narcx.3570 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @dchsknight.3042 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something needs to change with the class. So long as we have no means of generating energy without legend swap, the class will be stuck using a single utility and then autoattacking till weaponswap is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The spec also has serious lack of access to boons unless gaining access to Glint. This is what makes core rev such a nonstarter in most builds. You're supposed to be using each legend for their situational utility, but all we do right now is swap to a legend, use a single utility that empties our energy bar as we autoattack, then be forced to swap to another legend even if that other legend has marginal benefit for the current situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is particularly egregious with the staff weapon, which has such large costs on all its skills, two of them utterly mediocre (skills 2 and 4 are way too weak). Worse, staff's autoattack is anemic in DPS, and the rationale is that it offers healing, but the healing fragments spawned by the autoattack are absurdly undertuned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're talking about 300-400 hp per completed autoattack chain. That is nothing for placing such a massive penalty on the autoattack's DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All revenant power builds are weak for this reason. You've massively nerfed the autoattack DPS options of the revenant in PvE, and the skills that used to hit hard like unrelenting assault have been castrated and put on longer cooldowns because there was no split balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The easiest solution to bringing in PvE class balance is to do a balance pass on autoattack DPS across all class weapons to establish a baseline as a safety net, then look at individual keystone skills like unrelenting assault, gravedigger, maul, and bring those up to the level of currently competitive weapons like thief staff and guardian greatsword. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you use staff on a clear condition spec? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And all power builds are weak? You must not actually play Revenant. Power shiro is a beast... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to a lot of other Power builds, Power Shiro is a hindrance and you would be better bringing a Warrior or a DH > > > > > > > > > > > That's not saying it's bad, just worse than a lot of other power builds, and has been for a while now. > > > > > > > > > > > One of the biggest issues is, Power Rev folds under any type of condi pressure, and we are moving into (Probably) a condi/power Hybrid meta with the introduction of PoF and griever stats. > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of PoF, most of the new elite specs leave power shiro in the dirt. > > > > > > > > > > > Something to consider because the future for rev is pretty bleak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This... ^^^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason Shiro seems weak compared to War or DH is the lack of cleanse... It has nothing to do with their damage output or energy cost restrictions. If Shiro Rev's didn't have to avoid literally every incoming condibomb or instantly die, they would insanely destroy those other classes. I mean, when have you ever lost to a power War/DH 1v1? 0.o It's when you're in a team fight and a condi teef, giggling at his keyboard, steal bombs you from behind a pillar 1200 away that you feel weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it's only going to get worse for all revenant specs, not just power... PoF has so many new insane condi bomb builds, and our only defense against them is being indirectly nerfed by all the boon strip classes also being added. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm talking PvE, and no power rev doesn't even come close to those in DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power rev is doing miserably because of all the pvp related nerfs to their autoattack DPS, unrelenting assault's nerf to damage and cooldown, and the nerf to facet of nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who's letting Power Warrior's play PvE?!?! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A group that doesn't have the condi version for PS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power warrior may be bad DPS, but PS+ banners is still immense raid DPS that a power revenant doesn't even get close to matching. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A warrior of any PS variant is increasing the raid DPS by 25%+. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rev's aren't even competing for the might share support spot though, so that's a crazy comparison to try and make... > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you're so concerned with your group's composition that you're ruling out dps Revs, you should also automatically be ruling out power PS's... The gap between a power PS and a CPS or Condi Might Share Ele is much bigger than the difference between an ele/dh and a dps rev is. > > > > > > > > > > They're not competing for it because anet demolished glint over several patches, and PS warrior has gone untouched because nobody uses PS+banners in PvP, which is what they obviously balance around. If any spec should compete with warrior for might and fury sharing, it should bloody well be Herald considering it's the boon centric elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > And please let's not conflate all revenant DPS specs. Power revenant in gw2raid logs is doing just as abysmal as power warrior. Except power warrior still offers something with banners whereas revenants offers only a 225 ferocity aura, a far worse version of banner of discipline+empower allies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only change they made to Glint that "demolished" rev's was nerfing Natural Resonance... And Honestly, that had nothing to do with PvP. > > > > > > > > It also happened in the same patch that nerfed SoI. So I mean, with SoI losing it's ability to share stacks of boons, the chrono/PS/Rev meta was gone whether they nerfed Rev or not, since you now needed 4 slots just for the Quickness/Might uptime and Rev wasn't there for it's individual DPS anyways. > > > > > > > > And I can't speak to gw2raidlogs, but I assume that's a pretty inaccurate source for true benchmark numbers? As far as I've seen, power rev is a solid 9k above power war... But I mean, yeah, it's still a sub 30k benchmark so it's whatever. > > > > > > .....what the kitten? Benchmark numbers will never be as accurate as actual statistical analysis on raid logs. > > > > > > That's like saying Simcraft in WoW would be more accurate than looking at wowlogs. Raid logs show the average performance under actual raid scenarios of any given spec. > > > > > > And the nerfs that demolished rev started long before the nerf to facet of nature. > > > > > > 20%+ nerf to autoattacks. Same nerf for Unrelenting assault on top of increased cd, shifting a bit of that damage to sword 2 but it's a far worse trade anyways. These were all PvP derived nerfs. > > > > > > Facet of Nature nerf was a nerf specifically due to WvW (which is still pvp as much as people like to pretend it isn't), people were whining mesmers and revenants were stacking infinite resistance. > > > > Except combined statistical analysis also factors in all the mouth breathers playing that spec with bad mechanics and rotations. Whereas a benchmark shows you the highest threshold that a class can be pushed to. I'd take my max number to aim for instead of some mean number based on everyone from the good to the truly bad any day. > > > > Hearing, "Oh don't worry, 17k is actually okay for Cairn" is not what I aim to achieve when I actually get to dps instead of chrono/druiding. > > I can tell you have never used a logs site since the poster above me had to clue you into the fact you can look up percentiles. I straight up said originally that I'm not familiar with that site, but way to try and look cool by calling me out on something I already said. But now that I actually looked at that site, it shows Rev beating War (both power) by over 5k... Which is what I said originally before you lost your cool all over the forums. :expressionless: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @narcx.3570 said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @narcx.3570 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @dchsknight.3042 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something needs to change with the class. So long as we have no means of generating energy without legend swap, the class will be stuck using a single utility and then autoattacking till weaponswap is back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The spec also has serious lack of access to boons unless gaining access to Glint. This is what makes core rev such a nonstarter in most builds. You're supposed to be using each legend for their situational utility, but all we do right now is swap to a legend, use a single utility that empties our energy bar as we autoattack, then be forced to swap to another legend even if that other legend has marginal benefit for the current situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is particularly egregious with the staff weapon, which has such large costs on all its skills, two of them utterly mediocre (skills 2 and 4 are way too weak). Worse, staff's autoattack is anemic in DPS, and the rationale is that it offers healing, but the healing fragments spawned by the autoattack are absurdly undertuned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're talking about 300-400 hp per completed autoattack chain. That is nothing for placing such a massive penalty on the autoattack's DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All revenant power builds are weak for this reason. You've massively nerfed the autoattack DPS options of the revenant in PvE, and the skills that used to hit hard like unrelenting assault have been castrated and put on longer cooldowns because there was no split balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The easiest solution to bringing in PvE class balance is to do a balance pass on autoattack DPS across all class weapons to establish a baseline as a safety net, then look at individual keystone skills like unrelenting assault, gravedigger, maul, and bring those up to the level of currently competitive weapons like thief staff and guardian greatsword. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you use staff on a clear condition spec? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And all power builds are weak? You must not actually play Revenant. Power shiro is a beast... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compared to a lot of other Power builds, Power Shiro is a hindrance and you would be better bringing a Warrior or a DH > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not saying it's bad, just worse than a lot of other power builds, and has been for a while now. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the biggest issues is, Power Rev folds under any type of condi pressure, and we are moving into (Probably) a condi/power Hybrid meta with the introduction of PoF and griever stats. > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of PoF, most of the new elite specs leave power shiro in the dirt. > > > > > > > > > > > > Something to consider because the future for rev is pretty bleak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This... ^^^ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason Shiro seems weak compared to War or DH is the lack of cleanse... It has nothing to do with their damage output or energy cost restrictions. If Shiro Rev's didn't have to avoid literally every incoming condibomb or instantly die, they would insanely destroy those other classes. I mean, when have you ever lost to a power War/DH 1v1? 0.o It's when you're in a team fight and a condi teef, giggling at his keyboard, steal bombs you from behind a pillar 1200 away that you feel weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it's only going to get worse for all revenant specs, not just power... PoF has so many new insane condi bomb builds, and our only defense against them is being indirectly nerfed by all the boon strip classes also being added. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm talking PvE, and no power rev doesn't even come close to those in DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power rev is doing miserably because of all the pvp related nerfs to their autoattack DPS, unrelenting assault's nerf to damage and cooldown, and the nerf to facet of nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who's letting Power Warrior's play PvE?!?! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A group that doesn't have the condi version for PS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power warrior may be bad DPS, but PS+ banners is still immense raid DPS that a power revenant doesn't even get close to matching. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A warrior of any PS variant is increasing the raid DPS by 25%+. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rev's aren't even competing for the might share support spot though, so that's a crazy comparison to try and make... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you're so concerned with your group's composition that you're ruling out dps Revs, you should also automatically be ruling out power PS's... The gap between a power PS and a CPS or Condi Might Share Ele is much bigger than the difference between an ele/dh and a dps rev is. > > > > > > > > > > > > They're not competing for it because anet demolished glint over several patches, and PS warrior has gone untouched because nobody uses PS+banners in PvP, which is what they obviously balance around. If any spec should compete with warrior for might and fury sharing, it should bloody well be Herald considering it's the boon centric elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > And please let's not conflate all revenant DPS specs. Power revenant in gw2raid logs is doing just as abysmal as power warrior. Except power warrior still offers something with banners whereas revenants offers only a 225 ferocity aura, a far worse version of banner of discipline+empower allies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only change they made to Glint that "demolished" rev's was nerfing Natural Resonance... And Honestly, that had nothing to do with PvP. > > > > > > > > > > It also happened in the same patch that nerfed SoI. So I mean, with SoI losing it's ability to share stacks of boons, the chrono/PS/Rev meta was gone whether they nerfed Rev or not, since you now needed 4 slots just for the Quickness/Might uptime and Rev wasn't there for it's individual DPS anyways. > > > > > > > > > > And I can't speak to gw2raidlogs, but I assume that's a pretty inaccurate source for true benchmark numbers? As far as I've seen, power rev is a solid 9k above power war... But I mean, yeah, it's still a sub 30k benchmark so it's whatever. > > > > > > > > .....what the kitten? Benchmark numbers will never be as accurate as actual statistical analysis on raid logs. > > > > > > > > That's like saying Simcraft in WoW would be more accurate than looking at wowlogs. Raid logs show the average performance under actual raid scenarios of any given spec. > > > > > > > > And the nerfs that demolished rev started long before the nerf to facet of nature. > > > > > > > > 20%+ nerf to autoattacks. Same nerf for Unrelenting assault on top of increased cd, shifting a bit of that damage to sword 2 but it's a far worse trade anyways. These were all PvP derived nerfs. > > > > > > > > Facet of Nature nerf was a nerf specifically due to WvW (which is still pvp as much as people like to pretend it isn't), people were whining mesmers and revenants were stacking infinite resistance. > > > > > > Except combined statistical analysis also factors in all the mouth breathers playing that spec with bad mechanics and rotations. Whereas a benchmark shows you the highest threshold that a class can be pushed to. I'd take my max number to aim for instead of some mean number based on everyone from the good to the truly bad any day. > > > > > > Hearing, "Oh don't worry, 17k is actually okay for Cairn" is not what I aim to achieve when I actually get to dps instead of chrono/druiding. > > > > I can tell you have never used a logs site since the poster above me had to clue you into the fact you can look up percentiles. > > I straight up said originally that I'm not familiar with that site, but way to try and look cool by calling me out on something I already said. But now that I actually looked at that site, it shows Rev beating War (both power) by over 5k... Which is what I said originally before you lost your cool all over the forums. :expressionless: > Um, that 5k power rev advantage is actually worse than the total raid contribution of the power warrior since those power warrior logs involve banners and PS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnang.1879 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Aren't most classes auto 1 unless off cd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Samnang.1879 said: > Aren't most classes auto 1 unless off cd? Not ele, not engineer. Ranger is also not too reliant on autoattack on axe/torch condi builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdeity.5847 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Eros.6801 said: > Can you guys just please stop complaining ? Recently there's been alot of crisis going on about rev already, we know the class is lackluster but seriously the more you complain the more dissapoint you will get in return. > > I agreed you have the point but it is useless to keep this going, just play the class normally and hope for a change, those complaining threads ( no offense ) will not make the dev fix it faster but only keep new players stay away from this class faster. > > Btw whats with the tittle ? a problem the community ignores is a problem that is never fixed. if you have problem with the community caring about things perhaps you should leave it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glacial.9516 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I know this may not be the best solution and it may not even fix the problem (and has probably been suggested before), but what if we could equip the same legend in both slots? Effectively working like weapon swap with the same weapons in both? Your cooldowns wouldn't change but you'd get all of the benefits of a legend swap whilst using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amityel.5324 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 gl with that in pvp........only one heal you would be dead all the time ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Amityel.5324 said: > gl with that in pvp........only one heal you would be dead all the time ;-) GL with that anywhere, not just PvP. Revenant heals heal for about half what other professions heal for and have longer cooldowns precisely because of the assumption that we have two heals total from two legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractured.3928 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > gl with that in pvp........only one heal you would be dead all the time ;-) > > GL with that anywhere, not just PvP. > > Revenant heals heal for about half what other professions heal for and have longer cooldowns precisely because of the assumption that we have two heals total from two legends. Is it half? Feels like less most the time. I'm bad though haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Fractured.3928 said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > gl with that in pvp........only one heal you would be dead all the time ;-) > > > > GL with that anywhere, not just PvP. > > > > Revenant heals heal for about half what other professions heal for and have longer cooldowns precisely because of the assumption that we have two heals total from two legends. > > Is it half? Feels like less most the time. I'm bad though haha. In fractals if for some reason mobs choose to ignore me while I popped glint heal, it's RIP. It's a whopping 30 sec cd heal, while shiro heal also heals for nothing. Meanwhile my thief has a <20 sec cd channel vigor that virtually heals his full HP and regenerates endurance for more dodges on top. Revenant and necro have the weakest self healing in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusanyu.4057 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Be smart about when you use your skills the high energy ones should be saved for after you have been in the fight and your power bar is at max. one of the tough parts of rev is energy juggling. The trick is play the class as it was designed and not the way DPS hungry, Meta Howler monkies think it should be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidel.2057 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 The problem is that with many skills Energy seems an advantage, allowing for skill usage detatched from cooldowns. However sometimes it seems an obstacle, mainly when energy cost is huge or skills have energy costs and cooldowns. See Kalla: what's the advantage of having energy? Every skill has its own cooldown, energy on Kalla is completely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euthymias.7984 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 There are many, MANY problems with the profession. Energy has so few traits that interact with it in a meaningful way. The few that do interact with energy only work above/below a threshold and beyond Equilibrium barely do much of anything significant. The COSTS are also intrinsically overbearing for some cases and need to be re-evaluated if they aren't just going to remove the weapon-skill costs. When it comes to healing, most of them have some sort of condition to maximize the effect of it. * Glint NEEDS you to be getting struck by big damage * Mallyx needs you to be condi-bombed and have resistance to avoid the negative effect of poison * Shiro needs you to hit stuff that doesn't have a block/reflect up * Only Jalis acts "normally" but it doesn't cleanse before healing, leaving it susceptible to poison The base heal/duration for 2 of the 3 have been lowered due to how """powerful""" they were, but were never compensated in any form. We also have no real way to cleanse condis compared to most other professions who have entire traitlines or utilities that can support them in that way. All we can do is apply resistance and pray that its not stripped/corrupted, and even that requires taking a very specific kit to address the issue in any form. Condi-mitigation from damage reduction doesnt save anyone in the long run either - it just delays the inevitable without proper cleanse to follow. Overall Damage is awful on the power side since they gutted the auto attack damage, precision strike (which is still bad since multiple targets will mess it up), Unrelenting Assault (same issue as Prec. Strike), and all staff skills. In particular, my biggest gripe with Sword is that if its supposed to be great at focusing down an enemy, why should it become intrinsically weaker when another is near your target, even if its an AI one? Something really needs to be done, but I have exceptional doubt that the "balance" patch that's coming will address these issues. I fear we'll just be left behind again in the face of all the changes to come without anything addressing our core problems, like always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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