Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Pifil.5193 said: > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > @Pifil.5193 said: > > > It doesn't _need_ to happen and goes against the fundamental design intents of the racial skills, they're there for flavour and that's all. > > > > > > ArenaNet do not want a situation where any race is better at a profession than the others. Not to mention the headaches from trying to balance 5 racial elites with 45 other traitlines and hundreds of skills. > > > > mounts goes against the fundamental nature of guild wars 2 as a whole and the franchise, we had waypoints but they still did it? So there is no reason they cant make this work. The eliet specs function similarly, You will never see a spellbreaker in raiding but you will see a scourage as the spellbreaker was built for pvp which they even came out and flat out said. "Some of the eliet specs are built more for pvp than pve", what your afraid of is already happening and has happened for sometime now all im asking for is for each race to have something special for them and those who play them. > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > Mounts don't go against the fundamental nature of GW2. Waypoints are a fast travel feature, not part of the fundamental nature of GW2. Mounts are another system. > > What I was talking about is balancing 5 racial elites with all 9 professions. That will inevitably end up with one of two situations, the first is that where one race becomes the best choice for at least profession, so for example charr could become the best warrior because of their elite spec. The other is that the racial specs are worse than the current options in all races and all professions and no one uses them. So they will either never be used or will be the new meta, neither seems like a good option to me. your looking at this one dimensionally and I have explained this, They all will be good and they dont change your class they just offer new utilities and F1 -6 abilities. Its NO DIFFERENT Than an Eliet spec but its for you as a player of X-race. They do the same things, they just have a different way about getting to those results and the feel in which they offer. It by no means will make Charr warrior the only good warrior, it just offers them a way to do things which fits them as a Charr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Rika.7249 said: > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can NEVER guarantee this. Ever. Unless you purposefully keep them underpowered, someone somewhere is going to scream because their full asura-account can't raid anymore due to charrs being the best raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > make them strong enough to stand up with the other specs, but not stronger than them? So make them capable but like with anything else its how you use those skills, and in what situations that they could and might shine? Its no different then current Specs we get each expansion. > > > > > > > > > > Dude, they can't even make the 9 elite specs stand up to each other, have you taken a look at scrapper/necro? Now you're asking them to throw in cross-balance of potentially 27*5 specs? > > > > > > > > it would be five spec's and they would function like Eliet spec's and take the place of Eliet spec's unless they felt they could make them work alongside our current new specs. Otherwise it would just be racial eliets where you choose which one you want, and IF they even offered us the ability to use it might come out to 20 something specs or they could just give us ALL of them on different F1 - F6 abilties and let us use them alongside some utilities. And the only ones who would need 6 F1 abilities would be the humans so they can fumble through their avatars, Norn would need 4 as would the others really. > > > > > > > > This means they would need reworks, and new models but they could still function properly and add in a decent amount of gameplay and besides that they would only need to do this ONCE. Unless they add a new race, which is their choice. > > > > > > Except adding a racial elite (NOT ELIET) would not remove the professions' weapon skills, meaning you're still playing a hybrid class of a thief's weaponry with a charr's utilities. Thus you need to count each spec 5 times, meaning 9*5. And these need to rival the existing 18 other elite specs. > > > > Pretty much. It just offers more utilities and F1-6 abilities and a different way to play, its not fundamentally changing the classes in anyway outside of it being an option of anyone in X race to use X racial Elite which is just something special to them, It functions like an eliet spec but it has some fundamental differences. You dont HAVE to use it but its an option... > > And unless these specs are going to be competitive, which they can't be for reasons we just discussed, this NEEDS to be added because? > They don't. They'll make balancing the game even more difficult unless they're worse by default. You're already able to pick 2 utilities, a heal and an elite ability to use that are RACIAL, and frankly they shouldn't even be here to begin with. Then the game should again only focus on human and sylvari the others should be npc races, I got the game so I could shapeshift back when it launched and im still waiting for my norn to FEEL like a norn. Just because you think it will break the game does not mean it will, What next expansion will they add to take over the huge "What the shit" that mounts did? This. IF they do it Right they could show that it can exist and NOT break the game, or hurt the players in anyway but still make the races feel special, and allow them to feel as they do in their lore and as they are presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rika.7249 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @Pifil.5193 said: > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > @Pifil.5193 said: > > > > It doesn't _need_ to happen and goes against the fundamental design intents of the racial skills, they're there for flavour and that's all. > > > > > > > > ArenaNet do not want a situation where any race is better at a profession than the others. Not to mention the headaches from trying to balance 5 racial elites with 45 other traitlines and hundreds of skills. > > > > > > mounts goes against the fundamental nature of guild wars 2 as a whole and the franchise, we had waypoints but they still did it? So there is no reason they cant make this work. The eliet specs function similarly, You will never see a spellbreaker in raiding but you will see a scourage as the spellbreaker was built for pvp which they even came out and flat out said. "Some of the eliet specs are built more for pvp than pve", what your afraid of is already happening and has happened for sometime now all im asking for is for each race to have something special for them and those who play them. > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > Mounts don't go against the fundamental nature of GW2. Waypoints are a fast travel feature, not part of the fundamental nature of GW2. Mounts are another system. > > > > What I was talking about is balancing 5 racial elites with all 9 professions. That will inevitably end up with one of two situations, the first is that where one race becomes the best choice for at least profession, so for example charr could become the best warrior because of their elite spec. The other is that the racial specs are worse than the current options in all races and all professions and no one uses them. So they will either never be used or will be the new meta, neither seems like a good option to me. > > your looking at this one dimensionally and I have explained this, They all will be good and they dont change your class they just offer new utilities and F1 -6 abilities. Its NO DIFFERENT Than an Eliet spec but its for you as a player of X-race. They do the same things, they just have a different way about getting to those results and the feel in which they offer. It by no means will make Charr warrior the only good warrior, it just offers them a way to do things which fits them as a Charr. But it has the potential to make Charr warriors the BEST warriors, and that's not a good idea. It doesn't mean the other non-charr warriors are bad - but your charr warrior is better than our human warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rika.7249 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can NEVER guarantee this. Ever. Unless you purposefully keep them underpowered, someone somewhere is going to scream because their full asura-account can't raid anymore due to charrs being the best raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make them strong enough to stand up with the other specs, but not stronger than them? So make them capable but like with anything else its how you use those skills, and in what situations that they could and might shine? Its no different then current Specs we get each expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, they can't even make the 9 elite specs stand up to each other, have you taken a look at scrapper/necro? Now you're asking them to throw in cross-balance of potentially 27*5 specs? > > > > > > > > > > it would be five spec's and they would function like Eliet spec's and take the place of Eliet spec's unless they felt they could make them work alongside our current new specs. Otherwise it would just be racial eliets where you choose which one you want, and IF they even offered us the ability to use it might come out to 20 something specs or they could just give us ALL of them on different F1 - F6 abilties and let us use them alongside some utilities. And the only ones who would need 6 F1 abilities would be the humans so they can fumble through their avatars, Norn would need 4 as would the others really. > > > > > > > > > > This means they would need reworks, and new models but they could still function properly and add in a decent amount of gameplay and besides that they would only need to do this ONCE. Unless they add a new race, which is their choice. > > > > > > > > Except adding a racial elite (NOT ELIET) would not remove the professions' weapon skills, meaning you're still playing a hybrid class of a thief's weaponry with a charr's utilities. Thus you need to count each spec 5 times, meaning 9*5. And these need to rival the existing 18 other elite specs. > > > > > > Pretty much. It just offers more utilities and F1-6 abilities and a different way to play, its not fundamentally changing the classes in anyway outside of it being an option of anyone in X race to use X racial Elite which is just something special to them, It functions like an eliet spec but it has some fundamental differences. You dont HAVE to use it but its an option... > > > > And unless these specs are going to be competitive, which they can't be for reasons we just discussed, this NEEDS to be added because? > > They don't. They'll make balancing the game even more difficult unless they're worse by default. You're already able to pick 2 utilities, a heal and an elite ability to use that are RACIAL, and frankly they shouldn't even be here to begin with. > > Then the game should again only focus on human and sylvari the others should be npc races, I got the game so I could shapeshift back when it launched and im still waiting for my norn to FEEL like a norn. Just because you think it will break the game does not mean it will, What next expansion will they add to take over the huge "What the kitten" that mounts did? This. IF they do it Right they could show that it can exist and NOT break the game, or hurt the players in anyway but still make the races feel special, and allow them to feel as they do in their lore and as they are presented. You keep saying you want to shapeshift, yet you're perfectly able to shapeshift, so I really don't understand what your complaint is. As a norn, you have 2 shapeshift elite spells. And I don't understand your argument for removing the other races. I'll have to write in shorter sentences: Races are COSMETIC. They have RACIALLY EXCLUSIVE UTILITIES that should NEVER be competitive. Races exist because YOU may LIKE TO PLAY A CHARR THIEF because a CHARR looks GOOD to you. That is why the races exist. That is also why NONE of them should be removed. Because they're here to help you customise the looks of your character. Looks. Not abilities. Looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setdog.1592 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @setdog.1592 said: > > Dear OP you are not ever going to get racial skills and abilities or be able to create builds based on racials. > > I bought the game to be a norn shapeshifter which is something I dont have? you have them. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Wolf https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Bear <- lol 50k health https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Raven https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Snow_Leopard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Rika.7249 said: > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can NEVER guarantee this. Ever. Unless you purposefully keep them underpowered, someone somewhere is going to scream because their full asura-account can't raid anymore due to charrs being the best raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make them strong enough to stand up with the other specs, but not stronger than them? So make them capable but like with anything else its how you use those skills, and in what situations that they could and might shine? Its no different then current Specs we get each expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, they can't even make the 9 elite specs stand up to each other, have you taken a look at scrapper/necro? Now you're asking them to throw in cross-balance of potentially 27*5 specs? > > > > > > > > > > > > it would be five spec's and they would function like Eliet spec's and take the place of Eliet spec's unless they felt they could make them work alongside our current new specs. Otherwise it would just be racial eliets where you choose which one you want, and IF they even offered us the ability to use it might come out to 20 something specs or they could just give us ALL of them on different F1 - F6 abilties and let us use them alongside some utilities. And the only ones who would need 6 F1 abilities would be the humans so they can fumble through their avatars, Norn would need 4 as would the others really. > > > > > > > > > > > > This means they would need reworks, and new models but they could still function properly and add in a decent amount of gameplay and besides that they would only need to do this ONCE. Unless they add a new race, which is their choice. > > > > > > > > > > Except adding a racial elite (NOT ELIET) would not remove the professions' weapon skills, meaning you're still playing a hybrid class of a thief's weaponry with a charr's utilities. Thus you need to count each spec 5 times, meaning 9*5. And these need to rival the existing 18 other elite specs. > > > > > > > > Pretty much. It just offers more utilities and F1-6 abilities and a different way to play, its not fundamentally changing the classes in anyway outside of it being an option of anyone in X race to use X racial Elite which is just something special to them, It functions like an eliet spec but it has some fundamental differences. You dont HAVE to use it but its an option... > > > > > > And unless these specs are going to be competitive, which they can't be for reasons we just discussed, this NEEDS to be added because? > > > They don't. They'll make balancing the game even more difficult unless they're worse by default. You're already able to pick 2 utilities, a heal and an elite ability to use that are RACIAL, and frankly they shouldn't even be here to begin with. > > > > Then the game should again only focus on human and sylvari the others should be npc races, I got the game so I could shapeshift back when it launched and im still waiting for my norn to FEEL like a norn. Just because you think it will break the game does not mean it will, What next expansion will they add to take over the huge "What the kitten" that mounts did? This. IF they do it Right they could show that it can exist and NOT break the game, or hurt the players in anyway but still make the races feel special, and allow them to feel as they do in their lore and as they are presented. > > You keep saying you want to shapeshift, yet you're perfectly able to shapeshift, so I really don't understand what your complaint is. As a norn, you have 2 shapeshift elite spells. And I don't understand your argument for removing the other races. I'll have to write in shorter sentences: > > Races are COSMETIC. They have RACIALLY EXCLUSIVE UTILITIES that should NEVER be competitive. Races exist because YOU may LIKE TO PLAY A CHARR THIEF because a CHARR looks GOOD to you. That is why the races exist. That is also why NONE of them should be removed. Because they're here to help you customise the looks of your character. Looks. Not abilities. Looks. I want to actually be capable of something while I shapeshift, those forms are useless and that is NOT what I was looking for. It may have the potential but it also does not have to be capable of making other races obsolete, it just requires PROPER dev time and the right amount of balancing to make it on par but not over powering. It needs to happen otherwise the point in the races existing is mute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @setdog.1592 said: > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > @setdog.1592 said: > > > Dear OP you are not ever going to get racial skills and abilities or be able to create builds based on racials. > > > > I bought the game to be a norn shapeshifter which is something I dont have? > > you have them. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Wolf > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Bear <- lol 50k health > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Raven > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Become_the_Snow_Leopard > > > Yeah but they suck, you cant use them for anything as they are completely worthless in all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rika.7249 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can NEVER guarantee this. Ever. Unless you purposefully keep them underpowered, someone somewhere is going to scream because their full asura-account can't raid anymore due to charrs being the best raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make them strong enough to stand up with the other specs, but not stronger than them? So make them capable but like with anything else its how you use those skills, and in what situations that they could and might shine? Its no different then current Specs we get each expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, they can't even make the 9 elite specs stand up to each other, have you taken a look at scrapper/necro? Now you're asking them to throw in cross-balance of potentially 27*5 specs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it would be five spec's and they would function like Eliet spec's and take the place of Eliet spec's unless they felt they could make them work alongside our current new specs. Otherwise it would just be racial eliets where you choose which one you want, and IF they even offered us the ability to use it might come out to 20 something specs or they could just give us ALL of them on different F1 - F6 abilties and let us use them alongside some utilities. And the only ones who would need 6 F1 abilities would be the humans so they can fumble through their avatars, Norn would need 4 as would the others really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This means they would need reworks, and new models but they could still function properly and add in a decent amount of gameplay and besides that they would only need to do this ONCE. Unless they add a new race, which is their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except adding a racial elite (NOT ELIET) would not remove the professions' weapon skills, meaning you're still playing a hybrid class of a thief's weaponry with a charr's utilities. Thus you need to count each spec 5 times, meaning 9*5. And these need to rival the existing 18 other elite specs. > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much. It just offers more utilities and F1-6 abilities and a different way to play, its not fundamentally changing the classes in anyway outside of it being an option of anyone in X race to use X racial Elite which is just something special to them, It functions like an eliet spec but it has some fundamental differences. You dont HAVE to use it but its an option... > > > > > > > > And unless these specs are going to be competitive, which they can't be for reasons we just discussed, this NEEDS to be added because? > > > > They don't. They'll make balancing the game even more difficult unless they're worse by default. You're already able to pick 2 utilities, a heal and an elite ability to use that are RACIAL, and frankly they shouldn't even be here to begin with. > > > > > > Then the game should again only focus on human and sylvari the others should be npc races, I got the game so I could shapeshift back when it launched and im still waiting for my norn to FEEL like a norn. Just because you think it will break the game does not mean it will, What next expansion will they add to take over the huge "What the kitten" that mounts did? This. IF they do it Right they could show that it can exist and NOT break the game, or hurt the players in anyway but still make the races feel special, and allow them to feel as they do in their lore and as they are presented. > > > > You keep saying you want to shapeshift, yet you're perfectly able to shapeshift, so I really don't understand what your complaint is. As a norn, you have 2 shapeshift elite spells. And I don't understand your argument for removing the other races. I'll have to write in shorter sentences: > > > > Races are COSMETIC. They have RACIALLY EXCLUSIVE UTILITIES that should NEVER be competitive. Races exist because YOU may LIKE TO PLAY A CHARR THIEF because a CHARR looks GOOD to you. That is why the races exist. That is also why NONE of them should be removed. Because they're here to help you customise the looks of your character. Looks. Not abilities. Looks. > > I want to actually be capable of something while I shapeshift, those forms are useless and that is NOT what I was looking for. It may have the potential but it also does not have to be capable of making other races obsolete, it just requires PROPER dev time and the right amount of balancing to make it on par but not over powering. It needs to happen otherwise the point in the races existing is mute. I'll repeat the two points you ignore: 1: They can't even balance 9 specs. You expect them to balance 72. You have the ability to shapeshift. It's bad. It should continue to be so, or you risk people needing to reroll their thief because a charr thief is more effective than a norn thief. 2: It does not make races existing mute, because as we just discussed, races were always a cosmetic choice. Some like the idea of a fat cat thief. Some want a wrinkly gnome thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I'd never understand why ppl tend to ask for disadvantages and more farm. You can play the race you want whatever? Nope, you have to ask for unique traits, which will point the choice the the better race instead of what you like. You have no progression and can drop the game everytime and resume it whenever you want? Nope, you must to ask for stats farm and a slower progression to "enjoy" the game. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @Pifil.5193 said: > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > @Pifil.5193 said: > > > > It doesn't _need_ to happen and goes against the fundamental design intents of the racial skills, they're there for flavour and that's all. > > > > > > > > ArenaNet do not want a situation where any race is better at a profession than the others. Not to mention the headaches from trying to balance 5 racial elites with 45 other traitlines and hundreds of skills. > > > > > > mounts goes against the fundamental nature of guild wars 2 as a whole and the franchise, we had waypoints but they still did it? So there is no reason they cant make this work. The eliet specs function similarly, You will never see a spellbreaker in raiding but you will see a scourage as the spellbreaker was built for pvp which they even came out and flat out said. "Some of the eliet specs are built more for pvp than pve", what your afraid of is already happening and has happened for sometime now all im asking for is for each race to have something special for them and those who play them. > > > > > > It is not increased stats, it is simply a build you can run that can even take the place of your eliet spec as your eliet spec but only your race can use this spec. Only a charr can be a legionnaire, and only a norn can be a havroun... they are not required but optional terms of play. > > > > Mounts don't go against the fundamental nature of GW2. Waypoints are a fast travel feature, not part of the fundamental nature of GW2. Mounts are another system. > > > > What I was talking about is balancing 5 racial elites with all 9 professions. That will inevitably end up with one of two situations, the first is that where one race becomes the best choice for at least profession, so for example charr could become the best warrior because of their elite spec. The other is that the racial specs are worse than the current options in all races and all professions and no one uses them. So they will either never be used or will be the new meta, neither seems like a good option to me. > > your looking at this one dimensionally and I have explained this, They all will be good and they dont change your class they just offer new utilities and F1 -6 abilities. Its NO DIFFERENT Than an Eliet spec but its for you as a player of X-race. They do the same things, they just have a different way about getting to those results and the feel in which they offer. It by no means will make Charr warrior the only good warrior, it just offers them a way to do things which fits them as a Charr. I never said they would be the only good warrior, but they could become the best warrior because they have traits and skills that no other race has. Surely you realise that? Not to mention the complication of adding new mechanics to the professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Regardless revolutionizing the market is not done by removing features, its done by fixing them and making them better and showing it can be done properly. Im not looking foward to a bunch of recycled crap in the next set of eliet spec's, thats all these new ones were really... recycled stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rika.7249 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > Regardless revolutionizing the market is not done by removing features, its done by fixing them and making them better and showing it can be done properly. Im not looking foward to a bunch of recycled crap in the next set of eliet spec's, thats all these new ones were really... recycled stuff. No offense, but there is a hell of a lot more new design to Deadeyes and Soulbeasts than to the potential of a shapeshifting norn, which we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 A shapeshifter in general could be amazing in this game, Even if it was granted to all the races via the spirits of the wild offering it to them to follow via one class it would be so cool to see it done justice. Again if you dont have a reason for the racial skills to exist remove them and just be like "They are useless they are not here anymore" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > > @Rika.7249 said: > > > > Racials will never and should never be on par with normal builds, as it pushes people to play a certain race-profession combination that they might not like. Let's not become World of Warcraft where humans were absolutely required for PvP for 5 years. > > > > > > > > By the way, it's "elite" not "eliet". > > > > > > If you actually went through and read it, you would see I said it does NOT take anything away from the class/race combo just offers differing ways to play. It should happen as all it does is give each race their LORE based abilities that most champions and warriors/heroes would have, The humans have their gods and the norn have their animal spirits. The charr rely on cheeky tenacity, and the asuran rely on their brains while the sylvari rely on their code of conduct and their beliefs. > > > > > > This by no means will make any one build better than the other, its just an alternative way to play and is not REQUIRED much like a regular eliet spec but its special to your race. Which validates the existence of anything outside human and sylvari. > > > > I did read it, and I didn't mention anything about taking anything away from the class/race combo. It's about one race being superior to another, which there always will be. There's a reason most MMOs are getting rid of racial abilities, or at least keep them toned down - it's because nobody wants to be forced to play an Asura Elementalist who can use a robot-suit because it provides more DPS than a Human Elementalist who can summon wolves from Balthazar. Neither of them should be at an advantage for picking their race. > > Then only make humans playable, offer us all a race change because the validation for playing anything outside of a human/sylvari is not there. In most cases the other three races look horrible in the armor as its not made for them, Im not saying "Skills" im saying full fledged specs that ANYONE of the race can use. They would have to be tuned like a normal eliet specs so they would all be strong in "Different" Areas. Example: The human racial spec might be good for raiding, but craptastic at pvp where as the asuran golem might be good in pvp but not in raiding? They already did this with this expansion. Spellbreaker is a pvp built elite spec with pvp and wvw in mind and not raiding once so ever. Other players enjoy playing the various races. They may not even consider them as looking horrible. If you dont want to play the non-human races unless build complexity, including race being added to meta considerations...then dont. Arguing that other people should have options taken from them is a bit off IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rika.7249 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > A shapeshifter in general could be amazing in this game, Even if it was granted to all the races via the spirits of the wild offering it to them to follow via one class it would be so cool to see it done justice. Again if you dont have a reason for the racial skills to exist remove them and just be like "They are useless they are not here anymore" Nah. I enjoy occasionally strolling around as a bear-man, for funsies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > A shapeshifter in general could be amazing in this game, Even if it was granted to all the races via the spirits of the wild offering it to them to follow via one class it would be so cool to see it done justice. Again if you dont have a reason for the racial skills to exist remove them and just be like "They are useless they are not here anymore" They have a reason: they're fun and they provide a little flavour for each of the races while not being overpowering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Been away for a bit playing the expansion. I have to disagree with most of you. There are many games that have done a good job of having races impact builds and many players that have found unique ways to use a "weaker" race to improve and create builds that fit their play style or fit something that one player might see as a class weakness that another does not. I will counter you with giving players choice in builds which many felt was lost when we moved from 5 to 3 trait lines. I understand the architecture that was added in to support the future elites and appreciate the structure, but can also appreciate how it limited builds. Its about the "fun" and some people enjoy the experience of experimenting with their builds, this adds more depth for people like that. Get off the meta train. Every great build was an experimental build before it became meta. "Group think" isn't always right, actually mostly in history its been proven wrong over time. Its ok to question. I agree with the OP, there should be different pro/cons for each race. Races are one of the draws to GW2, it meant that a Charr thief would be different than an Norn and that would be different from a human. Not saying that one would be better, but would feel/act different. It would present players different options to solve a given situation or play a different way. Choice and differences add replay-ability which extends game play on existing content which extends a game's life. I don't agree with arguments that it can't be balanced and have more faith that it can and have seen other current games like ESO do so. Again, we distract at times, it should be up to ANet to say they can or can't, players should focus on the why's or why nots. I understand people that say that race shouldn't impact build, but I disagree since one of the selling factors to me was that race did/would have impact and meant different races meant different play options. I would ask ANet not to abandon that concept. Thanks for the read, good gaming to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blodeuyn.2751 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 You want to play a shapeshifting norn. We tell you it exits. You dont want to play THAT kind shapeshifting norn. Then basically you say if you can't get what you want, make the only playable races human and sylvari, or just human. So then you would not be able to play a norn at all. You also justify removing the other races by stating that "In most cases the other three races look horrible in the armor as its not made for them". None of that is logical and hurts your argument. There is no way this far into the game you can make these kinds of racial changes and not tick off existing players. I mainly wvw, so if you would in essence make my sylvari ele less viable than another race's ele, I would be angry. It sounds like you want to force gw2 to bend to your style and wishes, when really it might not be the best game for you. It is your fault and your fault alone that you did not check out the norn abilities online before purchasing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 > @TheGrimm.5624 said: > Been away for a bit playing the expansion. I have to disagree with most of you. There are many games that have done a good job of having races impact builds and many players that have found unique ways to use a "weaker" race to improve and create builds that fit their play style or fit something that one player might see as a class weakness that another does not. I will counter you with giving players choice in builds which many felt was lost when we moved from 5 to 3 trait lines. I understand the architecture that was added in to support the future elites and appreciate the structure, but can also appreciate how it limited builds. Its about the "fun" and some people enjoy the experience of experimenting with their builds, this adds more depth for people like that. Get off the meta train. Every great build was an experimental build before it became meta. "Group think" isn't always right, actually mostly in history its been proven wrong over time. Its ok to question. > > I agree with the OP, there should be different pro/cons for each race. Races are one of the draws to GW2, it meant that a Charr thief would be different than an Norn and that would be different from a human. Not saying that one would be better, but would feel/act different. It would present players different options to solve a given situation or play a different way. Choice and differences add replay-ability which extends game play on existing content which extends a game's life. > > I don't agree with arguments that it can't be balanced and have more faith that it can and have seen other current games like ESO do so. Again, we distract at times, it should be up to ANet to say they can or can't, players should focus on the why's or why nots. I understand people that say that race shouldn't impact build, but I disagree since one of the selling factors to me was that race did/would have impact and meant different races meant different play options. I would ask ANet not to abandon that concept. > > Thanks for the read, good gaming to all! I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kichwas.7152 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > It does need to happen, and it needs to be on par with normal builds. Its not racism, its allowing these fantasy races to live up to their lore and having more than one of each class worth it. Because at this point it really is not. The biggest problem with modern fantasy is that it is so shaped by Gary Gaygax's legacy of making everything into a race-war. He made a game where almost all the dark skinned races were evil, un-intelligent, and strong, and almost all the light skinned ones were good, smart, and magical... and then even added a race of elves (an exception to the 'brain power is in the skin tone rule of D&D') that were black because they sinned against their god - a story that actually comes from the rejected 'curse of Ham' tale used to justify slavery in the USA (it was created by a medieval monk to promote the slave trade centuries ago)... And Guild Wars is the fantasy game the rejects ALL of that... has none of that racialized thinking. And frankly that's a big part of why I love this game. Before D&D... fantasy was NOT about race wars... it was about imagining magical worlds. We've now had decades of this poison of turning fantasy into a mirror of the worst aspect of modern culture... and it's about time we had a big brand name game out there turning back to fantasy's roots in imaging magical worlds. **So I don't ever want to see them promote statistical differences in characters based on 'immutable factors' like race.** Promoting that idea that some races can do some things and others can't - that is the core of racialized thinking, which is the first building block of training people to be racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locney.9278 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 > @Blodeuyn.2751 said: > You want to play a shapeshifting norn. We tell you it exits. You dont want to play THAT kind shapeshifting norn. Then basically you say if you can't get what you want, make the only playable races human and sylvari, or just human. So then you would not be able to play a norn at all. You also justify removing the other races by stating that "In most cases the other three races look horrible in the armor as its not made for them". None of that is logical and hurts your argument. > > There is no way this far into the game you can make these kinds of racial changes and not tick off existing players. I mainly wvw, so if you would in essence make my sylvari ele less viable than another race's ele, I would be angry. > > It sounds like you want to force gw2 to bend to your style and wishes, when really it might not be the best game for you. It is your fault and your fault alone that you did not check out the norn abilities online before purchasing the game. Considering this is your second thread about this, Thorn, I think Blodeuyn's hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry the game isn't up to your exacting standards, but if you want to play a shapeshifter, Guild Wars 2 isn't and is unlikely to be the game for you if that's the only thing that will allow you to enjoy the game. There's plenty of awesome stuff in Tyria without needing to completely add in a major mechanic like racial specs, but if that's what it will take to keep you playing, well... I hope you find what your looking for when you eventually leave. I think ESO's the closest thing to what you're looking for, but I think you said in the previous thread that it didn't quite match up. Edit: Let me add a bit more to this. What you're suggesting is not only unlikely to happen, it's something ANet has actively deterred over the years. Anet wants you to pick races based on flavor, lore and story, not for any mechanical reason. Let me just go over why this wouldn't work out... 1. Anet has added features, such as making all enemy players appear default and disabled racial skills in PvP. This was specifically added in to avoid people having an advantage over one another based on race. For example, before the default option, people would pick Asura because they're smaller and harder to see in the chaos of battle. 2. What you're asking for is almost an entire expansion's worth of work when we JUST got Path of Fire. The amount of rebalancing, reworking and new mechanics added in just to play the shapeshifter as a spec alone would require weeks of man-hours just to implement, let alone balance! You MIGHT see it in the next expac, maybe, but it would definitely not be any time soon. 3. The community doesn't want it. You used mounts as an example of things being added in that 'don't fit', but the community has been practically begging for mounts since day one! Before you say it, FLYING mounts are what people are apprehensive about. Like, actual flying mounts, not the gliding one we have now. People wanted to ride stuff for a while now, while this is one of the first times I've seen someone ask about werewolves or racial specs. 4. The hardcore community would take advantage of this in an unwanted way. Despite your protests, yes, the PvPers, Raiders, SPvPers, fractalers...No matter how Anet tries, one racial would prove better then others for certain roles. That Wolf form you mentioned? Well, if it synergizes well enough, you might find yourself only seeing Norn Guardians because they're the 'best support', or Asuran Engineers because of massive condi or something. Folks don't want that, and if those specs were in the game, they would either never get used (to the point that you might get kicked from PuGs for specing shapeshifter) or would be required for high end builds! I know you want this, but Anet's not going to redo their whole game in a way that will please one person, but likely anger the rest of their community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trianglecubed.3750 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > It does need to happen, and it needs to be on par with normal builds. Its not racism, its allowing these fantasy races to live up to their lore and having more than one of each class worth it. Because at this point it really is not. > > There is a huge difference between something needing to happen and something one wants to happen. The game has done just fine for five years without your proposal. That is a fairly solid indication that this is a want, not a need. > > On par with normal buds does not mean access to an exclusive spec in addition to an elite spec. All post launch spec lines are mutually exclusive with each other. What you suggest would be the opposite of a normal build. > > Again, I think racial specs could be made to work, but I think that they should probably follow the pattern set wherein unique thematic specs go in the elite spec slot. This game also did "Just fine" without mounts for many years, and yet... here we are now despite all of the overly aggressive people shouting, screaming, and even threatening other players for wanting mounts, stating, very firmly that it would NEVER happen. I can't tell you how happy it made me to see those people eat their words this expansion. Just because the game is doing "just fine" as it is doesn't mean that it can't be changed or things can't be added and it wouldn't continue doing "just fine." Frankly, I rather agree that it shouldn't be another elite spec, it should just be a standard spec that adds racial-specific abilities and enhances ones that you already have. That'd be neat. Instead of being, say, a firearms, explosives, holosmith engineer you could be a Norn, explosives, holosmith spec. You could even have these spec change the cosmetics of some abilities, like, again, turrets for a norn engineer could have feathers and fur and look more carved stone than smooth metal. Sylvari turrets could be any of the numerous plant turrets. You get the idea. Aesthetics could change a bit and each race could more use their racial themes and abilities as opposed to just sort of seeming like a generic all-soldier because, as is, no one ever uses racials. Why have different races if they're all going to essentially be the same? Norn aren't big humans, Sylvari aren't plant-humans, Charr aren't furry-hunched humans, and asura aren't football headed tiny humans, yet, right now, they may as well be. I mean.. I'd love to be able to call in my full warband as a Charr and have them actually do useful things or summon spirits to help me as a Norn or even FINALLY USE MY GOLEMS like seemingly every other Asura does as an Asura. Yet the long CDs and obvious ineffectiveness of literally all of the racial abilities makes using them and being able to be even remotely effective in even a solo PVE fight against even a vet or a couple of standard mobs difficult. Overall I think OPs idea is a fantastic idea with the exception of it being anything even remotely like a "elite" spec. It should just be a spec that's race specific. Thematically different yet mechanically similar, yet not completely the same, across the board so no single race is better than the other at any given thing yet racials do finally become viable in most modes yet not required over anything else. In essence, I'd like to see racial spec trees work to enhance and add to racial abilities while also working in tandem with the class you are to enhance those abilities like normal specs already do. The three lines of top, mid, and bottom could all be for different general areas of combat, for instance, one could focus more on survivability (maybe even for both you and your team), the other on more of a power sort of damage situation, and the other on a condi damage situation. These are, of course, just idle thoughts of mine, yet you get the general idea. It'd help make the races feel different without making one more powerful in any instance than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 > @"trianglecubed.3750" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @Thornwolf.9721 said: > > > It does need to happen, and it needs to be on par with normal builds. Its not racism, its allowing these fantasy races to live up to their lore and having more than one of each class worth it. Because at this point it really is not. > > > > There is a huge difference between something needing to happen and something one wants to happen. The game has done just fine for five years without your proposal. That is a fairly solid indication that this is a want, not a need. > > > > On par with normal buds does not mean access to an exclusive spec in addition to an elite spec. All post launch spec lines are mutually exclusive with each other. What you suggest would be the opposite of a normal build. > > > > Again, I think racial specs could be made to work, but I think that they should probably follow the pattern set wherein unique thematic specs go in the elite spec slot. > > This game also did "Just fine" without mounts for many years, and yet... here we are now despite all of the overly aggressive people shouting, screaming, and even threatening other players for wanting mounts, stating, very firmly that it would NEVER happen. > > I can't tell you how happy it made me to see those people eat their words this expansion. > > Just because the game is doing "just fine" as it is doesn't mean that it can't be changed or things can't be added and it wouldn't continue doing "just fine." Frankly, I rather agree that it shouldn't be another elite spec, it should just be a standard spec that adds racial-specific abilities and enhances ones that you already have. That'd be neat. Instead of being, say, a firearms, explosives, holosmith engineer you could be a Norn, explosives, holosmith spec. You could even have these spec change the cosmetics of some abilities, like, again, turrets for a norn engineer could have feathers and fur and look more carved stone than smooth metal. Sylvari turrets could be any of the numerous plant turrets. You get the idea. Aesthetics could change a bit and each race could more use their racial themes and abilities as opposed to just sort of seeming like a generic all-soldier because, as is, no one ever uses racials. Why have different races if they're all going to essentially be the same? Norn aren't big humans, Sylvari aren't plant-humans, Charr aren't furry-hunched humans, and asura aren't football headed tiny humans, yet, right now, they may as well be. > > I mean.. I'd love to be able to call in my full warband as a Charr and have them actually do useful things or summon spirits to help me as a Norn or even FINALLY USE MY GOLEMS like seemingly every other Asura does as an Asura. Yet the long CDs and obvious ineffectiveness of literally all of the racial abilities makes using them and being able to be even remotely effective in even a solo PVE fight against even a vet or a couple of standard mobs difficult. > > Overall I think OPs idea is a fantastic idea with the exception of it being anything even remotely like a "elite" spec. It should just be a spec that's race specific. Thematically different yet mechanically similar, yet not completely the same, across the board so no single race is better than the other at any given thing yet racials do finally become viable in most modes yet not required over anything else. In essence, I'd like to see racial spec trees work to enhance and add to racial abilities while also working in tandem with the class you are to enhance those abilities like normal specs already do. The three lines of top, mid, and bottom could all be for different general areas of combat, for instance, one could focus more on survivability (maybe even for both you and your team), the other on more of a power sort of damage situation, and the other on a condi damage situation. These are, of course, just idle thoughts of mine, yet you get the general idea. It'd help make the races feel different without making one more powerful in any instance than the other. Mounts were not added because they were needed, rather because they were wanted. My entire point involving the doing fine for five years comment was to demonstrate that the suggestion was a want rather than a need. Your attempted counter actually supports my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Reason why racials are weaket is too prevent reqs like you have too be charr warrior ore ele asura to play content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 This does not train or promote racisim? Its offering people something for making characters who are fundamentally different, and for all intents and purposes this is something needed to make them stand out on their own. You want racisim? We already have that with the human elietests in this game telling anyone who is NOT human they are dumb for picking their race, your arguement is invalid. Armor is made to look better Exclusivily on humans/sylvari, we cant even get good looking armor to begin with and even the armor we do have is not made with the other races in mind. I guess your right as I cant even expect them to balance the shit they have, and make the classes all equal now because they are too incompitant to even do that right so why expect them to do any of what im suggesting right? I mean lets face facts in two more expansions all the classes will fundamentally be the same, the eliet specs will see to that as they already are pretty much desaturating any unique feeling out of the CLASSES alone. Why expect them to even bother adding things too the races, or a new race in general... its too much work and they can cut more corners for more money if they just keep on with the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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