Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[Zawn.9647]

lol... tldr?

[Ovark.2514]

> @"ChartFish.1308" said:

> So rare to see people actually *play* a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

>

> You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

 

It doesn't take a genius to know when something is op when you've played sPVP pretty much since launch, even it you've barely played the class. There are advantages and drawbacks to every meta build as OP detailed with his rating system. Even though I never played mesmer in sPVP pre HoT I still eventually learned how to beat it through there practice and perseverance. When spellbreaker (and most of POF elite specs) first came out I was frustrated at the inability of any non-PoF build to combat them. Now, however, Spellbreakers and the like aren't a problem to fight on even a Berserker (elite spec) for me. Condi Mirage however is still just as frustrating and impossible to fight a year into the xpac. I understand that some match-ups I'm not supposed to be able to win while using a specific build. In those cases I cut my losses and retreat to an area of the map were I can have a better match up. Problems arise though, when you know you're dead even when you've started retreating because the condi mirage sees you from over 1200 range away and decides to engage. At least if a condi thief decides to engage you from that distance, it has to use up it's initiative on SB 6 or its shadow step or a one-off steal with 17 sec cd or so. This leaves the thief much less initiative for choking gas to pressure you.

[jportell.2197]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"ChartFish.1308" said:

> > So rare to see people actually *play* a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

> >

> > You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

>

> It doesn't take a genius to know when something is op when you've played sPVP pretty much since launch, even it you've barely played the class. There are advantages and drawbacks to every meta build as OP detailed with his rating system. Even though I never played mesmer in sPVP pre HoT I still eventually learned how to beat it through there practice and perseverance. When spellbreaker (and most of POF elite specs) first came out I was frustrated at the inability of any non-PoF build to combat them. Now, however, Spellbreakers and the like aren't a problem to fight on even a Berserker (elite spec) for me. Condi Mirage however is still just as frustrating and impossible to fight a year into the xpac. I understand that some match-ups I'm not supposed to be able to win while using a specific build. In those cases I cut my losses and retreat to an area of the map were I can have a better match up. Problems arise though, when you know you're dead even when you've started retreating because the condi mirage sees you from over 1200 range away and decides to engage. At least if a condi thief decides to engage you from that distance, it has to use up it's initiative on SB 6 or its shadow step or a one-off steal with 17 sec cd or so. This leaves the thief much less initiative for choking gas to pressure you.

 

I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

[Ovark.2514]

 

> I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

 

So you're saying you only care about the fun had by players on the leaderboards? If so, that sounds pretty selfish.

[jportell.2197]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

>

> > I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

>

> So you're saying you only care about the fun had by players on the leaderboards? If so, that sounds pretty selfish.

 

No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

[jportell.2197]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> True story:

>

What I draw from this is you played some unranked games and just your knowledge of the game allowed you to gank noobs in unranked. Mirage is the LEAST represented class on the leaderboard atm. That should definitely say something.

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> I'm currently legendary condi mesmer (but i don't care about rating cus....

 

Thanks for putting this at the start. It saved me from reading the massive wall of content probably containing the same

 

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> >

> > > I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

> >

> > So you're saying you only care about the fun had by players on the leaderboards? If so, that sounds pretty selfish.

>

> No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

 

You have access to the stats?

 

Because "Bro, they told me on discord their main, and besides they are in my guild....I know them" ?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"incisorr.9502"

 

1. I never said anything about Condi Mirage not requiring skill. I pointed out how much easier it was to play than a Power Mirage.

2. 1v1ing has absolutely nothing to with the point of this discussion, which is where Condi Mirage fits into the intra-class balance.

3. You're right, the ranking system is incredibly flawed. But over the years I have come to the conclusion that it actually isn't the algorithm's fault. it is mainly the fault of win trading and smurfing on convenient to use f2p accounts. Also, the statement about "getting more real matches above 1700" was hilarious considering how widely acknowledged and cliché match manipulation has become.

4. Saying that you go for 10 games without seeing other Condi Mirages on your team? My good bro, did it ever occur to you that you ARE the Condi Mirage in every one of those ten games.

5. That stark defense about "How Condi Mirage certainly has class counters." You know, I don't think Mesmer mains realize what an actual class counter feels like. Go get a thief and try to 1v1 a DH, that's a class counter.

6. You DARE ME TO FIGHT SOMEONE 1V1 FROM PLAT 3 OR HIGHER? I do it multiple times just about every time I run ATs. Funny you bring that up actually. I notice that I very often win 1v1s and matches in general against these 1700+ players while in ATs, but during ranked ques I seem to always be on the losing end of the match, as if all of my players are lagging and DCing or not trying at all. Isn't that kitten weird? I dunno, make sense of it for yourself.

7. Don't you dare try to turn the table on Power vs. Condi Mirage. Power Mirage requires seriously immersing gameplay attitude to jive & thrive with while playing. Power Mirage can die instantly if anything goes wrong in any way, and to be able to land those bursts against higher tiered opponents requires the player to infinitely pull out of his kitten, a never ending cycle of new creative ways to pull it off. I have to tip my hat to any good Power Mirage players.

8. You say unranked games during ranked seasons are bad, but I notice that I play against the very same people in unranked that I do in ranked. The only difference is that no one has an incentive to win trade in unranked.

9. You compare 20k Soulbeast Rapid Fire to Condi Mirage as if Condi Mirage were weak. <- This was a mistake in your rebuttal. First of all, for a Soulbeast to deal 20k damage with a Rapid Fire you'd need to be running Berserker and a full DPS spec, similar to what I main actually. This means that you have little to no condi cleanse outside of Bear Stance and maybe Quick Zephyr paired with Wilderness Knowledge. The truth to your statement "and every Soulbeast main knows this" is that a Condi Mirage can instantly teleport/stay on you and pound out the attrition while avoiding your intial burst, and in no time at all, the Soulbeast goes down. The only way the high DPS Soulbeast has any chance of winning that match up is if it lands a lot of damage on the Mirage's approach, and thereafter gets lucky landing a WI or Maul that criticals before Bear Stances effects wear off, because when Bear Stance ends, he'll be downed in seconds.

10. You actually tried to not only downplay Portal Entre's worth, but act as if it were currently useless. I'm actually not going to comment on this.

11. There are these statements you keep making about how useless condi is in this current meta. But we aren't talking about conditions in general, we are talking about Condi Mirage specifically. You also point out how Condi Mirage is actually hybrid of power/condi damage I couldn't agree with you more on that. Considering as much, don't you think the sheer frequency in condi application and intensity of stacks provided is definitely applicable and useful damage? I would say it is considering it can land a damage spike that is just as high as a Power Mirage, while maintaining far more defensive stature.

12. You keep saying that "Power Mirage is stronger". Maybe in SOME situations it is the better choice, but usually Condi Mirage is the solid contender over Power Mirage.

 

@"jportell.2197"

 

Yes but the top of the leaderboards doesn't exactly represent any fair play and/or real demonstration of class performance in real matches either. We can all pretend that match manipulation isn't REAL but it is and there is no coincidence that "every time", might I stress "every time" I have had a match against a top 10 player this season, I mysteriously get a DC on my team. "every time"

 

Why is it happening? Well streaming seems to be linked to all of the obvious win trading I've seen this season. I'm pretty sure what is left of the win trading community is just predominantly about commercial interests via twitch. It's real simple to understand "no one wants to watch a loser." <- It's true, I know it's true, they know it's true, although it's hush to ever discuss these things publicly for obvious reasons. It's whatever in my book at this point, but don't you dare even act like that shit is real and use it as a sword while discussing class balance. I mean it's no different of an incentive than flooding a twitch chat with a load of bots that randomly talk about random things for 6 hours while someone is streaming, to make it look active. They do what they have to do to remain noticed, I get it. Not saying all of them, but a lot of them do. Just don't bring that fake shit in as a sword into real discussions. It isn't right and it's embarrassing.

 

 

[Ovark.2514]

 

> No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

 

"Sick of MY class . . . " so the truth comes out. I'm plat btw.

[Exedore.6320]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

You can't balance purely on the top; everyone else will quit, and the game will die.

Case in point: Turret engi from before HoT. Top players didn't mind it and actually liked seeing an opposing one because they knew how to exploit its weaknesses. But 90% of the playerbase was incredibly frustrated by its ultra low risk / high reward gameplay.

 

You need balance at all levels of play. The top needs finer balance, but you can't let glaring problems for 90% of the players run amok either.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

 

 

Trevor Boyer.6524

Nice write up.

 

 

 

[jportell.2197]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

> You can't balance purely on the top; everyone else will quit, and the game will die.

> Case in point: Turret engi from before HoT. Top players didn't mind it and actually liked seeing an opposing one because they knew how to exploit its weaknesses. But 90% of the playerbase was incredibly frustrated by its ultra low risk / high reward gameplay.

>

> You need balance at all levels of play. The top needs finer balance, but you can't let glaring problems for 90% of the players run amok either.

 

Yes and condi mirage is still not nearly as cancerous as turret engi was. Not even close.

 

Condi mirage has plenty of counters.

 

Condi mirage can put out reliably 2-3 damaging condis, torment, confusion, bleed, and burn on long CDS. Most classes can cleanse these very easily.

 

This spec has been nerfed, then nerfed again, had traits completely gutted, duration of conditioins reduced, then reduced again.

If you nerf the sustain that it has through target breaking and stealth, you better give it the uptime on boons and condi cleanse of other classes.

I actually enjoy fighting condi mirage because usually the ones who try rolling it are people like those here, that think its SOOOOOO easy and brain dead. With the nerfs to ineptitude, and confusion as a whole this class is still not the best even when it comes to condis.

[NationalNacho.5972]

hi

 

"* Self Sustain © for Power and (S) for Condi"

You are aware the difference between the two defensively is, staff 2 and chaos armor? (gs 5 vs chaos storm is a pretty even debate imo, but I guess you could include that if you liked) everything else is the exact same assuming you take the two most competitive builds.

 

I agree mirage stomps bad players. Its similar to a degree to HoT DH.

 

There are other classes that require less game knowledge to be effective, let me quote myself from a previous thread of yours:

 

"As a high rated player (Monthly winner etc) Id rather get a pug reaper, holo, core guard, dps firebrand, axe soulbeast - Than some random mirage that I have no clue who they are. The skill floor for all those builds is significantly lower than mirage, they will be more effective in fights assuming the skill level is similar.

 

Even playing near the skill cap of the class other mid tier players (on other classes, IE: holo) will still find successful situations more frequently and with less amount of outplay required when compared to a top tier mirage player in ranked. Holo can move anywhere on the map and find value, team fights, 1v1s, in roads, outnumbering, and while outnumbered. Mirage can outnumber well (has decent burst), can 1v1 kinda for short duration assuming similar skill level. If it did not have portal it would not be taken in competitive play as is."

 

Fighting Mirage is entirely on you to learn to play if you're playing any of the common meta builds. High tier mirage has few winning matchups, the best ones are probably ele or warrior and they still takes too long to kill in a competitive game .

 

There are some things that could be nerfed on mirage but they'd only be regarding axe and pistol + the related traits. Personally Id love for the stunbreak to be removed from EM while also removing the exhaustion, let it just be a condi cleanse on dodge. The trait was questionable design from the beginning and now its a disaster proving annoying for both enemy and the mirage (proc'ing exhaustion off daze, or when not desired)

 

Nerfing mirage in other ways might knock it out of viability, which is not good for the game, mirage makes it fun high tier, there are rotational outplays that are not possible without portal. Already as is, last monthly the EU winning team, won w/o a mesmer.

 

Reckless

[Luna.6203]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

 

> * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil

 

I'm not sure about this.. you can't kill what you can't see...

 

 

[witcher.3197]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> There was a small discussion about it on stream this morning, where power mesmer was compared to "cheese p/p thief where you press 1 button all day" by a dev

 

What stream? Can you PM me a VOD of that if I ask nicely?

 

 

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

Going to nitpick on daredevil support should be atleast a B+ with having the best access to group stealth for engages with blackpowder + clusterbomb spam + blinding powder. Additionally trickery steal is the best way to reliably interrupt key skills like firebrand signet res and signet of agility is a decent group condi cleanse. Absolutely not an E+ rating.

[MikeL.8260]

A couple of things I picked from this Thread and wanted to comment on;

 

Portal and it's usefulness. I have never seen proper use of portal in solo que, by picking it up myself I always find it to be utterly useless except in very few cases where it helped me make some good plays - solo plays.

 

And about balancing around high divisions. What it means is..

''To use the knowledge of high ranking players to improve class balance''.

What exactly do you find wrong in that sentence?

[jportell.2197]

> @"MikeL.8260" said:

> A couple of things I picked from this Thread and wanted to comment on;

>

> Portal and it's usefulness. I have never seen proper use of portal in solo que, by picking it up myself I always find it to be utterly useless except in very few cases where it helped me make some good plays - solo plays.

>

> And about balancing around high divisions. What it means is..

> ''To use the knowledge of high ranking players to improve class balance''.

> What exactly do you find wrong in that sentence?

 

I personally find mirage advance to be much better in soloque. The blind plus teleport and break Target on return are just too good. It's helped me manage a couple of 2v1s.

 

To the second point I absolutely agree. Most higher level players I go against seem to have no problem when dealing with my condis. It seems to be a forum warrior issue.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"NationalNacho.5972" That quote that you quoted from me, was not from me.

 

@"Luna.6203" The sustain factor was incorporating ability to stay engaged in a fight. Stealthing and disengages were including in mobility.

 

@"ArthurDent.9538" The support/utility factor was incorporating direct supports & utilities like AoE healing & booning or something like Portal Entre essentially allowing 1 player to be in 2 places at the same time, not so much team combat tactics.

 

@"MikeL.8260" Portal Entre useless? Man, in the 10 matches I ran as Condi Mirage I quickly figured out how powerful Portal Entre was and it didn't even require any expertise to use it. IE: I cap home and then lay a portal and then I go to mid. Now I am in 2 places at the same time rotationally. This forces opponents to see that I am in two places at the same time, as if I had 5 players on my team rotationally. They either go to home knowing they will engage a Condi Mirage and likely lose the 1v1 or avoid the home node knowing that they will lose a 1v1 at the home node. That's an enormous amount of rotational power and that's not even getting into explanation of more advanced use of Portal Entre. You guys need to stop this argument that Portal Entre is useless because a skill that essentially allows the positioning of a 5th person on your team in the map, is ridiculously powerful in a Conquest match designed around holding and defending 3 nodes. About your comment on "high ranking players." just stop comparing the world of win trading to actual performance. I'm so kitten tired of hearing that kitten, just stop. After they implemented ATs and we were really able to see the true performance of these "top players" in actual 5v5 teams in a situation where they can't plant a DC or a throw on our teams, it only strengthened the identification of how much win trading was going on in ranked play.

[Aktium.9506]

remov mesmer

[NationalNacho.5972]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

 

"let me quote myself from a previous thread of yours" - I was quoting myself, in one of the other threads you started.

 

"* Self Sustain © for Power and (S) for Condi" - This was from your own original post.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"NationalNacho.5972" said:

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524"

>

> "let me quote myself from a previous thread of yours" - I was quoting myself, in one of the other threads you started.

>

> "* Self Sustain © for Power and (S) for Condi" - This was from your own original post.

 

Ah gotcha, misread that.

[Poelala.2830]

In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

[jportell.2197]

> @"Poelala.2830" said:

> In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

 

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