Vayne.8563 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > You may not have reacted that way, but it's entirely doubtful you know anyone who died while in the middle of fighting a dragon. At first, he had anger, a lot of anger, and that anger was directed at the dragon. The dragon was then killed. But only after that, in the first chapter of Season 3, do we get to Eir's memorial. My reading on it is that this is all undealt with things that come up because of the memorial for Eir. It's not unreasonable And it's certainly not a 180. > > > > Don't you remember the anger at having to wait to face the dragon while we were going to Rata Novus? Brahm didn't want to go, he just wanted to lash out. When the dragon was alive, he had a target. When that was over, he didn't. Presumably though, he still had some anger left. > > > > I lost my father when I was pretty young and I remember being quite angry and doing quite a bit of unreasonable things at that time. Had there been something to focus that anger on, that suddenly went away, I'm not sure my anger wouldn't have transferred to something else. Presumably Mordremoth's death wasn't enough to sate his rage. > > Yes, but you are a human, I lost my granddad when i was young as well, i was at the time much closer to him than i was to my own father, and i reacted nothing like how your reacted, or like people would expect someone to react, i didnt cry, i didnt get angry, i just sat there in silence for a long time, went for a very long walk and was then fine, everyone reacts differently to death. > > This is a *Norn* though, not a Human, with an entire different outlook on life and death than ours, making them react as a human would is not fair to the Norn as a species and indicates lazing writing as well. As to the anger at having to wait, no i dont recall that. I was to busy exploring and learning things around the map to be angry, i didnt feel anger when they killed Eir either, i *Did* get angry when they decided to turn Braham into what amounts to a young human at the beginning of LS3 however, id feel the same anger if they decided to turn Rytlock into a coward. It goes against the characters background. > > Further when you have a lore set up that indicates that Norn view death as a good thing so long as their legend will be remembered you cant make the primary norn of the story act in the manner they had Braham act, its not how a Norn would have reacted which is my entire point and yes this is all opinion, but i hate what they do to their own lore with stuff like this. Nope, Norn do reaction angrily sometimes when things happen. They get sullen or they get angry. They fight. They drink. They brood. That's a norn trait, even if some humans also do that. So I'm not really sure what your point is. Brahms reaction is fine to me. And nothing you've said has changed that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Einsof.1457" said: > sniper was fine...jeez. god forbid theres a bit of challenge in the game here and there. i did it first try and im pretty bad...its not hard. Running is challenging and i struggle with its dificulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > > > > > > > I think we ought to look at Braham’s Past as well. Borje was a Legendary norn, however he is hardly talked about. He didn't die a heroic death like Norn traditionally do. Borje died of sickness. > > > > > > > > > > That happened when Braham was a child. It is Norn culture to celebrate and boast in glorious death and creating a legend. What did his father have? No glorious death. I imagine this traumatized Braham. A mother who abandoned him and a father who died to sickness. Did he have great Norn hero examples? Is he rebelling against his culture? Maybe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things that is missing in this conversation is that Norns are guided by the Spirit Animal and Eir and Braham are both guided by the Wolf Spirit. I refuse to believe that the death of Eir will have Braham throw away loyalty (wolf spirit sense) and start blaming the Commander. In fact, I expected that their bond would have been stronger after Eir's death since when there was no one else to help him in Cragstead, the Commander was there. His reaction was not even childish, it's simply insane. He lost his mind at the same time he lost his hair. > > > > > > > > Also in Season 1, he is very protective of Taimi, yet he abandoned her to pursuit Jormag while Taimi joins me inside a volcano. So much for that Wolf Spirit loyalty and pack mentality, I could've really use a healer that time. They've not only destroyed Braham, they've also destroyed the Norn culture. I mean, they've already destroyed the Eternal Alchemy by placing Asura in the Mist. So in a way, it is no surprise that they are now also destroying the Mist. > > > > > > > > Another missing piece is that Destiny's Edge mission was to kill Kral. So if Eir had any unfinished business, that would be Kral and not Jormag. For Braham to insist on taking Jormag first made zero sense. > > > > > > > > Then the fact that he suddenly get mushy shows that he is not the same Norn. Someone in game kidnapped the real Braham and replaced him with this impostor...probably a Mordred copy similar to what happened to Logan in the Maguuma. I like to believe that so the real Braham can come back take his rightful place...a pain in my as...side. > > > > > > You may have something to learn about wolves. There are plenty of young male wolves that don't have a pack at all, that roam around as loners. They're either part of a pack that's destroyed, or they are driven out of a pack by a dominant male. Anyway worshipping a spirit of the wild as a young man doesn't insure either perfect behavior nor does it insure obeying exactly what you think is the perfect way to be. Do you know what happens to religious humans who experience an unfair death? Often they rebel against their very religion. They strike out at God. They believe less or put less stock into previously held beliefs. And after a time, sometimes they come around. > > > > > > > That is not Braham at all. Braham grew up with his clan in Cragstead and not a lone wolf. So this characteristic is not even close tho who Braham is. > > > > > How old do you think Brahm is. He's just a young man. Maybe 19. Lots of 19 year old humans I know are pretty unsettled at the best of times, never mind what Brahm is going through. His warband, if he has one, is Rox. That's the person he ends up traveling with. While he throws in with us, there's always been some friction if you're looking carefully. Are you saying a young brash wolf can't challenge the head of a pack. > > > > > > > Despite his age, he'd shown leadership in appealing to his mother and Whitebear to help Cragstead. He'd shown his wolf affinity there by inviting the commander to help him when him mother and Whitebear turned him down. That leadership is the quality the Braham has despite his age show maturity and the sense of responsibility and I can also see that he is proud of that quality. > > > > > This reasoning is all too reasonable and logical to actually represent living, breathing beings. After what he's been through he was bound to fall apart. Add to that the norn tendency to react in a more violent/hostile manner in the first place, I mean he's not human after all, would indicate that when he's stressed he might well challenge an authority figure. > > > > > > > Yes, logical and reasonable for humans. Also, it seems that you have this wrong notion that Norn has a tendency to react in violent/hostile manner. If you have played GW1, it took a lot, I mean a lot, of convincing to get them to do anything close to violence or hostile. That passivity was passed on for 250 years. The only time a Norn reacts violently is when they are corrupted by the Dragon's magic. Apathy is best to describe the Norn, not violent nor hostile. Even in the face of death, they treat the situation like a game of Rugby. All fun and game even if someone loses an arm. > > > > > I'm not saying Brahm is great or heroic in his reactions. But there's certainly enough in the story to indicate that he's both angry and impatient and that he's on the verge of finally having some sort of relationship with his mother which is then stolen from him. People in real life have reacted far more strongly than this. I mean what has he done really? > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing Braham to humans instead of actually taking into account that he is a Norn, who grew up in a culture different from humans and who has a world view that is also different from humans. > > > > > Struck off on his own? Insulted us a few times. Gotten angry when we formed a new guild (which I thought was relatively reasonable anyway). People are acting like Brahm has eaten babies. He hasn't. He's just acted out a bit. He's been sullen, ornery, rebellious and outspoken. I was that way at 19 myself. You know many teenagers that don't think they have all the answers? Because I don't. > > > > > > > All that are not the characteristic of someone who grew up in a Norn community. > > > > > He thinks in terms of direct conflict, much the way a norn would. Killing Mordremoth didn't sate his desire for vengence, his mother's "funeral" probably brought it all to the surface again, and so he's doing what many norn would do...he's going hunting. He's grown up with the legends of the Tooth after all. It's something he can do And now we're going and telling him not to. > > > > > > > You got again the wrong notion that Norns thinks in terms of direct conflict when in fact, their very culture tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict. I refuse to believe that Braham grew up with out anyone teaching him of the Norn culture. I mean, when the player first create a new Norn character, the player has to go through the trials which includes learning from the teachings of Raven. From that teachings, the Norn learns wisdom that somehow disappeared from Braham's mind because of his anger? That is hard to believe and even if this is the case, it shows that Braham is a weak character. The Braham that was introduced to us the first time around is not an uneducated and loner Norn. > > > > > So what did he do that was really so bad? > > > > > > > Nothing. What is bad is the writing trying to change who he really is, nor the writer not fully understanding who Braham is. > > > > > So far he hasn't actually attacked Mordremoth. He's shot a tooth and proved a theory. He's not obeyed us blindly. He resented us starting a new guild at his mother's memorial service, while he wasn't even there. Seriously, this whole thing is blow way out of proportion. > > > > > > Maybe if Brahm had physically attacked us, I'd say that's over the line (for humans anyway, maybe not for norn) but what we've seen? It's just Brahm being sullen and resentful. No matter what anyone says, it's not a complete 180. > > > > > > > I don't believe that it's a180 either. I believe that this is not the same Braham. Braham knows his belief and has his own world view, which are in contrast to the Commander, which made him unique. That Braham disappeared. > > > > > As for the Taimi thing, Taimi is growing up and as protective as he is, norn do respect individuality and people making their own decisions. Even in HOT she gave up her golem to progress the mission at great expense to herself. Sure she's young but she's also proven herself to be a valuable member of the team. I'm not sure why letting her go into a volcano in a protective suit is so out of character. > > > > If that is the case, why did he get angry at the Commander when she got kidnapped by Joko? In my opinion, if he is to get angry at anyone, it would be to the face on the mirror staring back at him. As a Commander, I needed him there but he abandoned us while throwing a hissy fit. If he is really concern about Taimi, which the real Braham was, he would not have left the group. > > > > Also, adding that Braham is afraid of spiders is just more salt to the wounds. Sure it was fun watching him squirm around spiders, but that is just pathetic. The writing making him a laughing stock of the episode. > > > > To me they introduced these characters as a replacement to the Destiny's Edge, that we should care about the. Then they will just recklessly ruin each of them with bad writing and editing makes me careless about them instead. If that is ArenaNet's goal, they surely is going towards that direction. They already made me not care about Taimi, I mean, what's the point? > > Oh I played Guild Wars 1, probably more than 99% of the population. You know, the place where norns at shrines didn't talk to you until you fought them. It wasn't hard to get norn to do anything at all, they simply liked to make their own choices. Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle. They're individualistic, not passive. They're trying to build their legends. Most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon, at least most norn warriors. > > You have your opinion but I strongly suspect it's colored by your dislike of other things. Norn are a warrior race who excel at fighting and they often get drunk and brawl. If you didn't pick up any of that from Guild Wars 1, I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about. Hell even in this game, there's you getting drunk at a moot, and getting into a brawl in your personal story options. > You have a very interesting understanding of violence and hostility. Yes, the Norns brawl and yes, the Norns want to make a legend of themselves -- those are not things done with violence or hostility. Reckless? yes, arrogant? yes, but violent or hostile? no. Hunting by no means violent or hostile. If you read the Edge of Destiny, how many Norns went with Eir to fight Jormag? Zip. She's the only Norn in Destiny's Edge. So the notion that "Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle" and "most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon" is categorically incorrect. Norn would rather drink than brawl. The Norns at the Shrine in GW1 are simply engaging in a friendly spar to test their strength, yet you view that as a violent or hostile response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we ought to look at Braham’s Past as well. Borje was a Legendary norn, however he is hardly talked about. He didn't die a heroic death like Norn traditionally do. Borje died of sickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > That happened when Braham was a child. It is Norn culture to celebrate and boast in glorious death and creating a legend. What did his father have? No glorious death. I imagine this traumatized Braham. A mother who abandoned him and a father who died to sickness. Did he have great Norn hero examples? Is he rebelling against his culture? Maybe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things that is missing in this conversation is that Norns are guided by the Spirit Animal and Eir and Braham are both guided by the Wolf Spirit. I refuse to believe that the death of Eir will have Braham throw away loyalty (wolf spirit sense) and start blaming the Commander. In fact, I expected that their bond would have been stronger after Eir's death since when there was no one else to help him in Cragstead, the Commander was there. His reaction was not even childish, it's simply insane. He lost his mind at the same time he lost his hair. > > > > > > > > > > Also in Season 1, he is very protective of Taimi, yet he abandoned her to pursuit Jormag while Taimi joins me inside a volcano. So much for that Wolf Spirit loyalty and pack mentality, I could've really use a healer that time. They've not only destroyed Braham, they've also destroyed the Norn culture. I mean, they've already destroyed the Eternal Alchemy by placing Asura in the Mist. So in a way, it is no surprise that they are now also destroying the Mist. > > > > > > > > > > Another missing piece is that Destiny's Edge mission was to kill Kral. So if Eir had any unfinished business, that would be Kral and not Jormag. For Braham to insist on taking Jormag first made zero sense. > > > > > > > > > > Then the fact that he suddenly get mushy shows that he is not the same Norn. Someone in game kidnapped the real Braham and replaced him with this impostor...probably a Mordred copy similar to what happened to Logan in the Maguuma. I like to believe that so the real Braham can come back take his rightful place...a pain in my as...side. > > > > > > > > You may have something to learn about wolves. There are plenty of young male wolves that don't have a pack at all, that roam around as loners. They're either part of a pack that's destroyed, or they are driven out of a pack by a dominant male. Anyway worshipping a spirit of the wild as a young man doesn't insure either perfect behavior nor does it insure obeying exactly what you think is the perfect way to be. Do you know what happens to religious humans who experience an unfair death? Often they rebel against their very religion. They strike out at God. They believe less or put less stock into previously held beliefs. And after a time, sometimes they come around. > > > > > > > > > > That is not Braham at all. Braham grew up with his clan in Cragstead and not a lone wolf. So this characteristic is not even close tho who Braham is. > > > > > > > How old do you think Brahm is. He's just a young man. Maybe 19. Lots of 19 year old humans I know are pretty unsettled at the best of times, never mind what Brahm is going through. His warband, if he has one, is Rox. That's the person he ends up traveling with. While he throws in with us, there's always been some friction if you're looking carefully. Are you saying a young brash wolf can't challenge the head of a pack. > > > > > > > > > > Despite his age, he'd shown leadership in appealing to his mother and Whitebear to help Cragstead. He'd shown his wolf affinity there by inviting the commander to help him when him mother and Whitebear turned him down. That leadership is the quality the Braham has despite his age show maturity and the sense of responsibility and I can also see that he is proud of that quality. > > > > > > > This reasoning is all too reasonable and logical to actually represent living, breathing beings. After what he's been through he was bound to fall apart. Add to that the norn tendency to react in a more violent/hostile manner in the first place, I mean he's not human after all, would indicate that when he's stressed he might well challenge an authority figure. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, logical and reasonable for humans. Also, it seems that you have this wrong notion that Norn has a tendency to react in violent/hostile manner. If you have played GW1, it took a lot, I mean a lot, of convincing to get them to do anything close to violence or hostile. That passivity was passed on for 250 years. The only time a Norn reacts violently is when they are corrupted by the Dragon's magic. Apathy is best to describe the Norn, not violent nor hostile. Even in the face of death, they treat the situation like a game of Rugby. All fun and game even if someone loses an arm. > > > > > > > I'm not saying Brahm is great or heroic in his reactions. But there's certainly enough in the story to indicate that he's both angry and impatient and that he's on the verge of finally having some sort of relationship with his mother which is then stolen from him. People in real life have reacted far more strongly than this. I mean what has he done really? > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing Braham to humans instead of actually taking into account that he is a Norn, who grew up in a culture different from humans and who has a world view that is also different from humans. > > > > > > > Struck off on his own? Insulted us a few times. Gotten angry when we formed a new guild (which I thought was relatively reasonable anyway). People are acting like Brahm has eaten babies. He hasn't. He's just acted out a bit. He's been sullen, ornery, rebellious and outspoken. I was that way at 19 myself. You know many teenagers that don't think they have all the answers? Because I don't. > > > > > > > > > > All that are not the characteristic of someone who grew up in a Norn community. > > > > > > > He thinks in terms of direct conflict, much the way a norn would. Killing Mordremoth didn't sate his desire for vengence, his mother's "funeral" probably brought it all to the surface again, and so he's doing what many norn would do...he's going hunting. He's grown up with the legends of the Tooth after all. It's something he can do And now we're going and telling him not to. > > > > > > > > > > You got again the wrong notion that Norns thinks in terms of direct conflict when in fact, their very culture tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict. I refuse to believe that Braham grew up with out anyone teaching him of the Norn culture. I mean, when the player first create a new Norn character, the player has to go through the trials which includes learning from the teachings of Raven. From that teachings, the Norn learns wisdom that somehow disappeared from Braham's mind because of his anger? That is hard to believe and even if this is the case, it shows that Braham is a weak character. The Braham that was introduced to us the first time around is not an uneducated and loner Norn. > > > > > > > So what did he do that was really so bad? > > > > > > > > > > Nothing. What is bad is the writing trying to change who he really is, nor the writer not fully understanding who Braham is. > > > > > > > So far he hasn't actually attacked Mordremoth. He's shot a tooth and proved a theory. He's not obeyed us blindly. He resented us starting a new guild at his mother's memorial service, while he wasn't even there. Seriously, this whole thing is blow way out of proportion. > > > > > > > > Maybe if Brahm had physically attacked us, I'd say that's over the line (for humans anyway, maybe not for norn) but what we've seen? It's just Brahm being sullen and resentful. No matter what anyone says, it's not a complete 180. > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that it's a180 either. I believe that this is not the same Braham. Braham knows his belief and has his own world view, which are in contrast to the Commander, which made him unique. That Braham disappeared. > > > > > > > As for the Taimi thing, Taimi is growing up and as protective as he is, norn do respect individuality and people making their own decisions. Even in HOT she gave up her golem to progress the mission at great expense to herself. Sure she's young but she's also proven herself to be a valuable member of the team. I'm not sure why letting her go into a volcano in a protective suit is so out of character. > > > > > > If that is the case, why did he get angry at the Commander when she got kidnapped by Joko? In my opinion, if he is to get angry at anyone, it would be to the face on the mirror staring back at him. As a Commander, I needed him there but he abandoned us while throwing a hissy fit. If he is really concern about Taimi, which the real Braham was, he would not have left the group. > > > > > > Also, adding that Braham is afraid of spiders is just more salt to the wounds. Sure it was fun watching him squirm around spiders, but that is just pathetic. The writing making him a laughing stock of the episode. > > > > > > To me they introduced these characters as a replacement to the Destiny's Edge, that we should care about the. Then they will just recklessly ruin each of them with bad writing and editing makes me careless about them instead. If that is ArenaNet's goal, they surely is going towards that direction. They already made me not care about Taimi, I mean, what's the point? > > > > Oh I played Guild Wars 1, probably more than 99% of the population. You know, the place where norns at shrines didn't talk to you until you fought them. It wasn't hard to get norn to do anything at all, they simply liked to make their own choices. Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle. They're individualistic, not passive. They're trying to build their legends. Most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon, at least most norn warriors. > > > > You have your opinion but I strongly suspect it's colored by your dislike of other things. Norn are a warrior race who excel at fighting and they often get drunk and brawl. If you didn't pick up any of that from Guild Wars 1, I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about. Hell even in this game, there's you getting drunk at a moot, and getting into a brawl in your personal story options. > > > > You have a very interesting understanding of violence and hostility. Yes, the Norns brawl and yes, the Norns want to make a legend of themselves -- those are not things done with violence or hostility. Reckless? yes, arrogant? yes, but violent or hostile? no. > > Hunting by no means violent or hostile. If you read the Edge of Destiny, how many Norns went with Eir to fight Jormag? Zip. She's the only Norn in Destiny's Edge. So the notion that "Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle" and "most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon" is categorically incorrect. Norn would rather drink than brawl. > > The Norns at the Shrine in GW1 are simply engaging in a friendly spar to test their strength, yet you view that as a violent or hostile response. I like how you ignore parts of what happens just to try to prove your point. I know I've read about norn getting raging drunk and breaking up taverns in at least one of the books if nothing else. The norn express themselves physically. A young norn is likely to be bullish and aggressive. Why not include everything said about norn instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your theories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardeth Wynn.9548 Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 Sigils of Nullification? Seriously? What does a weapon sigil got to do with armor? Do you have any idea how many of these things I have chucked? Once again Guildwars has taken a trash item and made it a requirement. Since there is no recipe to make them looks like I got to frikkin level to 64 delete and repeat cause I am sure as heck not paying 13 gold for one. Whoever came up with this part of the collection..... smooth move Richard, smooth move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we ought to look at Braham’s Past as well. Borje was a Legendary norn, however he is hardly talked about. He didn't die a heroic death like Norn traditionally do. Borje died of sickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That happened when Braham was a child. It is Norn culture to celebrate and boast in glorious death and creating a legend. What did his father have? No glorious death. I imagine this traumatized Braham. A mother who abandoned him and a father who died to sickness. Did he have great Norn hero examples? Is he rebelling against his culture? Maybe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things that is missing in this conversation is that Norns are guided by the Spirit Animal and Eir and Braham are both guided by the Wolf Spirit. I refuse to believe that the death of Eir will have Braham throw away loyalty (wolf spirit sense) and start blaming the Commander. In fact, I expected that their bond would have been stronger after Eir's death since when there was no one else to help him in Cragstead, the Commander was there. His reaction was not even childish, it's simply insane. He lost his mind at the same time he lost his hair. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also in Season 1, he is very protective of Taimi, yet he abandoned her to pursuit Jormag while Taimi joins me inside a volcano. So much for that Wolf Spirit loyalty and pack mentality, I could've really use a healer that time. They've not only destroyed Braham, they've also destroyed the Norn culture. I mean, they've already destroyed the Eternal Alchemy by placing Asura in the Mist. So in a way, it is no surprise that they are now also destroying the Mist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another missing piece is that Destiny's Edge mission was to kill Kral. So if Eir had any unfinished business, that would be Kral and not Jormag. For Braham to insist on taking Jormag first made zero sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then the fact that he suddenly get mushy shows that he is not the same Norn. Someone in game kidnapped the real Braham and replaced him with this impostor...probably a Mordred copy similar to what happened to Logan in the Maguuma. I like to believe that so the real Braham can come back take his rightful place...a pain in my as...side. > > > > > > > > > > You may have something to learn about wolves. There are plenty of young male wolves that don't have a pack at all, that roam around as loners. They're either part of a pack that's destroyed, or they are driven out of a pack by a dominant male. Anyway worshipping a spirit of the wild as a young man doesn't insure either perfect behavior nor does it insure obeying exactly what you think is the perfect way to be. Do you know what happens to religious humans who experience an unfair death? Often they rebel against their very religion. They strike out at God. They believe less or put less stock into previously held beliefs. And after a time, sometimes they come around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not Braham at all. Braham grew up with his clan in Cragstead and not a lone wolf. So this characteristic is not even close tho who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > How old do you think Brahm is. He's just a young man. Maybe 19. Lots of 19 year old humans I know are pretty unsettled at the best of times, never mind what Brahm is going through. His warband, if he has one, is Rox. That's the person he ends up traveling with. While he throws in with us, there's always been some friction if you're looking carefully. Are you saying a young brash wolf can't challenge the head of a pack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite his age, he'd shown leadership in appealing to his mother and Whitebear to help Cragstead. He'd shown his wolf affinity there by inviting the commander to help him when him mother and Whitebear turned him down. That leadership is the quality the Braham has despite his age show maturity and the sense of responsibility and I can also see that he is proud of that quality. > > > > > > > > > This reasoning is all too reasonable and logical to actually represent living, breathing beings. After what he's been through he was bound to fall apart. Add to that the norn tendency to react in a more violent/hostile manner in the first place, I mean he's not human after all, would indicate that when he's stressed he might well challenge an authority figure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, logical and reasonable for humans. Also, it seems that you have this wrong notion that Norn has a tendency to react in violent/hostile manner. If you have played GW1, it took a lot, I mean a lot, of convincing to get them to do anything close to violence or hostile. That passivity was passed on for 250 years. The only time a Norn reacts violently is when they are corrupted by the Dragon's magic. Apathy is best to describe the Norn, not violent nor hostile. Even in the face of death, they treat the situation like a game of Rugby. All fun and game even if someone loses an arm. > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Brahm is great or heroic in his reactions. But there's certainly enough in the story to indicate that he's both angry and impatient and that he's on the verge of finally having some sort of relationship with his mother which is then stolen from him. People in real life have reacted far more strongly than this. I mean what has he done really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing Braham to humans instead of actually taking into account that he is a Norn, who grew up in a culture different from humans and who has a world view that is also different from humans. > > > > > > > > > Struck off on his own? Insulted us a few times. Gotten angry when we formed a new guild (which I thought was relatively reasonable anyway). People are acting like Brahm has eaten babies. He hasn't. He's just acted out a bit. He's been sullen, ornery, rebellious and outspoken. I was that way at 19 myself. You know many teenagers that don't think they have all the answers? Because I don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > All that are not the characteristic of someone who grew up in a Norn community. > > > > > > > > > He thinks in terms of direct conflict, much the way a norn would. Killing Mordremoth didn't sate his desire for vengence, his mother's "funeral" probably brought it all to the surface again, and so he's doing what many norn would do...he's going hunting. He's grown up with the legends of the Tooth after all. It's something he can do And now we're going and telling him not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You got again the wrong notion that Norns thinks in terms of direct conflict when in fact, their very culture tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict. I refuse to believe that Braham grew up with out anyone teaching him of the Norn culture. I mean, when the player first create a new Norn character, the player has to go through the trials which includes learning from the teachings of Raven. From that teachings, the Norn learns wisdom that somehow disappeared from Braham's mind because of his anger? That is hard to believe and even if this is the case, it shows that Braham is a weak character. The Braham that was introduced to us the first time around is not an uneducated and loner Norn. > > > > > > > > > So what did he do that was really so bad? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing. What is bad is the writing trying to change who he really is, nor the writer not fully understanding who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > So far he hasn't actually attacked Mordremoth. He's shot a tooth and proved a theory. He's not obeyed us blindly. He resented us starting a new guild at his mother's memorial service, while he wasn't even there. Seriously, this whole thing is blow way out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if Brahm had physically attacked us, I'd say that's over the line (for humans anyway, maybe not for norn) but what we've seen? It's just Brahm being sullen and resentful. No matter what anyone says, it's not a complete 180. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that it's a180 either. I believe that this is not the same Braham. Braham knows his belief and has his own world view, which are in contrast to the Commander, which made him unique. That Braham disappeared. > > > > > > > > > As for the Taimi thing, Taimi is growing up and as protective as he is, norn do respect individuality and people making their own decisions. Even in HOT she gave up her golem to progress the mission at great expense to herself. Sure she's young but she's also proven herself to be a valuable member of the team. I'm not sure why letting her go into a volcano in a protective suit is so out of character. > > > > > > > > If that is the case, why did he get angry at the Commander when she got kidnapped by Joko? In my opinion, if he is to get angry at anyone, it would be to the face on the mirror staring back at him. As a Commander, I needed him there but he abandoned us while throwing a hissy fit. If he is really concern about Taimi, which the real Braham was, he would not have left the group. > > > > > > > > Also, adding that Braham is afraid of spiders is just more salt to the wounds. Sure it was fun watching him squirm around spiders, but that is just pathetic. The writing making him a laughing stock of the episode. > > > > > > > > To me they introduced these characters as a replacement to the Destiny's Edge, that we should care about the. Then they will just recklessly ruin each of them with bad writing and editing makes me careless about them instead. If that is ArenaNet's goal, they surely is going towards that direction. They already made me not care about Taimi, I mean, what's the point? > > > > > > Oh I played Guild Wars 1, probably more than 99% of the population. You know, the place where norns at shrines didn't talk to you until you fought them. It wasn't hard to get norn to do anything at all, they simply liked to make their own choices. Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle. They're individualistic, not passive. They're trying to build their legends. Most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon, at least most norn warriors. > > > > > > You have your opinion but I strongly suspect it's colored by your dislike of other things. Norn are a warrior race who excel at fighting and they often get drunk and brawl. If you didn't pick up any of that from Guild Wars 1, I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about. Hell even in this game, there's you getting drunk at a moot, and getting into a brawl in your personal story options. > > > > > > > You have a very interesting understanding of violence and hostility. Yes, the Norns brawl and yes, the Norns want to make a legend of themselves -- those are not things done with violence or hostility. Reckless? yes, arrogant? yes, but violent or hostile? no. > > > > Hunting by no means violent or hostile. If you read the Edge of Destiny, how many Norns went with Eir to fight Jormag? Zip. She's the only Norn in Destiny's Edge. So the notion that "Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle" and "most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon" is categorically incorrect. Norn would rather drink than brawl. > > > > The Norns at the Shrine in GW1 are simply engaging in a friendly spar to test their strength, yet you view that as a violent or hostile response. > > I like how you ignore parts of what happens just to try to prove your point. I know I've read about norn getting raging drunk and breaking up taverns in at least one of the books if nothing else. The norn express themselves physically. A young norn is likely to be bullish and aggressive. Why not include everything said about norn instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your theories? I'm not cherry picking, you are grossly generalizing the young Norns. A young Norn getting drunk and brawling, bullish, aggressive, or tearing up taverns is not a representative of all Norns and especially not a representative of Braham. A Norn guided by the Bear has a very different attitude than the Norns guided by the Raven or by the Wolf. Saying that they all have the same tendency is a gross generalization of the race. When they brawl or fight, it is a friendly gesture to test their strength, not due to violence or hostility. Aggressive, yes, but not violent. If a Norn was ever violent, that is only about that single Norn, not every Norn, and maybe due to personal issues. This is the same way with Braham, his reaction is a personal one, not a representative of all Norn. From the wiki: "Norn usually have a great sense of personal honor, for a norn without respect from others is already forgotten." "They are, by their nature, a race of optimists, keeping a positive outlook even though they have been driven from their homeland" This is in conflict with your perception of Norns since responding with violence and hostility does not bring honor nor it is an expression of positive outlook. Their flaws are; "bragging, bullying, unwise snap decisions and an unwillingness to listen to reason" which also describe Braham using unwise snappy decision and unwillingness to listen to reason - but it was never about responding with violence and hostility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we ought to look at Braham’s Past as well. Borje was a Legendary norn, however he is hardly talked about. He didn't die a heroic death like Norn traditionally do. Borje died of sickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That happened when Braham was a child. It is Norn culture to celebrate and boast in glorious death and creating a legend. What did his father have? No glorious death. I imagine this traumatized Braham. A mother who abandoned him and a father who died to sickness. Did he have great Norn hero examples? Is he rebelling against his culture? Maybe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things that is missing in this conversation is that Norns are guided by the Spirit Animal and Eir and Braham are both guided by the Wolf Spirit. I refuse to believe that the death of Eir will have Braham throw away loyalty (wolf spirit sense) and start blaming the Commander. In fact, I expected that their bond would have been stronger after Eir's death since when there was no one else to help him in Cragstead, the Commander was there. His reaction was not even childish, it's simply insane. He lost his mind at the same time he lost his hair. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also in Season 1, he is very protective of Taimi, yet he abandoned her to pursuit Jormag while Taimi joins me inside a volcano. So much for that Wolf Spirit loyalty and pack mentality, I could've really use a healer that time. They've not only destroyed Braham, they've also destroyed the Norn culture. I mean, they've already destroyed the Eternal Alchemy by placing Asura in the Mist. So in a way, it is no surprise that they are now also destroying the Mist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another missing piece is that Destiny's Edge mission was to kill Kral. So if Eir had any unfinished business, that would be Kral and not Jormag. For Braham to insist on taking Jormag first made zero sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then the fact that he suddenly get mushy shows that he is not the same Norn. Someone in game kidnapped the real Braham and replaced him with this impostor...probably a Mordred copy similar to what happened to Logan in the Maguuma. I like to believe that so the real Braham can come back take his rightful place...a pain in my as...side. > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have something to learn about wolves. There are plenty of young male wolves that don't have a pack at all, that roam around as loners. They're either part of a pack that's destroyed, or they are driven out of a pack by a dominant male. Anyway worshipping a spirit of the wild as a young man doesn't insure either perfect behavior nor does it insure obeying exactly what you think is the perfect way to be. Do you know what happens to religious humans who experience an unfair death? Often they rebel against their very religion. They strike out at God. They believe less or put less stock into previously held beliefs. And after a time, sometimes they come around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not Braham at all. Braham grew up with his clan in Cragstead and not a lone wolf. So this characteristic is not even close tho who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > > > How old do you think Brahm is. He's just a young man. Maybe 19. Lots of 19 year old humans I know are pretty unsettled at the best of times, never mind what Brahm is going through. His warband, if he has one, is Rox. That's the person he ends up traveling with. While he throws in with us, there's always been some friction if you're looking carefully. Are you saying a young brash wolf can't challenge the head of a pack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite his age, he'd shown leadership in appealing to his mother and Whitebear to help Cragstead. He'd shown his wolf affinity there by inviting the commander to help him when him mother and Whitebear turned him down. That leadership is the quality the Braham has despite his age show maturity and the sense of responsibility and I can also see that he is proud of that quality. > > > > > > > > > > > This reasoning is all too reasonable and logical to actually represent living, breathing beings. After what he's been through he was bound to fall apart. Add to that the norn tendency to react in a more violent/hostile manner in the first place, I mean he's not human after all, would indicate that when he's stressed he might well challenge an authority figure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, logical and reasonable for humans. Also, it seems that you have this wrong notion that Norn has a tendency to react in violent/hostile manner. If you have played GW1, it took a lot, I mean a lot, of convincing to get them to do anything close to violence or hostile. That passivity was passed on for 250 years. The only time a Norn reacts violently is when they are corrupted by the Dragon's magic. Apathy is best to describe the Norn, not violent nor hostile. Even in the face of death, they treat the situation like a game of Rugby. All fun and game even if someone loses an arm. > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Brahm is great or heroic in his reactions. But there's certainly enough in the story to indicate that he's both angry and impatient and that he's on the verge of finally having some sort of relationship with his mother which is then stolen from him. People in real life have reacted far more strongly than this. I mean what has he done really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing Braham to humans instead of actually taking into account that he is a Norn, who grew up in a culture different from humans and who has a world view that is also different from humans. > > > > > > > > > > > Struck off on his own? Insulted us a few times. Gotten angry when we formed a new guild (which I thought was relatively reasonable anyway). People are acting like Brahm has eaten babies. He hasn't. He's just acted out a bit. He's been sullen, ornery, rebellious and outspoken. I was that way at 19 myself. You know many teenagers that don't think they have all the answers? Because I don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All that are not the characteristic of someone who grew up in a Norn community. > > > > > > > > > > > He thinks in terms of direct conflict, much the way a norn would. Killing Mordremoth didn't sate his desire for vengence, his mother's "funeral" probably brought it all to the surface again, and so he's doing what many norn would do...he's going hunting. He's grown up with the legends of the Tooth after all. It's something he can do And now we're going and telling him not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You got again the wrong notion that Norns thinks in terms of direct conflict when in fact, their very culture tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict. I refuse to believe that Braham grew up with out anyone teaching him of the Norn culture. I mean, when the player first create a new Norn character, the player has to go through the trials which includes learning from the teachings of Raven. From that teachings, the Norn learns wisdom that somehow disappeared from Braham's mind because of his anger? That is hard to believe and even if this is the case, it shows that Braham is a weak character. The Braham that was introduced to us the first time around is not an uneducated and loner Norn. > > > > > > > > > > > So what did he do that was really so bad? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing. What is bad is the writing trying to change who he really is, nor the writer not fully understanding who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > > > So far he hasn't actually attacked Mordremoth. He's shot a tooth and proved a theory. He's not obeyed us blindly. He resented us starting a new guild at his mother's memorial service, while he wasn't even there. Seriously, this whole thing is blow way out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if Brahm had physically attacked us, I'd say that's over the line (for humans anyway, maybe not for norn) but what we've seen? It's just Brahm being sullen and resentful. No matter what anyone says, it's not a complete 180. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that it's a180 either. I believe that this is not the same Braham. Braham knows his belief and has his own world view, which are in contrast to the Commander, which made him unique. That Braham disappeared. > > > > > > > > > > > As for the Taimi thing, Taimi is growing up and as protective as he is, norn do respect individuality and people making their own decisions. Even in HOT she gave up her golem to progress the mission at great expense to herself. Sure she's young but she's also proven herself to be a valuable member of the team. I'm not sure why letting her go into a volcano in a protective suit is so out of character. > > > > > > > > > > If that is the case, why did he get angry at the Commander when she got kidnapped by Joko? In my opinion, if he is to get angry at anyone, it would be to the face on the mirror staring back at him. As a Commander, I needed him there but he abandoned us while throwing a hissy fit. If he is really concern about Taimi, which the real Braham was, he would not have left the group. > > > > > > > > > > Also, adding that Braham is afraid of spiders is just more salt to the wounds. Sure it was fun watching him squirm around spiders, but that is just pathetic. The writing making him a laughing stock of the episode. > > > > > > > > > > To me they introduced these characters as a replacement to the Destiny's Edge, that we should care about the. Then they will just recklessly ruin each of them with bad writing and editing makes me careless about them instead. If that is ArenaNet's goal, they surely is going towards that direction. They already made me not care about Taimi, I mean, what's the point? > > > > > > > > Oh I played Guild Wars 1, probably more than 99% of the population. You know, the place where norns at shrines didn't talk to you until you fought them. It wasn't hard to get norn to do anything at all, they simply liked to make their own choices. Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle. They're individualistic, not passive. They're trying to build their legends. Most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon, at least most norn warriors. > > > > > > > > You have your opinion but I strongly suspect it's colored by your dislike of other things. Norn are a warrior race who excel at fighting and they often get drunk and brawl. If you didn't pick up any of that from Guild Wars 1, I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about. Hell even in this game, there's you getting drunk at a moot, and getting into a brawl in your personal story options. > > > > > > > > > > You have a very interesting understanding of violence and hostility. Yes, the Norns brawl and yes, the Norns want to make a legend of themselves -- those are not things done with violence or hostility. Reckless? yes, arrogant? yes, but violent or hostile? no. > > > > > > Hunting by no means violent or hostile. If you read the Edge of Destiny, how many Norns went with Eir to fight Jormag? Zip. She's the only Norn in Destiny's Edge. So the notion that "Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle" and "most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon" is categorically incorrect. Norn would rather drink than brawl. > > > > > > The Norns at the Shrine in GW1 are simply engaging in a friendly spar to test their strength, yet you view that as a violent or hostile response. > > > > I like how you ignore parts of what happens just to try to prove your point. I know I've read about norn getting raging drunk and breaking up taverns in at least one of the books if nothing else. The norn express themselves physically. A young norn is likely to be bullish and aggressive. Why not include everything said about norn instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your theories? > > I'm not cherry picking, you are grossly generalizing the young Norns. A young Norn getting drunk and brawling, bullish, aggressive, or tearing up taverns is not a representative of all Norns and especially not a representative of Braham. A Norn guided by the Bear has a very different attitude than the Norns guided by the Raven or by the Wolf. Saying that they all have the same tendency is a gross generalization of the race. > > When they brawl or fight, it is a friendly gesture to test their strength, not due to violence or hostility. Aggressive, yes, but not violent. If a Norn was ever violent, that is only about that single Norn, not every Norn, and maybe due to personal issues. This is the same way with Braham, his reaction is a personal one, not a representative of all Norn. > > From the wiki: > "Norn usually have a great sense of personal honor, for a norn without respect from others is already forgotten." > "They are, by their nature, a race of optimists, keeping a positive outlook even though they have been driven from their homeland" > > This is in conflict with your perception of Norns since responding with violence and hostility does not bring honor nor it is an expression of positive outlook. > > Their flaws are; "bragging, bullying, unwise snap decisions and an unwillingness to listen to reason" which also describe Braham using unwise snappy decision and unwillingness to listen to reason - but it was never about responding with violence and hostility. I'm not exaagerating anything. I'm saying brawling and being angry and sullen are within the range of what we've seen from norn in the past. You're the one saying the behavior is somehow out of character. We all know the game tends to show good guys as player characters generally. We show one sullen guy who gets annoyed at something a few times, or acts out and you're saying it's out of character. He didn't kill be dog. He questioned my decisions. He was sullen and unreasonable. It's fine. Saying it's not is meaningless because not every norn is going to act identical to every other norn. If he attacked me physically you might even have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardeth Wynn.9548 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 Maybe, like you two should start your own Norn Love/Hate thread? I am pretty clear, I don't like Brahm and this softer side turn, it doesn't make him any more likable to me, but I do like that even though I am irked with this, as a player, as the commander, I am kind of forced to face Joko and the dragons with him, still wish that during "Bug in The System" I could have pushed him off the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tsakhi.8124" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Braham, for Pete's sake, really? Way to emasculate a proud Norn and kill this character. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the Braham my character hated who also wants to take over leadership. Not the same Braham who through his pride, my character is developing to be a great leader. Really? Scared of spiders? This is a weak and pathetic Norn who claims to be Braham. Where is the Braham that pushes my character to be great? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, I was able to relate to him even more. Just because you're afraid of something, doesn't emasculate you or make you weak, it makes you mortal. Also, Braham is _still_ there, just not as petulant and annoying. Trust me, I have a feeling that his character flaws will start poking through every now and again. I saw this as sort of a turning point for him, where he realizes that if he stopped fighting with everyone and himself long enough, he could accomplish a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, the proud Norn we all saw during Flame and Frost is gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The impetuous headstrong grieving Norn we all saw during earlier parts of the story is showing that he is capable of learning (some of ) the lessons that Life shoves in his face, and appears to be capable of making peace with the memory of his mother, with the Commander, and most importantly with himself. What he showed back then was *hubris*, not mere pride. He is learning the difference between those two things, and he is becoming the proud Norn he was always capable of being. He's also growing beyond the slight "comic relief" aspect he previously had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My issue is this, They did a 180 on his character from the end of HoT to the next LS season, and now they did a complete 180 again because the outcry originally from people like myself that where pissed off at how they handled him after HoT. Either they dont keep track of what happens in their own stories or the different teams(Which im assuming all teams work on expansions when it comes to the LS teams unless they keep those seperate while expansion work is ongoing.) dont communicate at all. The Norn we had at the end of HoT was not the same Norn we got at the beginning of the next LS season and there was no reason at all for that major of a character change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean someone saw their mom die, got through the emergency of the dragon and suddenly fell apart is doing a 180? Because I don't see it like that at all. I see it as a guy who lost his mother, had no time to grieve during a crisis, and then fell apart when the crisis was over. Hardly a 180. It's not like Brahm is a 60 year old guy. He's a young guy who was estranged from his mother, finally started getting to know her and then lost her before that ever really happened. So he was angry and he acted out, as many people actually do in real life. Death of a loved one, particularly in that sort of circumstance can cause people to have reactions. I'd have been more annoyed if he'd had no reaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he thinks about it a while, probably Rox works on him a bit, and he realizes he's been acting like a kitten. This also happens in real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None of this represents doing a 180. All of this represents a character reacting to circumstance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Part of the issue is that people don't look at the big picture. They look at individual scenes that come from story chapters that come far apart. HoT came out, and the next living story was 9 months later. To us, it's a long time. It's not so long to Brahm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are correct people do react, But, unless HoT ended the exact month the year turned from 1328 to 1329, there was at the most an entire *year*, and at minimum one month between when HoT ended and the next LS season started in game. I personally(and ive had alot of deaths in both the family and among my friends) have never known anyone to react the way he did given the maximum amount of time that had passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if we are to assume the minimum amount of time, i can *Maybe* see that one happening that way, but, even then, most people i know when they have someone pushed away they will for sure care if they almost got someone killed doing something, which he does not and that is where i started to not like Braham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reaction i was expecting from the Norn we had at the end of HoT was that of how a Norn as theyve been presented in the entirety of their culture,with the exception of Braham would react, which is not what we got. Norn do not fear death so long as they are not forgotten, and given that knowledge i would expect a norn who had someone they knew die, react differently than treat a person who was in this example the deceased's friend/ally and could have potentially told them of things the deceased had done that the mourner might not about, furthering the deceased's legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we ought to look at Braham’s Past as well. Borje was a Legendary norn, however he is hardly talked about. He didn't die a heroic death like Norn traditionally do. Borje died of sickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That happened when Braham was a child. It is Norn culture to celebrate and boast in glorious death and creating a legend. What did his father have? No glorious death. I imagine this traumatized Braham. A mother who abandoned him and a father who died to sickness. Did he have great Norn hero examples? Is he rebelling against his culture? Maybe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things that is missing in this conversation is that Norns are guided by the Spirit Animal and Eir and Braham are both guided by the Wolf Spirit. I refuse to believe that the death of Eir will have Braham throw away loyalty (wolf spirit sense) and start blaming the Commander. In fact, I expected that their bond would have been stronger after Eir's death since when there was no one else to help him in Cragstead, the Commander was there. His reaction was not even childish, it's simply insane. He lost his mind at the same time he lost his hair. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also in Season 1, he is very protective of Taimi, yet he abandoned her to pursuit Jormag while Taimi joins me inside a volcano. So much for that Wolf Spirit loyalty and pack mentality, I could've really use a healer that time. They've not only destroyed Braham, they've also destroyed the Norn culture. I mean, they've already destroyed the Eternal Alchemy by placing Asura in the Mist. So in a way, it is no surprise that they are now also destroying the Mist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another missing piece is that Destiny's Edge mission was to kill Kral. So if Eir had any unfinished business, that would be Kral and not Jormag. For Braham to insist on taking Jormag first made zero sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then the fact that he suddenly get mushy shows that he is not the same Norn. Someone in game kidnapped the real Braham and replaced him with this impostor...probably a Mordred copy similar to what happened to Logan in the Maguuma. I like to believe that so the real Braham can come back take his rightful place...a pain in my as...side. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have something to learn about wolves. There are plenty of young male wolves that don't have a pack at all, that roam around as loners. They're either part of a pack that's destroyed, or they are driven out of a pack by a dominant male. Anyway worshipping a spirit of the wild as a young man doesn't insure either perfect behavior nor does it insure obeying exactly what you think is the perfect way to be. Do you know what happens to religious humans who experience an unfair death? Often they rebel against their very religion. They strike out at God. They believe less or put less stock into previously held beliefs. And after a time, sometimes they come around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not Braham at all. Braham grew up with his clan in Cragstead and not a lone wolf. So this characteristic is not even close tho who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > How old do you think Brahm is. He's just a young man. Maybe 19. Lots of 19 year old humans I know are pretty unsettled at the best of times, never mind what Brahm is going through. His warband, if he has one, is Rox. That's the person he ends up traveling with. While he throws in with us, there's always been some friction if you're looking carefully. Are you saying a young brash wolf can't challenge the head of a pack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Despite his age, he'd shown leadership in appealing to his mother and Whitebear to help Cragstead. He'd shown his wolf affinity there by inviting the commander to help him when him mother and Whitebear turned him down. That leadership is the quality the Braham has despite his age show maturity and the sense of responsibility and I can also see that he is proud of that quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This reasoning is all too reasonable and logical to actually represent living, breathing beings. After what he's been through he was bound to fall apart. Add to that the norn tendency to react in a more violent/hostile manner in the first place, I mean he's not human after all, would indicate that when he's stressed he might well challenge an authority figure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, logical and reasonable for humans. Also, it seems that you have this wrong notion that Norn has a tendency to react in violent/hostile manner. If you have played GW1, it took a lot, I mean a lot, of convincing to get them to do anything close to violence or hostile. That passivity was passed on for 250 years. The only time a Norn reacts violently is when they are corrupted by the Dragon's magic. Apathy is best to describe the Norn, not violent nor hostile. Even in the face of death, they treat the situation like a game of Rugby. All fun and game even if someone loses an arm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Brahm is great or heroic in his reactions. But there's certainly enough in the story to indicate that he's both angry and impatient and that he's on the verge of finally having some sort of relationship with his mother which is then stolen from him. People in real life have reacted far more strongly than this. I mean what has he done really? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing Braham to humans instead of actually taking into account that he is a Norn, who grew up in a culture different from humans and who has a world view that is also different from humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Struck off on his own? Insulted us a few times. Gotten angry when we formed a new guild (which I thought was relatively reasonable anyway). People are acting like Brahm has eaten babies. He hasn't. He's just acted out a bit. He's been sullen, ornery, rebellious and outspoken. I was that way at 19 myself. You know many teenagers that don't think they have all the answers? Because I don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All that are not the characteristic of someone who grew up in a Norn community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > He thinks in terms of direct conflict, much the way a norn would. Killing Mordremoth didn't sate his desire for vengence, his mother's "funeral" probably brought it all to the surface again, and so he's doing what many norn would do...he's going hunting. He's grown up with the legends of the Tooth after all. It's something he can do And now we're going and telling him not to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You got again the wrong notion that Norns thinks in terms of direct conflict when in fact, their very culture tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict. I refuse to believe that Braham grew up with out anyone teaching him of the Norn culture. I mean, when the player first create a new Norn character, the player has to go through the trials which includes learning from the teachings of Raven. From that teachings, the Norn learns wisdom that somehow disappeared from Braham's mind because of his anger? That is hard to believe and even if this is the case, it shows that Braham is a weak character. The Braham that was introduced to us the first time around is not an uneducated and loner Norn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what did he do that was really so bad? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing. What is bad is the writing trying to change who he really is, nor the writer not fully understanding who Braham is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far he hasn't actually attacked Mordremoth. He's shot a tooth and proved a theory. He's not obeyed us blindly. He resented us starting a new guild at his mother's memorial service, while he wasn't even there. Seriously, this whole thing is blow way out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if Brahm had physically attacked us, I'd say that's over the line (for humans anyway, maybe not for norn) but what we've seen? It's just Brahm being sullen and resentful. No matter what anyone says, it's not a complete 180. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe that it's a180 either. I believe that this is not the same Braham. Braham knows his belief and has his own world view, which are in contrast to the Commander, which made him unique. That Braham disappeared. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the Taimi thing, Taimi is growing up and as protective as he is, norn do respect individuality and people making their own decisions. Even in HOT she gave up her golem to progress the mission at great expense to herself. Sure she's young but she's also proven herself to be a valuable member of the team. I'm not sure why letting her go into a volcano in a protective suit is so out of character. > > > > > > > > > > > > If that is the case, why did he get angry at the Commander when she got kidnapped by Joko? In my opinion, if he is to get angry at anyone, it would be to the face on the mirror staring back at him. As a Commander, I needed him there but he abandoned us while throwing a hissy fit. If he is really concern about Taimi, which the real Braham was, he would not have left the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, adding that Braham is afraid of spiders is just more salt to the wounds. Sure it was fun watching him squirm around spiders, but that is just pathetic. The writing making him a laughing stock of the episode. > > > > > > > > > > > > To me they introduced these characters as a replacement to the Destiny's Edge, that we should care about the. Then they will just recklessly ruin each of them with bad writing and editing makes me careless about them instead. If that is ArenaNet's goal, they surely is going towards that direction. They already made me not care about Taimi, I mean, what's the point? > > > > > > > > > > Oh I played Guild Wars 1, probably more than 99% of the population. You know, the place where norns at shrines didn't talk to you until you fought them. It wasn't hard to get norn to do anything at all, they simply liked to make their own choices. Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle. They're individualistic, not passive. They're trying to build their legends. Most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon, at least most norn warriors. > > > > > > > > > > You have your opinion but I strongly suspect it's colored by your dislike of other things. Norn are a warrior race who excel at fighting and they often get drunk and brawl. If you didn't pick up any of that from Guild Wars 1, I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about. Hell even in this game, there's you getting drunk at a moot, and getting into a brawl in your personal story options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have a very interesting understanding of violence and hostility. Yes, the Norns brawl and yes, the Norns want to make a legend of themselves -- those are not things done with violence or hostility. Reckless? yes, arrogant? yes, but violent or hostile? no. > > > > > > > > Hunting by no means violent or hostile. If you read the Edge of Destiny, how many Norns went with Eir to fight Jormag? Zip. She's the only Norn in Destiny's Edge. So the notion that "Norn reveled in the hunt. In battle" and "most norn wouldn't pass up the chance to fight a dragon" is categorically incorrect. Norn would rather drink than brawl. > > > > > > > > The Norns at the Shrine in GW1 are simply engaging in a friendly spar to test their strength, yet you view that as a violent or hostile response. > > > > > > I like how you ignore parts of what happens just to try to prove your point. I know I've read about norn getting raging drunk and breaking up taverns in at least one of the books if nothing else. The norn express themselves physically. A young norn is likely to be bullish and aggressive. Why not include everything said about norn instead of cherry picking the stuff that supports your theories? > > > > I'm not cherry picking, you are grossly generalizing the young Norns. A young Norn getting drunk and brawling, bullish, aggressive, or tearing up taverns is not a representative of all Norns and especially not a representative of Braham. A Norn guided by the Bear has a very different attitude than the Norns guided by the Raven or by the Wolf. Saying that they all have the same tendency is a gross generalization of the race. > > > > When they brawl or fight, it is a friendly gesture to test their strength, not due to violence or hostility. Aggressive, yes, but not violent. If a Norn was ever violent, that is only about that single Norn, not every Norn, and maybe due to personal issues. This is the same way with Braham, his reaction is a personal one, not a representative of all Norn. > > > > From the wiki: > > "Norn usually have a great sense of personal honor, for a norn without respect from others is already forgotten." > > "They are, by their nature, a race of optimists, keeping a positive outlook even though they have been driven from their homeland" > > > > This is in conflict with your perception of Norns since responding with violence and hostility does not bring honor nor it is an expression of positive outlook. > > > > Their flaws are; "bragging, bullying, unwise snap decisions and an unwillingness to listen to reason" which also describe Braham using unwise snappy decision and unwillingness to listen to reason - but it was never about responding with violence and hostility. > > I'm not exaagerating anything. I'm saying brawling and being angry and sullen are within the range of what we've seen from norn in the past. You're the one saying the behavior is somehow out of character. We all know the game tends to show good guys as player characters generally. We show one sullen guy who gets annoyed at something a few times, or acts out and you're saying it's out of character. He didn't kill be dog. He questioned my decisions. He was sullen and unreasonable. It's fine. Saying it's not is meaningless because not every norn is going to act identical to every other norn. If he attacked me physically you might even have a point. Questioning my decisions, challenging my leadership, and gruntingly following my lead is what I like about him, not this lost puppy fake-Braham that claims to be Braham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now