tinyreborn.1938 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. -> true winner is chrono. Current meta build isnt using it > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. -> changed to DE because of IH need clones to work . This change wont affect current mirage at all imo. > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. -> As if other skills would be looked at as well :) Btw right now not used in 'meta' build . And clone generated if you are in range of leap description and leaping on target > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. -> true I Would add scepter had buff that doesnt really needed ,stolen laser from FA eles... Long story short: Too much complaints about EM . Now everyone swapped to only choice left - IH . Mirage lost its sword in favor of better IH and got alot more damage but low mobility. Imo biggest culript is new IH :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 Hold on. They do _not_ have the same sustain. Or we do have a different understanding of "sustain". 1. Illusions instead of domination. More shatters, meaning more blinds. More torch stealth and cleanses. Better dazes... can be used defensively, well, definitely worse though. 2. Signet instead of mantra. Okay, this might even out, though mantra is usually used purely for offense. 3. Much more health/healing through carrion or sage amulet versus marauder. 4. On condi mirage both weapon sets have defensive and offensive abilities. Axe 3, scepter 2, staff 2 and all those. On power mesmer GS is completely offensive. That's where his main burst comes from and that's where you are supposed to burst him. 5. Confusion and torment prevent proper counterpressure. 6. Different sigils and runes too. usually more defensive on condi mirage (adventurer's). As I said, in the current meta power mesmer would deserve some more DPS over a longer time. Or some boon strip. But having low sustain is okay as long as the damage is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > You unable to understand how ridiculous and stupid your claims and thats really saddening... Because axe3 have breaktargeting compared to BF thats gives condi mirage 10 times more sustain ... tf you even talking about pistol offhand and trying to connect it to 'sustain' ? Just another forum QQ kid that pretend to be smart . > I wont even look at your nonsense again ... When your target kills itself because he tries to follow your movement (torment) or to attack you (confusion) you got sustain. Game basics. And I guess a stealth into blink/sword-leap fight reset at will is also not a form of sustain to you. Condi mesmer players... not to be taken seriously since 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > You unable to understand how ridiculous and stupid your claims and thats really saddening... Because axe3 have breaktargeting compared to BF thats gives condi mirage 10 times more sustain ... tf you even talking about pistol offhand and trying to connect it to 'sustain' ? Just another forum QQ kid that pretend to be smart . > > I wont even look at your nonsense again ... > When your target kills itself because he tries to follow your movement (torment) or to attack you (confusion) you got sustain. Game basics. And I guess a stealth into blink/sword-leap fight reset at will is also not a form of sustain to you. > > Condi mesmer players... not to be taken seriously since 2012. > "Sustainability is the capacity to endure." Basics With current confusion duration you have no excuses to die to it and amount of cleanses everyone have now. Axe/torch staff secretly have hidden sword on 3rd weapon set . Really awful attempt to troll by the way . In that time they didnt exist and being awful until HoT dropped . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > Hold on. They do _not_ have the same sustain. Or we do have a different understanding of "sustain". > > 1. Illusions instead of domination. More shatters, meaning more blinds. More torch stealth and cleanses. Better dazes... can be used defensively, well, definitely worse though. > 2. Signet instead of mantra. Okay, this might even out, though mantra is usually used purely for offense. > 3. Much more health/healing through carrion or sage amulet versus marauder. > 4. On condi mirage both weapon sets have defensive and offensive abilities. Axe 3, scepter 2, staff 2 and all those. On power mesmer GS is completely offensive. That's where his main burst comes from and that's where you are supposed to burst him. > 5. Confusion and torment prevent proper counterpressure. > 6. Different sigils and runes too. usually more defensive on condi mirage (adventurer's). > > As I said, in the current meta power mesmer would deserve some more DPS over a longer time. Or some boon strip. But having low sustain is okay as long as the damage is there. Illusions is not significantly less glassy than Domination - 24s prestige and slightly lower shatter cooldowns don't make a huge amount of difference. Inspiration however... yeah that needs to be looked at, although that's another line useable by power/hybrid or condi. Stats are something that can be adjusted independently - so I agree that certain amulets or wvw gear have more defensive stats for condi, in practice it doesn't add much to facetanking damage due to how high overall damage is - where a dodge is infinitely scalable. I'm speaking here more from a wvw point of view where no amount of defensive stats will save someone for long. Staff 2... I'm not sure how well that can be quantified given staff has little ability to contribute to burst (unless IH lining clones for might stack plus ambush and burst) and relies on kiting to mitigate damage - but has no way to truly evade like say sword 2 - GS on the other hand in pure power has the potential to delete an opponent and end a fight quickly on a low cooldown with F1, so there is worthwhile trade off. Scepter can be used in full power too due to crazy power scaling on say skill 3, so this is a hybrid weapon able to be used well in any stat - just that GS has more burst potential. Otherwise it is possible to play say Sw/x Sc/x power maybe with some defensive/bruiser mix in wvw. Even axe can be used in power with axe 3's direct damage component giving decent crits, although better off hybrid to get the most out of it. Condis can be cleansed though and continue attacking, I'd sooner eat some stacks of torment/confusion that I can cleanse off rather than say a 15k power burst which puts the opponent on the back foot at a huge disadvantage. Adventurer is another one of the things incentivising mirage to hybrid for optimal play - as both pure power or pure condi wouldn't benefit as much from the stats here. However it only benefits most when used with low cooldown heal like traited mirror - on longer heals like FO it loses some value and other runes can be beneficial. Otherwise things like energy sigils, food in wvw, utility skills and multi purpose weapons like sword (and even scepter or axe) are useable across a range of stat sets. Anyway the point is similar survivability options (not same), some slightly more some slightly less, but not vastly different other than GS being pure offence only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely. > > Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it. > > Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast. > > So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is. > > Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it. > > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. Excuse me but these retargeting skills are the most annoying things ever to fight against and both axe 3 and illsuionary ambush have way to less cd. They are better than decoy in any way, evade, repositioning from range, detargeting and high dmg pressure form ambushes. Add 1-2 stealth and the mesmer is out of target like 60-70% of the fight. The time he needs to kill you, you are more busy to get him back in target (and yes i know which one is the right mesmer, still retargeting needs time) and often the mes is out of target again before i even can cast a single skill on him. When he runs out of retargeting skills he still can just disengage and wait for these annoying cds to come back. That axe 3 and illusionary ambush don't have double the cd at least already is just not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > > > Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely. > > > > Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it. > > > > Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast. > > > > So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is. > > > > Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it. > > > > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. > > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. > > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. > > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. > > Excuse me but these retargeting skills are the most annoying things ever to fight against and both axe 3 and illsuionary ambush have way to less cd. They are better than decoy in any way, evade, repositioning from range, detargeting and high dmg pressure form ambushes. Add 1-2 stealth and the mesmer is out of target like 60-70% of the fight. The time he needs to kill you, you are more busy to get him back in target (and yes i know which one is the right mesmer, still retargeting needs time) and often the mes is out of target again before i even can cast a single skill on him. When he runs out of retargeting skills he still can just disengage and wait for these annoying cds to come back. That axe 3 and illusionary ambush don't have double the cd at least already is just not acceptable. I personally don't find them annoying when fighting against other axe mirages. Annoying is subjective here - I can retarget after they do axe 3 pretty quickly. Much easier to deal with than stealth - and I'd much rather fight against these two detarget skills than say old PU mesmer or even new high stealth uptime deadeye. Would sooner see stealth nerfed affecting SoM, Decoy, Prestige etc than detarget which IMO is a good mechanic for mesmer in general. IA only becomes deceptive with Staff (or GS/Scepter) plus 3 clones at range and standing still for a moment - if in open field with good rng positioning, not in aoe damage. If lucky that buys a couple of seconds at most. On sword the player has to move/leap (or not but then easy to pick out from clones), and on axe they're in close enough range to cleave/dodge through clones etc. If unlucky - on narrow terrain, bad rng port in aoe or cleave, enemies retarget immediately by luck, using weapon that requires player movement, not having enough clones out, getting clones cleaved - then it just becomes a 1s glorified evade. Having spent a year roaming with it, I've seen situations where I've had at least 3-5 seconds against small groups where bad players struggle, situations where it's not moved me at all and just get cleaved out or sit in aoe damage, or where good players see any movement and get straight back on target. Funnily enough the best use of IA I can recall was last year running from a large group porting back up from being mobbed in the river to an enemy on the bridge near SE camp on abl leading to hills - but that was kind of lucky. We may have to just disagree on this point because I don't believe either axe 3 or IA are a problem, and I know you strongly believe the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > Hold on. They do _not_ have the same sustain. Or we do have a different understanding of "sustain". > > > > 1. Illusions instead of domination. More shatters, meaning more blinds. More torch stealth and cleanses. Better dazes... can be used defensively, well, definitely worse though. > > 2. Signet instead of mantra. Okay, this might even out, though mantra is usually used purely for offense. > > 3. Much more health/healing through carrion or sage amulet versus marauder. > > 4. On condi mirage both weapon sets have defensive and offensive abilities. Axe 3, scepter 2, staff 2 and all those. On power mesmer GS is completely offensive. That's where his main burst comes from and that's where you are supposed to burst him. > > 5. Confusion and torment prevent proper counterpressure. > > 6. Different sigils and runes too. usually more defensive on condi mirage (adventurer's). > > > > As I said, in the current meta power mesmer would deserve some more DPS over a longer time. Or some boon strip. But having low sustain is okay as long as the damage is there. > > Illusions is not significantly less glassy than Domination - 24s prestige and slightly lower shatter cooldowns don't make a huge amount of difference. Inspiration however... yeah that needs to be looked at, although that's another line useable by power/hybrid or condi. > > Stats are something that can be adjusted independently - so I agree that certain amulets or wvw gear have more defensive stats for condi, in practice it doesn't add much to facetanking damage due to how high overall damage is - where a dodge is infinitely scalable. I'm speaking here more from a wvw point of view where no amount of defensive stats will save someone for long. > > Staff 2... I'm not sure how well that can be quantified given staff has little ability to contribute to burst (unless IH lining clones for might stack plus ambush and burst) and relies on kiting to mitigate damage - but has no way to truly evade like say sword 2 - GS on the other hand in pure power has the potential to delete an opponent and end a fight quickly on a low cooldown with F1, so there is worthwhile trade off. Scepter can be used in full power too due to crazy power scaling on say skill 3, so this is a hybrid weapon able to be used well in any stat - just that GS has more burst potential. Otherwise it is possible to play say Sw/x Sc/x power maybe with some defensive/bruiser mix in wvw. Even axe can be used in power with axe 3's direct damage component giving decent crits, although better off hybrid to get the most out of it. > > Condis can be cleansed though and continue attacking, I'd sooner eat some stacks of torment/confusion that I can cleanse off rather than say a 15k power burst which puts the opponent on the back foot at a huge disadvantage. > > Adventurer is another one of the things incentivising mirage to hybrid for optimal play - as both pure power or pure condi wouldn't benefit as much from the stats here. However it only benefits most when used with low cooldown heal like traited mirror - on longer heals like FO it loses some value and other runes can be beneficial. Otherwise things like energy sigils, food in wvw, utility skills and multi purpose weapons like sword (and even scepter or axe) are useable across a range of stat sets. > > Anyway the point is similar survivability options (not same), some slightly more some slightly less, but not vastly different other than GS being pure offence only. Well, we can agree to disagree on the point. And I am mainly speaking about PVP, so less about hybrid, which is... well, it only really happens in WvW (though the common condi amulets used do have power too). But: 1. Yeah, not too significant difference here. 2. Power needs marauder. Nothing else works. Condi has always higher sustain on the amulets in PVP. 3. No power mesmer uses scepter. Always sword/x and GS, because you need the burst from GS. When "sustain" means "lol so much damage you kill enemies before they attack you", then... well, different opinions. :wink: 3. 4. Those two conditions do prevent attacks though, hindering abilities to counterattack. The counterplay is to "stand" and "do nothing". 5. In PVP, no power mesmer uses it, because the ambush skills are much worse for them. Again, different thing in WvW, agreed. In total, absolutely disagree, condi mirage has much more sustain. WvW hybrid mirage is a totally different thing, I agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xstein.2187 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Silence.3702" said: > Power mirage is still OP > People just don't play it because you have condi mirage who's ridiculously op. > Mirage is just that much high up there and people are scared of nerfs because deep inside they know they will have to work to get better Bunker druid is still OP People just don't play it because you have Firebrand mantra bunker. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jportell.2197 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 Hi OP. Quick question. What's your rating? I don't feel that it's very high based on the thread. Lemme give you some insight as to just how little represented mirage is in top tier play. @incisorr.9502 said: yeah a friendly update to all the lads from @ arena net in top 70 currently there are 2 mesmers out of literally 70 people and one of those mesmers plays duo with a rev not even my opinion at this point im just stating a blatant fact that at 1.7k+ elo there are barely any mesmers left and the ones that are there are certainly not there due to their class, i did say the nerfs were too many and i still think mesmer is "okay" (i don't think core guard and rev are okay cus theyre broken) but ive been the only mesmer in 4 out of 5 games so i decided to look at the names and to my surprise there were literally no others. I know a few other mesmers loom around it so maybe they have decay but at least in the time of checking those are the results went from gw2's trademark class and most op class to literally 2 out of 70, lol Add one or two in there as I just got to top 50. But something I notice the higher my rating. Way less mirage players. Way more spell breakers, reapers, and holosmiths. You post your experience I post mine, I also back mine with numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > > > > > Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely. > > > > > > Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it. > > > > > > Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast. > > > > > > So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is. > > > > > > Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it. > > > > > > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > > > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. > > > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. > > > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. > > > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. > > > > Excuse me but these retargeting skills are the most annoying things ever to fight against and both axe 3 and illsuionary ambush have way to less cd. They are better than decoy in any way, evade, repositioning from range, detargeting and high dmg pressure form ambushes. Add 1-2 stealth and the mesmer is out of target like 60-70% of the fight. The time he needs to kill you, you are more busy to get him back in target (and yes i know which one is the right mesmer, still retargeting needs time) and often the mes is out of target again before i even can cast a single skill on him. When he runs out of retargeting skills he still can just disengage and wait for these annoying cds to come back. That axe 3 and illusionary ambush don't have double the cd at least already is just not acceptable. > > I personally don't find them annoying when fighting against other axe mirages. Annoying is subjective here - I can retarget after they do axe 3 pretty quickly. Much easier to deal with than stealth - and I'd much rather fight against these two detarget skills than say old PU mesmer or even new high stealth uptime deadeye. Would sooner see stealth nerfed affecting SoM, Decoy, Prestige etc than detarget which IMO is a good mechanic for mesmer in general. > > IA only becomes deceptive with Staff (or GS/Scepter) plus 3 clones at range and standing still for a moment - if in open field with good rng positioning, not in aoe damage. If lucky that buys a couple of seconds at most. On sword the player has to move/leap (or not but then easy to pick out from clones), and on axe they're in close enough range to cleave/dodge through clones etc. > > If unlucky - on narrow terrain, bad rng port in aoe or cleave, enemies retarget immediately by luck, using weapon that requires player movement, not having enough clones out, getting clones cleaved - then it just becomes a 1s glorified evade. Having spent a year roaming with it, I've seen situations where I've had at least 3-5 seconds against small groups where bad players struggle, situations where it's not moved me at all and just get cleaved out or sit in aoe damage, or where good players see any movement and get straight back on target. Funnily enough the best use of IA I can recall was last year running from a large group porting back up from being mobbed in the river to an enemy on the bridge near SE camp on abl leading to hills - but that was kind of lucky. > > We may have to just disagree on this point because I don't believe either axe 3 or IA are a problem, and I know you strongly believe the opposite. For everyone doesn't have retargeting skills themself and can't counter them like fire with fire they are a pain. They are way more annoying than stealth. Even tho perma stealth ofc should not exist either. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush have way too short cd for the power they have, in particular are these the skills give mirage too much evade frame, aside from the high dmg pressure and retargeting they give in addition. I would say that is even common sense and why Anet still did not touch them is not understandable. It is acceptable when the mirage cannot get out of target that often, double the cd from both at least and then we can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jportell.2197 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > > > > > > > Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely. > > > > > > > > Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it. > > > > > > > > Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast. > > > > > > > > So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is. > > > > > > > > Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it. > > > > > > > > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > > > > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. > > > > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. > > > > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. > > > > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. > > > > > > Excuse me but these retargeting skills are the most annoying things ever to fight against and both axe 3 and illsuionary ambush have way to less cd. They are better than decoy in any way, evade, repositioning from range, detargeting and high dmg pressure form ambushes. Add 1-2 stealth and the mesmer is out of target like 60-70% of the fight. The time he needs to kill you, you are more busy to get him back in target (and yes i know which one is the right mesmer, still retargeting needs time) and often the mes is out of target again before i even can cast a single skill on him. When he runs out of retargeting skills he still can just disengage and wait for these annoying cds to come back. That axe 3 and illusionary ambush don't have double the cd at least already is just not acceptable. > > > > I personally don't find them annoying when fighting against other axe mirages. Annoying is subjective here - I can retarget after they do axe 3 pretty quickly. Much easier to deal with than stealth - and I'd much rather fight against these two detarget skills than say old PU mesmer or even new high stealth uptime deadeye. Would sooner see stealth nerfed affecting SoM, Decoy, Prestige etc than detarget which IMO is a good mechanic for mesmer in general. > > > > IA only becomes deceptive with Staff (or GS/Scepter) plus 3 clones at range and standing still for a moment - if in open field with good rng positioning, not in aoe damage. If lucky that buys a couple of seconds at most. On sword the player has to move/leap (or not but then easy to pick out from clones), and on axe they're in close enough range to cleave/dodge through clones etc. > > > > If unlucky - on narrow terrain, bad rng port in aoe or cleave, enemies retarget immediately by luck, using weapon that requires player movement, not having enough clones out, getting clones cleaved - then it just becomes a 1s glorified evade. Having spent a year roaming with it, I've seen situations where I've had at least 3-5 seconds against small groups where bad players struggle, situations where it's not moved me at all and just get cleaved out or sit in aoe damage, or where good players see any movement and get straight back on target. Funnily enough the best use of IA I can recall was last year running from a large group porting back up from being mobbed in the river to an enemy on the bridge near SE camp on abl leading to hills - but that was kind of lucky. > > > > We may have to just disagree on this point because I don't believe either axe 3 or IA are a problem, and I know you strongly believe the opposite. > > For everyone doesn't have retargeting skills themself and can't counter them like fire with fire they are a pain. They are way more annoying than stealth. Even tho perma stealth ofc should not exist either. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush have way too short cd for the power they have, in particular are these the skills give mirage too much evade frame, aside from the high dmg pressure and retargeting they give in addition. I would say that is even common sense and why Anet still did not touch them is not understandable. It is acceptable when the mirage cannot get out of target that often, double the cd from both at least and then we can see. Illusionary ambush can be used while stunned but doesn't break the stun most mirages use it as a get out of jail card. Axe 3 is surprisingly hard to land especially if your target is just moving directly away from you. It teleports you to where your target was when u started the animation. So often you just hit air with it, and its the only axe skill that HAS to be avoided. Axe 1 requires melee. And axe 2 should take award for the most interruptable skill in the game. So if you want these skills to have increased CDs. Make axe 3 more reliable, and make illusionary ambush break stun and target. Also revert the nerfed to nomads endurance, and critical infusion. Mirages rely on evading to deal with damage, more so than other classes aside from maybe a daredevil. If you nerf that you need to give other forms of damage mitigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: >They are way more annoying than stealth Stealth hide you entirely and break targeting is not. You can see them (even keep target on top of their head) still and quickly target real one. >Ambush have way too short cd for the power they have, in particular are these the skills give mirage too much evade frame Illusionary ambush not even used ,wake up, its doesnt let you disengage and put you into random location or may bug and dont teleport u at all. Wont be used just as other deceptions. Nerf it for all I care, will never replace signet or blink spot. Axe3 should be 20s cd? Lol what? If they make it 1200 range and increase pure damage from this skill and make it more consistent ,sure . We have classes that have more evades than mesmer :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > (...) > We have classes that have more evades than mesmer :) Oh! Yes! Ele! Let's nerf riptide once more lol. Stupidly OP spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NERF RIPTIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!BUFF SHATTERSTONE!!!!!!! Nailed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > That's actually a major difference between power and condi mesmer in general. Winds of Chaos from clones still inflicts conditions, clones spamming GS lazor beams can absolutely be ignored. The only good damage clones do is with axe ambush which allows to stack insane amount of torment. > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > Which is the way it should be for high damage specs. :wink: > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > Power mesmer could need some boon rip though. Or some more ways to do sustained DPS, I agree on this. Wait, am I talking about mesmer buffs?! HANG ON! Either it's the way it should be or needs more ways to do sustain dps > @"bravan.3876" said: > For everyone doesn't have retargeting skills themself and can't counter them like fire with fire they are a pain. They are way more annoying than stealth. Even tho perma stealth ofc should not exist either. How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"jportell.2197" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > Clearly you need to go to school and learn how to read. > > > > > > > 'Why condi mirage have 10 times more sustain?" ; 'Because noobs use pistol 4-5 and shatter'... > > > > > > > I dont even know where to send you because I doubt anyone can help you ... R I P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pistol 5 and 4 and shatter is the main combo easy burst, it has sustain due to axe which provides more evades and break target than mirage using power which doesn't have those tools, now please learn to read. > > > > > > > > > > Axe has one 0.75s evade/target break which also ports directly at you, so easy to find the mesmer again especially if they shatter. I don't get the issues with axe target break, it takes barely a second or so to retarget or simply cleave/aoe given you know where the mirage is. If they use in wvw to port to an npc or some other target then that's a big burst wasted and nothing to worry about anyway. Most of the time the animation is dodgeable - or even if moving fast enough can miss entirely. > > > > > > > > > > Axe 2 you're a sitting duck during the animation so either encouraged to cover cast with dodge or use in situation where you don't get hit - or get hit and eat damage. This is such a vulnerable skill on its own if not for mirage cloak being able to cover cast and protect it. > > > > > > > > > > Axe auto requires sitting in melee range to hit - not something a mirage is going to be doing for any length of time - as they'll likely have to dodge which then causes ambush cast. > > > > > > > > > > So the only legit issue with axe is potentially shaving the ambush torment duration a fraction - ie down to 3s torment from 4s, given it doesn't require much effort to land and how easily spammable it is. > > > > > > > > > > Power/Condi/Hybrid - whatever, all have similar sustain aside from stats where say in wvw pure condi can go TB cheese (but that is really easy to counter with overloading on cleanse as there's no direct damage). In terms of active defence there's barely much difference in building for evade access or mobility, or even detarget/stealth. Some might have more of one than another, but overall if every spec went pure glass without defensive stats there wouldn't be much in it regarding survivability, and actually power would have the upper hand due to easier and faster ttk. Hybrid/condi benefit is more about having multiple/flexible options for landing damage - ie less punishing for missing burst as there are multiple follow up options, but at the same time burst is lower so more time for an opponent to react/deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > The issues I believe could benefit from balance are: > > > > > Inspiration - overloaded sustain due to new signet trait and synergy with RI/distortion spam. > > > > > Ineptitude - mindless confusion spam through blind application, should be changed. > > > > > Mirage Thrust - preferably removing the clone spawn, but a number of possibilities to bring in line. > > > > > Axe Ambush - as above maybe a slight torment duration shave. > > > > > > > > Excuse me but these retargeting skills are the most annoying things ever to fight against and both axe 3 and illsuionary ambush have way to less cd. They are better than decoy in any way, evade, repositioning from range, detargeting and high dmg pressure form ambushes. Add 1-2 stealth and the mesmer is out of target like 60-70% of the fight. The time he needs to kill you, you are more busy to get him back in target (and yes i know which one is the right mesmer, still retargeting needs time) and often the mes is out of target again before i even can cast a single skill on him. When he runs out of retargeting skills he still can just disengage and wait for these annoying cds to come back. That axe 3 and illusionary ambush don't have double the cd at least already is just not acceptable. > > > > > > I personally don't find them annoying when fighting against other axe mirages. Annoying is subjective here - I can retarget after they do axe 3 pretty quickly. Much easier to deal with than stealth - and I'd much rather fight against these two detarget skills than say old PU mesmer or even new high stealth uptime deadeye. Would sooner see stealth nerfed affecting SoM, Decoy, Prestige etc than detarget which IMO is a good mechanic for mesmer in general. > > > > > > IA only becomes deceptive with Staff (or GS/Scepter) plus 3 clones at range and standing still for a moment - if in open field with good rng positioning, not in aoe damage. If lucky that buys a couple of seconds at most. On sword the player has to move/leap (or not but then easy to pick out from clones), and on axe they're in close enough range to cleave/dodge through clones etc. > > > > > > If unlucky - on narrow terrain, bad rng port in aoe or cleave, enemies retarget immediately by luck, using weapon that requires player movement, not having enough clones out, getting clones cleaved - then it just becomes a 1s glorified evade. Having spent a year roaming with it, I've seen situations where I've had at least 3-5 seconds against small groups where bad players struggle, situations where it's not moved me at all and just get cleaved out or sit in aoe damage, or where good players see any movement and get straight back on target. Funnily enough the best use of IA I can recall was last year running from a large group porting back up from being mobbed in the river to an enemy on the bridge near SE camp on abl leading to hills - but that was kind of lucky. > > > > > > We may have to just disagree on this point because I don't believe either axe 3 or IA are a problem, and I know you strongly believe the opposite. > > > > For everyone doesn't have retargeting skills themself and can't counter them like fire with fire they are a pain. They are way more annoying than stealth. Even tho perma stealth ofc should not exist either. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush have way too short cd for the power they have, in particular are these the skills give mirage too much evade frame, aside from the high dmg pressure and retargeting they give in addition. I would say that is even common sense and why Anet still did not touch them is not understandable. It is acceptable when the mirage cannot get out of target that often, double the cd from both at least and then we can see. > > Illusionary ambush can be used while stunned but doesn't break the stun most mirages use it as a get out of jail card. > > Axe 3 is surprisingly hard to land especially if your target is just moving directly away from you. It teleports you to where your target was when u started the animation. So often you just hit air with it, and its the only axe skill that HAS to be avoided. Axe 1 requires melee. And axe 2 should take award for the most interruptable skill in the game. > > So if you want these skills to have increased CDs. Make axe 3 more reliable, and make illusionary ambush break stun and target. > > Also revert the nerfed to nomads endurance, and critical infusion. > > Mirages rely on evading to deal with damage, more so than other classes aside from maybe a daredevil. If you nerf that you need to give other forms of damage mitigation. Adding to your points, if, and I do mean IF Anet think there is an issue with axe 3 detarget on a low cooldown, it would be better to remove the detarget and put it on another deception utility rather than raising the cooldown, because I agree as you say axe 3 is the only significant animation to avoid and it can be difficult to land vs some classes and good players (or even just bad luck with terrain) given moving can make it miss or simply seeing and dodging the animation. The cooldown of axe 3 as a burst damage attack is perfect and raising it would harm axe's ability to reliably burst. (but as said in previous post I think it's fine as it is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > Hold on. They do _not_ have the same sustain. Or we do have a different understanding of "sustain". > > > > > > 1. Illusions instead of domination. More shatters, meaning more blinds. More torch stealth and cleanses. Better dazes... can be used defensively, well, definitely worse though. > > > 2. Signet instead of mantra. Okay, this might even out, though mantra is usually used purely for offense. > > > 3. Much more health/healing through carrion or sage amulet versus marauder. > > > 4. On condi mirage both weapon sets have defensive and offensive abilities. Axe 3, scepter 2, staff 2 and all those. On power mesmer GS is completely offensive. That's where his main burst comes from and that's where you are supposed to burst him. > > > 5. Confusion and torment prevent proper counterpressure. > > > 6. Different sigils and runes too. usually more defensive on condi mirage (adventurer's). > > > > > > As I said, in the current meta power mesmer would deserve some more DPS over a longer time. Or some boon strip. But having low sustain is okay as long as the damage is there. > > > > Illusions is not significantly less glassy than Domination - 24s prestige and slightly lower shatter cooldowns don't make a huge amount of difference. Inspiration however... yeah that needs to be looked at, although that's another line useable by power/hybrid or condi. > > > > Stats are something that can be adjusted independently - so I agree that certain amulets or wvw gear have more defensive stats for condi, in practice it doesn't add much to facetanking damage due to how high overall damage is - where a dodge is infinitely scalable. I'm speaking here more from a wvw point of view where no amount of defensive stats will save someone for long. > > > > Staff 2... I'm not sure how well that can be quantified given staff has little ability to contribute to burst (unless IH lining clones for might stack plus ambush and burst) and relies on kiting to mitigate damage - but has no way to truly evade like say sword 2 - GS on the other hand in pure power has the potential to delete an opponent and end a fight quickly on a low cooldown with F1, so there is worthwhile trade off. Scepter can be used in full power too due to crazy power scaling on say skill 3, so this is a hybrid weapon able to be used well in any stat - just that GS has more burst potential. Otherwise it is possible to play say Sw/x Sc/x power maybe with some defensive/bruiser mix in wvw. Even axe can be used in power with axe 3's direct damage component giving decent crits, although better off hybrid to get the most out of it. > > > > Condis can be cleansed though and continue attacking, I'd sooner eat some stacks of torment/confusion that I can cleanse off rather than say a 15k power burst which puts the opponent on the back foot at a huge disadvantage. > > > > Adventurer is another one of the things incentivising mirage to hybrid for optimal play - as both pure power or pure condi wouldn't benefit as much from the stats here. However it only benefits most when used with low cooldown heal like traited mirror - on longer heals like FO it loses some value and other runes can be beneficial. Otherwise things like energy sigils, food in wvw, utility skills and multi purpose weapons like sword (and even scepter or axe) are useable across a range of stat sets. > > > > Anyway the point is similar survivability options (not same), some slightly more some slightly less, but not vastly different other than GS being pure offence only. > > Well, we can agree to disagree on the point. And I am mainly speaking about PVP, so less about hybrid, which is... well, it only really happens in WvW (though the common condi amulets used do have power too). But: > > 1. Yeah, not too significant difference here. > 2. Power needs marauder. Nothing else works. Condi has always higher sustain on the amulets in PVP. > 3. No power mesmer uses scepter. Always sword/x and GS, because you need the burst from GS. When "sustain" means "lol so much damage you kill enemies before they attack you", then... well, different opinions. :wink: 3. > 4. Those two conditions do prevent attacks though, hindering abilities to counterattack. The counterplay is to "stand" and "do nothing". > 5. In PVP, no power mesmer uses it, because the ambush skills are much worse for them. Again, different thing in WvW, agreed. > > In total, absolutely disagree, condi mirage has much more sustain. WvW hybrid mirage is a totally different thing, I agree with that. In terms of the pvp meta builds and amulet I see some of your points - though think some of this can be alleviated by amulet stat changes. Regarding point 3, yeah that's due to pvp limited stats - whereas in wvw you can build a pure power bruiser using Sc/x Sw/x and some defensive stats with say Chaos or Inspiration which would be tankier than pure glass grieving or viper hybrid and potentially have more sustain depending on trait lines. Sure the F1 burst would be lower compared with pure zerker/marauder, but it would still be classed as a pure power build. 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Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > Hold on. They do _not_ have the same sustain. Or we do have a different understanding of "sustain". > > > > > > > > 1. Illusions instead of domination. More shatters, meaning more blinds. More torch stealth and cleanses. Better dazes... can be used defensively, well, definitely worse though. > > > > 2. Signet instead of mantra. Okay, this might even out, though mantra is usually used purely for offense. > > > > 3. Much more health/healing through carrion or sage amulet versus marauder. > > > > 4. On condi mirage both weapon sets have defensive and offensive abilities. Axe 3, scepter 2, staff 2 and all those. On power mesmer GS is completely offensive. That's where his main burst comes from and that's where you are supposed to burst him. > > > > 5. Confusion and torment prevent proper counterpressure. > > > > 6. Different sigils and runes too. usually more defensive on condi mirage (adventurer's). > > > > > > > > As I said, in the current meta power mesmer would deserve some more DPS over a longer time. Or some boon strip. But having low sustain is okay as long as the damage is there. > > > > > > Illusions is not significantly less glassy than Domination - 24s prestige and slightly lower shatter cooldowns don't make a huge amount of difference. Inspiration however... yeah that needs to be looked at, although that's another line useable by power/hybrid or condi. > > > > > > Stats are something that can be adjusted independently - so I agree that certain amulets or wvw gear have more defensive stats for condi, in practice it doesn't add much to facetanking damage due to how high overall damage is - where a dodge is infinitely scalable. I'm speaking here more from a wvw point of view where no amount of defensive stats will save someone for long. > > > > > > Staff 2... I'm not sure how well that can be quantified given staff has little ability to contribute to burst (unless IH lining clones for might stack plus ambush and burst) and relies on kiting to mitigate damage - but has no way to truly evade like say sword 2 - GS on the other hand in pure power has the potential to delete an opponent and end a fight quickly on a low cooldown with F1, so there is worthwhile trade off. Scepter can be used in full power too due to crazy power scaling on say skill 3, so this is a hybrid weapon able to be used well in any stat - just that GS has more burst potential. Otherwise it is possible to play say Sw/x Sc/x power maybe with some defensive/bruiser mix in wvw. Even axe can be used in power with axe 3's direct damage component giving decent crits, although better off hybrid to get the most out of it. > > > > > > Condis can be cleansed though and continue attacking, I'd sooner eat some stacks of torment/confusion that I can cleanse off rather than say a 15k power burst which puts the opponent on the back foot at a huge disadvantage. > > > > > > Adventurer is another one of the things incentivising mirage to hybrid for optimal play - as both pure power or pure condi wouldn't benefit as much from the stats here. However it only benefits most when used with low cooldown heal like traited mirror - on longer heals like FO it loses some value and other runes can be beneficial. Otherwise things like energy sigils, food in wvw, utility skills and multi purpose weapons like sword (and even scepter or axe) are useable across a range of stat sets. > > > > > > Anyway the point is similar survivability options (not same), some slightly more some slightly less, but not vastly different other than GS being pure offence only. > > > > Well, we can agree to disagree on the point. And I am mainly speaking about PVP, so less about hybrid, which is... well, it only really happens in WvW (though the common condi amulets used do have power too). But: > > > > 1. Yeah, not too significant difference here. > > 2. Power needs marauder. Nothing else works. Condi has always higher sustain on the amulets in PVP. > > 3. No power mesmer uses scepter. Always sword/x and GS, because you need the burst from GS. When "sustain" means "lol so much damage you kill enemies before they attack you", then... well, different opinions. :wink: 3. > > 4. Those two conditions do prevent attacks though, hindering abilities to counterattack. The counterplay is to "stand" and "do nothing". > > 5. In PVP, no power mesmer uses it, because the ambush skills are much worse for them. Again, different thing in WvW, agreed. > > > > In total, absolutely disagree, condi mirage has much more sustain. WvW hybrid mirage is a totally different thing, I agree with that. > > In terms of the pvp meta builds and amulet I see some of your points - though think some of this can be alleviated by amulet stat changes. > > Regarding point 3, yeah that's due to pvp limited stats - whereas in wvw you can build a pure power bruiser using Sc/x Sw/x and some defensive stats with say Chaos or Inspiration which would be tankier than pure glass grieving or viper hybrid and potentially have more sustain depending on trait lines. Sure the F1 burst would be lower compared with pure zerker/marauder, but it would still be classed as a pure power build. Yepp, true, in WvW it's a very different matter. Hybrid uses most of the common condi sustains while having solid power damage. Kind of. I am not too much into WvW. :smile: > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > (...) > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > Which is the way it should be for high damage specs. :wink: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > Power mesmer could need some boon rip though. Or some more ways to do sustained DPS, I agree on this. Wait, am I talking about mesmer buffs?! HANG ON! > > Either it's the way it should be or needs more ways to do sustain dps > > (...) It should be "high burst, low sustain". Anet abandoned this quite some time ago though. Since we have a lot of other classes - condi mirage being only one of them, others are holo, spellbreaker, soulbeast to a lesser extent - being side node sustainers with ridiculously high damage, power mesmer in general would need more sustained DPS or something else to be a valuable choice, since it lacks their sustain. Which is not gonna happen, I just wish they'd revert the CS nerf. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? Because stealth doesn't include a random repositioning, Even when a target has teleports up i can predict his movement in stealth by knowing what cds he still has up and what positioning would be logical for him to choose. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush repositioning is completely random. Some questions make me wonder with how few common sense and tactical predictions ppl play this game... > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > >They are way more annoying than stealth > Stealth hide you entirely and break targeting is not. You can see them (even keep target on top of their head) still and quickly target real one. > >Ambush have way too short cd for the power they have, in particular are these the skills give mirage too much evade frame > Illusionary ambush not even used ,wake up, its doesnt let you disengage and put you into random location or may bug and dont teleport u at all. Wont be used just as other deceptions. Nerf it for all I care, will never replace signet or blink spot. > Axe3 should be 20s cd? Lol what? If they make it 1200 range and increase pure damage from this skill and make it more consistent ,sure . > We have classes that have more evades than mesmer :) Ofc it is used, watch dATs and you see quite a few mesmer using it. It is not used for mobility it is used for carrying in duels on a side node class and thats exactly what it is op at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? > Because stealth doesn't include a random repositioning, Even when a target has teleports up i can predict his movement in stealth by knowing what cds he still has up and what positioning would be logical for him to choose. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush repositioning is completely random. Some questions make me wonder with how few common sense and tactical predictions ppl play this game... > The way I play it is very situational which one is better. Do I want to disengage and LoS for some time and maybe some CDs? Then signet with invisibility is better. Fighting (on point) evading some burst and delaying proper counter attacks? Well, obviously axe 3. :smile: I couldn't decide which one is "better", because I wouldn't use it in the same situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? > > Because stealth doesn't include a random repositioning, Even when a target has teleports up i can predict his movement in stealth by knowing what cds he still has up and what positioning would be logical for him to choose. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush repositioning is completely random. Some questions make me wonder with how few common sense and tactical predictions ppl play this game... > > > > The way I play it is very situational which one is better. Do I want to disengage and LoS for some time and maybe some CDs? Then signet with invisibility is better. Fighting (on point) evading some burst and delaying proper counter attacks? Well, obviously axe 3. :smile: I couldn't decide which one is "better", because I wouldn't use it in the same situations. > > That is totally not the point. I was talking about why it is more annoying to fight against a retargeting skill than a stealthskill. In particular when the retargeting skill also applies so much pressure dmg in the same moment and also gives an evade. The cds for these powerful skills are just way too low. I am fine with removing the retargeting from axe3 to prevent a cd increase, even tho it would probably even be a weaker weapon than with this powerful skill on a not broken low cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? > > > Because stealth doesn't include a random repositioning, Even when a target has teleports up i can predict his movement in stealth by knowing what cds he still has up and what positioning would be logical for him to choose. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush repositioning is completely random. Some questions make me wonder with how few common sense and tactical predictions ppl play this game... > > > > > > > The way I play it is very situational which one is better. Do I want to disengage and LoS for some time and maybe some CDs? Then signet with invisibility is better. Fighting (on point) evading some burst and delaying proper counter attacks? Well, obviously axe 3. :smile: I couldn't decide which one is "better", because I wouldn't use it in the same situations. > > > > > > That is totally not the point. I was talking about why it is more annoying to fight against a retargeting skill than a stealthskill. In particular when the retargeting skill also applies so much pressure dmg in the same moment and also gives an evade. The cds for these powerful skills are just way too low. I am fine with removing the retargeting from axe3 to prevent a cd increase, even tho it would probably even be a weaker weapon than with this powerful skill on a not broken low cd. Ah, okay, got it, sorry. Well. I don't know, I find stealth pretty annoying too, but mostly on DEs... :lol: I would love to see a lot of powerful CDs being increased again, for that matter, so... yeah, agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > How come skills that breaks target are more annoying than ones that breaks target and stealths? > > > > Because stealth doesn't include a random repositioning, Even when a target has teleports up i can predict his movement in stealth by knowing what cds he still has up and what positioning would be logical for him to choose. Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush repositioning is completely random. Some questions make me wonder with how few common sense and tactical predictions ppl play this game... > > > > > > > > > > The way I play it is very situational which one is better. Do I want to disengage and LoS for some time and maybe some CDs? Then signet with invisibility is better. Fighting (on point) evading some burst and delaying proper counter attacks? Well, obviously axe 3. :smile: I couldn't decide which one is "better", because I wouldn't use it in the same situations. > > > > > > > > > > That is totally not the point. I was talking about why it is more annoying to fight against a retargeting skill than a stealthskill. In particular when the retargeting skill also applies so much pressure dmg in the same moment and also gives an evade. The cds for these powerful skills are just way too low. I am fine with removing the retargeting from axe3 to prevent a cd increase, even tho it would probably even be a weaker weapon than with this powerful skill on a not broken low cd. > > Ah, okay, got it, sorry. Well. I don't know, I find stealth pretty annoying too, but mostly on DEs... :lol: > > I would love to see a lot of powerful CDs being increased again, for that matter, so... yeah, agreed! No problem^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Ofc it is used, watch dATs and you see quite a few mesmer using it. It is not used for mobility it is used for carrying in duels on a side node class and thats exactly what it is op at. > And whos streams I supposed to watch? I only knew 2 good mesmers on EU(which arent streaming anymore?) . Long ago reading people posts from NA I had feeling that they live in another dimension . May be thats the case? xD And yes , long time ago I tried IA and that was fun for a while but found signet is a better choice overall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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