redundant of me to mention alacrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > @"yann.1946" said: > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > > But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. > > Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > This argument might fly if boons where litary the only thing the class would give. but every class also gives dps and utility which can't be measured in strict numbers alone. You're trying to argue because where already at the top what a boongiver can do and as such their can almost be no powercreep wile also saying he's not overpowered? (Btw permenant uptime on some boons is just broken (resisance for example) so their is still room for powercreep) > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? > > See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. > > Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. > > Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. > > Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. the organisational aspect should not be an argument for bad balance. Would i like their to be alternatives? Yes ofcourse. Does that mean chrono is not OP? no not at all. and yes support can be powercrepped even if he is already giving all boons 100% because like i said earlier their is more support then only boons. I'm only arguing against you're argument btw because it boils down to. no chrono is not OP because their is nothing as broken to compare it to. And do we want to balance if it makes organisation harder? Which to me are just bad arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazut.4296 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 I'm playing as support scourge and create my own groups. It works pretty well, but it takes longer to find people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > > > > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > > > > But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. > > > > Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > > > > This argument might fly if boons where litary the only thing the class would give. but every class also gives dps and utility which can't be measured in strict numbers alone. > > You're trying to argue because where already at the top what a boongiver can do and as such their can almost be no powercreep wile also saying he's not overpowered? > > (Btw permenant uptime on some boons is just broken (resisance for example) so their is still room for powercreep) > That you can debate, but stop mixing everything together. You want to argue that permanent boon uptime is broken? Fine. Then do that. I would disagree since boons are either required, or not. There is no middle ground. Thus they are either permanent up or not. In favor of an easier meta group composition I am favoring the approach to have an easier time to have all boons up. Having more classes do so is no power creep. You are arguing to make the meta more difficult, which is fine since that stance can be taken, but don't lump that in with your chrono is overpowered bs. As was pointed out, the reason why firebrand and renegade should not be viewed as full supports (and the same reason why they are more popular than chrono in wvw) is their over double damage output. There needs to be more pure supports WITH the drawback of having very low damage. Then once we have that comparison, let's go from there. > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > > > > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? > > > > See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. > > > > Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. > > > > Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. > > > > Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. > > the organisational aspect should not be an argument for bad balance. > > Would i like their to be alternatives? Yes ofcourse. > > Does that mean chrono is not OP? no not at all. > > and yes support can be powercrepped even if he is already giving all boons 100% because like i said earlier their is more support then only boons. > > I'm only arguing against you're argument btw because it boils down to. no chrono is not OP because their is nothing as broken to compare it to. And do we want to balance if it makes organisation harder? Which to me are just bad arguments. My argument is: chrono is very strong, but there is nothing to compare it to as benchmark. It's similar to warrior and banners, there is nothing like them yet warriors would have raid spots even if their damage was slashed by 20%. That too is not overpowered. People incorrectly assume boon givers are all the same. They are not. I have already explained why I would favor to have more classes be able to do what chrono does, instead of slashing chronos abilities. The group meta is dictated by how many slots are mandatory non dps. Reverting back to 5 or 6 slots being mandatory to non damage givers would be a step back and more restrictive. I'm not sure how long you have been raiding, or if at all. We currently have the best and most free meta ever with 6 slots being open to all classes for damage. Going back to an earlier stage would be just so many steps back. I have already stated that making boons 10 man wide would also remove one of the chrono mandatory slots which again would be in favor of making grouping easier for raids. Open your mind to possibilities instead of just harping on 1 aspect blindly because nerfing for some people is always the only way to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Boons are powerful but some more then others. The most important ones are Fury, 25 might, quickness and alacrity. Aegis is obviously useful but most of the time only to block an atack and both firebrand and chrono have acces to them Protection is also strong but it is providied by druid anyway Regeneration is usless unless you have healing power (+ usualy your healer overwrite tanks anyway) Resistance is nice on some encounters but it is very hard to provide 100 uptime on chrono (or provide it when it is needed) so not that reliable Since dps players shouldnt get hit that often retaliation is not bad but not something OP Stability is great but most atacks that require stability can be blocked by Aegis. Swiftness is useful but doesnt bring basicaly any dps incresse Vigor is great, nothing gamebreaking but it makes dodging easier The biggest reason why chaos beacame a thing were traits +x percent damage per boon. Chaos have 10k dps, condition druid 15k, quickness firebrand 27k and alacrity renegade 26k if i remember correctly. I know that one static in my guild was running chrono, druid, quickness firebrands, alacrity renegade on some bosses and they had few K better dps then running standart setup. (we are talking about 170k group dps squad). On those bosses chrono used Timewarp which counteracted all quickness on FB subsquad that comed from mantra fails. The main 2 reasons why we dont see anything else then chrono are a) spirits b) buged FB mantras If there were no spirits in game you could use healer that can provide alacrity so you could use quickness both that doesnt provide alacrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > > > > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > > > > > > But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. > > > > > > Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > > > > > > > This argument might fly if boons where litary the only thing the class would give. but every class also gives dps and utility which can't be measured in strict numbers alone. > > > > You're trying to argue because where already at the top what a boongiver can do and as such their can almost be no powercreep wile also saying he's not overpowered? > > > > (Btw permenant uptime on some boons is just broken (resisance for example) so their is still room for powercreep) > > > > That you can debate, but stop mixing everything together. > > You want to argue that permanent boon uptime is broken? Fine. Then do that. I would disagree since boons are either required, or not. There is no middle ground. Thus they are either permanent up or not. In favor of an easier meta group composition I am favoring the approach to have an easier time to have all boons up. Having more classes do so is no power creep. You are arguing to make the meta more difficult, which is fine since that stance can be taken, but don't lump that in with your chrono is overpowered bs. > > As was pointed out, the reason why firebrand and renegade should not be viewed as full supports (and the same reason why they are more popular than chrono in wvw) is their over double damage output. There needs to be more pure supports WITH the drawback of having very low damage. Then once we have that comparison, let's go from there. > Boons don't have to work this linear (and for some boons they actually don't aegis,stab and resistance for example) the only reason boons are mandatory s because they can be given permenatly. Their is no choice anymore what you would like to take because you take everything. I'm arguing it probably a much healtier balance if people have to go ah we want protection uptime let's take a Hammer guard for example. or the support has to be smart and give prot wen it's most desirable (buttons at Dhuum for example) Because having all boons available just makes it so people don't care. (The same reason i'm quite happy the top dps class had no cleave when de became so strong) people actually have to think a little more about what they want. > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > > > > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > > > > > > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? > > > > > > See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. > > > > > > Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. > > > > > > Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. > > > > > > Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. > > > > the organisational aspect should not be an argument for bad balance. > > > > Would i like their to be alternatives? Yes ofcourse. > > > > Does that mean chrono is not OP? no not at all. > > > > and yes support can be powercrepped even if he is already giving all boons 100% because like i said earlier their is more support then only boons. > > > > I'm only arguing against you're argument btw because it boils down to. no chrono is not OP because their is nothing as broken to compare it to. And do we want to balance if it makes organisation harder? Which to me are just bad arguments. > > My argument is: chrono is very strong, but there is nothing to compare it to as benchmark. It's similar to warrior and banners, there is nothing like them yet warriors would have raid spots even if their damage was slashed by 20%. That too is not overpowered. > I would argue it is overpowered. their is indeed nothing that can replace a warrior which honestly is also a problem. It would be better if we had a choice. But that doens't mean the class can not OP because their is no comparrison. (You could make banners for example so that they have a much shorter uptime such that they are good in bursty fights but bad in drawn out fights.) > People incorrectly assume boon givers are all the same. They are not. I have already explained why I would favor to have more classes be able to do what chrono does, instead of slashing chronos abilities. The group meta is dictated by how many slots are mandatory non dps. Reverting back to 5 or 6 slots being mandatory to non damage givers would be a step back and more restrictive. > > I'm not sure how long you have been raiding, or if at all. We currently have the best and most free meta ever with 6 slots being open to all classes for damage. Going back to an earlier stage would be just so many steps back. > I have been raiding since the release of W3, not sure if thats relevant for the discussion tho. :p > I have already stated that making boons 10 man wide would also remove one of the chrono mandatory slots which again would be in favor of making grouping easier for raids. Open your mind to possibilities instead of just harping on 1 aspect blindly because nerfing for some people is always the only way to balance. We have the most free meta that is true and i agree that buffing boons to 10 people would lose a chrono spot. But that would be powercreep (it would open a dps spot). All i am saying is that, We can argue wether chrono is overpowered or not, ease of groupfinding schouldn't be an argument to let an overpowered class exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > > > > > > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > > > > > > > > But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. > > > > > > > > Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > > > > > > > > > > This argument might fly if boons where litary the only thing the class would give. but every class also gives dps and utility which can't be measured in strict numbers alone. > > > > > > You're trying to argue because where already at the top what a boongiver can do and as such their can almost be no powercreep wile also saying he's not overpowered? > > > > > > (Btw permenant uptime on some boons is just broken (resisance for example) so their is still room for powercreep) > > > > > > > That you can debate, but stop mixing everything together. > > > > You want to argue that permanent boon uptime is broken? Fine. Then do that. I would disagree since boons are either required, or not. There is no middle ground. Thus they are either permanent up or not. In favor of an easier meta group composition I am favoring the approach to have an easier time to have all boons up. Having more classes do so is no power creep. You are arguing to make the meta more difficult, which is fine since that stance can be taken, but don't lump that in with your chrono is overpowered bs. > > > > As was pointed out, the reason why firebrand and renegade should not be viewed as full supports (and the same reason why they are more popular than chrono in wvw) is their over double damage output. There needs to be more pure supports WITH the drawback of having very low damage. Then once we have that comparison, let's go from there. > > > > Boons don't have to work this linear (and for some boons they actually don't aegis,stab and resistance for example) the only reason boons are mandatory s because they can be given permenatly. Their is no choice anymore what you would like to take because you take everything. > > I'm arguing it probably a much healtier balance if people have to go ah we want protection uptime let's take a Hammer guard for example. or the support has to be smart and give prot wen it's most desirable (buttons at Dhuum for example) > > Because having all boons available just makes it so people don't care. > > (The same reason i'm quite happy the top dps class had no cleave when de became so strong) people actually have to think a little more about what they want. > That's not how boons will work or do work now. Boons at the moment are only required IF they provide an increase in damage. That's the only reason why boons aside from fury, might, quickness and alacrity are needed. Suffice to say, if there was not "damage per boon" traits the need for any of the support boons would drop to 0. As far as damage boons, they are either required because sacrificing a raid slot increases overall raid damage or not required thus the slot goes to a damage dealer. Unless there are encounter specific mechanics which require a specific boon (see Deimos) and immediately the meta for those fights becomes more restrictive. You will NEVER achieve a more fluent boon mechanic in the current state of the game. It's all about maximizing damage and always has been. > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > > > > > > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? > > > > > > > > See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. > > > > > > > > Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. > > > > > > > > Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. > > > > > > > > Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. > > > > > > the organisational aspect should not be an argument for bad balance. > > > > > > Would i like their to be alternatives? Yes ofcourse. > > > > > > Does that mean chrono is not OP? no not at all. > > > > > > and yes support can be powercrepped even if he is already giving all boons 100% because like i said earlier their is more support then only boons. > > > > > > I'm only arguing against you're argument btw because it boils down to. no chrono is not OP because their is nothing as broken to compare it to. And do we want to balance if it makes organisation harder? Which to me are just bad arguments. > > > > My argument is: chrono is very strong, but there is nothing to compare it to as benchmark. It's similar to warrior and banners, there is nothing like them yet warriors would have raid spots even if their damage was slashed by 20%. That too is not overpowered. > > > > I would argue it is overpowered. their is indeed nothing that can replace a warrior which honestly is also a problem. It would be better if we had a choice. But that doens't mean the class can not OP because their is no comparrison. (You could make banners for example so that they have a much shorter uptime such that they are good in bursty fights but bad in drawn out fights.) Yes you could make a lot of changes and if the resulting change is beneficial to the raids damage output, the class gets a spot. So if you'd be in favor of having more alternatives to warriors (which since banners are now 10 man wide were droped from 2 to 1 mandatory spot), why can this same approach not work for chrono? Oh a class can absolutely be overpowered without comparison. In that case though you would have to show how it's overpowered by not comparing it to other classes. It certainly does not help when the class is not overpowered in other game modes (and not even very popular at all) and the only reliable argument is: it's required to get taken along thus it must be overpowered. That alone is no strong argument imo. > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > People incorrectly assume boon givers are all the same. They are not. I have already explained why I would favor to have more classes be able to do what chrono does, instead of slashing chronos abilities. The group meta is dictated by how many slots are mandatory non dps. Reverting back to 5 or 6 slots being mandatory to non damage givers would be a step back and more restrictive. > > > > I'm not sure how long you have been raiding, or if at all. We currently have the best and most free meta ever with 6 slots being open to all classes for damage. Going back to an earlier stage would be just so many steps back. > > > I have been raiding since the release of W3, not sure if thats relevant for the discussion tho. :p > It is in context that it is beneficial to actually have raided under a more restrictive meta. Something people who are used to only 4 mandatory spots and 6 damage dealers might not understand or have experienced. No I was not going down the "omg you are a n00b" road even if that might have seemed that way. :p > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > I have already stated that making boons 10 man wide would also remove one of the chrono mandatory slots which again would be in favor of making grouping easier for raids. Open your mind to possibilities instead of just harping on 1 aspect blindly because nerfing for some people is always the only way to balance. > > We have the most free meta that is true and i agree that buffing boons to 10 people would lose a chrono spot. But that would be powercreep (it would open a dps spot). All i am saying is that, We can argue wether chrono is overpowered or not, ease of groupfinding schouldn't be an argument to let an overpowered class exist. > Yes, that's the downside to the 10-man boon change. It would come with powercreep. That's why I'd much prefer having a second support and stick to the 4 man support meta currently. (plus the skill splits for wvw are also extra work). Plus 10-man boons does nothing for fractals. Sure, but you have to consider the content you want to use the class for. Chrono is not overpowered in wvw or spvp, on the contrary, firebrand especially is way more popular there for exactly the reasons why it's not popular in raids. The reason I bring up the group composition is exactly because the actual content where chronos unique abilities are so strong is only raids and fractals. Making changes to a such integral class would have drastic effects on the difficulty of this content. Considering the longest thread on this forum is about raids needing an easy mode, I'd prefer to take this into consideration before we suddenly face a 3 month cycle after a chrono nerf in which the majority of casual raiders are faced with even more obstacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The duration limit is irrelevant tho. why would you use anything else > > > > > > > > > > But it's not. The simple fact that you can not overbuff a boon Support is already a significant difference versus a healer or damage dealer. Thus your example was off. > > > > > > > > > > Since permanent boon are already possible in pve, and they are of less er consequence in spvp or wvw (coming from a very low dps build) the possible power creep is minimal at best and near non existant in pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This argument might fly if boons where litary the only thing the class would give. but every class also gives dps and utility which can't be measured in strict numbers alone. > > > > > > > > You're trying to argue because where already at the top what a boongiver can do and as such their can almost be no powercreep wile also saying he's not overpowered? > > > > > > > > (Btw permenant uptime on some boons is just broken (resisance for example) so their is still room for powercreep) > > > > > > > > > > That you can debate, but stop mixing everything together. > > > > > > You want to argue that permanent boon uptime is broken? Fine. Then do that. I would disagree since boons are either required, or not. There is no middle ground. Thus they are either permanent up or not. In favor of an easier meta group composition I am favoring the approach to have an easier time to have all boons up. Having more classes do so is no power creep. You are arguing to make the meta more difficult, which is fine since that stance can be taken, but don't lump that in with your chrono is overpowered bs. > > > > > > As was pointed out, the reason why firebrand and renegade should not be viewed as full supports (and the same reason why they are more popular than chrono in wvw) is their over double damage output. There needs to be more pure supports WITH the drawback of having very low damage. Then once we have that comparison, let's go from there. > > > > > > > Boons don't have to work this linear (and for some boons they actually don't aegis,stab and resistance for example) the only reason boons are mandatory s because they can be given permenatly. Their is no choice anymore what you would like to take because you take everything. > > > > I'm arguing it probably a much healtier balance if people have to go ah we want protection uptime let's take a Hammer guard for example. or the support has to be smart and give prot wen it's most desirable (buttons at Dhuum for example) > > > > Because having all boons available just makes it so people don't care. > > > > (The same reason i'm quite happy the top dps class had no cleave when de became so strong) people actually have to think a little more about what they want. > > > > That's not how boons will work or do work now. Boons at the moment are only required IF they provide an increase in damage. That's the only reason why boons aside from fury, might, quickness and alacrity are needed. Suffice to say, if there was not "damage per boon" traits the need for any of the support boons would drop to 0. > > As far as damage boons, they are either required because sacrificing a raid slot increases overall raid damage or not required thus the slot goes to a damage dealer. Unless there are encounter specific mechanics which require a specific boon (see Deimos) and immediately the meta for those fights becomes more restrictive. > > You will NEVER achieve a more fluent boon mechanic in the current state of the game. It's all about maximizing damage and always has been. > When i started raiding their where a few times where people decided to take a hammerguard because the group was having troubles. My argument is Chrono is overpowered because it takes away almost all the choice. And honestly even if they delete all the boons from chrono i'm sure their will still be fights where people would take powerchrono for pulls for example. (i'm not advocating the deletion off all the boons tho (just a more reasonable level)) > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not misunderstanding I'm disagreeing. The argument you're using just invites power creep. Do we want raids to keep getting easier? What would be the point then? > > > > > > > > > > See what I wrote. On the contrary, the only Power creep comes in form of damage dealer Increasing in performance. > > > > > > > > > > Again there is a difference as to what easy can mean. > > > > > > > > > > Do we want raids to become.mechanically easier (say by reducing their length and skipping mechanics due to insane dps)? No. > > > > > > > > > > Do we want raids to become easier from an organisational aspect by allowing for easier group composition (say by allowing alternatives to chrono which function in a similar way)? I'd say yes. > > > > > > > > the organisational aspect should not be an argument for bad balance. > > > > > > > > Would i like their to be alternatives? Yes ofcourse. > > > > > > > > Does that mean chrono is not OP? no not at all. > > > > > > > > and yes support can be powercrepped even if he is already giving all boons 100% because like i said earlier their is more support then only boons. > > > > > > > > I'm only arguing against you're argument btw because it boils down to. no chrono is not OP because their is nothing as broken to compare it to. And do we want to balance if it makes organisation harder? Which to me are just bad arguments. > > > > > > My argument is: chrono is very strong, but there is nothing to compare it to as benchmark. It's similar to warrior and banners, there is nothing like them yet warriors would have raid spots even if their damage was slashed by 20%. That too is not overpowered. > > > > > > > I would argue it is overpowered. their is indeed nothing that can replace a warrior which honestly is also a problem. It would be better if we had a choice. But that doens't mean the class can not OP because their is no comparrison. (You could make banners for example so that they have a much shorter uptime such that they are good in bursty fights but bad in drawn out fights.) > > Yes you could make a lot of changes and if the resulting change is beneficial to the raids damage output, the class gets a spot. So if you'd be in favor of having more alternatives to warriors (which since banners are now 10 man wide were droped from 2 to 1 mandatory spot), why can this same approach not work for chrono? > > Oh a class can absolutely be overpowered without comparison. In that case though you would have to show how it's overpowered by not comparing it to other classes. It certainly does not help when the class is not overpowered in other game modes (and not even very popular at all) and the only reliable argument is: it's required to get taken along thus it must be overpowered. That alone is no strong argument imo. > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > People incorrectly assume boon givers are all the same. They are not. I have already explained why I would favor to have more classes be able to do what chrono does, instead of slashing chronos abilities. The group meta is dictated by how many slots are mandatory non dps. Reverting back to 5 or 6 slots being mandatory to non damage givers would be a step back and more restrictive. > > > > > > I'm not sure how long you have been raiding, or if at all. We currently have the best and most free meta ever with 6 slots being open to all classes for damage. Going back to an earlier stage would be just so many steps back. > > > > > I have been raiding since the release of W3, not sure if thats relevant for the discussion tho. :p > > > > It is in context that it is beneficial to actually have raided under a more restrictive meta. Something people who are used to only 4 mandatory spots and 6 damage dealers might not understand or have experienced. > > No I was not going down the "omg you are a n00b" road even if that might have seemed that way. :p > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > I have already stated that making boons 10 man wide would also remove one of the chrono mandatory slots which again would be in favor of making grouping easier for raids. Open your mind to possibilities instead of just harping on 1 aspect blindly because nerfing for some people is always the only way to balance. > > > > We have the most free meta that is true and i agree that buffing boons to 10 people would lose a chrono spot. But that would be powercreep (it would open a dps spot). All i am saying is that, We can argue wether chrono is overpowered or not, ease of groupfinding schouldn't be an argument to let an overpowered class exist. > > > > Yes, that's the downside to the 10-man boon change. It would come with powercreep. That's why I'd much prefer having a second support and stick to the 4 man support meta currently. (plus the skill splits for wvw are also extra work). Plus 10-man boons does nothing for fractals. > > Sure, but you have to consider the content you want to use the class for. Chrono is not overpowered in wvw or spvp, on the contrary, firebrand especially is way more popular there for exactly the reasons why it's not popular in raids. > > The reason I bring up the group composition is exactly because the actual content where chronos unique abilities are so strong is only raids and fractals. Making changes to a such integral class would have drastic effects on the difficulty of this content. Considering the longest thread on this forum is about raids needing an easy mode, I'd prefer to take this into consideration before we suddenly face a 3 month cycle after a chrono nerf in which the majority of casual raiders are faced with even more obstacles. It would change it drasticly but should it be a reason. If you assume giving all the boons is OP (I know we disagree on this but roll with it for a second) should we stop trying to fix it because it would make the content harder? I think not but maybe you're opinion is different. To make different options equal we can't just buff the underperforming classes. We also should nerf the overperforming classes even it would make the content harder. because the long term health of the game is more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Before phantasm changes there was option for chrono to provide almost all boons that he provides now. And there were traits that provide +X damage per boon (and more of them/more powerful). Yet noone played chaos because it would make 100percent uptime on alacrity harder. This is how much all boons are worth compared to quickness, alacrity and 25 might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Before phantasm changes there was option for chrono to provide almost all boons that he provides now. And there were traits that provide +X damage per boon (and more of them/more powerful). Yet noone played chaos because it would make 100percent uptime on alacrity harder. This is how much all boons are worth compared to quickness, alacrity and 25 might. Exactly and good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusions on certain fights like Sabetha or MO for the increased raid damage even still thus forgoing the other boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Exactly and good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusions on certain fights like Sabetha or MO for the increased raid damage even still thus forgoing the other boons. Well, depending on the Sqaudcomp/Boss you either dont need all the boons or you get them from your daredevil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Exactly and good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusions on certain fights like Sabetha or MO for the increased raid damage even still thus forgoing the other boons. > > Well, depending on the Sqaudcomp/Boss you either dont need all the boons or you get them from your daredevil. > Dd has a boon share build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Exactly and good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusions on certain fights like Sabetha or MO for the increased raid damage even still thus forgoing the other boons. > > > > Well, depending on the Sqaudcomp/Boss you either dont need all the boons or you get them from your daredevil. > > > > Dd has a boon share build? some new boss steal items give every boon in existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Exactly and good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusions on certain fights like Sabetha or MO for the increased raid damage even still thus forgoing the other boons. > > > > Well, depending on the Sqaudcomp/Boss you either dont need all the boons or you get them from your daredevil. > > > > Dd has a boon share build? Yeah, the regular builds that do 35k+ dps, can also do boonshare (note: not 100% uptime) on any boss where the stolen skill is detonate plasma (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detonate_Plasma). SC considers it the meta choice for a few bosses, often having a single thief in their comp (note detonate plasma gives boons to 10 players). You can check out the bosses where sc uses it by going here: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ and clicking on individual bosses names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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