Mirage/mesmer is OP?

[Daishi.6027]

If you can read and dodge shatters you can beat any mesmer.

If you can read and dodge back stabs you can beat any D/P thief.

If you can read and dodge you can reliably avoid DE snipes.

If you can properly play around necro shroud you can beat any reaper and core nec.

If you know when to burst an ele so he can't bunk and heal to full you can beat any of them as well.

The list goes on, this is pure facts many have done it.

 

Mes shatters kill bads, but we shouldn't balance for bads. They will either A. Get better and learn to play around mechanics. or B. Stay bad.

Far more likely will achieve A, and so it makes much more sense to cater balance towards the majority who will.

 

**We balance for 5v5 conquest**, no one cares what you can do 1v1 vs randoms off point, in Arena pit, or against randos in WvW maps who are probably worse than people who cannot climb out of bronze or even know what it is. Not saying you HAVE to play conquest, but this is the criteria of balance that devs focus on. **I have yet to see anyone here argue anything related directly to conquest or how it impacts matches in such a way as to be OP.**

 

Even IF mirage were 100% imba 1v1, which is false since _anyone who knows what they are doing can even the matchup, and let it come down to who can out play who better_; It would still be fine since it is not directly imba for conquest.

 

Yes I agree Condi can use a few changes, synergy with blind output being one of a few I advocate for. But even if it is slightly over tuned anyone can kill or push it off point with any medium class (I do it all the time) or guard. which is almost half the roster. (and guard doesn't even need to try lol, I can kill mirages in my sleep with it.)

 

PS. Power should have been left untouched (and frankly should be compensated).

[Master Ketsu.4569]

ITT mental gymnastics defending a class that can unload its entire skillbar on someone before its invulns run out.

 

 

[viquing.8254]

Hopefully we didn't talk about other spec who didn't even need invuln to unload entire skillbar because it seems way harder to defend.

[brappish.8715]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> If you can read and dodge shatters you can beat any mesmer.

> If you can read and dodge back stabs you can beat any D/P thief.

> If you can read and dodge you can reliably avoid DE snipes.

> If you can properly play around necro shroud you can beat any reaper and core nec.

> If you know when to burst an ele so he can't bunk and heal to full you can beat any of them as well.

> The list goes on, this is pure facts many have done it.

>

> Mes shatters kill bads, but we shouldn't balance for bads. They will either A. Get better and learn to play around mechanics. or B. Stay bad.

> Far more likely will achieve A, and so it makes much more sense to cater balance towards the majority who will.

>

> **We balance for 5v5 conquest**, no one cares what you can do 1v1 vs randoms off point, in Arena pit, or against randos in WvW maps who are probably worse than people who cannot climb out of bronze or even know what it is. Not saying you HAVE to play conquest, but this is the criteria of balance that devs focus on. **I have yet to see anyone here argue anything related directly to conquest or how it impacts matches in such a way as to be OP.**

>

> Even IF mirage were 100% imba 1v1, which is false since _anyone who knows what they are doing can even the matchup, and let it come down to who can out play who better_; It would still be fine since it is not directly imba for conquest.

>

> Yes I agree Condi can use a few changes, synergy with blind output being one of a few I advocate for. But even if it is slightly over tuned anyone can kill or push it off point with any medium class (I do it all the time) or guard. which is almost half the roster. (and guard doesn't even need to try lol, I can kill mirages in my sleep with it.)

>

> PS. Power should have been left untouched (and frankly should be compensated).

 

*tilts hat*

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> ITT mental gymnastics defending a class that can unload its entire skillbar on someone before its invulns run out.

>

>

 

If you know your opponent is going to blow their entire skill bar including their defensive cooldowns to engage you, all you have to do is defend yourself as a response.

Now your opponent now has nothing to defend themselves with and already blew all their damage.

 

There are more nuanced factors to this. Maybe they have more options following the burst, like most classes do; including escaping.

However regardless the burst at that moment is now done and you can take action to press the advantage.

Maybe you expect them to defend with something on the back burner. So in response bait an attack, stow weapon is your friend or just poke with auto if at range. Let your opponent waste their cooldowns.

Also take the meta of conquest into consideration, and you may find even more options for counter play, if not vs the individual; vs the enemy team.

 

I don't see how this or playing around your opponent is mental gymnastics, at least nothing beyond the expected reasonable amount of cognitive ability for combat. If someone is lacking that, that is their problem and something they should work on instead of demanding the world lower itself to their level.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > ITT mental gymnastics defending a class that can unload its entire skillbar on someone before its invulns run out.

> >

> >

>

> If you know your opponent is going to blow their entire skill bar including their defensive cooldowns to engage you, all you have to do is defend yourself as a response.

> Now your opponent now has nothing to defend themselves with and already blew all their damage.

 

What you are talking about is ironically the very reason why mirage is overpowered. Because it doesn't have to choose between attacking or defense, it is the mirage that can wait out the classes that are forced to make that choice and then punish their cooldowns, not the other way around. Mirage is in fact one of the top 3 specs in the game for cheesing other peoples CDs.

 

Just because they can invuln for their entire offensive combo, doesn't mean they are always going to. It's about **having the options available** that makes the spec busted. Mirage has 15-20 options per any given situation, while other classes have 5-9. Is my opponent using defensive skills? Don't pop mirage cloak, counter whatever defensive option they are cycling through. Oh they are attacking me now? Pop mirage cloak, keep doing whatever I want. Oh they are out of defenses? Punish with shatter. Did I make a mistake? Portal get out of jail free, wait for own CDs, return.

 

There is a very good reason why pretty much every top player and high ranked streamer has called Mirage a class-carry. People need to stop mistaking their own shortcomings with the class as evidence that it is somehow fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > ITT mental gymnastics defending a class that can unload its entire skillbar on someone before its invulns run out.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If you know your opponent is going to blow their entire skill bar including their defensive cooldowns to engage you, all you have to do is defend yourself as a response.

> > Now your opponent now has nothing to defend themselves with and already blew all their damage.

>

> What you are talking about is ironically the very reason why mirage is overpowered. Because it doesn't have to choose between attacking or defense, it is the mirage that can wait out the classes that are forced to make that choice and then punish their cooldowns, not the other way around. Mirage is in fact one of the top 3 specs in the game for cheesing other peoples CDs.

>

> Just because they can invuln for their entire offensive combo, doesn't mean they are always going to. It's about **having the options available** that makes the spec busted. Mirage has 15-20 options per any given situation, while other classes have 5-9. Is my opponent using defensive skills? Don't pop mirage cloak, counter whatever defensive option they are cycling through. Oh they are attacking me now? Pop mirage cloak, keep doing whatever I want. Oh they are out of defenses? Punish with shatter. Did I make a mistake? Portal get out of jail free, wait for own CDs, return.

>

> There is a very good reason why pretty much every top player and high ranked streamer has called Mirage a class-carry. People need to stop mistaking their own shortcomings with the class as evidence that it is somehow fine.

 

Why don't you accept the fact that some classes are better at one role then others?

 

More you go up in the ladder and the less you see mirages, now it's all a fiesta of boonbeasts (top 1vs1 duelist node holder) and holosmiths (second top 1vs1 duelist with good team fights).

 

Mirage is used only for portal as always, which is a core skill btw.

Go watch any high good mesmer streamer and teacher of pvp, the thing everybody say is:

"Don't play mesmer if you don't play portal."

 

I dont know what class you play, but maybe you are one of those reapers who goes on a side node completely alone and lose a 1vs1 and complain with the rest of team or in forum that the class is bad, when you should kitten learn that reaper is a team fighter and not a damn 1vs1 duelist side noder.

 

Mirage is ranted by bronze silver and gold players because are the majority of the pvp population obviously, never seen complains in high level pvp, soulbeast now gets much more hate than mirage in hig level plays.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

^

I play every class, but mostly Rev and I'm in platinum with it. Plenty of people in top 250 are displeased with the current state of mirage, and I see plenty of other players on the leaderboards in my games playing Mirage it so claiming that it is only played in low elo is flat out 100% incorrect. Just because the class relies on Portal in upper elos to fully exploit its kit doesn't magically make it fine, because as it turns out, **portal exists**. It's like saying "Oh if Firebrand couldn't spam boons on party members it wouldn't be played" well no shit sherlock, of course if you take away one of the best things from a spec it becomes less viable, what point are you even trying to make here lol?

 

The only thing you are correct on is the fact that the hot new soulbeast build is definitely overtuned. But the thing is, it isn't really badly designed. It just does too much damage for how much survival it has, and can thus be easily be nerfed with a numbers adjustment. Where you are wrong is in this odd assumption that because boonbeast is busted then mirage somehow is not busted? Additional cancer specs don't cancel each other out, they just add more cancer.

[viquing.8254]

>What you are talking about is ironically the very reason why mirage is overpowered. Because it doesn't have to choose between attacking or defense.

Because when you are evading something, you could use this evade to do a timing attack and conversely,

when you are using your shatter to defense (f3, f4 or blind) you can use them to time an attack and conversely,

when your are using blink and jaunt to evade a melee burst you can also use it to gap closer attack.

In high play, attacking don't mean pop an invul and rollface skillbar, it mean get the right window to cc/damage the opponent and it's rarely at the same time you have to defend and with his bad endurance regen, bad anti-CC uptime, bad dps (because contrary to PvE, clone die in PvP and if you use them to defense (like f4) you can't use them to attack.), mesmer **have** to choose bewteen attack and defense.

 

>Mirage has 15-20 options per any given situation, while other classes have 5-9.

Even if it's true, we do not care having 15-20 options when the guys with 5-9 option have the equivalent of 4 options in 1 skill when looking at effectiveness. If I have to do 4 more clic to do the same result of 1 clic, the 1 clic guys is clearly more efficient because he have way more time to think about map rotation and positionning.

 

> Just because the class relies on Portal in upper elos to fully exploit its kit doesn't magically make it fine, because as it turns out, portal exists. It's like saying "Oh if Firebrand couldn't spam boons on party members it wouldn't be played" well no kitten sherlock, of course if you take away one of the best things from a spec it becomes less viable, what point are you even trying to make here lol?

The point is maybe because portal have a 72 sec cd and FB boon came near every skills ?

It's fun to be usefull once 72 sec when other are usefull during entire game.

 

>Where you are wrong is in this odd assumption that because boonbeast is busted then mirage somehow is not busted?

When we talk about meta, we talk about a class effectiveness in the current environnement, so other class.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

If you are finding yourself useless in between portal CDs then you seriously need to consider the possibility that you have a gitgud problem and stop with this "My spec that nearly every top player has stated is busted is actually not busted because *insert mental gymnastics here*"

 

 

[viquing.8254]

>My spec that nearly every top player has stated is busted

Who ?

When nearly every top player didn't play mes you can do whatever mental gym you want it's far to be busted.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> What you are talking about is ironically the very reason why mirage is overpowered. **Because it doesn't have to choose between attacking or defense**, it is the mirage that can wait out the classes that are forced to make that choice and then punish their cooldowns, not the other way around.

 

>@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> ^

> I play every class, but **mostly Rev** and I'm in platinum with it.

[ChiefDrake.2917]

As others have mentioned, a class is only as OP as the player makes it. I know there are plenty of mesmers that are crazy good at what they do (to the point of being OP) but there are plenty who aren't. I'm a mirage, but I'm also a casual player, so in PvP I'm usually not hard to take down. It really just depends on the person.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"ChiefDrake.2917" said:

> As others have mentioned, a class is only as OP as the player makes it. I know there are plenty of mesmers that are crazy good at what they do (to the point of being OP) but there are plenty who aren't. I'm a mirage, but I'm also a casual player, so in PvP I'm usually not hard to take down. It really just depends on the person.

 

And there my friend lies the the secret to all things. A lot of players have a biased opinion, when it comes to their own skill level and very few know where we stand. That is in part due to ANET's failure to implement a valid measure of player skill. In WoW we had the arena, people were making their own team, picking their teammates and practicing for months to work together. Here the only metric you have is the PvP leaderboard, where you get teamed up with 4 other players (you have the option of picking only 1 of those 4 as your teammate to train with), and throws us into a disorganized mess that no1 explains how to play because you don't wanna tutor the guy that might be your enemy next match. How would you measure player skill in such environment? You can't!

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"ChiefDrake.2917" said:

> > As others have mentioned, a class is only as OP as the player makes it. I know there are plenty of mesmers that are crazy good at what they do (to the point of being OP) but there are plenty who aren't. I'm a mirage, but I'm also a casual player, so in PvP I'm usually not hard to take down. It really just depends on the person.

>

> And there my friend lies the the secret to all things. A lot of players have a biased opinion, when it comes to their own skill level and very few know where we stand. That is in part due to ANET's failure to implement a valid measure of player skill. In WoW we had the arena, people were making their own team, picking their teammates and practicing for months to work together. Here the only metric you have is the PvP leaderboard, where you get teamed up with 4 other players (you have the option of picking only 1 of those 4 as your teammate to train with), and throws us into a disorganized mess that no1 explains how to play because you don't wanna tutor the guy that might be your enemy next match. How would you measure player skill in such environment? You can't!

 

You can't measure skill level in a game where there are 9 different professions and other 18 unique specializations all differents each other...

 

If there was only 1 single profession with only a single build available you see who's better at the game based on personal skill.

 

But being too many professions, it means counterclasses are a thing.

 

So for example a thief and a dragonhunter can have the exact same level skill, but the dragonhunter counters the thief and has an advantage and will win 9 times out 10, I repeat considering same exact skill level.

 

Yesterday playing wvw with my hybrid mirage got whispered by an high rank reaper who I killed, he told me to hang myself because I am a kitten condi kitten.

Mine is one of the best 1vs1 duelist in the game, reaper is a team fighter profession who shines in 1vs1s only against noobs who doesn't kite shroud.

So who is the noob here? Me because I play a 1vs1 spec or him that expect to win 1vs1s with reaper while roaming being a team fighter and doesn't knowing his class role?

You can play whatever you want in roaming, but don't trash talk if you get beaten by a better duelist profession or player.

 

 

[Carighan.6758]

Let's be honest: Expecting class balance is something players ought to have learned **not** to do, after >6y.

 

It's just not something the game is built for or around. Class balance happens incidentally, not explicitly. I don't feel like the traits/skills were ever created after a design decision about gameplay either, they were just whatever stuck when endless amounts of ideas were thrown against a wall with no rhyme or reason.

[brappish.8715]

Learn.

To.

Fight.

A.

Mesmer.

 

(its really simple)

[ChiefDrake.2917]

Oh, I'm back with a brief tip that everyone probably knows but just in case, I'll mention it. :O

If a mesmer has a bunch of clones to get you confused, look for the one moving around the most-- that's the real deal.

 

Unless of course the mesmer is smart and stays still. But usually you can see one moving more erratically.

[TwiceDead.1963]

You're asking if Mesmer is OP on the Mesmer forums.

 

What kind of response do you think you'll get here exactly?

 

Probably the same response you'll get if you ask if Deadeyes are OP on the Thief forums.

[viquing.8254]

Not really, historically, mesmer forum is more about : holding the stick to be hit.

(clone death, shatter monogameplay, power is skill, ...)

But nice try.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its funny how long it took ppl to realize mirage is op. ofc im not included in this group.

[viquing.8254]

Its funny that in november 2018 there is always people who think mirage is op.

[Rizigmar.2681]

> @"brappish.8715" said:

> Learn.

> To.

> Fight.

> A.

> Mesmer.

>

> (its really simple)

 

I'll do you one better.

 

Someone.

Make.

A.

Video.

Tutorial.

How.

To.

Fight.

Mesmer.

To.

Show.

How.

Simple.

It.

Is.

Challenge Mode - Do it on classes that aren't Mirage/Thief/Soulbeast in WvW.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Rizigmar.2681" said:

> > @"brappish.8715" said:

> > Learn.

> > To.

> > Fight.

> > A.

> > Mesmer.

> >

> > (its really simple)

>

> I'll do you one better.

>

> Someone.

> Make.

> A.

> Video.

> Tutorial.

> How.

> To.

> Fight.

> Mesmer.

> To.

> Show.

> How.

> Simple.

> It.

> Is.

> Challenge Mode - Do it on classes that aren't Mirage/Thief/Soulbeast in WvW.

.

 

 

>Challenge Mode - Do it on classes that aren't Mirage/Thief/Soulbeast in WvW...

Really ?

 

WvW side : **TEAMFIGHT CLASS CAN'T WIN VERSUS 1v1 CLASS AND THIS WILL REMAIN AS LONG AS 1v1 CLASS AREN'T AS GOOD FOR TEAMFIGHT.** (and no the utility bot mesmer was since release isn't what I'm talking about.)

Stop fucking believe that a class with every skill strong aoe effects should win versus single target class in 1v1 ! 80% of WvW mourners are playing exotic builds or bus builds.

And even with this postulate, I'm sure you can find some good solo roamer build on classical bus class who can perform pretty well.

 

Video PvP about this is easy to find if you look at top streamers twitch and I haven't the time to find out the exact fight. if you are lazy just look at jawgeous AT's comments.

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Condi mirage is one of the top braindead skill less builds out there for the amount of damage they can produce so maybe thats the mirage you speak of thats OP

 

I used it when learning mirage myself, then moved away from it into my own non meta DPS build as I enjoyed some of the mechanics (moved from Daredevil)