Afterlife and why people are upset about death (heavy PoF and Season 4, Episode 4 spoilers)

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > >Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact.

> >

> > I intend to go on in here with my little theory that lowered ambient magical levels (caused by elder dragons activity so far) is at fault in here - so basically we can't pull out all these stunts anymore, because there is not enought ambient arcane juice in out proximity to power them up.

> >

> > with livia cheating the system same way she mantained her young body ;)

> >

> > but feel free to not take it as canon that's just my theory that fits the hole decently (based on dialogue lines from asuran ps)

>

> Thank you for your explanation attempt, but I am afraid this might go against established lore. The elder dragons feed on magic, meaning that they awaken when the level of ambient magic is high. Thus, before they woke up, the magic level was high. After that, it might have gone down a little…. up until we killed 2 of them and released so much ambient magic that it coagulates into daily mystic coins by now. I am afraid the level of ambient magic never was lower than in GW1 times, which means that explanations based on such are rather problematic.

 

well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

 

as for magic released from killing those dragons - it's not arcane energy they'd "fart" out when asleep, but volatile draconic magic - and there is whole side story dedicated to side effects of absorbing this one, so it'd not be high stretch to consider this one not being exacly "safe" to channel.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Hashar.6082" said:

> So, in PoF the Commander dies, temporarily loses memory and personality (which seems to be an event unique to the traumatized souls from the Domain of the Lost), but eventually regains them and continues to function past bodily death. An ally NPC whose name I forget also restores her former self and eventually ends up helping in Kormir's library.

> In S4E4, we meet Snaff and Eir and communicate with Glint, who oversees some portion of the Mists and protects those who venture there. Both Snaff and Eir appear to have their personalities, agency, and cognitive abilities completely preserved; from PoF, we know that they aren't just Mist echoes without self-awareness (or at least they don't have to be, as true afterlife existence is proven to be possible).

> Thus, the question: why be mad at Logan for indirectly causing Glint's and Snaff's deaths, if they both still exist and can be interacted with? Why is Taimi afraid to die, if she knows she'll just end up hanging out with her perfect mentor and discussing science? Why did Blish decide to transfer his mind into a golem, which apparently made true final death (i.e. nonexistence) possible for him (in the form of taking his higher functions offline), if he could just let his body expire and continue his existence in the Mists? Why do the people of Tyria mourn their dead if they'll just meet them again in the afterlife; death should be an extremely frustrating inconvenience at most, but definitely not something to despair over?

> The only possible explanation I'm seeing is that very few ghosts actually get to have a decent afterlife, but that should still produce considerably more hope and less fear.

 

The same fear as we all human have- we don't know what's death, we believe there is some kind of afterlife (many of us), but still there is this: I do not wanna die...

 

Taimi for example will no longer be able to study and bring something new to the science, even Snaff could only leave the Mists only for a short while.

 

 

BTW If this information from A Star to Guide Us doesn't involve Zojja in the future story, then the whole Taimi's story is pointless. Maybe she will be able to make her life longer with some medicine, but for some illnesses there are no cure, and Taimi's one is very much not curable.

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

 

Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you remember the exact story instance by any chance? While I like the Asura, I admit not caring too much about there personal story lines, so I might have missed that quote. I am not sure if they were awake long enough to gather enough ambient magic to have such an impact though. It is rather implied that they mostly consumed artefacts with high concentrations of magic. At least in Zhaitans case we know that for sure, while Primordus might snack on some dwarven artefacts and Mordremoth was being fed by a Leyline. I would be surprised if 200 Years were enough for them to consume such a high amount of ambient magic, seeing as their last reign lasted long enough to have such devastating effects on the world.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> I'm seeing a lot being made of 'fear of the unknown' throughout this thread, but, at least in my experience, and the experiences of those close to me, that isn't the main reason to fear death. It's loss, and that is very much still a factor in what we know of the afterlife in GW2. Even if you can be assured that your soul will live on, you lose your home. You lose the pursuits you've dedicated your existence up to that point to. You lose the people you surrounded yourself with, your loved ones, your colleagues, your social contacts. You lose your pets, you lose your keepsakes, you lose your sense of place in the world. [You lose physical sensation.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)#In_Dunes_of_Despair_.28outpost.29) You lose everything except awareness, knowledge, and memory, and in most of the cases, you lose it forever. (The humans, at least, maintain a number of separate afterlives, so even reuniting after death isn't a sure thing.) From there, you can fall headlong into the debate on whether identity is circumstantial, but regardless, that is potential for a devastating amount of loss and grief and existential angst.

>

> I would argue that could justify some terror.

 

This is a good point. Especially the loss of sensation would most likely feel terrible at first. On the other hand, we can see that many spirits are not that bothered by it, still doing what they liked when they were alive (lots of traders for example). I think the loss of family is also a great point, since we even have a spirit of a mother that watches over her child but does not interact with her family, but on the other hand we have Ewyn’s friends actively comforting him even in death. Regardless, your text is another good example why death might scare the average tyrian.

 

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> Ah, I see. That's a fair point, and it's one that's bothered me as well, but to raise the most convincing counter-argument I've seen: was the knowledge lost, or outmoded? Sanctuary combines the effects of all four of the protection spells you listed, extends the benefit to everyone nearby instead of a single target, prevents the enemy from approaching, and creates a field that can be further exploited, all with one spell. Mesmer's changed focus, which is why I pick on it so much; the hexes are gone, often without replacement, but in exchange they got portals, invisibility, chronomancer nonsense, and more. Necromancers have lost a little in the virility of their curses, but the staying power provided by the new ways they utilize life force make them a much greater threat in this game than I ever found them to be in the first. Even if Grenth's Balance is preserved in a tome somewhere, it'd be a hard sell when one could be learning the Scourge skillset instead.

>

> (Naturally, none of this applies to resurrection, which is why people hold onto the 'gods did it' argument so tightly despite the only basis being a couple of off-the-cuff comments in pre-release interviews; it's the only reasoning that comes close to making sense of the loss of such a vital and ubiquitous skill.)

 

I personally still believe that most (not all, but the vast majority) of the skills from GW2 can’t hold a candle to the effect of GW1 skills. Hexes are imo the best example: They were efficient and powerful. Even if the focus shifted (which is not a bad decision, after all the Mesmer from today may value other things in combat than their GW1 counterpart), it is astonishing that we don’t see them anywhere in modern times. At least some people should have seen their potential and at least conserved them. Why would they simply stop using them? Its like a new medical technique being developed: While most people will adapt this one, as long as the older techniques have their uses, they will never get forgotten. We still stitch wounds up after all, which dates back quite a long time, because it is still useful. While the field opened up to more techniques a medic is supposed to know, that is no excuse to just forget a fundamental skill. Hexes are the same way. I find portal and clones enjoyable, I like blink being copied from the assassins… but I cannot comprehend how not only a profession would waste such enormous potential in skills by ignoring them, but how such arts seem to be lost as a whole.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

 

> well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

 

That alarming rate is with five of the dragons awake, however. That wasn't the case for the full 250 years, and we do have [dev confirmation](https://www.guildwars2roleplayers.com/forum/page/1/m/2737230/viewthread/9902543-2rps-lore-interview-arenanet) that overall magic levels at the start of GW2 are higher than they were at the end of GW1. If that's true... doing a quick bit of simplistic math, that indicates that up to the start of the game, the dragons were consuming magic at less than twice the rate they were leaking it while sleeping. There's some... interesting implications to be gleaned from that. It suggests that the waking portion of their cycle may be quite long, even without us going around prolonging it.

 

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

>

> Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you remember the exact story instance by any chance?

 

[This one](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Field_Test), and its Priory counterpart. It's a conclusion Gorr reaches upon confirmation that all dragon minions feed on the ambient magic around them.

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > I'm seeing a lot being made of 'fear of the unknown' throughout this thread, but, at least in my experience, and the experiences of those close to me, that isn't the main reason to fear death. It's loss, and that is very much still a factor in what we know of the afterlife in GW2. Even if you can be assured that your soul will live on, you lose your home. You lose the pursuits you've dedicated your existence up to that point to. You lose the people you surrounded yourself with, your loved ones, your colleagues, your social contacts. You lose your pets, you lose your keepsakes, you lose your sense of place in the world. [You lose physical sensation.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)#In_Dunes_of_Despair_.28outpost.29) You lose everything except awareness, knowledge, and memory, and in most of the cases, you lose it forever. (The humans, at least, maintain a number of separate afterlives, so even reuniting after death isn't a sure thing.) From there, you can fall headlong into the debate on whether identity is circumstantial, but regardless, that is potential for a devastating amount of loss and grief and existential angst.

> >

> > I would argue that could justify some terror.

>

> This is a good point. Especially the loss of sensation would most likely feel terrible at first. On the other hand, we can see that many spirits are not that bothered by it, still doing what they liked when they were alive (lots of traders for example).

 

That was part of my point, actually. You're referring to ghosts, yes? The ones in the Crystal Desert may be a special case- it's indicated that at least some of them, perhaps all of the ones we encounter, were trapped there by the Flameseeker Prophecies- but for the rest, that means they're clinging to their way of life. Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

>

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > Ah, I see. That's a fair point, and it's one that's bothered me as well, but to raise the most convincing counter-argument I've seen: was the knowledge lost, or outmoded? Sanctuary combines the effects of all four of the protection spells you listed, extends the benefit to everyone nearby instead of a single target, prevents the enemy from approaching, and creates a field that can be further exploited, all with one spell. Mesmer's changed focus, which is why I pick on it so much; the hexes are gone, often without replacement, but in exchange they got portals, invisibility, chronomancer nonsense, and more. Necromancers have lost a little in the virility of their curses, but the staying power provided by the new ways they utilize life force make them a much greater threat in this game than I ever found them to be in the first. Even if Grenth's Balance is preserved in a tome somewhere, it'd be a hard sell when one could be learning the Scourge skillset instead.

> >

> > (Naturally, none of this applies to resurrection, which is why people hold onto the 'gods did it' argument so tightly despite the only basis being a couple of off-the-cuff comments in pre-release interviews; it's the only reasoning that comes close to making sense of the loss of such a vital and ubiquitous skill.)

>

> I personally still believe that most (not all, but the vast majority) of the skills from GW2 can’t hold a candle to the effect of GW1 skills. Hexes are imo the best example: They were efficient and powerful. Even if the focus shifted (which is not a bad decision, after all the Mesmer from today may value other things in combat than their GW1 counterpart), it is astonishing that we don’t see them anywhere in modern times. At least some people should have seen their potential and at least conserved them. Why would they simply stop using them? Its like a new medical technique being developed: While most people will adapt this one, as long as the older techniques have their uses, they will never get forgotten. We still stitch wounds up after all, which dates back quite a long time, because it is still useful. While the field opened up to more techniques a medic is supposed to know, that is no excuse to just forget a fundamental skill. Hexes are the same way. I find portal and clones enjoyable, I like blink being copied from the assassins… but I cannot comprehend how not only a profession would waste such enormous potential in skills by ignoring them, but how such arts seem to be lost as a whole.

>

I do agree, particularly in the mesmer's case. There's a staggering amount of utility they've lost in switching over to the more tangible effects we see in GW2. At least a bit of it still seems to be around- the novels show three mesmers reading minds and a couple others sending mental messages, for instance- but given how unclear it is what may or may not still be around, it's something I'm on the fence about.

 

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> [This one](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Field_Test), and its Priory counterpart. It's a conclusion Gorr reaches upon confirmation that all dragon minions feed on the ambient magic around them.

 

Thank you very much for the source.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> That was part of my point, actually. You're referring to ghosts, yes? The ones in the Crystal Desert may be a special case- it's indicated that at least some of them, perhaps all of the ones we encounter, were trapped there by the Flameseeker Prophecies- but for the rest, that means they're clinging to their way of life. Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

 

Yes, since there were so many around. I agree that the ghosts seem to cling to their former life, but wouldn’t this seem natural to most Tyrians who stumbled upon them? I am pretty sure that if I met a ghost in the real world I would have to rethink my view on the world, but if I lived in a world of magic and met a ghost, I think that any real fear of death would become more bearable. Not only can I now know for certain that there must be at least something after death, I might even get the chance to continue what I did in my life. I am no even sure if passing onto the final destination would appear to be such a good deal – why not just stick around like the spirits in the tombs, with most of my friends I knew in life? Sure, this may be unlikely, but the human psyche can be great at ignoring chances (which may be the reason why humans are surprisingly bad at stochastics, compared to other types of math).

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

>Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

 

We really should ask Druuburt about that ?

 

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> I do agree, particularly in the mesmer's case. There's a staggering amount of utility they've lost in switching over to the more tangible effects we see in GW2. At least a bit of it still seems to be around- the novels show three mesmers reading minds and a couple others sending mental messages, for instance- but given how unclear it is what may or may not still be around, it's something I'm on the fence about.

 

I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

 

 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> That alarming rate is with five of the dragons awake, however. That wasn't the case for the full 250 years, and we do have [dev confirmation](https://www.guildwars2roleplayers.com/forum/page/1/m/2737230/viewthread/9902543-2rps-lore-interview-arenanet) that overall magic levels at the start of GW2 are higher than they were at the end of GW1.

 

I assume you are refering to

 

>Since the dragons have been waking in recent years, one might assume that magic is at its peak right now, and the dragons are here to drain the world. They tap the world’s magic, consume it, and reduce the overall level of available magic in the world.

 

part

buuuuuuuuuuuuuut

GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

("one might assume" is hardly confirmation tho, but point is fair enought this thing is happening for a tad too short timespan to actually inhibit certain areas of spells)

 

>@"Nikolai.3648" said:

>I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end.

 

b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

 

Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., [Fragility](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragility_%28effect%29)When developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

 

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

 

Nitpickery, but the last Elder Dragon woke up during the plot (Mordremoth). And since the Elder Dragons were awake, wouldn't that mean since their awakening the magic had been going down (until we killed one and released all of that ED's magic into the wild, that is).

 

And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it, that would indicate that Tyria was never at the peak - at least not longer than 5 minutes - since it didn't properly reach said peak before Primordus woke up, and the increase in magic would have began slowing down at that moment. Presuming that the Elder Dragons all release magic at the same rate, and do not eat magic faster than they release it, then magic would have stopped increasing when Jormag, the third Elder Dragon to wake, woke up - approximately 150 years before GW2.

 

If they eat magic faster than release it (entirely possible), then it could have begun to drain once Primordus woke up 50 years after GW1. Given that the DSD woke up shortly after, the Elder Dragons just need to consume at twice the rate for the amount of magic to become a standstill at 200-150 years prior to GW2.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

>

> Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., [Fragility](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragility_%28effect%29)When developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

>

> > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

>

> Nitpickery, but the last Elder Dragon woke up during the plot (Mordremoth). And since the Elder Dragons were awake, wouldn't that mean since their awakening the magic had been going down (until we killed one and released all of that ED's magic into the wild, that is).

 

my bad, forgot the super-hidden-no-one-expected-inquisition-jungle-dragon :P

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it, that would indicate that Tyria was never at the peak - at least not longer than 5 minutes - since it didn't properly reach said peak before Primordus woke up, and the increase in magic would have began slowing down at that moment. Presuming that the Elder Dragons all release magic at the same rate, and do not eat magic faster than they release it, then magic would have stopped increasing when Jormag, the third Elder Dragon to wake, woke up - approximately 150 years before GW2.

 

fair point, the part of peak was taken from dev's interview fella listed above

(speaking of nitpickery: just because they woke up prematurely does not rule out local peak - that is if we look at function of ambient magic level over time and go by maths definitions ;) )

 

but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.

I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> If they eat magic faster than release it (entirely possible), then it could have begun to drain once Primordus woke up 50 years after GW1. Given that the DSD woke up shortly after, the Elder Dragons just need to consume at twice the rate for the amount of magic to become a standstill at 200-150 years prior to GW2.

 

 

well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

 

so............. if we will not make assumption from the earlier block my headcanon theorem could still be viable depending on numbers we are lacking :D

Thanks Konig ^-^

 

(on a side not to that theorem, since alot of magic were "recently" released back into system, outside of volatile unboundness of that magic, there could also be aspect to consider for lack of immediate return of some of these spells, is that the "hows" could be forgoten with generation shift since it ceased to work)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.

> I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

 

Zhaitan, the fourth, did wake up about a century prior to GW2. Primordus and Kralkatorrik both woke up about 50 years late, which is why the DSD and Mordremoth woke up so shortly after as opposed to 50 years after like we have between Jormag and Zhaitan (should note we don't know the exact awakening date of the DSD; we originally thought it was 50 years prior to GW2, between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik, but we got unspoken confirmation in S2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag; given the 50 year thing and both Primordus and Kralkatorrik losing their herald champions while asleep, this would suggest the DSD woke up about 50 years prior to Jormag, around the same time as Primordus, but this is still speculative in the end).

 

> well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

 

Well, we do have two numbers. The Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around 11,000 years ago (circa 10,000 BE), while we're told dwarven civilization and Glint's memories (she doesn't remember (much) from before she was freed by the Forgotten) being 3,000 years ago (thus circa 1,700 BE). We were told the Forgotten arrived on the world in 1,769 BE, though we also got mursaat records claiming they were around 10,000 years ago. There are suggestions in Edge of Destiny that Kralkatorrik was already asleep at the time Glint was freed from his control, though (but given that she hid the races from the Elder Dragons this is hard to believe).

 

Unfortunately, it's hard to tell whether these two are simple contradictions with the writers constantly going back and forth between "10,000 years ago" and "3,000 years ago". But presuming they're not unintended contradictions, this would put the Elder Dragons' time of being awake at roughly 7,000 years, and 3,000 years asleep. This doesn't seem all too likely IMO though (ArenaNet **seriously** needs to get their facts straight on their last Dragonrise lore dates - was it 10k or 3k years ago? Was Kralk asleep when Glint was freed or not? Etc. etc.)

 

But even if we knew exactly when they woke up and went to sleep last time, there were quite a few kerfunkles that could have altered those dates just as much as how early they woke up this time. We have the creation of the bloodstone, which likely put them to sleep early, as well as the gods releasing magic from the Bloodstone (just to revoke it - kinda? - and pull magic out of Zhaitan to empower it), but then the gods splitting the Bloodstone, causing it to leak as a 7th source of magic being added to the world (if it didn't leak beforehand, that is), and then Abaddon's death adding a bunch of magic to the world temporarily, along with major magical cataclysms of Abaddon's defeat (creation of Crystal Desert/Desolation), the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, and the Foefire.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.

> > I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

>

> Zhaitan, the fourth, did wake up about a century prior to GW2. Primordus and Kralkatorrik both woke up about 50 years late, which is why the DSD and Mordremoth woke up so shortly after as opposed to 50 years after like we have between Jormag and Zhaitan (should note we don't know the exact awakening date of the DSD; we originally thought it was 50 years prior to GW2, between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik, but we got unspoken confirmation in S2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag; given the 50 year thing and both Primordus and Kralkatorrik losing their herald champions while asleep, this would suggest the DSD woke up about 50 years prior to Jormag, around the same time as Primordus, but this is still speculative in the end).

 

thanks for the timetable :D

now depending on consumption rates (and levels and other boring numbers) it could actually make sense for some "chunkier" spells to simply "cease to work" based on my little bit of headcannon theorem ^-^

 

we don't have estimation when those thing ceased to work even roughtly, do we?

 

> > well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

>

> Well, we do have two numbers. The Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around 11,000 years ago (circa 10,000 BE), while we're told dwarven civilization and Glint's memories (she doesn't remember (much) from before she was freed by the Forgotten) being 3,000 years ago (thus circa 1,700 BE). We were told the Forgotten arrived on the world in 1,769 BE, though we also got mursaat records claiming they were around 10,000 years ago. There are suggestions in Edge of Destiny that Kralkatorrik was already asleep at the time Glint was freed from his control, though (but given that she hid the races from the Elder Dragons this is hard to believe).

>

> Unfortunately, it's hard to tell whether these two are simple contradictions with the writers constantly going back and forth between "10,000 years ago" and "3,000 years ago". But presuming they're not unintended contradictions, this would put the Elder Dragons' time of being awake at roughly 7,000 years, and 3,000 years asleep. This doesn't seem all too likely IMO though (ArenaNet **seriously** needs to get their facts straight on their last Dragonrise lore dates - was it 10k or 3k years ago? Was Kralk asleep when Glint was freed or not? Etc. etc.)

>

> But even if we knew exactly when they woke up and went to sleep last time, there were quite a few kerfunkles that could have altered those dates just as much as how early they woke up this time. We have the creation of the bloodstone, which likely put them to sleep early, as well as the gods releasing magic from the Bloodstone (just to revoke it - kinda? - and pull magic out of Zhaitan to empower it), but then the gods splitting the Bloodstone, causing it to leak as a 7th source of magic being added to the world (if it didn't leak beforehand, that is), and then Abaddon's death adding a bunch of magic to the world temporarily, along with major magical cataclysms of Abaddon's defeat (creation of Crystal Desert/Desolation), the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, and the Foefire.

 

well I suppose it would require numbers from the cycle before dwarves, mursaat and all that mess.....

 

at least assuming those guys went down without putting a fight, and assuming nothing woke dragons early during previous cycle....

[norbes.3620]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

 

> b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

 

and livia as some old hag of 280 years old is a Special case here cuz she indeed lived in the time were hexes were common

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

 

and

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

>

> Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., [Fragility](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fragility_%28effect%29)When developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

 

I was quite aware of this, but Livia is a survivor from a time in which Hexes were wildly used. To quote myself:

 

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

>You mentioned the Mesmer: The fact that Livia uses fragility (a Mesmer hex, nice to see so many GW1 survivors picked up Mesmer as their secondary profession, though I am happy they included that mechanic for those few cases in GW2 at all, it is a nice touch) means that this simple, but effective hex, simply got forgotten in these few years? ALL of the hexes did? Just a few condition applications are left from all the former glory of Mesmers and Necromancers? How?! That is such an immense loss of knowledge.

 

Another strange thing is this:

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it,

 

I still find it weird that this pulse of energy should have reached the dragons, since it happened in the realm of torment and seemingly did not affect the rest of Tyria at all.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> I still find it weird that this pulse of energy should have reached the dragons, since it happened in the realm of torment and seemingly did not affect the rest of Tyria at all.

 

Zhaitan's death didn't affect Tyria in any notable way at all, really. It wouldn't be strange for the temporary release of magic that Primordus sensed to not affect Tyria.

 

And keep in mind that, at the moment, Abaddon was trying to combine Tyria and the Realm of Torment together. He had even completed doing so in certain regions such as the [Nightfallen Garden](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nightfallen_Garden), and nearly so with [Jahai Bluffs](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nightfallen_Jahai); it's rather unclear if [Marga Coast](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nundu_Bay) was transformed or not, some dialogue implies that mission takes place in Melonni's mind, while other dialogue implies it happened, but only momentarily due to our actions. It would make sense that, at the time of Nightfall's later half, Tyria and the Realm of Torment were very close.

 

And honestly, given that [the journal for Nightfall missions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls) states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> And honestly, given that [the journal for Nightfall missions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls) states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

 

A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

 

well a drill into leyline hub seemed sufficient to awake mordy.....

 

also note there is a magnitude difference between blasting of a single penisula, and blowing up two realms combined

 

but then if we are getting into that sort of things, please also note how they overslept 6 extremely powerfull magical entities walking nearly ontop of one of them.....

 

but then if you think about it maybe, it's cumulative thing - like when someone sleeps very deeply single poke won't wake them up, but multiple pokes will. Maybe Abaddons destroction was simply the tipping poke in consecutive chains of pokes?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

And yet thats the explanation given, it's entirely possible all of Abaddon's magic, divine and otherwise, going wild was even more powerful than what sank Orr in orders of magnitude given what we know about the Gods.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > And honestly, given that [the journal for Nightfall missions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls) states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

>

> A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

 

Is there a difference between a whiff and "a spike important enough for them to awaken" when magical levels are already nearing the peak as it is?

 

And would you really expect the full magic of a god who was strong enough to win a 2 on 1 fight with the other gods, who's defeat caused a sea over twice the size of Orr and its entire southern coast to be forever altered, including creating a tear between this world and the next, to be less magic than a spell that sunk Orr?

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > That alarming rate is with five of the dragons awake, however. That wasn't the case for the full 250 years, and we do have [dev confirmation](https://www.guildwars2roleplayers.com/forum/page/1/m/2737230/viewthread/9902543-2rps-lore-interview-arenanet) that overall magic levels at the start of GW2 are higher than they were at the end of GW1.

>

> I assume you are refering to

>

> >Since the dragons have been waking in recent years, one might assume that magic is at its peak right now, and the dragons are here to drain the world. They tap the world’s magic, consume it, and reduce the overall level of available magic in the world.

>

> part

> buuuuuuuuuuuuuut

> GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

> ("one might assume" is hardly confirmation tho, but point is fair enought this thing is happening for a tad too short timespan to actually inhibit certain areas of spells)

 

Right question, but you're cutting out almost all of it. The question was why Bloodstone limitations aren't as iron-clad anymore- that is, why professions can do some things in GW2 that they couldn't in GW1. The answer was that the leaking off the dragons has made magic more powerful and opened up new possibilities. That means that environmental magic is higher in GW2 than it was in GW1. Any theories we craft around how the dragon cycle works needs to come to terms with that... or wave it off as not being relevant. I personally don't believe interviews have an expiration date, but there are those who do.

 

(The 'one might assume' bit was in regards to magic being at it's peak, that it wouldn't go any higher. The parts indicating that it was already higher than GW1 contained no such qualifiers.)

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > And honestly, given that [the journal for Nightfall missions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls) states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

> >

> > A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

>

> Is there a difference between a whiff and "a spike important enough for them to awaken" when magical levels are already nearing the peak as it is?

>

> And would you really expect the full magic of a god who was strong enough to win a 2 on 1 fight with the other gods, who's defeat caused a sea over twice the size of Orr and its entire southern coast to be forever altered, including creating a tear between this world and the next, to be less magic than a spell that sunk Orr?

 

One spell did however unleash its energy with all its devastating power, while the other one was absorbed to such an extent that people standing right next to it did not suffer any damage from it. I hope you understand my surprise that the latter one is supposed to have been the crucial one, especially since it happened in another realm, as connected as the worlds might have been at that time.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The Commander was in the center of Balthazar's released power, and suffered no lasting effects despite being in the literal center of a giant vortex of magic. This same giant vortex of magic forced Aurene to grow from infant to teen, and empowered Kralkatorrik.

 

Just because the GW1 PC came out with no damage in the end, doesn't mean it wasn't a powerful unleashment of magic.

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The Commander was in the center of Balthazar's released power, and suffered no lasting effects despite being in the literal center of a giant vortex of magic. This same giant vortex of magic forced Aurene to grow from infant to teen, and empowered Kralkatorrik.

>

> Just because the GW1 PC came out with no damage in the end, doesn't mean it wasn't a powerful unleashment of magic.

 

To be honest I personally do not think that Balthazar´s death and us getting away basically unharmed makes much sense. Either Aurene and our favorite crystal dragon were able to absorb all of the energy so fast that we were safe - In that case it makes not much sense that the ambient magic level should have risen – or we should have been hurt far more than depicted (which would be more realistic, but it’s a world full of magic, so…). If we apply the same to GW1, then either we should have been hurt, or Kormir and her divine gift were enough to absorb it all, in which case the explanation for Primordus awakening does not work. While your point is in theory a fair comparison, I would not use it justify some inconsistency from an event 250 years ago, that only turns up to begin with if you want to make the event seem bigger than it was actually implied to be, because I dislike using a badly written scenario to justify another badly written explanation. There is also the problem that Kormirs gift was most likely hand fitted to work on Abaddon, which makes it even more unlikely that enough energy could get away.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Personally, I've been figuring on the 'bump' happening in the pause before Kormir ran into the cloud. She spends about thirty seconds trying to convince the PC that throwing herself into an impossibly powerful maelstrom is a good idea, and there's about another fifteen seconds after that before she manages to pull it all back into herself. You've got to figure that an event powerful enough to destroy the world could cause a lot of ripples in the space of forty-five seconds.

 

As far as us standing in those magical maelstroms unharmed... a PC has done it at least three times that I can think of (Abaddon's death, Balthazar's death, Mordremoth's death) without suffering immediate ill effects. It seems like intense magic concentrations aren't predictable in the sense of on-the-spot personal consequences- something we also see with the ley lines, where some creatures that come into contact with them go insane and become bounties, other are empowered without seeming to go insane (but become bounties anyway), and others are seemingly unaffected, or, as in the case of the PC, don't feel the effects until some time has passed.

 

The exception is the Bloodstone explosion, but on the other hand, bloodstone has been indicated to have a number of unique properties, especially when it comes to interactions with souls and destabilizing psyches. We don't have enough data to say whether it was the magic or the magic's unique properties that drove the Pact and Mantle mad.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> To be honest I personally do not think that Balthazar´s death and us getting away basically unharmed makes much sense.

 

Doesn't change the fact that it is the case in both scenarios.

 

Facts are facts even if they're bizarre facts.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> Personally, I've been figuring on the 'bump' happening in the pause before Kormir ran into the cloud. She spends about thirty seconds trying to convince the PC that throwing herself into an impossibly powerful maelstrom is a good idea, and there's about another fifteen seconds after that before she manages to pull it all back into herself. You've got to figure that an event powerful enough to destroy the world could cause a lot of ripples in the space of forty-five seconds.

 

Closer to a minute, since you got about 15 seconds where everyone stares in awe and worry about the energy's unleashing and its potential to destroy everything before Kormir realizes this is what the gods meant with the special gift.

[Castigator.3470]

> @"Nikolai.3648" said:

> To be honest I personally do not think that Balthazar´s death and us getting away basically unharmed makes much sense. Either Aurene and our favorite crystal dragon were able to absorb all of the energy so fast that we were safe - In that case it makes not much sense that the ambient magic level should have risen – or we should have been hurt far more than depicted (which would be more realistic, but it’s a world full of magic, so…).

To be fair, it makes some amount of sense, considering the commander is technically a dragon champion. We're to Aurene, what the Claw was to Jormag, or the Great Destroyer to Primordus. I guess we inherit some of her powers because of that.