TexZero.7910 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. Oh okay let me try this then. Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. > > Oh okay let me try this then. > > Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". > > Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? > > We already told you multiple times why we feel this way, because alacrity is fun, and this is a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > > > > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > > > > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. > > > > Oh okay let me try this then. > > > > Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". > > > > Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? > > > > > > We already told you multiple times why we feel this way, because alacrity is fun, and this is a game. Fun is entirely subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. While you may be having fun there could just as easily be another contigent of people who are not. To put it simply, you're likely having "Fun" at someone elses expense. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please explain how something that significantly warps balance like Alacrity does should be allowed to exist in it's current form on a group scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > > > > > > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > > > > > > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. > > > > > > Oh okay let me try this then. > > > > > > Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". > > > > > > Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? > > > > > > > > > > We already told you multiple times why we feel this way, because alacrity is fun, and this is a game. > > Fun is entirely subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. While you may be having fun there could just as easily be another contigent of people who are not. To put it simply, you're likely having "Fun" at someone elses expense. > > Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please explain how something that significantly warps balance like Alacrity does should be allowed to exist in it's current form on a group scale. oh I see, so this vague concept of balance isn't subjective then? Ok, please tell me the metric your using to quantitatively and objectively assess 'balance'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > > > > > > > > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > > > > > > > > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. > > > > > > > > Oh okay let me try this then. > > > > > > > > Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". > > > > > > > > Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already told you multiple times why we feel this way, because alacrity is fun, and this is a game. > > > > Fun is entirely subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. While you may be having fun there could just as easily be another contigent of people who are not. To put it simply, you're likely having "Fun" at someone elses expense. > > > > Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please explain how something that significantly warps balance like Alacrity does should be allowed to exist in it's current form on a group scale. > > oh I see, so this vague concept of balance isn't subjective then? Ok, please tell me the metric your using to quantitatively and objectively assess 'balance'. Ideally, no balance isn't subjective as it can quite easily be computed so that all classes have specialization that perform within a set goal. We've yet to get there because there's way to much subjectivity being used by yourself and i'd assume a portion of the balance team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > Removing 25% of a cooldown is the same as reducing the cooldown with 25%. > > > > > > > > > > > > It might be pedantic but you where the one who instead of saying "it appears I misspoke" went on to pull the wiki to proof you're right while being wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > And I agree alacrity is really strong although it's strength also is very class dependant. > > > > > > > > > > Oh okay let me try this then. > > > > > > > > > > Ehem, i mispoke. To all the people concered with the pednatry of the situation Alacrity does not "remove 25% of a cooldown" it "increases the Recharge Rate by 25%". > > > > > > > > > > Now then can the english majors whose only concern seems to be pednatry accept this so we can move on to why they still feel that by their own admission the effect on game is warping and yet that somehow doesn't warrant it being restricted because Anet has already proven through multiple changes that it still does not know how to manage such a gameplay warping effect ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already told you multiple times why we feel this way, because alacrity is fun, and this is a game. > > > > > > Fun is entirely subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. While you may be having fun there could just as easily be another contigent of people who are not. To put it simply, you're likely having "Fun" at someone elses expense. > > > > > > Now that we've gotten that out of the way, please explain how something that significantly warps balance like Alacrity does should be allowed to exist in it's current form on a group scale. > > > > oh I see, so this vague concept of balance isn't subjective then? Ok, please tell me the metric your using to quantitatively and objectively assess 'balance'. > > Ideally, no balance isn't subjective as it can quite easily be computed so that all classes have specialization that perform within a set goal. We've yet to get there because there's way to much subjectivity being used by yourself and i'd assume a portion of the balance team. No no no, please answer the question. You said, fun is subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. Tell me your metric to determine balance, that way we can clearly so why alacrity is the one thing in the game that makes balance impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > No no no, please answer the question. You said, fun is subjective and has no place in deciding if something is appropriately balanced. Tell me your metric to determine balance, that way we can clearly so why alacrity is the one thing in the game that makes balance impossible. I never stated alacrity is the one thing that made balance impossible. Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? Consider the following skills which have been nerfed.... Meteor Shower, Epidemic, Scorched Earth, Coalescence of Ruin, every engineer turret, Weakening Charge, Ranger Spirits etc... So whose fun is more important because i can pretty clearly state that people had fun using those skills, but clearly according to you fun gameplay should be a primary point of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. The people who pay more money, their fun is more important. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantaria.8726 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Maybe continue that in a private chat you two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasoki.5180 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > First, WTF? Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > First, kitten? > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > By that logic chrono is balanced because all other quickness bots (none) are very close to chrono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > By that logic chrono is balanced because all other quickness bots (none) are very close to chrono you mean alcarity bots right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > First, kitten? > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > By that logic chrono is balanced because all other quickness bots (none) are very close to chrono > > you mean alcarity bots right? No, i mean quickness bots. There are 2 alacrity bots but only one quickness bot. The problem is that in order for fb/rev to compete with chrono/druid both fb must be competition with chrono (which he isnt cause he cannot reliably produce quickness) and rev compete with druid. Even if fb quickness is fixed i think fb/rev comp will not compete simply because meta is only 1 druid but you need 2 revenants for alacrity and might. That way your main advantage is taken away. I wouldnt say that chrono is the problem but druid is. Druid has unmatched spirits + all boons go on 10 players so you only need one. Even when herald can now stack might for 10 players he cannot do that for alacrity and hybrid renegade cannot provide might (and alacrity) for 10 players so you again need 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasoki.5180 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 There is only one class that can do what chrono does, and it is chrono. Only one class has such quickness+alacrity uptime.> @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here. Feel free to show how is it legitimate that one class has control over two most important boons in the game, and only it has the capacity to do them in such a combination. And how is the difference minimal? It even can't be since no other class has such quickness and alacrity generation. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > > > > By that logic chrono is balanced because all other quickness bots (none) are very close to chrono > > > > you mean alcarity bots right? > > No, i mean quickness bots. There are 2 alacrity bots but only one quickness bot. The problem is that in order for fb/rev to compete with chrono/druid both fb must be competition with chrono (which he isnt cause he cannot reliably produce quickness) and rev compete with druid. Even if fb quickness is fixed i think fb/rev comp will not compete simply because meta is only 1 druid but you need 2 revenants for alacrity and might. That way your main advantage is taken away. I wouldnt say that chrono is the problem but druid is. Druid has unmatched spirits + all boons go on 10 players so you only need one. Even when herald can now stack might for 10 players he cannot do that for alacrity and hybrid renegade cannot provide might (and alacrity) for 10 players so you again need 2 It has already been shown in this topic that Firebrand with viper gear can have great quickness. Only problem firebrand has with quickness is the range, radius and direction of mantras since its quite easy to miss someone. But I agree that druid/revenant competition is part of the problem as its far more in favour of druid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > There is only one class that can do what chrono does, and it is chrono. Only one class has such quickness+alacrity uptime.> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here. > > Feel free to show how is it legitimate that one class has control over two most important boons in the game, and only it has the capacity to do them in such a combination. And how is the difference minimal? It even can't be since no other class has such quickness and alacrity generation. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > > > > > > > By that logic chrono is balanced because all other quickness bots (none) are very close to chrono > > > > > > you mean alcarity bots right? > > > > No, i mean quickness bots. There are 2 alacrity bots but only one quickness bot. The problem is that in order for fb/rev to compete with chrono/druid both fb must be competition with chrono (which he isnt cause he cannot reliably produce quickness) and rev compete with druid. Even if fb quickness is fixed i think fb/rev comp will not compete simply because meta is only 1 druid but you need 2 revenants for alacrity and might. That way your main advantage is taken away. I wouldnt say that chrono is the problem but druid is. Druid has unmatched spirits + all boons go on 10 players so you only need one. Even when herald can now stack might for 10 players he cannot do that for alacrity and hybrid renegade cannot provide might (and alacrity) for 10 players so you again need 2 > > It has already been shown in this topic that Firebrand with viper gear can have great quickness. Only problem firebrand has with quickness is the range, radius and direction of mantras since its quite easy to miss someone. > > But I agree that druid/revenant competition is part of the problem as its far more in favour of druid It can have 100 percent uptime but in fights with alot of movement players will lose huge portion. Also mantras (which are huge part of quickness generation) chose targets based on distance first instead of based on subsquads. This way if you are not position perfectly 1 or more players might be without quickness because another player gets quickness from both firebrands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > First, kitten? > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > Your response made no sense because you didn't read our whole conversation, which I understand because its a long conversation. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that balance between classes isn't quantifiable. I'm saying, the opinion that alacrity needs to be removed from the game is subjective. As for the first part, thats just how a microtransaction game works. Hate anet for playing that way, not me for observing reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > There is only one class that can do what chrono does, and it is chrono. Only one class has such quickness+alacrity uptime.> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here. > > Feel free to show how is it legitimate that one class has control over two most important boons in the game, and only it has the capacity to do them in such a combination. And how is the difference minimal? It even can't be since no other class has such quickness and alacrity generation. Easy. Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS. Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS. Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments. > such quickness and alacrity generation. You mean pressing a mantra and giving 6 to 12 seconds of quickness or pressing F2 and giving 6 to 12 seconds of alacrity? Yeah, "no means of such quickness and alacrity generation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasoki.5180 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > There is only one class that can do what chrono does, and it is chrono. Only one class has such quickness+alacrity uptime.> > > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > Since you're so tied up in your ways i'll answer your question once you can answer mine. How do you measure fun, and whose fun is more important ? > > > > > > > > > > You measure fun by asking people to rate their fun out of ten. **The people who pay more money, their fun is more important**. Now explain to me the metric by which your measuring balance, so we can clearly see why alacrity is breaking it. You know, since you said balance should be objective, it must be quantifiable right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, kitten? > > > > > > > > Second, in PvE balance can be understood as situation where professions applying for the same role can both properly perform it with reasonable differences and if there are differences in output they are legitimate and as minimal as possible > > > > > > > > > > And they are legitimate and as minimal as possible. I don't see the problem here. > > > > Feel free to show how is it legitimate that one class has control over two most important boons in the game, and only it has the capacity to do them in such a combination. And how is the difference minimal? It even can't be since no other class has such quickness and alacrity generation. > > Easy. > Chrono has access to many boons and strong CC with incredibly low DPS. > Firebrand has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS. > Renegade has access to mediocre amount of boons with mediocre CC but strong DPS and some strong profession-specific enchantments. > Which in the current state of the game means that #1 is more viable and consequential than #2 and #3 as support and thus indirectly as a "tank". So they arent even applying for the same role or within the same party compostion. Which is literally what i sad when i mention what balance is in my previous post. And again, not all boons are the same. I dont know why at this point some players are even pretending that quickness + alacrity are not far more consequential than other boons. > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > You mean pressing a mantra and giving 6 to 12 seconds of quickness or pressing F2 and giving 6 to 12 seconds of alacrity? Yeah, "no means of such quickness and alacrity generation". Huh? I assume you are talking about guardian and revenant, neither which of can give both quickness and alacrity. I was talking about professions that can give both, and thus basically free up slots in party compostion The only class that can get quickness and/or alacrity from mantra and/or F2 skill is a chronomancer. Which is literally my entire point. Which you have just proved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > And again, not all boons are the same. I dont know why at this point some players are even pretending that quickness + alacrity are not far more consequential than other boons. Some other boons? yes, they are. All other boons? Nope, they aren't. 25 stacks of might are in no way more inconsequential than alacrity or quickness. And notice, that the only reason why might is not considered to be an equal problem by people clamoring about quickness/alacity is because it has more than one reliable source. Druids are just more convenient for now. Which just makes my point - it's not the chrono itself that is a problem, but the fact that there are no alternatives. And the solution is not to nerf chrono, but to create those alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 You can't take down meta. It's like moving a mountain...Create landslide, earthquake and flooding .. ppl leave :p Kill chrono will not solve the problem probably make raid harder to average group unless they also nerf boss to compensate. And kill druid I will quit raid ? I don't have a static group to play with. Being oceanic player it's tough enough to fit into server prime play time, most of us have to pug raid. Having to adjust to each update and each nerf feels like punishment.. it's not our fault when we have to pug, when we pug we face diff ppl. Just saying. I'm not complaining. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > And again, not all boons are the same. I dont know why at this point some players are even pretending that quickness + alacrity are not far more consequential than other boons. > Some other boons? yes, they are. All other boons? Nope, they aren't. 25 stacks of might are in no way more inconsequential than alacrity or quickness. And notice, that the only reason why might is not considered to be an equal problem by people clamoring about quickness/alacity is because it has more than one reliable source. Druids are just more convenient for now. > > Which just makes my point - it's not the chrono itself that is a problem, but the fact that there are no alternatives. And the solution is not to nerf chrono, but to create those alternatives. Agrred. There is no real alternative to the Chrono. The closest to an alternative, for giving alacrity and quickness are revenant and firebrand but both lack the one buff the other class is giving. Just for thought, lets say we nerf chrono into oblivion. What will happen with the group composition? One chrono will be most likely replaced with a rev AND a firebrand. And since Anet still likes the 5 man booncap its gonna be 2 firebrands and 2 revs instead of just 2 chronos. So instead of 4 fixed raid spots ( double chrono druid and warrior ) we'll have 6 again which is much more restrictive than what we have now. I can't see someone actually wanting this. And people will go for it because they want both alacrity and quickness, they won't like it but will still use it. So instead of nerfing chrono, we need alternatives. Chrono can give both alacrity and quickness, its the reason why people take it. We need another class that can give us both otherwise nerfing the chrono will do much more harm to raiding than helping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Nah, druid is somewhat fine. They could buff druids healing a bit and nerf spirits - spirits are the real offender anyway. The main-problem is chrono. Chrono is just superior to any other class at too much stuff; Chrono is also the only class with access to both alacritiy and quickness (and literally every other boon through Chaos). Many people already suggested to give other supports access to both alacrity and quickness, but that really won't help since it still wouldn't equalize the ridiculously powerful tool-kit Chrono has access to and of course the huge amount of defiance bar damage through Moa. Stuff like feedback, focus-pull or other stuff are just too nice to have and Moa is far too strong and needs some nerfing - maybe from 1.000 defiance bar damage to 500 or something like that to actually enforce some teamplay. Could also help to exorcize the god-complex some chronos suffer from. Remove druids might gen and spirits and fury is the better solution thats only reason druid is in party in first place even rev heal more than druid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > Chrono can give both alacrity and quickness, its the reason why people take it. It's one of the reasons why but not the only one. In my opinion, the list is pretty expansive for why Chrono is taken. It also isn't very easy to solve. 1. Bountiful Disillusionment in Chaos. Access to extra might, vigor, fury, prot, stability in a group setting makes the gameplay way more safe and consistent. Also buffs warrior, deadeye, arcane ele, etc. 2. Signet of Inspiration. One huge difference between FB/Rev and Chrono is that chrono can maintain boons that it doesn't generate itself (or permanently itself). A few big hitters are protection from stone spirit, retaliation for/from DH, Aegis from numerous sources, etc. Extra uptime on might, fury, vigor, regen, prot, etc. 3. Strong CC with many options. Focus, tides of time, moa, gravity well, etc. Lots of CC that can be easily customized for the fight. 4. One thing that people don't talk about as much is the fact that people would continue to play chrono even if 1-3 are nerfed (or other classes buffed) simply because they have it geared and have developed strategies around using chrono. 3 years of chrono strats, players, gear, etc won't just go away if another option becomes comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Not that i have much of a clue, but considering that chrono shield skill 4 is basically a cc + quickness skill. And wells are healing as well as doing powerful unique boons alongside some conditions, I dunno, These skills do way too much utility things imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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