Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"notebene.3190" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > @"Blanche Neige.7241" said: > > > > > An easier solution : make what is forbidden to buy with real money in Belgium sellable/buyable on the trading post. > > > > > > > > This is one possibility that ANet might look into. Players would (probably) pay more for items but it would be accessible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (More of a direct reply to Blanche, but wanted to catch both of you with my question.) I'm pretty ignorant on the topic, so please forgive me if I say something completely off base, but isn't one of the reason a law like this exists to prevent companies from preying on people that are susceptible to gambling-type addictions? If that isn't the case, I digress, but it would seem if you put the forbidden items (those which can be purchased with real money and offer no guaranteed result) on the TP, then what is to stop someone from using all their gold to buy every last forbidden item, and then start spending real money to buy gems to then sell on the exchange for gold, and then use the gold to buy the forbidden items, until they are broke? > > > > This law is an inordinate amount of handholding by the state that stops people who don’t have a problem from buying items with an RNG base. There are a lot of things in life that’s RNG. Even those little dispensers where a kid put a dime in and gets a random trinket out is technically forbidden. This stops people from even buying the RNG mount purchases or from buying Dye packs. > > Oh I wasn't debating the rightness or wrongness of the thing. I have my views on it, and they aren't pertinent. I was just asking (regarding the idea to put the items on the TP as a solution), given what the law is and what it's trying to do (to the best of my understanding), wouldn't putting the 'forbidden' items (for lack of better term, using the term offered) on the TP, because of the RM-Gem exchange, be the exact same problem the law (again, right or wrong) is attempting to avoid? No doubt the players would do that, but it’s rather like alcohol. Ban alcohol and people get around the law by start making it themselves or going to bootleg sellers. Ban the purchase of “gamble boxes” in one place and they’ll go to another place if they have an addiction. The law doesn’t stop addictive behavior. It switches the buying to another site while the law makers congratulate themselves then go off and do something else. It sweeps the problem under the rug and calls it success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boysenberry.1869 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Purchase a bunch of gems. Put GW2 on a laptop. Take a vacation outside of Belgium. Buy lots of RNG boxes. Return to Belgium. Curse because you didn't get what you wanted. Repeat! Alright. A little extreme but that's all I've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"Blanche Neige.7241" said: > > > > > > > An easier solution : make what is forbidden to buy with real money in Belgium sellable/buyable on the trading post. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is one possibility that ANet might look into. Players would (probably) pay more for items but it would be accessible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (More of a direct reply to Blanche, but wanted to catch both of you with my question.) I'm pretty ignorant on the topic, so please forgive me if I say something completely off base, but isn't one of the reason a law like this exists to prevent companies from preying on people that are susceptible to gambling-type addictions? If that isn't the case, I digress, but it would seem if you put the forbidden items (those which can be purchased with real money and offer no guaranteed result) on the TP, then what is to stop someone from using all their gold to buy every last forbidden item, and then start spending real money to buy gems to then sell on the exchange for gold, and then use the gold to buy the forbidden items, until they are broke? > > > > > > > > This law is an inordinate amount of handholding by the state that stops people who don’t have a problem from buying items with an RNG base. There are a lot of things in life that’s RNG. Even those little dispensers where a kid put a dime in and gets a random trinket out is technically forbidden. This stops people from even buying the RNG mount purchases or from buying Dye packs. > > > > > > Oh I wasn't debating the rightness or wrongness of the thing. I have my views on it, and they aren't pertinent. I was just asking (regarding the idea to put the items on the TP as a solution), given what the law is and what it's trying to do (to the best of my understanding), wouldn't putting the 'forbidden' items (for lack of better term, using the term offered) on the TP, because of the RM-Gem exchange, be the exact same problem the law (again, right or wrong) is attempting to avoid? > > > > We'll sort of but ectogambling is still allowed apperently so I don't know how the formulation goes > > Ectogambling doesnt cost real money to use. We'll yes but you could and that was my point in regard to what the previous poster wrote. And technically bl chest also don't cost money to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"Blanche Neige.7241" said: > > > > > > > > An easier solution : make what is forbidden to buy with real money in Belgium sellable/buyable on the trading post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is one possibility that ANet might look into. Players would (probably) pay more for items but it would be accessible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (More of a direct reply to Blanche, but wanted to catch both of you with my question.) I'm pretty ignorant on the topic, so please forgive me if I say something completely off base, but isn't one of the reason a law like this exists to prevent companies from preying on people that are susceptible to gambling-type addictions? If that isn't the case, I digress, but it would seem if you put the forbidden items (those which can be purchased with real money and offer no guaranteed result) on the TP, then what is to stop someone from using all their gold to buy every last forbidden item, and then start spending real money to buy gems to then sell on the exchange for gold, and then use the gold to buy the forbidden items, until they are broke? > > > > > > > > > > This law is an inordinate amount of handholding by the state that stops people who don’t have a problem from buying items with an RNG base. There are a lot of things in life that’s RNG. Even those little dispensers where a kid put a dime in and gets a random trinket out is technically forbidden. This stops people from even buying the RNG mount purchases or from buying Dye packs. > > > > > > > > Oh I wasn't debating the rightness or wrongness of the thing. I have my views on it, and they aren't pertinent. I was just asking (regarding the idea to put the items on the TP as a solution), given what the law is and what it's trying to do (to the best of my understanding), wouldn't putting the 'forbidden' items (for lack of better term, using the term offered) on the TP, because of the RM-Gem exchange, be the exact same problem the law (again, right or wrong) is attempting to avoid? > > > > > > We'll sort of but ectogambling is still allowed apperently so I don't know how the formulation goes > > > > Ectogambling doesnt cost real money to use. > > We'll yes but you could and that was my point in regard to what the previous poster wrote. And technically bl chest also don't cost money to use No, but they arent selling ecto gambling for real world money. They *are* selling Black lion keys for real world money(gems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 I don't really understand the 'Red Diamond'. You can only obtain it with Gold, and it can be exchanged for Gold. Why would anyone _ever_ exchange more than needed to purchase something in the Gem Store? Why exchange Gold for Red Gems, and then exchange it back to Gold at a loss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 This is what happens when you try to deresponsibilize people to an extreme. Blue gems to gold are regulated by how many gems players buy, there is no way you can get a replacement system for that without impacting everyone else. > @"Dante.1763" said: > Ectogambling doesnt cost real money to use. It can. And as a gambler I can tell you it does. As long as you have a gem to gold exchange, it will be used for ecto-gambling. This might not be the primary way to do it, but there's nothing preventing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > This is what happens when you try to deresponsibilize people to an extreme. Blue gems to gold are regulated by how many gems players buy, there is no way you can get a replacement system for that without impacting everyone else. > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > Ectogambling doesnt cost real money to use. > > It can. And as a gambler I can tell you it does. > As long as you have a gem to gold exchange, it will be used for ecto-gambling. This might not be the primary way to do it, but there's nothing preventing it. > > And as i(believe i said earlier), its not directly purchasable through real money like keys are. you *KNOW* you are converting what you purchased directly into a currency so you can gamble. You are not purchasing an item to gamble *directly* like keys or the mount kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 They could easily just drop the random stuff and put them all for fixed prices (like the mount adoption license, they can buy the 1200 gem select-a-mount ticket). They could easily do the same for dies, click on a dye on the dye page, pay 120 gems or something like that, unlock the dye. Same thing for BLC skins, go to wardrobe, click the outfit/skin you want, and unlock it from there. Can even do the same for everything, and remove the "bloat" on the store that they dread so much, and make everything much fairer. Or admit, that the items aren't RNG to make the "cheaper" or that they aren't temporary to make the gem store more streamlined, but it's all about maximizing profit and really shady (door to door salesmen level of shady) marketing practices. Because, lets be honest, sooner or later, the dusty old men will leave office, and a more tech savvy generation will be in govermnent, and more and more countries will start regulating micro-transactions because a lot of games have very dubious practices with those, this came about because of Battlefront 2's debacle, but sooner or later had to happen for one game or another. You can't keep allowing stuff like what happened to a cousin of mine when her 5YO son bought 900€ worth of cash items on a Candy Crush game without realizing what he was doing. It was a way to beat the game faster, and it charged her payment plan directly, so only notice she got was when the bill came due. Not to mention that these are traps for addictive people masking gambling inside other genres of games, etc. This isn't done innocently, there's people that know these things will happen and make a conscious push towards exploiting that. I'm not saying that Arena Net did or didn't do that maliciously, but that overal in general these practices are negative and need to be curbed, Belgium might have gone on the extreme level, but i think they're in the right, and sooner or later the rest of EU will follow. And if Arena Net keeps dragging their feet, they'll end up with half their market gone the same way that Belgium did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"notebene.3190" said: > > > > > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Blanche Neige.7241" said: > > > > > > > > > An easier solution : make what is forbidden to buy with real money in Belgium sellable/buyable on the trading post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is one possibility that ANet might look into. Players would (probably) pay more for items but it would be accessible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (More of a direct reply to Blanche, but wanted to catch both of you with my question.) I'm pretty ignorant on the topic, so please forgive me if I say something completely off base, but isn't one of the reason a law like this exists to prevent companies from preying on people that are susceptible to gambling-type addictions? If that isn't the case, I digress, but it would seem if you put the forbidden items (those which can be purchased with real money and offer no guaranteed result) on the TP, then what is to stop someone from using all their gold to buy every last forbidden item, and then start spending real money to buy gems to then sell on the exchange for gold, and then use the gold to buy the forbidden items, until they are broke? > > > > > > > > > > > > This law is an inordinate amount of handholding by the state that stops people who don’t have a problem from buying items with an RNG base. There are a lot of things in life that’s RNG. Even those little dispensers where a kid put a dime in and gets a random trinket out is technically forbidden. This stops people from even buying the RNG mount purchases or from buying Dye packs. > > > > > > > > > > Oh I wasn't debating the rightness or wrongness of the thing. I have my views on it, and they aren't pertinent. I was just asking (regarding the idea to put the items on the TP as a solution), given what the law is and what it's trying to do (to the best of my understanding), wouldn't putting the 'forbidden' items (for lack of better term, using the term offered) on the TP, because of the RM-Gem exchange, be the exact same problem the law (again, right or wrong) is attempting to avoid? > > > > > > > > We'll sort of but ectogambling is still allowed apperently so I don't know how the formulation goes > > > > > > Ectogambling doesnt cost real money to use. > > > > We'll yes but you could and that was my point in regard to what the previous poster wrote. And technically bl chest also don't cost money to use > > No, but they arent selling ecto gambling for real world money. They *are* selling Black lion keys for real world money(gems). Please read the post I responded to to get the context I was responding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNecrosanct.4028 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > No, but they arent selling ecto gambling for real world money. They *are* selling Black lion keys for real world money(gems). It doesn't matter that ANet isn't selling ectogambling for real life money. The point is that it is possible to waste a fortune on it by buying gems and converting them to gold to continue gambling. It also doesn't matter that BL keys are sold for money/gems. There are ways to get them without spending either money or gems (even guaranteed ways, like doing the personal story). I get the point you're trying to make. It's just that it doesn't hold up with the examples you've given. The way I understand it, the Belgian law focuses on lootboxes only. If they truly wanted to prevent people from gambling all their money away in GW2, they would've made it impossible to convert gems to gold. Or go even further and prevent them from buying gems at all, because there are other things in the gemstore that also have RNG loot (dye packs, for instance). This Belgian lootcrate law is anything but an airtight system and still leaves options for people to lose more money than they can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambent.6375 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Would probably be easier to replace Black lion Keys in the gem store with Black Lion Statues( (For Belgium players only, keys remain for everyone else) That way they will still have access to exclusive Black Lion Chest items, when they arrive on the statue merchant. Yes, they will be paying more for less, but we all shouldn't have to kneel down because of Belgium's laws. As for the packs they can just have versions where the rng dye, or keys are removed, or replaced with something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"Blanche Neige.7241" said: > > An easier solution : make what is forbidden to buy with real money in Belgium sellable/buyable on the trading post. > > This is one possibility that ANet might look into. Players would (probably) pay more for items but it would be accessible. > > but you can buy gold with gems so that is potentially inviting legal troubles and I think non-compliance has a hefty fine? Isn't this the wrong place to be having this discussion? If you are Belgian and you disagree with this. It should be conversation you should be having with your government representative. Probably should have had that conversation before the changes. > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > This Belgian lootcrate law is anything but an airtight system and still leaves options for people to lose more money than they can afford. Meh ... even if they tried to cover that for lootboxes there are still plenty of other ways for people to lose their money via poor decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Anet is not EA. Why would you think they would actively try and circumvent the laws? Especially since they hit the big stop button entirely by disabling all that stuff for Belgium folks at 1st. I really doubt they want to make unnecessary waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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