Which core/base profession do you want reworked/revamped?

[messiah.1908]

rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

[Nimon.7840]

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

 

Wait what?

What gamemode are you referring to?

 

In pve, ranger, mesmer, necro don't have very good core builds right now

And for PvP and wvw that's even more classes, as I would add engineer

[derd.6413]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> > > > Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

> > >

> > > You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

> > >

> > > > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > > A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

> > >

> >

> >

> > Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

>

> Well, it doesn't actually fix a problem and I prefer fixing problems as opposed to just giving the illusion that you are addressing a problem. Perhaps people begged for it back in HoT but now that we have seen it in action we know that it doesn't benefit us. It is either lackluster and useless (Shiro and Jalis) or slanted and makes it clear that only specific Legends are worth running (Glint and Mallyx). It doesn't really add support elements to Revenant play (but would be taken into consideration when developing additional mechanics) and Revenant would be better off addressing issues between traits and abilities than trying to just tack on a bunch of conditions.

 

so because their first implementation wasn't perfect the whole concept should be thrown out

 

and the changes doesn't exclusively have to be condi's

 

also the issue it's addressing is the common complaint that rev seems unfinished, that it's lacking something.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

I would totally like a weapon rework for ele !

 

I think... it would be better for the ele to have a role more defined by the weapon they choose instead of the attunement they are on . Which is more the case now.

 

Basically only offhand weapons have a SPECIFIC role (kinda)

* Focus : more of a defensive aspect (less true now with detonating fire aura + lignthing rod)

* Dagger : pure AOE CC and damage basically.

* Warhorn : support Boon , healing and CC. low damage.

 

But the main weapons and STAFF are too versatile (dagger was kinda but sword outclassed it)

 

For me, warhorn needs to be more specialized in air and earth into CC- support that it is now . Air warhorn skills should be AOE targeted instead of going in one direction:

* Air 4 : same as firebrand pull in courage tome (with wind animations ofc)

* Air 5 : putting an orb and fireing ligthing in the area location (projectiles) => same mechanics but in a non mobile area.

 

* earth 5 : basically not usefull at all ... basically the worst warhorn skill. A soft CC such as a dust wind around you for 1 hit that blinds and or daze for 1 sec? dunno honestly haha was more thinking of a melee defense against rushers.

 

Conclusion : rework dagger main hand and staff skills and redefined their role more would be (imo) a good aspect to improve core ele :)

 

PS : Warhorn is tempest not core but i needed to talk about it ahaha

[messiah.1908]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"messiah.1908" said:

> > rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

>

> Wait what?

> What gamemode are you referring to?

>

> In pve, ranger, mesmer, necro don't have very good core builds right now

> And for PvP and wvw that's even more classes, as I would add engineer

 

rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

[scerevisiae.1972]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> > Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.

> > Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

> >

> > Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

> >

> > I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

>

> Ever tried core necro? xD

 

I have 1 of every class, and 2 necros. I main necro. I still say core ranger is the worst, easily.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> > > Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.

> > > Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

> > >

> > > Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

> > >

> > > I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

> >

> > Ever tried core necro? xD

>

> I have 1 of every class, and 2 necros. I main necro. I still say core ranger is the worst, easily.

 

Ok sure

Up to you ;)

 

I know someone who also said, that core ranger was bad. I told him to play core necro.

First he found it great, after 2 weeks, he asked me how necro can be worse than ranger xD

 

 

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"messiah.1908" said:

> rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

 

This. If you try it you clearly see that core and Herald came in the same time and Herald(Glint legend) is something like Invocation traitline you just need it for quality of life.

[Dace.8173]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> > > > > Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

> > > >

> > > > You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > > > A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

> >

> > Well, it doesn't actually fix a problem and I prefer fixing problems as opposed to just giving the illusion that you are addressing a problem. Perhaps people begged for it back in HoT but now that we have seen it in action we know that it doesn't benefit us. It is either lackluster and useless (Shiro and Jalis) or slanted and makes it clear that only specific Legends are worth running (Glint and Mallyx). It doesn't really add support elements to Revenant play (but would be taken into consideration when developing additional mechanics) and Revenant would be better off addressing issues between traits and abilities than trying to just tack on a bunch of conditions.

>

> so because their first implementation wasn't perfect the whole concept should be thrown out

>

> and the changes doesn't exclusively have to be condi's

>

> also the issue it's addressing is the common complaint that rev seems unfinished, that it's lacking something.

 

Actually, their first implementation highlighted why it is a bad idea. The fact that it wasn't perfect is immaterial to the fact that now that we see what it might look like it's easier to see that this is not a good fix for Revenant. Changing the bonus from condi to something else doesn't remove any of the issues I listed. Whatever bonus you apply you are going to narrow the field of focus for each Legend which in turn limits the number of viable builds said Legend would be good at. You are still, invariably, going to have some bonuses that are clearly better than others, which again, will cause a narrowing of build diversity as future builds focus themselves around the traits that are worthwhile. Since Revenant cannot mix and match utilities, which is typically how other professions help create build diversity, any fix that further focuses a Legend down a specific road will in turn limit viable builds support by the Legend. I am 100% ok with how Revenant utilities work. I just do not support ideas that will cause fewer builds. This, also, does nothing to address the complaint that Revenant seems unfinished. Yes, it lacks something. This is not that something though.

[scerevisiae.1972]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"messiah.1908" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"messiah.1908" said:

> > rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

>

> This. If you try it you clearly see that core and Herald came in the same time and Herald(Glint legend) is something like Invocation traitline you just need it for quality of life.

 

actually core rev is not bad at all -- try shiro + mallyx / hammer + S/S, marauder armour, cavalier trinkets, grieving or zerker weapons, invocation/retribution/corruption. Does a lot of damage in WVW and is very survivable because of high resistance and stability uptime, and shiro evades/teleports.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The only justification for necro reworks is that the needs of PvP and PvE elitism clash. When it's strong in PvP it's weak in optimized raid speedrun PvE because of how shroud works. Anything ANet does to necro and shroud will butcher necro in one of the respective modes and make it either a stronger/weaker copy of another profession or downright worthless.

 

Thief warrants the rework more on the basis that it's got a lot of problems that have little implications for major change.

 

- Almost half of thief's weapon sets are junk and more than one of its traitlines are really niche which makes them overperform or suck.

- There are too many hard-dependencies on specific traits for base functionality, notably things like Preparedness and SoH's steal CDR.

- Deadeye still needs more revision and can't really be balanced as-is from a concept perspective.

- The most effective builds are generally exploitative and not fun to play against because the foundation of the class can't handle the current game-state as it wasn't designed to deal with this level of powercreep, and even if they nerfed everything into oblivion (as ANet should but clearly has no interest in doing), it wouldn't change the above.

 

[Horan.7013]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The only justification for necro reworks is that the needs of PvP and PvE elitism clash. When it's strong in PvP it's weak in optimized raid speedrun PvE because of how shroud works. Anything ANet does to necro and shroud will butcher necro in one of the respective modes and make it either a stronger/weaker copy of another profession or downright worthless.

>

> Thief warrants the rework more on the basis that it's got a lot of problems that have little implications for major change.

>

> - Almost half of thief's weapon sets are junk and more than one of its traitlines are really niche which makes them overperform or suck.

> - There are too many hard-dependencies on specific traits for base functionality, notably things like Preparedness and SoH's steal CDR.

> - Deadeye still needs more revision and can't really be balanced as-is from a concept perspective.

> - The most effective builds are generally exploitative and not fun to play against because the foundation of the class can't handle the current game-state as it wasn't designed to deal with this level of powercreep, and even if they nerfed everything into oblivion (as ANet should but clearly has no interest in doing), it wouldn't change the above.

>

 

I totally agree with you. Thief’s signature survival and attack skills revolve around its stealth, which due to its nature tend to perceived by others “overpowered”, “annoying” and cause a lot of hate.

 

But as obnoxious as it can be, thief is actually quite underperforming compared to other classes.

In PvP and WvW, thief’s contribution to winning the game is pathetic unless you are one of the top skilled thief players. But if equal skilled player plays different class, he/she can contribute to the team winning much more.

Only thing thief have left is a gimmick DE build that is causing a lot of hate toward the class.

Because of the community outcry for such a broken build, if Anet nerf the class without re-working the thief as a whole, it will cripple the class.

[Dace.8173]

As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

 

Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

[Dace.8173]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

>

> Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

 

Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

> >

> > Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

>

> Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

 

They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

[Blue.1207]

Elementalist has been the exact same worthless piece of a core class since launch. The only thing it ever had going for it outside of FGS cheeze was the era of cele-ele for pvp/wvw roaming. No class in the history of this game has ever been pigeon holed so readily into specific traits/traitlines.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

> > >

 

@"Dace.8173" Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

 

> > > Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

> >

> > Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

>

> They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

 

And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.

And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.

Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

 

Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

 

Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

> > > >

>

> @"Dace.8173" Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

>

> > > > Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

> > >

> > > Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

> >

> > They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

>

> And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.

> And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.

> Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

>

> Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

>

> Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

 

I disagee about the boons on bosses part. Most of the boon corrupt into rather useless boons for 3 reasons: 1. The boss has a defiance bar making condis like blind weakness and slow useless. 2. Other classes are already perma stacking those condis. And 3: spellbreaker and mes can boon rip better with the former gaining dps from doing so.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'm saying that the act of boon corruption should be buffed in PvE-only and that more boons should be utilized as means to allow for corruption. Boon stripping denies them better, yes, but turning those boons into enough damage makes stripping them not worthwhile which gives the necro a role it has in WvW and the PvP modes. Stripping is potent; corruption is lethal.

 

For example, if in PvE vigor would corrupt to 20 stacks of bleed and bosses had a lot of vigor to corrupt, necro's damage contributions and the value of corruption vs boon strip would massively favor the necro. Nothing needs to change at all as far as skills or what they do. Nothing for the cost of LF, shroud decay rate, etc. Even with a power build, there's a lot of condition damage to be gained with 25 might and lots of corruption.

 

It'd also be good for PvE encounters to simulate PvP - like bosses just having tons of stability and resistance, animations affected by quickness/slow, cooldowns on chill/alacrity, one-shotting players, dodging major skills, etc. - where necros shine the most since they have so much battlefield control, but that's a whole other subject.

[Iozeph.5617]

Core Engineer but it won't bloody happen because Scrapper and Holosmith.

 

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I'm saying that the act of boon corruption should be buffed in PvE-only and that more boons should be utilized as means to allow for corruption. Boon stripping denies them better, yes, but turning those boons into enough damage makes stripping them not worthwhile which gives the necro a role it has in WvW and the PvP modes. Stripping is potent; corruption is lethal.

>

> For example, if in PvE vigor would corrupt to 20 stacks of bleed and bosses had a lot of vigor to corrupt, necro's damage contributions and the value of corruption vs boon strip would massively favor the necro. Nothing needs to change at all as far as skills or what they do. Nothing for the cost of LF, shroud decay rate, etc. Even with a power build, there's a lot of condition damage to be gained with 25 might and lots of corruption.

>

Possible, but unlikely. That would necessitate limiting the types of boons a boss would have to ones that corrupt into damaging ones, or the corrupt will eat a prot/stab and you end up with no dps gain. Also that can't be on all bosses or necro will join druid mes and war leaving us with 4 mandatory classes on all bosses, and people have been trying to get rid if those 3. I'd much rather see necro get reworked.

 

> It'd also be good for PvE encounters to simulate PvP - like bosses just having tons of stability and resistance, animations affected by quickness/slow, cooldowns on chill/alacrity, one-shotting players, dodging major skills, etc. - where necros shine the most since they have so much battlefield control, but that's a whole other subject.

 

Most pvers dont want to simulate pvp in their instances though. Also what use would a boss have for stab? They're already immune to all ccs unless their defiance breaks, which is usually only open to damage when they do a mechanic that wipes the group if it fails.

[Dace.8173]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

> > > >

>

> @"Dace.8173" Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

>

> > > > Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

> > >

> > > Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

> >

> > They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

>

> And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.

> And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.

> Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

>

> Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

>

> Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

 

I think you would find a sizeable group of non-Theif players who disagree with the idea that only a few dozen people are truly good with the profession.

[Undertow.2389]

I voted guardian not because it's horribly weak or anything, just that core guardian virtues are (IMO) easily the most boring, almost non-existent, class mechanic of them all. Dragonhunter spices them up a little bit and firebrand makes them fine, but core is just /yawn, especially from a pve perspective.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

> @"Undertow.2389" said:

> I voted guardian not because it's horribly weak or anything, just that core guardian virtues are (IMO) easily the most boring, almost non-existent, class mechanic of them all. Dragonhunter spices them up a little bit and firebrand makes them fine, but core is just /yawn, especially from a pve perspective.

 

Agreed. Virtues are essentially glorified signets. Tomes should be core with different skills depending on elite spec.

 

I picked engineer for similar reasons. Toolbelt skills are just split effects of utility skills. We get to press more buttons to have the same effects. Yay... Kits really should be the profession mechanic.