Outdated

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Till anet adjusts the interaction between armor and power, none. Going bunker will just result in you dying.

> >

> > Yet people still complain about trailblazer mirages as one of the most OP roamers. Does that means a bunker is both dead and OP until observed?

>

> You can't really call trailblazer mirage a bunker.

>

> Going bunker, druid or guardian for example, you stack lot of toughness, healing power while giving up a tons of damage.

> The enemy won't be able to burst you down, but yiu at the same time won't be able to kill your opponent and he can just run away and ignore you.

>

> Trailblazer mirage has crazy armor to hold power builds pretty well and on top he doesn't giving up damage at all, and still able to burst you down while tanking, that's why the spec is so noob friendly and too overtuned.

> Low risk high reward gameplay.

 

Call them what you will.

 

People argue that toughness should be zero and is meaningless for roaming, yet at the same time we see complaints that toughness builds are OP when roaming.

 

Makes sense.

 

Your comment on guard and druid is laughable, condi guard can burst better than condi mirage and druid sustain roamers are notorious.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Till anet adjusts the interaction between armor and power, none. Going bunker will just result in you dying.

> > >

> > > Yet people still complain about trailblazer mirages as one of the most OP roamers. Does that means a bunker is both dead and OP until observed?

> >

> > You can't really call trailblazer mirage a bunker.

> >

> > Going bunker, druid or guardian for example, you stack lot of toughness, healing power while giving up a tons of damage.

> > The enemy won't be able to burst you down, but yiu at the same time won't be able to kill your opponent and he can just run away and ignore you.

> >

> > Trailblazer mirage has crazy armor to hold power builds pretty well and on top he doesn't giving up damage at all, and still able to burst you down while tanking, that's why the spec is so noob friendly and too overtuned.

> > Low risk high reward gameplay.

>

> Call them what you will.

>

> People argue that toughness should be zero and is meaningless for roaming, yet at the same time we see complaints that toughness builds are OP when roaming.

>

> Makes sense.

>

> Your comment on guard and druid is laughable, condi guard can burst better than condi mirage and druid sustain roamers are notorious.

 

Yeah burn guard is top number1 roaming build. Don't make me laugh instead.

 

Condi mirage can spam almost nonstop a series of 20 evades, plus confusion torment burning stacks in few seconds if you are not careful.

 

Druid is a brainless bunker build, but he can't burst you down, if the fight last long the better it is for the druid and it's sustained damage.

You have to burst him quicky and just run away because the fight will last ages.

 

Burn guard has zero defenses, 1 single condi who can be cleansed so easily, mirage has 3 or 4 cover conditions, or he caught you without cleanses and he burst you down, or he dies in 2 seconds as well.

[Syprus Soulslayer.1640]

There’s no set Number of toughness to run. There’s too many variables involving class, gear, traits, and abilities. Some classes require more surviveability than others due to lack of condition cleanses, dodges, stealth, etc. straight toughness will do little to nothing without the vitality, condition cleanes, and other tools to survive a fight. What I find interesting is that a lot of people only run a mix of 1-2 different gear sets when there’s endless combinations available. learn your class, set a goal, and build your gear accordingly. Running cookie cutter builds with 1 gearset will yield cookie cutter results ??‍♂️. Figure out your play style and class first then experiment with gearsets to see what works for you.

[meri.9187]

The meta in roaming is-

 

**first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

 

**second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

 

**third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

 

**fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

 

*Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

 

Wait isnt this the same as the first point? I see so many roamers skillfully outplaying people 5v1.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Dagger.2035" said:

> > Another option would be to use a more defensive trait line like Retribution since Versed in Stone offers protection and could help you recover after the initial burst. Other options could include using Rolling Mists so you can use less Precison, using sigil of energy, or steal health on crit food.

>

> Of course I run the precision trait which double up the fury crit chance to 40%.

> But giving up devastation for retribution I lose quite a bit of damage output, and rev double sword shines at quick bursts.

> If I give up even the damage will be a less optimal build don't you think?

 

So you want to be tanky AND hit like a truck?

Those glasscanon soulbeasts had to do the same choice and they melt like snow to the sun.

 

Thieves, mirages and spellbreaker are another topic, they can go full glass but because their active and passive damage mitigation mechanics (stealth, evades, invulnerability) they are tanky AND hit like a truck.

 

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> How can you survive first backstab?

is that even possible? I have a video posted around where a backstab did 21K to a 2800 armor. From stealth. And went back to stealth to stomp. Not even full glass DE. Fun fun times.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> The meta in roaming is-

>

> **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

>

> **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

>

> **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

>

> **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

>

> *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

 

But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

 

When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

 

I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

 

The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

 

Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

[meri.9187]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > The meta in roaming is-

> >

> > **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

> >

> > **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

> >

> > **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

> >

> > **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

> >

> > *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

>

> But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

> If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

>

> When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

>

> I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

>

> The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

> They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

>

> Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

 

True fact. They're builds oriented for cheesing 1v1 duels and surviving outnumbered, giving you the ability to kill those players over time if they're bad.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > The meta in roaming is-

> > >

> > > **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

> > >

> > > **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

> > >

> > > **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

> > >

> > > **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

> > >

> > > *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

> >

> > But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

> > If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

> >

> > When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

> >

> > I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

> >

> > The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

> > They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

> >

> > Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

>

> True fact. They're builds oriented for cheesing 1v1 duels and surviving outnumbered, giving you the ability to kill those players over time if they're bad.

 

So... instakill builds are OP when roaming and everyone complain about them, people make high sustain builds to counter them and then they are called "builds oriented for cheesing 1v1" in turn.

 

Also toughness doesnt matter yet toughness still matters but only if you are also a toughness build in which case your toughness doesnt matter, only the enemies toughness.

 

I think? :/

[meri.9187]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > > The meta in roaming is-

> > > >

> > > > **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

> > > >

> > > > **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

> > > >

> > > > **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

> > > >

> > > > **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

> > > >

> > > > *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

> > >

> > > But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

> > > If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

> > >

> > > When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

> > >

> > > I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

> > >

> > > The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

> > > They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

> > >

> > > Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

> >

> > True fact. They're builds oriented for cheesing 1v1 duels and surviving outnumbered, giving you the ability to kill those players over time if they're bad.

>

> So... instakill builds are OP when roaming and everyone complain about them, people make high sustain builds to counter them and then they are called "builds oriented for cheesing 1v1" in turn.

>

> Also toughness doesnt matter yet toughness still matters but only if you are also a toughness build in which case your toughness doesnt matter, only the enemies toughness.

>

> I think? :/

 

If you want to twist my words, you can. High sustain, tanky builds that can still put out large amounts of damage are the biggest problem with roaming to me, so please don't put words in my mouth by saying I think instakill builds are OP.

[SoV.5139]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"Dagger.2035" said:

> > > Another option would be to use a more defensive trait line like Retribution since Versed in Stone offers protection and could help you recover after the initial burst. Other options could include using Rolling Mists so you can use less Precison, using sigil of energy, or steal health on crit food.

> >

> > Of course I run the precision trait which double up the fury crit chance to 40%.

> > But giving up devastation for retribution I lose quite a bit of damage output, and rev double sword shines at quick bursts.

> > If I give up even the damage will be a less optimal build don't you think?

>

> So you want to be tanky AND hit like a truck?

> Those glasscanon soulbeasts had to do the same choice and they melt like snow to the sun.

>

> Thieves, mirages and spellbreaker are another topic, they can go full glass but because their active and passive damage mitigation mechanics (stealth, evades, invulnerability) they are tanky AND hit like a truck.

>

> > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > How can you survive first backstab?

> is that even possible? I have a video posted around where a backstab did 21K to a 2800 armor. From stealth. And went back to stealth to stomp. Not even full glass DE. Fun fun times.

 

Soulbeast has a few invulns as well, with one passive traited. They can face tank like a warrior in zerk gear by pushing one button every 3-4 seconds to cover for a failed burst, then set up for another burst.

[Syprus Soulslayer.1640]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > The meta in roaming is-

> >

> > **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

> >

> > **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

> >

> > **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

> >

> > **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

> >

> > *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

>

> But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

> If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

>

> When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

>

> I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

>

> The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

> They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

>

> Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

 

Ever heard of Valkyrie / Caviler gear or intelligence Sigils?? Fun Fact: Caviler gear will give you more ferocity than a 4 stat set ( Marauders, Grieveing, etc ) Valkyrie is literally berserker with vitality instead of precision ( same power and ferocity values as berserker ). If your class has access to lots of fury there’s no need to really run anything north of 30-35% precision because you’re fury will automatically boost you over 50%. Throw in intelligence sigils: on swap next 3 Attacks critical chance 100% 9s cooldown ( especially if you swap frequently or trigger weapon swap VIA Kits etc. ) and its like running a full berserkers / Marauders with the added tankyness / surviveability. You also might want to take a look at your individual traits some classes have traits that will give you bonus stats usually converted in % base off another stat, it might be wise to play into those to maximize your + attribute potential. This is probably what those Tanky / bruiser builds are doing in order to still do decent damage.

 

I almost forgot, there’s a utility item that adds +150 toughness sold in southsun cove if you fancy keeping your power gear and want to add a dab of armor.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"ventusthunder.5067" said:

> > > The meta in roaming is-

> > >

> > > **first**, about numbers. If you have less, you're likely going to lose.

> > >

> > > **second**, about build counters. One should usually be able to determine the winner of a 1v1 fight just based on classes and counters. Generally, to get around class counters, one player needs to be significantly better than the other. If this does not apply...

> > >

> > > **third**, in power duels, about how anti-power the players build for.*

> > >

> > > **fourth**, about skill and outplaying your opponent.

> > >

> > > *Note: The builds coming out recently like 3k armor sword/sword rev, perma protection soulbeast, the former disenchanter mirage/chrono, and 3k armor pistol/shield holosmith with double elixir S (the worst offender imo) are complete anti-power plays, intended to make the game easier for these players as they can still deal a high fraction of the damage a zerk build would do while increasing survivability tremendously. I cannot speak for condi as I don't play condi and thus don't duel condi vs. condi.

> >

> > But the damage sacrificed is still there by doing so in a power build.

> > If you find another high toughness build with sustain, if you have 3k armor as well you won't be able to burst down the enemy.

> >

> > When i had my holo full marauder and zerk with strength runes (very glassy no dura runes) sometimes i couldn't burst down those druids or other sustain classes, so imagine if i was running dura runes plus some cav or soldier trinkets to achieve 3k armor, no way I could kill the enemy since i was struggling in mara/zerk.

> >

> > I have a full zerk strength warrior as well and sometimes those 3 adrenaline eviscerates crits for 3k on some guy (maybe on top of high toughness they have protection too, but still), if i run dura and mara probably i wont even crit 2k.

> >

> > The only builds who give up almost zero damage are stupid condi trailblazer or dire builds.

> > They get lot of armor without losing damage which is condi.

> >

> > Doing so in a power build you lose or power or precision or ferocity in almost any case by deciding to stack up armor.

>

> Ever heard of Valkyrie / Caviler gear or intelligence Sigils?? Fun Fact: Caviler gear will give you more ferocity than a 4 stat set ( Marauders, Grieveing, etc ) Valkyrie is literally berserker with vitality instead of precision ( same power and ferocity values as berserker ). If your class has access to lots of fury there’s no need to really run anything north of 30-35% precision because you’re fury will automatically boost you over 50%. Throw in intelligence sigils: on swap next 3 Attacks critical chance 100% 9s cooldown ( especially if you swap frequently or trigger weapon swap VIA Kits etc. ) and its like running a full berserkers / Marauders with the added tankyness / surviveability. You also might want to take a look at your individual traits some classes have traits that will give you bonus stats usually converted in % base off another stat, it might be wise to play into those to maximize your + attribute potential. This is probably what those Tanky / bruiser builds are doing in order to still do decent damage.

>

> I almost forgot, there’s a utility item that adds +150 toughness sold in southsun cove if you fancy keeping your power gear and want to add a dab of armor.

 

You can stack up valkyrie or cavalier only on classes with specific crit chance raised up by a trait, for example radiance guardian or revenant.

 

But cavalier for example has toughness had main stat and power abd ferocity second, you gain lot of armor and sustain, but don't think the damage loss is that small, if you find a better bunker damage build than yours, you won't be able to burst down your enemy.

 

If you use the +150 toughness utility, you give up superior sharpening stone, and that's a huge power loss.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> if you find a better bunker damage build than yours, you won't be able to burst down your enemy.

 

If you find a better sustain build than yours and yours is designed to kill zerkers/marauders, you wouldnt be able to kill them on zerkers/marauders either so thats a moot point.

[Syprus Soulslayer.1640]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > if you find a better bunker damage build than yours, you won't be able to burst down your enemy.

>

> If you find a better sustain build than yours and yours is designed to kill zerkers/marauders, you wouldnt be able to kill them on zerkers/marauders either so thats a moot point.

 

That’s kinda my point, there’s a build for every flavor. You might win / survive most fights but there’s usually 1 or 2 comps / builds that you won’t be able to kill or that will kill you. Everyone has an Achilles heel.

 

 

>

> You can stack up valkyrie or cavalier only on classes with specific crit chance raised up by a trait, for example radiance guardian or revenant.

>

> But cavalier for example has toughness had main stat and power abd ferocity second, you gain lot of armor and sustain, but don't think the damage loss is that small, if you find a better bunker damage build than yours, you won't be able to burst down your enemy.

>

 

You can add small pieces of Valk / Cav - different armor pieces and accessories have different values and % differences in stat combos. I’m just auggesting to look at mixing gear not running 1-2 entire sets. Sometimes adding 1-2 pieces of some other gear might actually be worth it. Again it’s all relative to play style and how successful / unsuccessful you are currently.

 

> If you use the +150 toughness utility, you give up superior sharpening stone, and that's a huge power loss.

 

Depends on how much your current utility item is giving you. If the total is less or = to 150 power or whatever stat you’re currently getting that would make the armor potion a better choice for maximizing +attributes especially if surviving high burst is a problem or if you’re running traits that convert toughness into something else. ( unless you don’t like running armor at all ) I’m just throwing some suggestions out to the people who are having issues out in WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > if you find a better bunker damage build than yours, you won't be able to burst down your enemy.

> >

> > If you find a better sustain build than yours and yours is designed to kill zerkers/marauders, you wouldnt be able to kill them on zerkers/marauders either so thats a moot point.

>

> That’s kinda my point, there’s a build for every flavor. You might win / survive most fights but there’s usually 1 or 2 comps / builds that you won’t be able to kill or that will kill you. Everyone has an Achilles heel.

 

Which is technically the point of sustain/bruisers in contrast to one-trick ponies such as condi bunkers of full power dps, yes. You wear big boots. When you reach the point where you can safely say "I cant beat that player" then its more often than not a case skill, circumstance and luck. The build they are running on becomes a minor factor. The class itself often seem to be worse since people have no idea how to fight some classes regardless of their builds.