Winds of Disenchantment nerfed

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

First off even though I disagree and felt bad about the changes, thank you for reaching out and providing some insight into why you changed it. That is something I and everyone else really appreciates.

 

Do you think perhaps the nerf was a bit too much, though, without compensating the ability in some way? You talk of allowing for counterplay but the animation already has a large cast time and an obvious animation. The counterplay was already there by being aware of the enemy and moving off when seeing the cast animation. It can even be interrupted by focused CC. Do you think that perhaps we might see something like adjustment to cooldown, say from 90 seconds to 60 seconds? It was a heavy nerf with no compensation, the skill is considerably weaker now.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

I wonder, why did you just nerf it? You could at least give us some trade off or balanced it more, e.g. you could also lower the size of bubble by like 20-33%, make cast 1/2 second and lower CD to 60 seconds maybe. I remember what you did in the past to Arc Divider, Shield Bash and Head Butt. It was overnerf with no trade off again and power berserker is now obsolete. Those berserker nerfs should be reverted as now we also have PoF elite specs. Sorry for bit offtopic, but I wanted to put it in one message.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

> @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

> >

> > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

> >

> > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

>

> When you talk about counterplay, what was the thought process behind giving deadeyes shadow meld? Revealed was intended to be a counter to stealth, why would you give a counter to a counter? How many counterplays do you intend to make?

 

I think if I could sum up one of the main issues within the balance team is the complete lack of communication with the community that plays the game. It speaks volumes that someone has to make a thread on the official forum to ask why they did something and get a random response from someone "Oh this is why we did it....".

 

It feels like it should be the opposite. Hey guys what are your concerns? What are your ideas about balance? What are your suggestions? And THEN the team makes a balance patch or change. In this way you are asking for feedback from the community BEFORE making the change not AFTER.

 

More communication, 2 way communication not 1 way, would be a great way to improve the balance patch cadence, game impact and overall satisfaction of the WvW community.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

So you decided to remove it as a matter of contention so that people can now easily "wait it out", it's a skill that takes 1.5 seconds to even wind up, it now takes an additional second to even pulse. We even have to be in mele range to use it. All this for a paltry 5 second aoe. By this logic I should get 2.5 seconds of warning that a deadeye, or mesmer is going to 1 shot me from stealth (stealth...another very powerful effect), or any aoe's max length should be 5 seconds because that halts my mele combat. These changes would make some sense if this was a low CD skill, or a ranged skill, or a skill that had a very small wind up but it's not... This nerf is very frustrating, we finally had a purpose in the zerg again.

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

> >

> > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

> >

> > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

>

> So you decided to remove it as a matter of contention so that people can now easily "wait it out", it's a skill that takes 1.5 seconds to even wind up, it now takes an additional second to even pulse. We even have to be in mele range to use it. All this for a paltry 5 second aoe. By this logic I should get 2.5 seconds of warning that a deadeye, or mesmer is going to 1 shot me from stealth (stealth...another very powerful effect), or any aoe's max length should be 5 seconds because that halts my mele combat. These changes would make some sense if this was a low CD skill, or a ranged skill, or a skill that had a very small wind up but it's not... This nerf is very frustrating, we finally had a purpose in the zerg again.

 

Yeah agreed. Like the huge cast and tell isn't already giving people a chance to move off. I asked for a CD reduction but honestly I would be happier with a 1/2 cast time. Don't forget the Warrior has to use all cooldowns to deliver this bubble for a measly 4 seconds of boon strip.

 

Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

[Tiawal.2351]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

You are right this time, that there was NO "opportunity for counterplay" at all before, and despite these changes (which may need further tweaking), there are still NO ways to quickly identify if that huge yellow bubble is friendly or not, especially with multiple of those on top of each other. Please change the color of enemy bubble to something clearly different. The time it takes to identify darker yellow from brighter yellow, in a sea of effects all over the place, it's anything but instant.

 

I haven't played since the nerf, can't comment about the rest, but if you made it weaker allow to be used on a shorter cooldown. These things have to be tested in real WvW encounters, otherwise will end being way too OP, or simply useless.

[Tiawal.2351]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

>

> Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

 

That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.

Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

 

 

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"Tiawal.2351" said:

> > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> >

> > Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

>

> That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.

> Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

>

>

 

So it's certain death IF the very specific criteria are met: stability just so happens to be the boon that was stripped, you didn't dodge out of the bubble, you blew your stunbreaks and you are subject to CC focus.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying - SOME people in these highly specific circumstances are dying to the boon strip.

[Tiawal.2351]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > @"Tiawal.2351" said:

> > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > >

> > > Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

> >

> > That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.

> > Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

> >

> >

>

> So it's certain death IF the very specific criteria are met: stability just so happens to be the boon that was stripped, you didn't dodge out of the bubble, you blew your stunbreaks and you are subject to CC focus.

>

> Ok, I see what you're saying - SOME people in these highly specific circumstances are dying to the boon strip.

 

First is about positioning, but we can't ask devs to balance that. Then, we must risk and clash, that means both placing bubbles and avoiding them, and these are killers (though mostly indirectly, but so is CC and damage, they must be focused and be plenty of them timed well).

It's fine that we are dying to boon strip, that's not the problem, but making it possible to both land that bubble skill and allow ways to escape it -- and make it both possible, as in "balanced".

[Colly.4073]

Roaming has been killed off, class balance is an absolute joke, server linking is being handled by a 3 year old, desert borderlands still exist.

 

If your expecting anything from the long overdue alliance system then your expecting too much!!

 

This game is solely focussed on PVE and how much money they can make.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Colly.4073" said:

> Roaming has been killed off, class balance is an absolute joke, server linking is being handled by a 3 year old, desert borderlands still exist.

>

> If your expecting anything from the long overdue alliance system then your expecting too much!!

>

> This game is solely focussed on PVE and how much money they can make.

 

Roamers still exist plenty

 

Class balance is pretty okay, with the few outliers as always. It's not black and white, if you believe it's an absolute joke then hey, you do you. Nothing too out of line for WvW.

 

What gives you that impression? Do you hate your linked server so much? Do you understand how the system works?

 

Nice DBL meme though. Best map since gliding was introduced, okay map before.

[Colly.4073]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Colly.4073" said:

> > Roaming has been killed off, class balance is an absolute joke, server linking is being handled by a 3 year old, desert borderlands still exist.

> >

> > If your expecting anything from the long overdue alliance system then your expecting too much!!

> >

> > This game is solely focussed on PVE and how much money they can make.

>

> Roamers still exist plenty

>

> Class balance is pretty okay, with the few outliers as always. It's not black and white, if you believe it's an absolute joke then hey, you do you. Nothing too out of line for WvW.

>

> What gives you that impression? Do you hate your linked server so much? Do you understand how the system works?

>

> Nice DBL meme though. Best map since gliding was introduced, okay map before.

 

Roaming is definitely dead unless your happy running into +5 teams who will gladly gank you and throw siege on your corpse.

 

Server re-linking is as bad as it was before re-linking but with different wrapping paper and a fancy box, you think you have something new but after a while you still end up with the same stale boring matches. Isn't the system supposed to match your server against similar sized, similar ranked server's?

 

I have no isues about who we get linked with, The issue is with who we end up facing week after week. Outnumbered, timezone differences.....yada yada

[Miko.4158]

people are waiting out bubbles now.

or ignoring them.

it's nonsense if I stood in a red ring for 4 secs, I'd be deep fried.

not boon stripped.

 

when I play fb , I used to stop spamming boons , run, then start again.

now I might not as the rotations are quite complicated.

not going to lose alot,

 

[Miko.4158]

tags all the time call ' please switch to scourge'......or fb.

never seen switch to sb, now never will/

[nativity.3057]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"Acyk.9671" said:

> > they read forum + reddit i guess. couple devs watch a lot of gvgs too

>

> They PLAY the game. They even stream it, every week.

 

They do but really rarely run into organized guild groups (with or against). By judging stream time alone, they don't have an understanding of how good GvG and zerging differs. Most of the time they run havoc/objectives. They could get run over by one WoD. I've followed Anet tags recently in DBL and it was boring because I don't enjoy taking paper objectives and hope for enemy defense, but that's how they seem to play.

[Miko.4158]

the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

 

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

 

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

[reapex.8546]

> @"Ronnie Hu.1694" said:

> how do they know the balance of the wvw ? we hoD play from tier1 to tier4, i dont see anet play the wvw alot.

 

Anet doesn't play on one server only and hopefully you don't play 24/7, so the chances you will miss them is high. Also, they don't always use the Anet flag when they play.

[Vrath.1754]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

So now your consider about counter play? When you tune burst so high it's almost at CoD levels that it provide very little or limited counter play?

Are there too many cooks in the kitchen or just no body actually knows what's going on?

[googel.3278]

> @"Ronnie Hu.1694" said:

> how do they know the balance of the wvw ? we hoD play from tier1 to tier4, i dont see anet play the wvw alot.

 

they hide behind structures for the aura, or in most cases , hide in their base with that invulnerable thing. Probably dressing up fancy outfits and skins in wvw too

 

[Miko.4158]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

>

> The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

>

> It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

 

a million red rings is area denial.

because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.

> > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

> >

> > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

> >

> > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

>

> a million red rings is area denial.

> because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

>

 

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

[Miko.4158]

so how many scourges are there to sb's.

assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

which needs balance.

if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

come on people.

its not rocket science.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> so how many scourges are there to sb's.

> assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented

> which needs balance.

> if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....

> come on people.

> its not rocket science.

 

False dilemma.

 

Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

>

> To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

>

> The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

 

Was a good change!