Next Raid - Wizard's Tower?

[Maria Murtor.7253]

I just completed the Mythwright Scholar achievement and was very surprised about Zommoros's Research Notes (minor spoiler comming). Let's go over the clues.

 

I'm not really sure what happens with Qadim after his defeat, but it seems, he survived the battle in some strange way, and I guess, he is not very pleased that we spoiled his plans. So we might have a reunion with him soon or later. Anything else would not make much sense, because why else would you let him live?

 

And then there are the Research Notes:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zommoros%27s_Research_Notes

 

The wing and the achievement gave us some clues about Zommoros and the Djinn; in most particular how Djinn do think about the world, other creatures and the elements. I think it's suspicious that Isgarren is beeing mentioned in there. I mean: Why is there a reason? It could have been anyone else. Someone more known characters or someone completly new. But for reasons: It's Isgarren. Maybe to bring his name back to the minds of us players (?)

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isgarren

 

From the people of Garenhoff we know, that Isgarren sent Elements to the village to protect the villagers and the tower.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garenhoff

 

We really do not know, what kind of person this Isgarren is. Considering his releationship to Elemental-Creatures and his old age it's possible that he is another Djinn (maybe a powerfull Air Djinn in disguise-> flying castle). So, if Qadim still is interested to add excotic creatures to his collection, he might visit Isgarren in the next raid - for some of the Wizards experiments or for Isgarren himself.

 

 

[Zaraki.5784]

I'd prefer the Wizard Tower to be released with an open world/story-level of difficulty, many people are interested in it and putting it to a raid level doesn't seem the right thing to do imho.

[maxwelgm.4315]

There would be quite some player outrage coming out of this, and at least some of it I think would be warranted. I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal or even better, have it be part of Living World somehow. Mythwright Gambit was a breath of fresh air because it did not resort to most-wanted Lore backgrounds from GW1 in order to pull off its own (very good) story.

 

I personally would rather that they continue Qadim's story without touching the Wizard's Tower. Unfortunately though, it would make sense that they go that way, because Isgarren is supposedly a god-tier elementalist and Djinns are basically sentient elementals.

[Cyninja.2954]

Never got the entire Wizard Tower obsession in GW1 (then again maybe I did not pay enough attention during vanilla GW1 since I mostly got into the game with Nightfall) but I do know that a lot of GW1 players deeply enjoyed the Wizard Tower quest line and lore.

 

Similar to wing 5 and Dhuum taking place in the Underworld this might be a central lore location which is might be disconnected enough from the GW2 main story (which we know Arenanet try not to include in raids) while at the same time being Guild Wars centric enough to visit in raids. It would fit into their design for raids.

 

That said, I do hope they can reach a good balance between raid stories and GW1 lore. I'd rather have no story with raids or absolute trivial side stories be handled in raids while introducing old GW1 lore via all accessible side content in the game (the game could still use some kind of tutorial side mission structure, hint hint). Not sure Arenanet has the resources to pull this off though.

[Maria Murtor.7253]

I was not very pleased with the decision to put Sauls Story in to a raid also. And to be fair: Like Zaraki I would love to explore the Wizard's Tower in a open world instance or something like that. But as I mentioned before: I find it very, very, very suspicious, that Isgarren, a character who was not mentioned since the release of the games makes a guest appearance all the sudden.

 

There is another theory: As we learned in Guild Wars 1, Djinn were used as servants and guardians of treasuers. The Wizard's Tower is protected very well since houndred of years. So, Isgarren also could have a servant Djinn for his services.

[Tyson.5160]

Isgarren could also be an air Djinn in disguise as well. Though on second thought I’m sure Zommoros would notice. Perhaps Isgarren has aligned himself with Qadim for some unknown purpose.

 

I also saw those things mentioned in the journal which left me to believe it’s bread crumbing or foreshadowing a Wizard Tower raid wing, which honestly is a nice location and setting, which should seem different enough from the first few raid wings.

 

For those who wanted this in living world release. Seems unlikely to happen. It would probably be like Saul’s story line in Bastion. If it didn’t happen there, the story would have never happen.

 

I guess another reason to add a story mode.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Isgarren could also be an air Djinn in disguise as well. Though on second thought I’m sure Zommoros would notice. Perhaps Isgarren has aligned himself with Qadim for some unknown purpose.

>

> I also saw those things mentioned in the journal which left me to believe it’s bread crumbing or foreshadowing a Wizard Tower raid wing, which honestly is a nice location and setting, which should seem different enough from the first few raid wings.

>

> For those who wanted this in living world release. Seems unlikely to happen. It would probably be like Saul’s story line in Bastion. If it didn’t happen there, the story would have never happen.

>

> I guess another reason to add a story mode.

 

The problem with a story mode, among the many other things already mentioned in this forum, is that the story is nearly non-existent in combat but rather you collect it through journal notes and such. What we do get of lore concerning raids that is not available in a cleared instance, is inserted mechanically (e.g Xera's bloodstone shards, Deimos' demonic realm, Qadim's lamp and the Cauldron platforms, Matthias' phases, as well as dialogue during battles), and these mechanics are in many cases a "do or die" thing, without leaving any room for tuning of difficulty.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Isgarren could also be an air Djinn in disguise as well. Though on second thought I’m sure Zommoros would notice. Perhaps Isgarren has aligned himself with Qadim for some unknown purpose.

> >

> > I also saw those things mentioned in the journal which left me to believe it’s bread crumbing or foreshadowing a Wizard Tower raid wing, which honestly is a nice location and setting, which should seem different enough from the first few raid wings.

> >

> > For those who wanted this in living world release. Seems unlikely to happen. It would probably be like Saul’s story line in Bastion. If it didn’t happen there, the story would have never happen.

> >

> > I guess another reason to add a story mode.

>

> The problem with a story mode, among the many other things already mentioned in this forum, is that the story is nearly non-existent in combat but rather you collect it through journal notes and such. What we do get of lore concerning raids that is not available in a cleared instance, is inserted mechanically (e.g Xera's bloodstone shards, Deimos' demonic realm, Qadim's lamp and the Cauldron platforms, Matthias' phases, as well as dialogue during battles), and these mechanics are in many cases a "do or die" thing, without leaving any room for tuning of difficulty.

 

Which is true, but they don’t have to be a do or die thing.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

Doesn't matter what story the devs put in raids, there will always be players outrage.

So just do wizard's tower in next raid and let them outrage

[Tyson.5160]

I get the nostalgia factor for the wizards tower, I too played gw1, been playing since the gw1 beta. That being said, we had a few quests that occurred outside of it. Never really knowing what was inside. The tower returns in Gw2 and so far, I don’t really see how the current story can make use of the tower. It honestly seems like the perfect setting for a raid wing. I mean imagine the final fight being faught at the very top of the tower something akin to Xera. Having the outside raining and stormy, while the fight is occurring.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Maria Murtor.7253" said:

> I just completed the Mythwright Scholar achievement and was very surprised about Zommoros's Research Notes (minor spoiler comming). Let's go over the clues.

>

> I'm not really sure what happens with Qadim after his defeat, but it seems, he survived the battle in some strange way, and I guess, he is not very pleased that we spoiled his plans. So we might have a reunion with him soon or later. Anything else would not make much sense, because why else would you let him live?

>

> And then there are the Research Notes:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zommoros%27s_Research_Notes

>

> The wing and the achievement gave us some clues about Zommoros and the Djinn; in most particular how Djinn do think about the world, other creatures and the elements. I think it's suspicious that Isgarren is beeing mentioned in there. I mean: Why is there a reason? It could have been anyone else. Someone more known characters or someone completly new. But for reasons: It's Isgarren. Maybe to bring his name back to the minds of us players (?)

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isgarren

>

> From the people of Garenhoff we know, that Isgarren sent Elements to the village to protect the villagers and the tower.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garenhoff

>

> We really do not know, what kind of person this Isgarren is. Considering his releationship to Elemental-Creatures and his old age it's possible that he is another Djinn (maybe a powerfull Air Djinn in disguise-> flying castle). So, if Qadim still is interested to add excotic creatures to his collection, he might visit Isgarren in the next raid - for some of the Wizards experiments or for Isgarren himself.

>

>

 

I'd like to point out something else - the tale of [The Four Djinn](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Four_Djinn "The Four Djinn"). We pretty much know Zommoros is the Water djinn in the story, and I can't help but think Qadim was the Fire one. Not only they know each other, they are evenly matched, in perfect balance, before Qadim's fight starts. So it is interesting for me to think about Isgarren being the Air djinn.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Maria Murtor.7253" said:

> > I just completed the Mythwright Scholar achievement and was very surprised about Zommoros's Research Notes (minor spoiler comming). Let's go over the clues.

> >

> > I'm not really sure what happens with Qadim after his defeat, but it seems, he survived the battle in some strange way, and I guess, he is not very pleased that we spoiled his plans. So we might have a reunion with him soon or later. Anything else would not make much sense, because why else would you let him live?

> >

> > And then there are the Research Notes:

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zommoros%27s_Research_Notes

> >

> > The wing and the achievement gave us some clues about Zommoros and the Djinn; in most particular how Djinn do think about the world, other creatures and the elements. I think it's suspicious that Isgarren is beeing mentioned in there. I mean: Why is there a reason? It could have been anyone else. Someone more known characters or someone completly new. But for reasons: It's Isgarren. Maybe to bring his name back to the minds of us players (?)

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isgarren

> >

> > From the people of Garenhoff we know, that Isgarren sent Elements to the village to protect the villagers and the tower.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garenhoff

> >

> > We really do not know, what kind of person this Isgarren is. Considering his releationship to Elemental-Creatures and his old age it's possible that he is another Djinn (maybe a powerfull Air Djinn in disguise-> flying castle). So, if Qadim still is interested to add excotic creatures to his collection, he might visit Isgarren in the next raid - for some of the Wizards experiments or for Isgarren himself.

> >

> >

>

> I'd like to point out something else - the tale of [The Four Djinn](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Four_Djinn "The Four Djinn"). We pretty much know Zommoros is the Water djinn in the story, and I can't help but think Qadim was the Fire one. Not only they know each other, they are evenly matched, in perfect balance, before Qadim's fight starts. So it is interesting for me to think about Isgarren being the Air djinn.

 

He does a have floating castle, which is not all that strange compared to the Djinn city in the Desolation. Zommoros also doesn’t specify what Isgarren is, so it’s highly possible he is an Air Djinn.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

>I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal

 

So you're mad that anet continued the story from gw1 end game content behind gw2 end game content? What? Underworld in GW1 is significantly harder than Hall of Chains, so I have no possible concept of how you could arrive at this position in a logical manner.

 

 

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> >I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal

>

> So you're mad that anet continued the story from gw1 end game content behind gw2 end game content? What? Underworld in GW1 is significantly harder than Hall of Chains, so I have no possible concept of how you could arrive at this position in a logical manner.

>

>

 

Yes, it was much harder, and also much bigger and expanded on. Hall of Chains actually managed to have _less_ lore than even Bastion of the Penitent and the Forsaken Thicket. The closest format that would match any of the GW1 elite areas in here would be dungeons and Anet is bent on not ever touching long instances again.

 

With that said, there is also the matter that, if they're going to present such an empty instance to us, it could have just been a fractal. Apart from the typical raid mechanics such as the timer there is literally nothing else in the map to explore other than a couple chests, Gwen's ghost and the bosses themselves. This is not typical even of other raids, with w4 and w6 being good examples in that they have whole pieces of lore you won't even see if you don't explore around, as well as w3 and w4 again that have whole areas that are just there for exploration and nuance without the raid being a linear boss corridor (which hall of chains certainly is).

 

Anet can make these half-baked stories within their own original designs if they want, why even node back to gw1 if you're not even gonna actually flesh out your continuation story? We left W5 knowing as much as we did before about anything related to Desmina, Dhuum and the Underworld. Hall of Chains is a nod back to WoW, not to gw1, which is why I did not like that they particularly chose to drop their Underworld ball on this one.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > >I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal

> >

> > So you're mad that anet continued the story from gw1 end game content behind gw2 end game content? What? Underworld in GW1 is significantly harder than Hall of Chains, so I have no possible concept of how you could arrive at this position in a logical manner.

> >

> >

>

> Yes, it was much harder, and also much bigger and expanded on. Hall of Chains actually managed to have _less_ lore than even Bastion of the Penitent and the Forsaken Thicket. The closest format that would match any of the GW1 elite areas in here would be dungeons and Anet is bent on not ever touching long instances again.

>

> With that said, there is also the matter that, if they're going to present such an empty instance to us, it could have just been a fractal. Apart from the typical raid mechanics such as the timer there is literally nothing else in the map to explore other than a couple chests, Gwen's ghost and the bosses themselves. This is not typical even of other raids, with w4 and w6 being good examples in that they have whole pieces of lore you won't even see if you don't explore around, as well as w3 and w4 again that have whole areas that are just there for exploration and nuance without the raid being a linear boss corridor (which hall of chains certainly is).

>

> Anet can make these half-baked stories within their own original designs if they want, why even node back to gw1 if you're not even gonna actually flesh out your continuation story? We left W5 knowing as much as we did before about anything related to Desmina, Dhuum and the Underworld. Hall of Chains is a nod back to WoW, not to gw1, which is why I did not like that they particularly chose to drop their Underworld ball on this one.

 

But that's the entire intent. You assume that these stories or events or locations would get picked up for different content, what if that was never the case?

 

Isn't it better to give a nod back to these unrelated to GW2 plot stories from GW1 in a limited fashion instead of never using the established lore again but instead making new stuff up?

 

The limited scope allows them to enhance upon the experience should they ever decide to introduce some of this to the game. See wing 1 for example which enhanced some of the living world season 3 stuff without being so significant that players would get mad about not accessing it

[Tyson.5160]

There is always a possibility that we could come back to the underworld as well and further flush out some of the story with Desmina etc.

[yann.1946]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > >I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal

> > >

> > > So you're mad that anet continued the story from gw1 end game content behind gw2 end game content? What? Underworld in GW1 is significantly harder than Hall of Chains, so I have no possible concept of how you could arrive at this position in a logical manner.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes, it was much harder, and also much bigger and expanded on. Hall of Chains actually managed to have _less_ lore than even Bastion of the Penitent and the Forsaken Thicket. The closest format that would match any of the GW1 elite areas in here would be dungeons and Anet is bent on not ever touching long instances again.

> >

> > With that said, there is also the matter that, if they're going to present such an empty instance to us, it could have just been a fractal. Apart from the typical raid mechanics such as the timer there is literally nothing else in the map to explore other than a couple chests, Gwen's ghost and the bosses themselves. This is not typical even of other raids, with w4 and w6 being good examples in that they have whole pieces of lore you won't even see if you don't explore around, as well as w3 and w4 again that have whole areas that are just there for exploration and nuance without the raid being a linear boss corridor (which hall of chains certainly is).

> >

> > Anet can make these half-baked stories within their own original designs if they want, why even node back to gw1 if you're not even gonna actually flesh out your continuation story? We left W5 knowing as much as we did before about anything related to Desmina, Dhuum and the Underworld. Hall of Chains is a nod back to WoW, not to gw1, which is why I did not like that they particularly chose to drop their Underworld ball on this one.

>

> But that's the entire intent. You assume that these stories or events or locations would get picked up for different content, what if that was never the case?

>

> Isn't it better to give a nod back to these unrelated to GW2 plot stories from GW1 in a limited fashion instead of never using the established lore again but instead making new stuff up?

>

> The limited scope allows them to enhance upon the experience should they ever decide to introduce some of this to the game. See wing 1 for example which enhanced some of the living world season 3 stuff without being so significant that players would get mad about not accessing it

 

While I agree with you're post in general. Their was quite a lot of complaining about the interlocking of forsaken ticket and s3.

I agree it was unfounded complaining but their still was a lot of it.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > > >I did not like that Hall of Chains used the Underworld as a backdrop instead of expanding on it inside a Fractal

> > > >

> > > > So you're mad that anet continued the story from gw1 end game content behind gw2 end game content? What? Underworld in GW1 is significantly harder than Hall of Chains, so I have no possible concept of how you could arrive at this position in a logical manner.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes, it was much harder, and also much bigger and expanded on. Hall of Chains actually managed to have _less_ lore than even Bastion of the Penitent and the Forsaken Thicket. The closest format that would match any of the GW1 elite areas in here would be dungeons and Anet is bent on not ever touching long instances again.

> > >

> > > With that said, there is also the matter that, if they're going to present such an empty instance to us, it could have just been a fractal. Apart from the typical raid mechanics such as the timer there is literally nothing else in the map to explore other than a couple chests, Gwen's ghost and the bosses themselves. This is not typical even of other raids, with w4 and w6 being good examples in that they have whole pieces of lore you won't even see if you don't explore around, as well as w3 and w4 again that have whole areas that are just there for exploration and nuance without the raid being a linear boss corridor (which hall of chains certainly is).

> > >

> > > Anet can make these half-baked stories within their own original designs if they want, why even node back to gw1 if you're not even gonna actually flesh out your continuation story? We left W5 knowing as much as we did before about anything related to Desmina, Dhuum and the Underworld. Hall of Chains is a nod back to WoW, not to gw1, which is why I did not like that they particularly chose to drop their Underworld ball on this one.

> >

> > But that's the entire intent. You assume that these stories or events or locations would get picked up for different content, what if that was never the case?

> >

> > Isn't it better to give a nod back to these unrelated to GW2 plot stories from GW1 in a limited fashion instead of never using the established lore again but instead making new stuff up?

> >

> > The limited scope allows them to enhance upon the experience should they ever decide to introduce some of this to the game. See wing 1 for example which enhanced some of the living world season 3 stuff without being so significant that players would get mad about not accessing it

>

> While I agree with you're post in general. Their was quite a lot of complaining about the interlocking of forsaken ticket and s3.

> I agree it was unfounded complaining but their still was a lot of it.

 

True, and I can fully understand when people complain about GW1 lore getting used. I just think otherwise we would not get any of it.

 

If it was up to me (and it's not) I would design fractals with a lot more reference to GW1 (since they are already scaled difficulty wise) and thus allow more people to experience the content. Danger here is that the limited scope of fractals could damage the established lore if done wrong. Some of the older fractals already are (EDIT: clarification, I meant dealing with established GW1 lore, not necessary damaging it).

 

Meanwhile I believe keeping raid story minimal is the way to go (and I love having lore in raids but I don't want people who do not raid to be heavily disadvantaged).

[flog.3485]

Fractals would be best for wizards tower. They can make T4 the most difficult content they want and nobody should complain since anyone can complete any fractal at whatever tier available.

[Fenom.9457]

No, must let that be open world content. Raids should go back to being in the world map fighting powerful stuff in secluded corners of the world - I’m shocked we haven’t gotten one yet actually set in Elona

[Tails.9372]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> I'd prefer the Wizard Tower to be released with an open world/story-level of difficulty, many people are interested in it and putting it to a raid level doesn't seem the right thing to do imho.

You can actually have it "both ways" if you make it an "OW raid", kinda like Dragon's Stand but this time with some quality please.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > I'd prefer the Wizard Tower to be released with an open world/story-level of difficulty, many people are interested in it and putting it to a raid level doesn't seem the right thing to do imho.

> You can actually have it "both ways" if you make it an "OW raid", kinda like Dragon's Stand but this time with some quality please.

 

DS is quite the high quality OW content.

[Zaraki.5784]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > I'd prefer the Wizard Tower to be released with an open world/story-level of difficulty, many people are interested in it and putting it to a raid level doesn't seem the right thing to do imho.

> > You can actually have it "both ways" if you make it an "OW raid", kinda like Dragon's Stand but this time with some quality please.

>

> DS is quite the high quality OW content.

 

Indeed, it's one of the best OW meta imho. The only thing I don't like about it is that it requires too much time to be completed.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > I'd prefer the Wizard Tower to be released with an open world/story-level of difficulty, many people are interested in it and putting it to a raid level doesn't seem the right thing to do imho.

> > You can actually have it "both ways" if you make it an "OW raid", kinda like Dragon's Stand but this time with some quality please.

>

> DS is quite the high quality OW content.

Overall compared to other OW content but it's not like as if the bar is exceptionally high. The "big fight" at the end was rather disappointing for what it was supposed to be (and in comparison to other OW bosses).