Staff Auto Attack Should Grant a Small Amount of Energy

[Jarvis.9540]

I really want to love this weapon, and for the most part I do. However, in competitive scenarios, staff only ever sees play for it's +5 skill to demolish breakbars. I feel like if it were modified to give energy back in its auto attack (maybe just on the third swing), it could be used to help maintain upkeep skills a bit longer. This would make it a great weapon for support which is really what seems to be the intention of the weapon in the first place. Thoughts?

[Justine.6351]

It already is a great weapon.

 

Skill 2 is hilt bash combined with maul

Skill 3 is shield stance on half the CD with blinding bolts

Skill 4 is cleansing wave with half the recharge and a blast

Skill 5 is whirlwind attack combined with staggering blow

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hilt_Bash

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maul_(ranger_greatsword_skill)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_Stance

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staggering_Blow

[Dace.8173]

> @"Jarvis.9540" said:

> I really want to love this weapon, and for the most part I do. However, in competitive scenarios, staff only ever sees play for it's +5 skill to demolish breakbars. I feel like if it were modified to give energy back in its auto attack (maybe just on the third swing), it could be used to help maintain upkeep skills a bit longer. This would make it a great weapon for support which is really what seems to be the intention of the weapon in the first place. Thoughts?

 

Yes, it is a support/utility weapon and it is actually a great weapon, as @"Justine.6351" has pointed out. It has more going for it than Surge of the Mists. I've found Warding Rift to be of great use in multiple situations.

[idolin.2831]

Actually, Staff 3, 4 and 5 are all great skills on not too long cooldowns - @"Justine.6351" pointed that out. I don't use Staff 2 that much since it's melee and I'm used to kiting my opponents, but I do use it on people who're rezzing to get the CC and interrupt the rez. Overall it's good enough already.

[Kain Francois.4328]

I actually mentioned this exact idea in another thread.

 

Staff currently fills the niche of a utility weapon one frequently swaps to in order to cc. However it's not exactly useful in healing builds, and it's completely gimped in condi builds.

 

By granting user extra energy, it increases its flexiblity by opening up new strategies for each Legend, without power creeping the damage output. For Jalis it means you can spam Rite of Great Dwarf more, for Ventari is means more heal, for Mallyx it means you can actually afford to use Mallyx skills while waiting on wep swap, and for Shiro it potentially means someone can use Shiro's shadowstep or roll back easier.

 

Since Staff since its inception was marketed as a "support" weapon, I think granting more energy would be a lot more original than if it pulsed an aoe heal like most other healer staffs.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> I actually mentioned this exact idea in another thread.

>

> Staff currently fills the niche of a utility weapon one frequently swaps to in order to cc. However it's not exactly useful in healing builds, and it's completely kitten in condi builds.

>

> By granting user extra energy, it increases its flexiblity by opening up new strategies for each Legend, without power creeping the damage output. For Jalis it means you can spam Rite of Great Dwarf more, for Ventari is means more heal, for Mallyx it means you can actually afford to use Mallyx skills while waiting on wep swap, and for Shiro it potentially means someone can use Shiro's shadowstep or roll back easier.

>

> Since Staff since its inception was marketed as a "support" weapon, I think granting more energy would be a lot more original than if it pulsed an aoe heal like most other healer staffs.

 

It is already a great weapon. This weapon doesn't need to be changed for anything. What would address the problems you listed is fixing other aspects of Revenant so that people aren't trying to rely on staff to do **ALL THE THINGS**. I don't get why people keep insisting that a weapon that already does its job amazingly well should be touched instead of just asking for other aspects to be fixed instead.

[lordbachus.6091]

All skills should add 1 energy/mob they hit...

Maybe trough a trait ?

This will allow people to stay in the same legend much much longer

And this is one of the most heard complaints for the profession

[Set.7461]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone on the energy portion but disagree with the overall consensus that it's a "great" weaponset. I think it's good, but not great. I mainly have 2 issues with Staff.

 

1. the healing orbs at the end of the auto-attack chain. I'm not a fan of ANET's design philosophy of adding platforming elements to GW2. The SAB event, picking up orbs, picking up ventari's fragments, mines, etc. These orbs are just that. Platforming elements that, while fine in PvE, are useless in PvP/WvW and only acts as filler. Simplify it. Make it an AoE heal. It doesn't even have to be a large AoE. 180 radius or something. It's not difficult to pick them up, it's just more work for the sake of more work.

2. Staff 2 should have the design philosophy with all other rev weapon 2 skills, the bread and butter of our rotation in between auto-attacks. Spamming Staff 2 when your enemy is not casting a skill leaves a noticeable aftercast that breaks the flow of combat. I'd like to keep the flipover, Debilitating Slam as it is while the enemy is casting, but make it available when the enemy is not casting. Reduce the damage by 25-50% and inflict cripple or slow instead of daze. Right now, Punishing Sweep is just a golf swing while you take a moment to admire your work(or lack of).

 

As far as having a weapon refill energy, I'm against that because it will make staff even more mandatory and it's already a staple in most builds. The energy issue is a deep class problem and while charged mists is a start, I want it to be address in traitlines to promote build diversity. To compare, Thief has 4 out of the 7 traitlines that have initiative gaining traits. Shadow Arts, Acrobatics, Trickery, and Deadeye. Rev have 1, Invocation. I often hear the argument that Legend swap is a free 50 energy baked into the class but I want to add a caveat. You can literally lose energy since it resets to 50 regardless if your energy is higher or lower. In theory, and practice, you will find yourself losing energy on legend swap. And after the removal of Equilibrium, this loss of energy is not compensated. Adding 50 energy to your "pool" regardless of energy level would be a change I'd like to see but I don't know where ANET wants to take the class.

[Dace.8173]

> @"lordbachus.6091" said:

> All skills should add 1 energy/mob they hit...

> Maybe trough a trait ?

> This will allow people to stay in the same legend much much longer

> And this is one of the most heard complaints for the profession

 

You're supposed to be changing Legends often. That's the playstyle. If you want to sit in one Legend longer then you need to manage your Energy accordingly.

 

 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Staff is fine. The only realistic buff it could use is faster cast times on 2 or 4. Many people in this thread are judging Staff from a PvE perspective, which is bad because PvE balance will always be out of wack due to the fact that monster AI is dumb as rocks.

 

Take a look at the viable PvP ( Conquest + WvW ) builds for Revenant.

 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Revenant

 

Standard Shiro Herald - uses staff

Herald Hammer backliner - uses staff

Ventari - uses staff

Power Renegade - uses staff

 

Those are the 4 most used builds from a PvP standpoint and all of them use staff 2nd hand. Staff has excellent utility: Block + decent auto attack + CC + Condi cleanse + mobility + evade all on the same weapon. Who cares if it isn't PvE Raid maxDPS minmax.

 

 

 

[lordbachus.6091]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"lordbachus.6091" said:

> > All skills should add 1 energy/mob they hit...

> > Maybe trough a trait ?

> > This will allow people to stay in the same legend much much longer

> > And this is one of the most heard complaints for the profession

>

> You're supposed to be changing Legends often. That's the playstyle. If you want to sit in one Legend longer then you need to manage your Energy accordingly.

>

>

Well, thats because thats currently the most efficient way..

I would like a choice..between staying longer in a legend

This would work verr wel for specifi roles like healing..

 

Many of the open world pve meta builds work best when directly after changing switching upkeeps on

And then auto attacking and only using other skills when absolutely needed..

Something needs to chnage, making energy amanagement more engaging gives more options on how to play the class

 

As said, this is still one of the most heared complaints about Revenants gameplay

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"lordbachus.6091" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"lordbachus.6091" said:

> > > All skills should add 1 energy/mob they hit...

> > > Maybe trough a trait ?

> > > This will allow people to stay in the same legend much much longer

> > > And this is one of the most heard complaints for the profession

> >

> > You're supposed to be changing Legends often. That's the playstyle. If you want to sit in one Legend longer then you need to manage your Energy accordingly.

> >

> >

> Well, thats because thats currently the most efficient way..

> I would like a choice..between staying longer in a legend

> This would work verr wel for specifi roles like healing..

>

> Many of the open world pve meta builds work best when directly after changing switching upkeeps on

> And then auto attacking and only using other skills when absolutely needed..

> Something needs to chnage, making energy amanagement more engaging gives more options on how to play the class

>

> As said, this is still one of the most heared complaints about Revenants gameplay

>

 

You have a choice to stay in a Legend longer. It just requires you to manage your Energy accordingly. I've been in situations in PvP where I've found it advantageous to remain in Glint than to switch to Shiro. Sometimes the boons I'm spamming are doing a good enough job, sometimes I just want to be able to run faster as I move between objectives, and sometimes I feel like I may need to pop a huge instant heal. If I make that choice then I have to manage my abilities accordingly. Maybe I don't use some of my weapon abilities nearly as often as I would when I'm constantly swapping. Or maybe I cut back on the number of upkeep abilities I have going so that there is very little, to no drain on my Energy. I have that choice. There is no way you can say you lack the choice because you are constantly having to make choices on how you are going to manage your abilities. This isn't like I'm a Ranger and I'm just shooting a constant barrage of non-stop arrows. If you manage your Energy properly you typically find that you have it when you need it. What you are asking for is not the ability to chose but for Energy management to be made easier.

 

Also, just because people complain about it doesn't mean they are right. I could start talking about player complaints about professions and weapons in PvP being too powerful and thus are in need of nerfing. I can highlight how some of those complaints are L2P issues. I could also highlight how when some of those complaints were listened to, the profession or weapon that was being complained about suffered or was rendered useless. So, just because people are complaining doesn't mean it's a point that should be considered. If all you have to counter an argument is people are complaining then it's not really an argument worth considering.

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Staff is fine. The only realistic buff it could use is faster cast times on 2 or 4. Many people in this thread are judging Staff from a PvE perspective, which is bad because PvE balance will always be out of wack due to the fact that monster AI is dumb as rocks.

>

> Take a look at the viable PvP ( Conquest + WvW ) builds for Revenant.

>

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Revenant

>

> Standard Shiro Herald - uses staff

> Herald Hammer backliner - uses staff

> Ventari - uses staff

> Power Renegade - uses staff

>

> Those are the 4 most used builds from a PvP standpoint and all of them use staff 2nd hand. Staff has excellent utility: Block + decent auto attack + CC + Condi cleanse + mobility + evade all on the same weapon. Who cares if it isn't PvE Raid maxDPS minmax.

>

>

>

 

Sounds like staff needs to be nerfed!

[otto.5684]

I will be happy if the AA just deals more damage. They can remove the heal balls anyway since these are useless, and buff AA by like 10-15%.

 

And while we are at it, skill 2 needs a buff in PvE too.

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> I will be happy if the AA just deals more damage. They can remove the heal balls anyway since these are useless, and buff AA by like 10-15%.

>

> And while we are at it, skill 2 needs a buff in PvE too.

 

 

[Fade.5904]

I'd prefer if staff auto 3 had a small evade.

Filler traits like Draconic Fortitude could be changed to something interesting like 'gain X energy when evading an attack'

[messiah.1908]

staff which is great weapon design to support your main weapon choice (needs bit few tweaks)

 

the orbs seem to be useless as you cannot control who pick them up and when and bit unseen . thus only viable in pve or pvp 1v1 scenarios.

 

check guard mace AA heal around as easy as it gets. thus i would give the third AA aoe regeneration proc for 2 sec. the trait from salvation line Tranquil benediction i would change to give swiftness while you gain regen and reduce dmg by 10% while having regen. and also increase dmg by 10%

 

Debilitating Slam - is nice ability but i wish it could be longer as i need to prepare it with Punishing Sweep first

 

Warding Rift - should also reflect projectiles

 

Renewing Wave - reduce activation time to 0.5 sec

 

 

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Fade.5904" said:

> I'd prefer if staff auto 3 had a small evade.

> Filler traits like Draconic Fortitude could be changed to something interesting like 'gain X energy when evading an attack'

 

I think an evade on the auto chain would break momentum. Not everyone is going to want to evade and sometimes it is better to maintain pressure with your auto chain than it is to hit and back off hit and then back off. The only logical place for an evade would be Renewing Wave but you also get a second of evade when you are using Surging Mists.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Fade.5904" said:

> > I'd prefer if staff auto 3 had a small evade.

> > Filler traits like Draconic Fortitude could be changed to something interesting like 'gain X energy when evading an attack'

>

> I think an evade on the auto chain would break momentum. Not everyone is going to want to evade and sometimes it is better to maintain pressure with your auto chain than it is to hit and back off hit and then back off.

 

I think he meant it alike to ranger GS autochain having evasion on it's third skill (you still attack normally it's just that during the animation if anything hits you its "evaded" instead of damage

[Noha.3749]

Since staff is used in almost every revenant build... buffing it just a little would probably make a world of difference for revenants overall!

 

I like the suggestions you mentioned about:

 

Reflect on 3

Shorter casttime for 4

Longer "dash" on 5

 

Id like to replace the healingorbs from staff auto with say.. lifestealing orbs that shoots out on the enemy? would be great vs professions with alot of blocks and stuff since lifesteal passes through block.

 

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Noha.3749" said:

> Since staff is used in almost every revenant build... buffing it just a little would probably make a world of difference for revenants overall!

>

> Id like to replace the healingorbs from staff auto with say.. lifestealing orbs that shoots out on the enemy? would be great vs professions with alot of blocks and stuff since lifesteal passes through block.

>

 

What about diferent effect per Legend on use? Ventari remains the same but Malyx get little condi, Shiro, vulnerability, etc

[Noha.3749]

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Noha.3749" said:

> > Since staff is used in almost every revenant build... buffing it just a little would probably make a world of difference for revenants overall!

> >

> > Id like to replace the healingorbs from staff auto with say.. lifestealing orbs that shoots out on the enemy? would be great vs professions with alot of blocks and stuff since lifesteal passes through block.

> >

>

> What about diferent effect per Legend on use? Ventari remains the same but Malyx get little condi, Shiro, vulnerability, etc

 

Dont take my words for anything though, im newb at revenant but yeah, IMO it would be cool and give revenants a slight buff overall since its THE utilityweapon of the profession.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Jarvis.9540" said:

> I really want to love this weapon, and for the most part I do. However, in competitive scenarios, staff only ever sees play for it's +5 skill to demolish breakbars. I feel like if it were modified to give energy back in its auto attack (maybe just on the third swing), it could be used to help maintain upkeep skills a bit longer. This would make it a great weapon for support which is really what seems to be the intention of the weapon in the first place. Thoughts?

 

If you really want to make staff viable, it needs something like a trait that either increases it's baseline damage or something off-the-wall-cool like a trait that changes all of the orbs it drops into pulsing ground aoe's or like mist-charged-land-mines that explode on contact or something. Or just give it the trident treatment, where the skills change based on your stance (this would be a nightmare for WvW/sPvP players tho who depend on staff's condi cleanse/mobility/quick-on-demand-cc regardless of their stance tho).

 

Adding energy regeneration to the staff wouldn't do anything to increase it's dps output since none of it's skills amount to a dps increase over just auto-attacking with an active upkeep--and you already have more than enough energy to channel your upkeep skill while AA'ing for 10 seconds. As for support builds, I'm sorry, but adding any form of energy regeneration while camping a single legend undermines the entire core design of Revenant, which is to plan your energy and skill-usage around legend swaps. I get that being able to just camp ventari and spam heals all day while your staff gives you double the energy regeneration would be as strong as it is lazy, but that's not really the Rev's design. Maybe a future elite spec will revolve around using a single legend like some sort of reverse Weaver, but I kinda hope not. :bleep_bloop:

[Dace.8173]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Fade.5904" said:

> > > I'd prefer if staff auto 3 had a small evade.

> > > Filler traits like Draconic Fortitude could be changed to something interesting like 'gain X energy when evading an attack'

> >

> > I think an evade on the auto chain would break momentum. Not everyone is going to want to evade and sometimes it is better to maintain pressure with your auto chain than it is to hit and back off hit and then back off.

>

> I think he meant it alike to ranger GS autochain having evasion on it's third skill (you still attack normally it's just that during the animation if anything hits you its "evaded" instead of damage

 

I've never played Ranger with a gs so I'm not familiar with that. To be honest I only really like GS on Guardian and Mesmer.

 

> @"Noha.3749" said:

> Since staff is used in almost every revenant build... buffing it just a little would probably make a world of difference for revenants overall!

>

> I like the suggestions you mentioned about:

>

> Reflect on 3

> Shorter casttime for 4

> Longer "dash" on 5

>

> Id like to replace the healingorbs from staff auto with say.. lifestealing orbs that shoots out on the enemy? would be great vs professions with alot of blocks and stuff since lifesteal passes through block.

>

 

Yeah, no. What would improve Revenant would be to make it less dependant on a single weapon. We shouldn't be finding ways to make Revenant even more dependent on a single weapon. We should be pushing for ways to make the other weapons carry their own weight so that build diversity actually increases. It should have never been the case that staff gets used in so many builds.

 

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Noha.3749" said:

> > Since staff is used in almost every revenant build... buffing it just a little would probably make a world of difference for revenants overall!

> >

> > Id like to replace the healingorbs from staff auto with say.. lifestealing orbs that shoots out on the enemy? would be great vs professions with alot of blocks and stuff since lifesteal passes through block.

> >

>

> What about diferent effect per Legend on use? Ventari remains the same but Malyx get little condi, Shiro, vulnerability, etc

 

This is still a bad idea as it will limit build diversity. On the one weapon that has it, we either have a case where the additional effects are all but worthless or the additional effects mean running another Legend is a bad idea. There would also be less incentive to use a Legend in any way other than what that bonus does for you, as you would be hampering your build if you were not gaining that extra effect to its fullest.

 

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"Jarvis.9540" said:

> > I really want to love this weapon, and for the most part I do. However, in competitive scenarios, staff only ever sees play for it's +5 skill to demolish breakbars. I feel like if it were modified to give energy back in its auto attack (maybe just on the third swing), it could be used to help maintain upkeep skills a bit longer. This would make it a great weapon for support which is really what seems to be the intention of the weapon in the first place. Thoughts?

>

> If you really want to make staff viable, it needs something like a trait that either increases it's baseline damage or something off-the-wall-cool like a trait that changes all of the orbs it drops into pulsing ground aoe's or like mist-charged-land-mines that explode on contact or something. Or just give it the trident treatment, where the skills change based on your stance (this would be a nightmare for WvW/sPvP players tho who depend on staff's condi cleanse/mobility/quick-on-demand-cc regardless of their stance tho).

>

> Adding energy regeneration to the staff wouldn't do anything to increase it's dps output since none of it's skills amount to a dps increase over just auto-attacking with an active upkeep--and you already have more than enough energy to channel your upkeep skill while AA'ing for 10 seconds. As for support builds, I'm sorry, but adding any form of energy regeneration while camping a single legend undermines the entire core design of Revenant, which is to plan your energy and skill-usage around legend swaps. I get that being able to just camp ventari and spam heals all day while your staff gives you double the energy regeneration would be as strong as it is lazy, but that's not really the Rev's design. Maybe a future elite spec will revolve around using a single legend like some sort of reverse Weaver, but I kinda hope not. :bleep_bloop:

 

I have to say that I agree with your second paragraph but I still say that tacking on Legend based abilities for weapons does us no favors.

[Kain Francois.4328]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> If you really want to make staff viable, it needs something like a trait that either increases it's baseline damage or something off-the-wall-cool like a trait that changes all of the orbs it drops into pulsing ground aoe's or like mist-charged-land-mines that explode on contact or something

 

This sounds so cool.

 

They could make it the ideal power weapon against large hitboxes, giving both Sword and Staff a viable use in PvE meta.