Why not make Elite Spec weapons baseline once you unlock the weapon in the ES line

[Hynoris.3684]

My gut tells me they will make this change in 2-3 years from now to shake the meta and to grab old players to play in the game twilight years

 

so people who say "never ever" should remember the discussions about mounts and all the pile of compelling arguments against it, always bet on the money I know anet does, after all, there's a reason why every new spec is desirable in the meta and most core specs can barely compete

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> => @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Because the weapons are part of the elite spec definition.

> >

>

> As a suggestion to unlock them for the overall class, which this is, i dont see an issue, outside of them simply not wanting to.

 

Then I think you should probably be more open and listen to people that do.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > => @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Because the weapons are part of the elite spec definition.

> > >

> >

> > As a suggestion to unlock them for the overall class, which this is, i dont see an issue, outside of them simply not wanting to.

>

> Then I think you should probably be more open and listen to people that do.

 

Oh im open, i just want things explained outside of "its part of the definition", im sorry but that doesnt make sense to me at all, you arent going to forget how to use a weapon once you know how, which is what happens when you unequip the elite spec, on top of that without the elite spec most of the weapons would still work for the theme of the class. Other posters saying and then explaining how it would be overpowered and make balance harder, *those* are reasons i can fully understand, and they make sense to me.

[Obtena.7952]

And lots of people have done that for you in this thread. I can think of others as well that I haven't seen, mostly to do with the business side of things (like the fact that changing it won't drive new revenues.) That puts it pretty low as an innovation that Anet should implement.

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > Aside from the usual, "It shouldn't change because that's how it is." argument, ANet has done a lot to avoid players finding "unexpected synergy" in builds going all the way back to the game's beginnings. I don't expect the leopard to change its spots, though it might be interesting to tinker with what would be possible.

> >

> > Kinda funny since GW1's skills were loved BECAUSE you could find unexpected synergy from mixing them up.

>

> Yes, and when GW2 was being discussed before launch, the "balance problems" those presented were something ANet stated they wanted to limit as much as possible.

 

And here we are, with a ton of balance problems constantly.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > Aside from the usual, "It shouldn't change because that's how it is." argument, ANet has done a lot to avoid players finding "unexpected synergy" in builds going all the way back to the game's beginnings. I don't expect the leopard to change its spots, though it might be interesting to tinker with what would be possible.

> > >

> > > Kinda funny since GW1's skills were loved BECAUSE you could find unexpected synergy from mixing them up.

> >

> > Yes, and when GW2 was being discussed before launch, the "balance problems" those presented were something ANet stated they wanted to limit as much as possible.

>

> And here we are, with a ton of balance problems constantly.

 

Yes ... so no reason to add even more ... or maybe you like balance problems?

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > Aside from the usual, "It shouldn't change because that's how it is." argument, ANet has done a lot to avoid players finding "unexpected synergy" in builds going all the way back to the game's beginnings. I don't expect the leopard to change its spots, though it might be interesting to tinker with what would be possible.

> > > >

> > > > Kinda funny since GW1's skills were loved BECAUSE you could find unexpected synergy from mixing them up.

> > >

> > > Yes, and when GW2 was being discussed before launch, the "balance problems" those presented were something ANet stated they wanted to limit as much as possible.

> >

> > And here we are, with a ton of balance problems constantly.

>

> Yes ... so no reason to add even more ... or maybe you like balance problems?

 

I like when the balance is fixed and having to make specific weapons work solely for a spec is one of the reasons we don't have that.

[Turbin.2450]

I love a necromancer, from weapons I like swords, bows and pistols with guns. All this is his only elite specializations. I can not make a necromancer ranger (master of sword and bow) or duelist (pirate), and these are my favorite archetypes. Not fair. With other classes, there is a similar situation. All specializations have an emphasis on a certain weapon, but the game does not require the use of a specific weapon. Many take elite specialization and do not use bonus weapons. But to take this weapon without specialization is impossible.

[derd.6413]

> @"Turbin.2450" said:

 

this thread was dead for over 4 months.

 

are you lost?

[Turbin.2450]

This problem will be relevant as long as the bonus weapons, at least the first elite specs are not made available by default in the future :)

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

 

Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

 

Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

 

More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

 

Idk. There's just no new innovation coming from Anet. Take away mounts and GW2 is still pretty much the same game that released 6 years ago. With a focus on okayish story and the map exploration wioth their horrifying 15 heart quests in each zone. Yeah you can play a different spec now and with another weapon. But nothing Anet does is adding on top of something that was already there, it all just stands somewhat lonely besides each other.

 

Not a game for long term players that play more than 2 hours a week imo.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Turbin.2450" said:

> This problem will be relevant as long as the bonus weapons, at least the first elite specs are not made available by default in the future :)

 

So the problem will remain relevant until the game shuts down since there is no chance that Arenanet will throw all balance out the window and decide to allow all weapons become available.

 

Again, why necro this nonsense? There is dozens of reasons why this will not be done, and the only one in favor is some people's personal preference.

 

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

>

> Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

>

> Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

>

> More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

>

> Idk. There's just no new innovation coming from Anet. Take away mounts and GW2 is still pretty much the same game that released 6 years ago. With a focus on okayish story and the map exploration wioth their horrifying 15 heart quests in each zone. Yeah you can play a different spec now and with another weapon. But nothing Anet does is adding on top of something that was already there, it all just stands somewhat lonely besides each other.

>

> Not a game for long term players that play more than 2 hours a week imo.

 

Are you done ranting? Because almost nothing you said relates to this thread, even worse, you are replying to someone who posted 4 months ago.

[derd.6413]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

>

> Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

>

> Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

>

> More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

 

m8 are you drunk? just because anet wants to keep power creep in check you think "lol, gam ded"?

 

 

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Turbin.2450" said:

> > This problem will be relevant as long as the bonus weapons, at least the first elite specs are not made available by default in the future :)

>

> So the problem will remain relevant until the game shuts down since there is no chance that Arenanet will throw all balance out the window and decide to allow all weapons become available.

>

> Again, why necro this nonsense? There is dozens of reasons why this will not be done, and the only one in favor is some people's personal preference.

>

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

> >

> > Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

> >

> > Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

> >

> > More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

> >

> > Idk. There's just no new innovation coming from Anet. Take away mounts and GW2 is still pretty much the same game that released 6 years ago. With a focus on okayish story and the map exploration wioth their horrifying 15 heart quests in each zone. Yeah you can play a different spec now and with another weapon. But nothing Anet does is adding on top of something that was already there, it all just stands somewhat lonely besides each other.

> >

> > Not a game for long term players that play more than 2 hours a week imo.

>

> Are you done ranting? Because almost nothing you said relates to this thread, even worse, you are replying to someone who posted 4 months ago.

 

I didn't reply, I quoted. I've recently also quoted someone that that died 2000 years ago. So what. I amr replying to this thread and took an argument of someone in it as a basis for my points.

 

I said I would like weapons, made a point for them and then saiod why it won't happen.

 

Maybe you should read my comment again and stop forum policing. That's not at all your job.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

> >

> > Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

> >

> > Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

> >

> > More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

>

> m8 are you drunk? just because anet wants to keep power creep in check you think "lol, gam ded"?

>

>

 

There's no power creep with enabling you to get different weapons lol.

It's not like you get to have now another weapon swap or another 2 hand weapon at the same time. Now that would be power creep.

 

Adding additional choices for build is adding more complexity and makes balancing harder, which I btw wrote as an argument against it

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Turbin.2450" said:

> > > This problem will be relevant as long as the bonus weapons, at least the first elite specs are not made available by default in the future :)

> >

> > So the problem will remain relevant until the game shuts down since there is no chance that Arenanet will throw all balance out the window and decide to allow all weapons become available.

> >

> > Again, why necro this nonsense? There is dozens of reasons why this will not be done, and the only one in favor is some people's personal preference.

> >

> > > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

> > >

> > > Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

> > >

> > > More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

> > >

> > > Idk. There's just no new innovation coming from Anet. Take away mounts and GW2 is still pretty much the same game that released 6 years ago. With a focus on okayish story and the map exploration wioth their horrifying 15 heart quests in each zone. Yeah you can play a different spec now and with another weapon. But nothing Anet does is adding on top of something that was already there, it all just stands somewhat lonely besides each other.

> > >

> > > Not a game for long term players that play more than 2 hours a week imo.

> >

> > Are you done ranting? Because almost nothing you said relates to this thread, even worse, you are replying to someone who posted 4 months ago.

>

> I didn't reply, I quoted. I've recently also quoted someone that that died 2000 years ago. So what. I amr replying to this thread and took an argument of someone in it as a basis for my points.

>

> I said I would like weapons, made a point for them and then saiod why it won't happen.

>

> Maybe you should read my comment again and stop forum policing. That's not at all your job.

 

Maybe take your own advice? Check who the quoted part you used from my post related too. It was not you. Quoting that part (which was aimed at the person necroing the thread) while leaving out my reply to you is not only misleading but downright bad form when it comes to quoting.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Turbin.2450" said:

> > > > This problem will be relevant as long as the bonus weapons, at least the first elite specs are not made available by default in the future :)

> > >

> > > So the problem will remain relevant until the game shuts down since there is no chance that Arenanet will throw all balance out the window and decide to allow all weapons become available.

> > >

> > > Again, why necro this nonsense? There is dozens of reasons why this will not be done, and the only one in favor is some people's personal preference.

> > >

> > > > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

> > > >

> > > > Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

> > > >

> > > > Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

> > > >

> > > > More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

> > > >

> > > > Idk. There's just no new innovation coming from Anet. Take away mounts and GW2 is still pretty much the same game that released 6 years ago. With a focus on okayish story and the map exploration wioth their horrifying 15 heart quests in each zone. Yeah you can play a different spec now and with another weapon. But nothing Anet does is adding on top of something that was already there, it all just stands somewhat lonely besides each other.

> > > >

> > > > Not a game for long term players that play more than 2 hours a week imo.

> > >

> > > Are you done ranting? Because almost nothing you said relates to this thread, even worse, you are replying to someone who posted 4 months ago.

> >

> > I didn't reply, I quoted. I've recently also quoted someone that that died 2000 years ago. So what. I amr replying to this thread and took an argument of someone in it as a basis for my points.

> >

> > I said I would like weapons, made a point for them and then saiod why it won't happen.

> >

> > Maybe you should read my comment again and stop forum policing. That's not at all your job.

>

> Maybe take your own advice? Check who the quoted part you used from my post related too. It was not you. Quoting that part (which was aimed at the person necroing the thread) while leaving out my reply to you is not only misleading but downright bad form when it comes to quoting.

 

 

Whatever, I don't care about ´this childish forum banter about what you comment or why you necro. That's something for the moderators. I care about the topic. If you have to say something about what I wrote regarding it then okay but I don't want to talk about forum moderation issues here lol

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > There's really no problem besides them not wanting to do it. They could simply make the weapon be stronger when equipped along with the spec and allow the profession has a whole to use it once unlocked [make it a final unlock in order to make it a bit more fair].

> > >

> > > Most of these weapons would already be buffed by the current talents in the elite specs they came with, meaning they're less optimal on their own without that elite spec. Take the deadeye rifle for example, which then can't get the stealth on evade anymore if you don't spec Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Yet still you could make some pretty interesting builds with all the new weapons and that's exactly what I would like. Yet Anet isn't a Studio that seems to be able to step outside of their comfort zone. They rather keep everything the same, so that even in 5 years, if there still is a GW2 officila server running, you have still the same amount of weapons and sklills available per build as you have now.

> > >

> > > More and more I get the feeling that GW2 is prepared for, or already in "hibernation mode", while the studio is working on other projects and sucks the rest of the money out of the slowly declining playerbase.

> >

> > m8 are you drunk? just because anet wants to keep power creep in check you think "lol, gam ded"?

> >

> >

>

> There's no power creep with enabling you to get different weapons lol.

> It's not like you get to have now another weapon swap or another 2 hand weapon at the same time. Now that would be power creep.

>

> Adding additional choices for build is adding more complexity and makes balancing harder, which I btw wrote as an argument against it

 

This has been covered in the past, and you are directly contradicting yourself in this very post.

 

Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

 

Let's look at a few examples though:

Thief - Daredevils who are very evasive would love to be able to use Rifles to soften targets up, then switch to their powerful staff melee weapons. No power creep here.

Mesmer - let's combine Mirage axe with chronomancer shield. Can someone say alacrity on mirage or even more condi pressure on chrono?

Revenant - Herald buffs with Shortbow from renegade, to make sure that we can get condi damage at range AND permanent fury, might, switness and survival

Guardian - axe is strait up an improvement over sword, as in probably the most strait upgrade between any weapon sets out there.

 

and those are just off the top of my head. Not even getting into issues like warrior or engineer where you now would have to create more weapon skills for each specialization.

 

It's power creep, even if you might understand this.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

 

> Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

>

 

Even the base weapons are not en-par and certainly many of the elite spec weapons are also worse or better than base spec wepaons. Some wepoans have niche use, some weapons dwarf others in WvW, SPvP/Roaming, Raids, open world PvE. That was always the case. GW2 wepaons are certainly not "en-par" when you take right now one class and look at the weapons available elite spec or not.

 

Saying that it would be a requirement that the different elite spec weapons would then immediately be on the same level as the base weapons? Yeah, would be ideal right, we all know that, but it won't happen, it isn't the case right now without that additional choice and it probably wouldn't be that way after getting more weapon choices. Also for the third time in a row. There's nothing inherently that comes with elite spec weapons as another choice that leads to powercreep.

 

Adding new weapons to choose from is called adding "Horizontal Progression". It's not "Vertical Progression" which comes indeed in most cases inherently with "Powercreep". However adding new weapon choices is nothing that builds on top but adds another thing beside.

 

Powercreep comes only through bad balancing, when you add something that ties into another existing system and since balancing gets harder with the complexity of the talents and weapons etc. maybe there will be a powercreep. Again, balancing this stuff is the problem. And as I said, Anet has imo in no way the will to put that extrra effort into that sector of the game right now.

 

They are busy with, well.... you've already read my "rant" comment.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

> >

>

> Even the base weapons are not en-par and certainly many of the elite spec weapons are also worse or better than base spec wepaons. Some wepoans have niche use, some weapons dwarf others in WvW, SPvP/Roaming, Raids, open world PvE. That was always the case. GW2 wepaons are certainly not "en-par" when you take right now one class and look at the weapons available elite spec or not.

>

> Saying that it would be a requirement that the different elite spec weapons would then immediately be on the same level as the base weapons? Yeah, would be ideal right, we all know that, but it won't happen, it isn't the case right now without that additional choice and it probably wouldn't be that way after getting more weapon choices. Also for the third time in a row. There's nothing inherently that comes with elite spec weapons as another choice that leads to powercreep.

>

> Adding new weapons to choose from is called adding "Horizontal Progression". It's not "Vertical Progression" which comes indeed in most cases inherently with "Powercreep". However adding new weapon choices is nothing that builds on top but adds another thing beside.

>

> Powercreep comes only through bad balancing, when you add something that ties into another existing system and since balancing gets harder with the complexity of the talents and weapons etc. maybe there will be a powercreep. Again, balancing this stuff is the problem. And as I said, Anet has imo in no way the will to put that extrra effort into that sector of the game right now.

>

> They are busy with, well.... you've already read my "rant" comment.

 

I gave you very specific examples which clearly show that access to more than 1 elite specialization weapon would already causes imbalance. Your theory crafting is flawed on many levels.

 

Saying that elite specialization weapons could be horizontal progression is skin to saying elite specializations are horizontal progression. Both is not true and I will not start speculating if it could be true. After 4+ years of elite specializations this myth has been debunked.

 

As is right now, nearly every elite specialization weapon is more powerful to their base counter parts in at least some part of the game, many in multiple. That is by design. It can easily be observed when making one self familiar with enough builds. You might not see this, but it is a fact.

 

Now Arenanet could re-balance the elite specialization weapons, but then we are back to: this causes a lot more balance issues, which is another argument as to why this will never happen.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> >

> > > Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

> > >

> >

> > Even the base weapons are not en-par and certainly many of the elite spec weapons are also worse or better than base spec wepaons. Some wepoans have niche use, some weapons dwarf others in WvW, SPvP/Roaming, Raids, open world PvE. That was always the case. GW2 wepaons are certainly not "en-par" when you take right now one class and look at the weapons available elite spec or not.

> >

> > Saying that it would be a requirement that the different elite spec weapons would then immediately be on the same level as the base weapons? Yeah, would be ideal right, we all know that, but it won't happen, it isn't the case right now without that additional choice and it probably wouldn't be that way after getting more weapon choices. Also for the third time in a row. There's nothing inherently that comes with elite spec weapons as another choice that leads to powercreep.

> >

> > Adding new weapons to choose from is called adding "Horizontal Progression". It's not "Vertical Progression" which comes indeed in most cases inherently with "Powercreep". However adding new weapon choices is nothing that builds on top but adds another thing beside.

> >

> > Powercreep comes only through bad balancing, when you add something that ties into another existing system and since balancing gets harder with the complexity of the talents and weapons etc. maybe there will be a powercreep. Again, balancing this stuff is the problem. And as I said, Anet has imo in no way the will to put that extrra effort into that sector of the game right now.

> >

> > They are busy with, well.... you've already read my "rant" comment.

>

> I gave you very specific examples which clearly show that access to more than 1 elite specialization weapon would already causes imbalance. Your theory crafting is flawed on many levels.

>

> Saying that elite specialization weapons could be horizontal progression is skin to saying elite specializations are horizontal progression. Both is not true and I will not start speculating if it could be true. After 4+ years of elite specializations this myth has been debunked.

>

> As is right now, nearly every elite specialization weapon is more powerful to their base counter parts in at least some part of the game, many in multiple. That is by design. It can easily be observed when making one self familiar with enough builds. You might not see this, but it is a fact.

>

> Now Arenanet could re-balance the elite specialization weapons, but then we are back to: this causes a lot more balance issues, which is another argument as to why this will never happen.

 

Wow, really absolutely wrong. Sry.

 

Very basic example for "Vertical Progression":

Every expac your character grows a new arm

Every expac you can wield an additional weapon on top of the old ones

Every weapon activates its respective skills when you activat your 1st combat skill

 

That is Vertical. Meaning, that sole intend is to make you stronger.

 

What is horizontal? Example:

You can only ride with one mount at a time

Every Expac you get a new mount

Every mount gives you a different way of crossing terrain

 

That is Horizontal. The sole intend is to give you different choices to do the same thing in a different way, not to make you more powerful than before.

 

Now what happens if these mount movement skills get improperly balanced? When the newes Horse mount has a low cd super speed buff that makes you invulnearble on top of it? Yeah. Then you can get powercreep. But that's because of balancing issues, not because the way the entire system beneath it was set up that way.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > >

> > > > Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Even the base weapons are not en-par and certainly many of the elite spec weapons are also worse or better than base spec wepaons. Some wepoans have niche use, some weapons dwarf others in WvW, SPvP/Roaming, Raids, open world PvE. That was always the case. GW2 wepaons are certainly not "en-par" when you take right now one class and look at the weapons available elite spec or not.

> > >

> > > Saying that it would be a requirement that the different elite spec weapons would then immediately be on the same level as the base weapons? Yeah, would be ideal right, we all know that, but it won't happen, it isn't the case right now without that additional choice and it probably wouldn't be that way after getting more weapon choices. Also for the third time in a row. There's nothing inherently that comes with elite spec weapons as another choice that leads to powercreep.

> > >

> > > Adding new weapons to choose from is called adding "Horizontal Progression". It's not "Vertical Progression" which comes indeed in most cases inherently with "Powercreep". However adding new weapon choices is nothing that builds on top but adds another thing beside.

> > >

> > > Powercreep comes only through bad balancing, when you add something that ties into another existing system and since balancing gets harder with the complexity of the talents and weapons etc. maybe there will be a powercreep. Again, balancing this stuff is the problem. And as I said, Anet has imo in no way the will to put that extrra effort into that sector of the game right now.

> > >

> > > They are busy with, well.... you've already read my "rant" comment.

> >

> > I gave you very specific examples which clearly show that access to more than 1 elite specialization weapon would already causes imbalance. Your theory crafting is flawed on many levels.

> >

> > Saying that elite specialization weapons could be horizontal progression is skin to saying elite specializations are horizontal progression. Both is not true and I will not start speculating if it could be true. After 4+ years of elite specializations this myth has been debunked.

> >

> > As is right now, nearly every elite specialization weapon is more powerful to their base counter parts in at least some part of the game, many in multiple. That is by design. It can easily be observed when making one self familiar with enough builds. You might not see this, but it is a fact.

> >

> > Now Arenanet could re-balance the elite specialization weapons, but then we are back to: this causes a lot more balance issues, which is another argument as to why this will never happen.

>

> Wow, really absolutely wrong. Sry.

>

> Very basic example for "Vertical Progression":

> Every expac your character grows a new arm

> Every expac you can wield an additional weapon on top of the old ones

> Every weapon activates its respective skills when you activat your 1st combat skill

>

> That is Vertical. Meaning, that sole intend is to make you stronger.

>

> What is horizontal? Example:

> You can only ride with one mount at a time

> Every Expac you get a new mount

> Every mount gives you a different way of crossing terrain

>

> That is Horizontal. The sole intend is to give you different choices to do the same thing in a different way, not to make you more powerful than before.

>

> Now what happens if these mount movement skills get improperly balanced? When the newes Horse mount has a low cd super speed buff that makes you invulnearble on top of it? Yeah. Then you can get powercreep. But that's because of balancing issues, not because the way the entire system beneath it was set up that way.

>

 

Nice theory crafting, but you fail to address the live examples I gave you. Again, all you are talking about is theory which does not apply because in game realities are different.

 

I understand the difference between horizontal and vertical progression. You do not understand that your theory does not apply to how the game currently is balanced and how the different in game aspects synergise.

 

The in game reality is this:

Elite specialization weapons are more powerful than the base weapons.

 

Getting access to multiple of them means power creep versus the status quo. Done.

 

EDIT: small change for clarification.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Alternative or meaningful additional choice automatically implies that the weapons need to be en-par at least with the base weapons. Now if we pair this knowledge with the fact that elite spec weapons are almost always superior to their baseline counterparts (just about any meta build uses its respective new weapon), the notion of this being balanced is plain wrong and incorrect.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Even the base weapons are not en-par and certainly many of the elite spec weapons are also worse or better than base spec wepaons. Some wepoans have niche use, some weapons dwarf others in WvW, SPvP/Roaming, Raids, open world PvE. That was always the case. GW2 wepaons are certainly not "en-par" when you take right now one class and look at the weapons available elite spec or not.

> > > >

> > > > Saying that it would be a requirement that the different elite spec weapons would then immediately be on the same level as the base weapons? Yeah, would be ideal right, we all know that, but it won't happen, it isn't the case right now without that additional choice and it probably wouldn't be that way after getting more weapon choices. Also for the third time in a row. There's nothing inherently that comes with elite spec weapons as another choice that leads to powercreep.

> > > >

> > > > Adding new weapons to choose from is called adding "Horizontal Progression". It's not "Vertical Progression" which comes indeed in most cases inherently with "Powercreep". However adding new weapon choices is nothing that builds on top but adds another thing beside.

> > > >

> > > > Powercreep comes only through bad balancing, when you add something that ties into another existing system and since balancing gets harder with the complexity of the talents and weapons etc. maybe there will be a powercreep. Again, balancing this stuff is the problem. And as I said, Anet has imo in no way the will to put that extrra effort into that sector of the game right now.

> > > >

> > > > They are busy with, well.... you've already read my "rant" comment.

> > >

> > > I gave you very specific examples which clearly show that access to more than 1 elite specialization weapon would already causes imbalance. Your theory crafting is flawed on many levels.

> > >

> > > Saying that elite specialization weapons could be horizontal progression is skin to saying elite specializations are horizontal progression. Both is not true and I will not start speculating if it could be true. After 4+ years of elite specializations this myth has been debunked.

> > >

> > > As is right now, nearly every elite specialization weapon is more powerful to their base counter parts in at least some part of the game, many in multiple. That is by design. It can easily be observed when making one self familiar with enough builds. You might not see this, but it is a fact.

> > >

> > > Now Arenanet could re-balance the elite specialization weapons, but then we are back to: this causes a lot more balance issues, which is another argument as to why this will never happen.

> >

> > Wow, really absolutely wrong. Sry.

> >

> > Very basic example for "Vertical Progression":

> > Every expac your character grows a new arm

> > Every expac you can wield an additional weapon on top of the old ones

> > Every weapon activates its respective skills when you activat your 1st combat skill

> >

> > That is Vertical. Meaning, that sole intend is to make you stronger.

> >

> > What is horizontal? Example:

> > You can only ride with one mount at a time

> > Every Expac you get a new mount

> > Every mount gives you a different way of crossing terrain

> >

> > That is Horizontal. The sole intend is to give you different choices to do the same thing in a different way, not to make you more powerful than before.

> >

> > Now what happens if these mount movement skills get improperly balanced? When the newes Horse mount has a low cd super speed buff that makes you invulnearble on top of it? Yeah. Then you can get powercreep. But that's because of balancing issues, not because the way the entire system beneath it was set up that way.

> >

>

> Nice theory crafting, but you fail to address the live examples I gave you. Again, all you are talking about is theory which does not apply because in game realities are different.

>

> I understand the difference between horizontal and vertical progression. You do not udnerstand that your theory does not apply to how the game currently is balanced and how the different in game aspects synergise.

>

> The in game reality is this:

> Elite specialization weapons are more powerful than the base weapons.

>

> Getting access to multiple of them means power creep. Done.

 

And you seem to not read what I've wrote. You continuosly want to argue about the one thing that we already agree on. "This will not work in the game".

 

And the reason is that Anet is incapable for whatever reason, good or bad ones, doesn't matter, to balance it without getting powercreep through adding additional weapon choices.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Gotta ask.., If this is considered ‘necroing’ then when will people stop asking others to use the ‘search function’ because threads have been made before?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Gotta ask.., If this is considered ‘necroing’ then when will people stop asking others to use the ‘search function’ because threads have been made before?

 

Simple, this is a done issue. Any person with some rational thought and ability to understand complex relations will know why elite specialization weapons are restricted given the games current balance. Necroing a thread like this is of no value since no new information has emerged or made available by Arenanet.

 

Nothing on this issue has changed, as such there is no point in bringing it up again besides forum clutter and trolling.